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[e-head]

I'd like to make the case that the way MC auto-refreshes/populates it's smartlists is not ideal for people who use external devices.

MC auto-refreshes the playlists by essentially deleting all tracks and then applying the rule set to the library to re-populate the playlist. This is fine for people using the playlist on their home computer. Hitting the refresh button essentially does the same thing.

iTunes, on the other hand, goes through each song to see if it STILL fits the rule set. If it does, then it keeps the file. If it doesn't, it deletes the track. Once it's done with all the tracks it ONLY re-populates the tracks that it removed, in order to fullfill the limiting rules (e.g., 50 tracks, or 5 GB).

If you are like me, and use smart playlists almost exclusively to pupulate your external device, the difference becomes enormous.

Say you have a 60 GB iPod (or iRiver). I have 5 smart playlists, one for each of my favorite genres (electronic, indie, jazz, etc...). Each is limited to 10GB. In addition to the genre rule, I have rules saying the track cannot have been listened to or skipped in the last 4 days (I sync my pod at least once every 4 days, to pick up new music and grab any new podcasts).

Now, say I've only listened to 50 jazz songs at work. With iTunes smart playlist behavior, this is what happens when I plug in my pod....
iTunes updates the last played stamp on all the files.
iTunes examines the smart playlists, and deletes the 50 Jazz tracks I listened to, replacing them with 50 new ones.
That's it! None of the indie or electronic songs get replaced, assuming I didn't listen to them.
Syncing takes like 3 minutes. My hard drive isn't over-heated. My iPod battery isn't run down. Quick and easy.

Now... with MC, on the other hand, 50GB of stuff gets transferred! Even though I haven't listened to the old stuff. I'm sure you can see the advantage now.

I'd love it if MC could somehow take this into consideration. Perhaps an option could be added (auto-refresh on/off). With auto-refresh off the playlist would act like it does in iTunes. With this option on the functionality would stay the same. Considering it's a simple thing to hit the "refresh" button anyway, you may want to simply reconsider how this works.

Anyway, I want to congratulate you guys on an amazing application! This is my only major issue. I've only been using it a couple of days, but in every other respect it seems far superior to iTunes (and any other manager I've used). It's responsiveness is far better than iTunes with my rather large library, and it only uses 1/2 the memory.

So, this is my plea for you guys to consider adding an option or something to the smart playlists. I'd love to use MC to sync my pod, and leave iTunes behind for good!

[e-head]

Maybe you could call the current method auto-refreshing, and the "iTunes way" auto-updating. Give people the option to use one or the other (or even neither, I suppose, which would just apply the rule set once, and that's that. This could possibly be useful, who knows.).

[SwellGuy]

We hear you - we're kicking around what it would take to implement that type of functionality.

Apple has the distinct advantage that they are only dealing with their device, their firmware and their software. If we implemented a system like that it's unlikely that it would work for a good deal of the devices that we support since getting device play stats is currently most reliable on iPods only.

[e-head]

I'm glad to hear you guys are thinking about it. Even if it only worked on iPods that would be great. They are definitely starting to dominate the market. 

I'm old and stubborn and even I finally broke down and bought one, after using my iRiver forever.

[SwellGuy]

Starting?

[eshoe]

I'm a Jukebox user and registered just to say that I completely agree. I have an 8GB nano and this is the one thing that keeps me from using it with MJ. I assure you I'd upgrade to MC and never look back if this option ever gets added. I think the OP's idea of being able to have a smart playlist auto-refresh or auto-update is a great one.

Is this something that might really happen?

Any time line?

Thanks and cheers,
eshoe

[fitbrit]

We hear you - we're kicking around what it would take to implement that type of functionality.

See! This is why I love MC.

[e-head]

In the meantime... something that might be quicker/easier to implement, and would potentially be useful for any device... have the option to just turn off auto-refresh for a given playlist all together.

I generally know what I've been listening too, so I wouldn't mind manually refreshing the smart playlists I use on my pod by hand. Then, if I'm getting towards the end of my Jazz playlist, I could just refresh it, leaving the others that haven't been listened to alone.

It's not quite as ideal as the "auto-update" approach, but it has the advantage of being useful for potentially more devices, plus it would probably be quicker/easier to add.

[gappie]

im not sure... but could this not be a nice extra functionality for people who dont use external devices. just for within mc, just as a standard option for a smartlist. in which case it would also work for those with a more obscure handheld.

 
gab
 

[e-head]

Alright... I think I pretty much have this working, at least working for me.

I don't know if this is what it's for or not, but... if you set up your smart playlist with a "sequence" modifier (Modify Results), then limit it via number of tracks, time, or space, the list essentially becomes static. It's important to have the "sequence" modifier first, then the other limit. Now, navigating away and going back doesn't cause it to refresh the entire list.

The next thing to do is to create your own rules that "kick" songs off the list as you listen to them. I use haven't been played or skipped in the last 4 days.

Now, make sure you have update play count checked in your device settings.

Now, as you listen to songs, either on your iPod or inside Media Center, they will get "kicked" from your smart playlist and replaced with something new (according to your rules). All the other songs stay on it though, till you either listen to them or skip them. This is essentially the way iTunes smart playlists work. The great thing about this is you don't have to wait while your whole pod sync's up. Only songs you've listened to get replaced, nothing else.

The only catch is I've noticed the play count isn't always updated right away. You might have to hit "recheck sync", but that's really no big deal.

Anyway... you'll be getting my $40 now. No doubt about it.


P.S.
If you have a device that doesn't report back what you've played... this won't work quite as slick. You could still use the "sequence" modifier and just hit "refresh" every now and then when you're pretty close to the end of one of your smart playlists.

[e-head]

Alright, ignore that previous comment. It turned out to be a red herring, more or less.

I think what I want, and I imagine a lot of other people want this too, is to turn their iPod into a perpetual music machine on auto-pilot. By which I mean.... sync and go, sync and go, with no intervention required basically, AND that meets these requirements:
Only songs you've listened to get replaced, so that syncing is quick and easy.
Have a certain degree of randomness to the songs that replace them.

The way MC auto-refreshes sort of precludes the first requirement, if you are using a plain jane smart playlist.

So, that got me thinking this might could be accomplished with sorting and limiting maybe, or perhaps by using two playlists (use one as a queue for the other). That "sequence" modifier looked promising, but it's hardly random. Using a "last played or skipped" rule you can get songs to drop off the list, but when they come back they appear right where they were before (I have no idea what controls the ordering). If anyone knows what this modifier does I'd be interested.

The problem with using some sort of sort order (no pun intended), is that it runs contrary to the second requirement, i.e., randomness.

I think I came up with a somewhat useable solution for large playlists, but it's hardly ideal... sort on "last played" and then apply a limiter. Now, on your external device, when you listen to your playlists make sure you have it on shuffle. Otherwise the play order will essentially stay the same. There will be a certain amount of "clumping", in that songs on your playlist will tend to stay together, but at least the order will be shaken up. For small playlists the "clumping" would be really bad, so this probably wouldn't work.

e.g.
You have 10 GB of jazz.
Set your playlist genre to Jazz.
Sort by last played.
Limit to 500 MB.
Put your player/device on shuffle when listening to it.

Anyone else, more wise in the ways of smart playlists, have any other ideas?