INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'  (Read 3494 times)

Shelly

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • I love listening to music with Media Center!
OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« on: January 08, 2008, 01:37:29 pm »

This is an interesting article from Rollingstone:

"'The Death of High Fidelity: In the age of MP3s, sound quality is worse than ever"

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/17777619/the_death_of_high_fidelity/print

Logged

marko

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 8967
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2008, 02:22:38 pm »

This has been discussed in detail here over the years.
A sad but interesting read, kind of left me with a similar out-of-control feeling I get when I see petrol prices going up on a weekly basis!!

Alex B

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 10121
  • The Cosmic Bird
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2008, 02:51:12 pm »

That article tries to tie lossy audio compression and the loudness war phenomenon together. That is wrong. Lossy audio codecs try to be transparent and usually the result is as good (or as bad) as the original source when a modern audio codec and reasonable encoding settings are used.

A dynamic, correctly mastered classical recording sounds as good as the original when it is encoded using settings that are intended to be transparent. A badly mastered compressed modern pop album sounds as bad as the original after encoding. For example, LAME at VBR High may have minor problems with some specific sounds momentarily, but that is a totally different kind of quality problem than this loudness war.

Here is a Hydrogen Audio discussion about that RS article: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=60036

Anyway, it is good that the loudness war is explained once again. I can't understand why the music producers and record companies don't realise that they are destroying our cultural heritage. The situation is out of most artists' control.
Logged
The Cosmic Bird - a triple merger of galaxies: http://eso.org/public/news/eso0755

hit_ny

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3310
  • nothing more to say...
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2008, 03:59:31 pm »

Wow, this brought back memories of one of my very first posts on this board.

They URL of the article referenced in my post has changed, but its still on the site and can be found here
Logged

glynor

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 19608
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2008, 04:08:21 pm »

That article tries to tie lossy audio compression and the loudness war phenomenon together. That is wrong. Lossy audio codecs try to be transparent and usually the result is as good (or as bad) as the original source when a modern audio codec and reasonable encoding settings are used.

+++
Logged
"Some cultures are defined by their relationship to cheese."

Visit me on the Interweb Thingie: http://glynor.com/

llafriel

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2008, 05:49:39 pm »

Logged

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2008, 07:23:40 pm »

Thanks for the video clip link.  Very interesting.
Logged

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2008, 09:05:53 pm »

Well here's a question about dynamic range: it seems like when music is recorded at lower volumes, they never hit max volume.  So I end up with something I have to turn way up and that means more static and general noise.  Sometimes I feel like albums with high dynamic range aren't properly spread out so they are essentially just quiet.  Wouldn't points of ~20% and 80% be the best?  Today's albums seem like ~90% constant and albums touted for being great seem to be ~20% - ~50%.
Logged

Robo983

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 196
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2008, 08:12:02 am »

I tend to agree with Benn600 on this. Interesting timing of this thread as I have lived with my Sade Promise CD since the late 80s and always felt it was just too quiet so I always had to crank the volumn but never wanted to edit it because I thought the Aritist probably intended for it to have that intensity or dynamic range and I always just listened to it by it self. I just added that album to playlist with some artists from 2006-2007. I couldn't stand it anymore that the "loudness" was so far below the newer CDs. I had to add 9dB of gain to get them to where Sade's matched the newer CDs.

I didn't find this thread until after I did a volumn boost on Sade and thanks for the education as it certainly explains what I was seeing on the graphs of the 2006-2007 CD....they looked a lot like a white noise graph.
Logged

hit_ny

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3310
  • nothing more to say...
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2008, 08:47:17 am »

Logged

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2008, 10:29:19 am »

I've often heard instruments in songs and wished: "Why don't they blast that instrument?!"  It is true that volume seems to be about the same the whole way through.  So I feel like both camps are wrong.  I listen to very loud music from time to time and it doesn't sound very good when I have to turn the volume all the way up.  And then some songs you obviously can't turn it all the way up.

Of course when they record instruments is probably where the problem is.  Well, it probably goes deeper than that.  I guess I won't figure it out.

But the key is in reading/viewing all the stuff you guys have posted, one engineer said the goal was to record audio as quiet as possible and that was possible with so little noise on CDs.  I guess certain parts should be quieter than others but at some point, you have to max it out to take advantage of the volume!  Doesn't more sound information get recorded when you record it louder?  Either way: something is different because you can listen much louder with less background distortion from amplifier/etc.

Are amplifiers made that produce next to no volume at 100% volume?  I've always experienced fuzz and hiss (light) as the volume is raised.

MC has several helpful fields (intensity, etc).  Are there any that can help in noticing dynamic range?  I'd say to calculate it, it should take the loudest half of the song. . . then the lowest half of the song.  Perhaps simply average the results and you'd get a high average and a low average.  The difference of these two might give the dynamic range.

I would like to know what songs I have that have good dynamic range so I can listen and educate myself on the subject more.

For a long time I honestly thought that dynamic range and stuff was not that important because it all comes down to what the artist wants people to hear.  If the artist wants an unnoticeable instrument added, then so be it.

Anyone know of a good audio engineers podcast?  I have been missing out lately and should get back interested in some podcasts.  I really like some of 'em.  For me now it's just Twit & Cranky Geeks mainly.  I need more specialized podcasts and I'd say music is ever increasing as one of favorite topics.  Greatly due to FLAC & MC.

But using FLAC, aren't we avoiding the whole compression issue?  We just plain skipped that problem, didn't we?!  100% of my library is FLAC.  Now I end up with mp3s on my iPhone (which I listen to in my car) but I still like audio CDs that I burn in my car.  So the part we have control over: we took the right path!  FLAC!
Logged

Alex B

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 10121
  • The Cosmic Bird
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2008, 11:17:57 am »

Quote
But using FLAC, aren't we avoiding the whole compression issue?  We just plain skipped that problem, didn't we?!

No. Not at all.
Logged
The Cosmic Bird - a triple merger of galaxies: http://eso.org/public/news/eso0755

m1abrams

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2008, 11:40:01 am »


But using FLAC, aren't we avoiding the whole compression issue?  We just plain skipped that problem, didn't we?!  100% of my library is FLAC.  Now I end up with mp3s on my iPhone (which I listen to in my car) but I still like audio CDs that I burn in my car.  So the part we have control over: we took the right path!  FLAC!

No completely different type of compression.  Dynamic Range compression is not the same as file compression and is completely independent.  As for your posts about getting noise on amps at high volumes.  This can be due to the noise floor of the recording but most likely the noise floor of the amp or source device.  Which is where high end gear excels and reduces this noise floor to levels below which you will notice.
Logged

MusicHawk

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2008, 11:43:31 am »

A few quick comments, based on my spending many years as an audio/radio engineer in recording studios and broadcast stations (certified Senior Engineer by Society of Broadcast Engineers)...

For most musical instruments, and even some voices, there's no way to accurately record and reproduce their true frequency response. Microphones are not FLAT, so the fidelity problem begins right there.

And, neither microphones nor audio chains nor recording media can fully handle a "live" dynamic range. In fact, a piano is the hardest instrument to record/playback accurately -- evidenced by its original name which included the phrase "piano e forte", Italian for "soft and loud". The power put out by banging ten keys of a concert grand piano while pressing the sustain pedal exceeds any mike+recorder+medium+amp+speaker system. There are amplitude (loudness) limitations with any media, whether it's tape or vinyl analog or digital.

If a recording setup is configured to try and handle a loud piano, the quietest sounds recorded at the same time usually would be lost in noise. The media noise problem is much-improved in the digital world, but there is still noise in any electronic system due (literally) to molecular vibration, plus ambient air movement, media imperfections, and other stuff including cosmic rays penetrating electronics and generating noise. It's a problem that is better than before but still a factor to be overcome.

So, among many variables, the recording system can't capture the true live performance, and the various media and formats can't store it perfectly.

Then maybe the biggest factor, the user's playback system almost never can get close to reproducing what was captured -- which isn't even the same as the original performance anyway. The ONE recording must be reasonably listenable in environments varying from quite noisy vehicles to quite quiet rooms. There's almost always ambient noise, plus non-linear speakers/headphones, plus very uneven frequencies reaching the ear due to reflection and absorption. And don't even start contemplating the bumpy frequency response of the human ear -- each human ear, because we all hear differently.

Result: Whatever we *think* we are hearing is different -- sometimes very different -- from what we might have heard standing in the recording studio. Which isn't a good or bad thing, just a fact.

Recording and broadcast engineers have long dealt with this by using frequency equalization and level compression to compensate for limitations all along the process. Both processes are subjective -- some would say arbitrary -- but we are so used to this sound, and it's so needed in most situations, that music without processing sounds almost horrible. For real fun, look at an audio level meter while playing Phil Spector "Wall of Sound" records from the mid-60s. When I'd encounter one of these on an oldies station, we'd joke that it was a good substitute for a steady 1000Hz test tone used to set levels along the audio chain. But Spector wasn't going for "fidelity", he was going for a hot sound on an AM car radio -- and he got it.

The entire chain is impure, of necessity and desire. Recorded music -- CD, vinyl, whatever -- is processed by the recording engineer to even out and capture the performance. Then it is manipulated by the recording medium -- tape recorders apply a "curve", for instance to deal with magnetic tape limitations. Then it is AGAIN manipulated by the pressing plant.

For instance, to reduce noise the RIAA curve applied when mastering to vinyl; it tilts up the high frequencies, which the RIAA-compliant playback system tilts back down -- the main reason a turntable must be plugged into a phono input (the other being to get extra amplification of the weak signal). The problem is, even small variations in RIAA-curve compliance on either/both sides result in further loss of fidelity. Fortunately CDs skip this step. A similar process is used with Dolby and other noise reduction systems.

Radio and TV stations further apply processing, both to level-out different audio sources, and (especially in the case of radio) make the signal "louder" to ride over reception noise and to "jump out" of the radio dial. Stations typically feed the studio output "audio chain" into a real-time multi-band compressor, which splits the audio into several frequency bands (5 or more), then levels the volume in that band, then puts it all back together to feed the transmitter. Bass-shy recordings get more bass and sound more balanced mixed in with bass-heavy recordings, which get their based reduced -- dynamically as it plays. This is the biggest reason why home-made mix tapes/CDs/iPods/MC-playback don't sound like a radio station. (In my radio station days we'd spend hours tweaking the audio chain to get the perfect "punch", so my wish-list for MC's DSP is to have a radio-style compressor plug-in.)

I'm simplifying, of course, but the point is that "true" fidelity is lost the instant the sound enters the recording microphone. Everything after that is compromises, many of them necessary.

All of this said.... Today, few people seem to encounter, know, or even care about anything close to High Fidelity. Witness ridiculous bass systems in cars, and the bizarre claims of "quality" applied to 3 and 4 inch speakers -- impossible due to the physics of audio. Then there's 128Kbps MP3, which would hurt even Phil Spector's ears.
Logged
Managing my media with JRiver since Media Jukebox 8 (maybe earlier), currently use Media Center for Audio/Music and Photos/Videos.
My career in media spans Radio, TV, Print, Photography, Music, Film, Online, Live, Advertising, as producer, director, writer, performer, editor, engineer, executive, owner. An exhausting but amazing ride.

Alex B

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 10121
  • The Cosmic Bird
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2008, 12:34:41 pm »

IMO, the Loudness War phenomenon is not a very complicated thing.

Usually, after the recording sessions and mixing are finished the produced studio master still has excellent dynamics. In the final mastering stage some amount of "radiostation type" compression is applied. A reasonable amount of this compression has been standard practise for decades (as MusicHawk explained), but unfortunately this amount has constantly increased during the last few years in the popular music industry.

So far this trend has not seriously effected e.g. classical music or jazz.

In some situations a compressed version can be better, like in a noisy car environment.
It would be better if the players had a switch for compressed output like most home theater receivers have for the DD or DTS soundtrack. Unfortunately the Red Book standard was created before that kind of options were widely available.
Logged
The Cosmic Bird - a triple merger of galaxies: http://eso.org/public/news/eso0755

bob

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 13577
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2008, 12:46:03 pm »

So far this trend has not seriously effected e.g. classical music or jazz.

In some situations a compressed version can be better, like in a noisy car environment.
It would be better if the players had a switch for compressed output like most home theater receivers have for the DD or DTS soundtrack. Unfortunately the Red Book standard was created before that kind of options were widely available.

It's frustrating to try and play some classical music (like Mahler for instance) that has huge dynamic range in a car. I've thought for a long time that a way of compressing the output in a car on the fly would be very useful.
Logged

m1abrams

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2008, 01:06:35 pm »

It's frustrating to try and play some classical music (like Mahler for instance) that has huge dynamic range in a car. I've thought for a long time that a way of compressing the output in a car on the fly would be very useful.

Actually some car radios have a eq like setting that does just this.  My old explorer stock radio had a setting call "compression" that did pretty much that, I did not care for the sound though.  Many Home Theatre receivers also have a similar feature (atleast my Denon 3805 does), it is used so you can hear the dialogue at low volumes without blasting the whole house out when the loud explosions happen, this reduces the effect of the explosions but allows you to hear what is being said.
Logged

benn600

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3849
  • Living: Santa Monica CA Hometown: Cedar Rapids IA
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2008, 01:23:05 pm »

What I mean by the FLAC question is: aren't we skipping the MP3 compression issue?  I know the dynamic range compression issue is burned into every CD and is already set in stone.

We're essentially doing the best we can with FLAC and at that point, it is up to the audio engineers who made the CD we're listening to.
Logged

llafriel

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2008, 01:56:44 pm »

MP3, as well as FLAC, compress the data itself(lossy and lossless), not the waveform. They're aiming for smaller filesizes and don't compress the dynamics.

Logged

MusicHawk

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
Re: OT: 'The Death of High Fidelity'
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2008, 01:57:14 pm »

Simple linear compression, such as 2:1 -- input increase of 2db results in output increase of 1db -- can work in some situations -- two-way radio systems, for instance.

But music is so complex this results in one-size-fits-nobody. A professional compressor is a sea of knobs/settings such as threshold, attack time, compression ratio/curve, release time, and that's often per frequency-band.

The "good" goal is to reduce dynamic range while still sounding like there is a dynamic range. Bad side effects include obvious, distracting level changes going into and/or out of a loud part, which can be a second or less in duration -- control the peak of a cymbal crash while not punching an obvious hole in the sound around it.

Dynamic range compression has been annoying music listeners forever. In the 1960s Andre Kostelantez recorded several big-orchestra albums for Columbia. When they were re-released a decade later in various them collections, they had been re-compressed to an absurd degree to try and make them sound more "contemporary". The difference is so dramatic when viewing the track's audio waveform that it's comical.

I worked with a classical station in San Francisco that was AM and FM. The FM side used very slow compression, mainly to allow for sloppy board operators, while the AM audio chain had more aggressive automatic adjustement on the presumption that AM listeners were in less favorable environments.

Re classical music's dynamic range, funny story: One day I heard talking coming out of the FM air monitor (in the control room we always listened directly to our air signals via radio receivers). Two guys were chatting about where to meet for lunch! I was ready to shut down the transmitter, should their dialog veer off-color, but it didn't and they eventually stopped. It turned out to be two AT&T engineers in different locations. They clipped onto what they though were unused lines to chat. Problem was, they chose our studio-to-transmitter line! They thought it was unused because they didn't hear anything -- the classical work passage we were playing was at such a low level, they couldn't hear it on their telco buttsets. We raised H*** and they put "do not touch" red caps on every cable cross point between our downtown San Francisco studio and Belmont transmitter.
Logged
Managing my media with JRiver since Media Jukebox 8 (maybe earlier), currently use Media Center for Audio/Music and Photos/Videos.
My career in media spans Radio, TV, Print, Photography, Music, Film, Online, Live, Advertising, as producer, director, writer, performer, editor, engineer, executive, owner. An exhausting but amazing ride.
Pages: [1]   Go Up