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Way OT - Makes Me Sad and Angry...

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glynor:
Today made me sad.  It wasn't that I didn't expect it, but it was nice having a little hope (even if I knew deep-down it was false).  I don't really want to get anyone into a huge, raging argument but if anyone wants to comment... It just spins me into a libertarian rage.

All I can really say is.... EPIC FAIL.


--- Quote ---More than two and a half years after the disclosure of President’s Bush’s domestic eavesdropping program set off a furious national debate, the Senate gave final approval on Wednesday afternoon to broadening the government’s spy powers and providing legal immunity for the phone companies that took part in the wiretapping program.
--- End quote ---

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/washington/10fisa.html?ref=washington

KingSparta:
As long as your not building a bomb or supporting terrorism I think you will be OK.

JimH:
Here's another article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080710/ap_on_go_co/terrorist_surveillance;_ylt=AiGj3V3HmFlJ131PbfWLdlB34T0D

John Gateley:
Disclaimer: opinions are solely my own, and do not represent JRiver

I used to hate Qwest - a long history of terrible customer service. Then they were the only major telecom to not give info to the government. I bought a new DSL modem from them to say thanks.

King - remember Watergate? Here's a brief quote from wikipedia:
They also revealed the immense scope of crimes and abuses,
which included campaign fraud, political espionage and sabotage,
illegal break-ins, improper tax audits, illegal wiretapping on a massive scale,
and a secret slush fund laundered in Mexico to pay those
who conducted these operations.
I don't think Nixon would have said "we'll only use this to catch terrorists and bomb builders".
If it happened before, it'll happen again.

j

glynor:

--- Quote from: KingSparta on July 09, 2008, 08:34:14 pm ---As long as your not building a bomb or supporting terrorism I think you will be OK.

--- End quote ---

Not sure if you were completely serious or not, but...

With attitudes like that, I don't think any of us will be okay.

Unchecked power is unchecked.  What's to stop them from using the most faulty of evidence (or non-existant evidence), since judicial review is not required (it can still be delayed indefinitely and in secret)... Not even a secret, high-speed, high-priority review.  I mean, we have 24 hour McDonald's stores and we can't have a couple of judges standing "by the ready" at all times for things like this in order to maintain national security and abide by the most basic checks on power?  What exactly is the problem with that?  Heck, let them do it after the fact.  How about three  months after the fact?  Or six?  (The existing law already allowed submissions to FISA after the fact.)

This is not like previous wars.  These new completely unchecked executive powers are not temporary.  Do you really think we can "defeat" the islamic extremest movement completely?  Of course not, you can't kill them all, they'll just make more.  Our own country will produce more.  The best we can hope for is to marginalize them and contain them (and pray like hell they don't go crazy and use BioWeapons), and in 20-30 years, we might, maybe, f we are lucky, have a solution similar to what exists now in Northern Ireland.  Therefore, we are not talking about just granting the current (and next) administration "special powers" like we did in the 40's.  This is forever, giving them carte blanch permission to listen and track and pattern-match, as long as the Attorney General says it is for National Security and involves a non-US party at one "endpoint" of the transmission.

Freedom isn't free, but we can't just give it up forever without truthfully discussing the long-term consequences.  I don't think that was done.

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