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Author Topic: Theater View requests  (Read 5067 times)

raym

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Theater View requests
« on: September 17, 2009, 07:04:19 am »

It's no secret that I love Theater View and the developments made to this interface over the last year or so are outstanding. Arguably, the core to a system like the Synapse is going to be Theater View and while its features and functions continue to grow, there's still a bit of refinement that I think needs to take place first. As someone who has fully embraced the lounge room PC "experience" for several years, I see a few gaps in the current Theater View implementation.

I really don't want to turn this into another Theater View request post but I would like to illustrate my point with just a few examples of what I would consider "deal breakers" when it comes to a remote only HTPC system:

- no way of re-ording and editing playlist items
- cannot save changes back to existing playlists
- cannot define playlist folders
- unable to lock down the interface for parties etc
- unable to browse the file system, digital cameras, memory cards and other media not imported
- unable to import media "on demand" from optical discs, local file system, digital cameras, memory cards
- CD ripping with a remote control is really difficult due to Standard View "multiple match" dialogs and the like
- same with CD buring - multiple span dialogs are Standard View dialogs and impossible to read and navigate from the couch
- no way of copying TV recordings to DVD (or any other format for that matter) for sharing with others
- no Blue Ray integration (that is even remotely possible for the average user to set up themselves)
- unable to scan for TV channels with a remote (when updates to PIDs etc occur)

For the record, I personally have either accepted to live without these things or have devised work-arounds for each. It doesn't mean I won't continue to bat for this stuff in the future though :-)

The Synapse will certainly be a challenge but if anyone can make it happen, I reckon you guys can!

Cheers, R
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JimH

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2009, 07:17:34 am »

Can you choose 3 of these that are the most important to you?
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raym

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2009, 07:39:44 am »

Can you choose 3 of these that are the most important to you?

The top 3 playlist ones for me personally as I have no work-around for this limitation currently. This includes PLAYING NOW! I think we need some form of playlist management capability that extends beyond simply saving Playing Now lists.

Cheers.

PS - The CD ripping/burning one (Standard View dialogs) is just a long standing bug and one I think you could knock over fairly quickly (?)
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maxxsid

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2009, 02:26:55 pm »

can this get some attention too:
- unable to browse the file system, digital cameras, memory cards and other media not imported
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jmone

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2009, 03:51:02 pm »

These are two of my pet hates:

Quote
- no way of copying TV recordings to DVD (or any other format for that matter) for sharing with others

And people baged MS for comming up with their own formats, but at least you can edit and convert etc MS-DVR files.....

Quote
- no Blue Ray integration (that is even remotely possible for the average user to set up themselves)

Even Jim has Blu-ray now.....and there are 3 options:
1) Native Support (I know that this is very $$$ and way to expensvie)
2) Integration with a Player (MS Media Center integrated 3rd party apps such as Arcsoft TMT into their front end).  I've provided the Arcsoft contact details previously to JR but I did not hear back on this.
3) Some home grown Integration that has to be better than that script I wrote.
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raym

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2009, 04:42:36 pm »

can this get some attention too:
- unable to browse the file system, digital cameras, memory cards and other media not imported

I've also added this which is closely related: - unable to import media "on demand" from optical discs, local file system, digital cameras, memory cards

Apart from ripping music cds, there's no way of adding content (eg digital photos on a CD or camera) via Theater View.

There's this great workaround: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=51509.0 but it's no substitute for what you guys could build right into the interface.
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rpalmer68

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2009, 04:50:29 pm »

- unable to browse the file system, digital cameras, memory cards and other media not imported
- no way of copying TV recordings to DVD (or any other format for that matter) for sharing with others
- no Blue Ray integration (that is even remotely possible for the average user to set up themselves)

These would be my top 3, plus I'll add refreshing views when auto-import imports new files without haveing to exit and re-enter a view, just like when a file is deleted.

Richard
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jmone

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2009, 04:53:24 pm »

+1 on some auto refreshing Views / Reload library
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datdude

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2009, 05:45:32 pm »

To me a lot of these request can be done from the primary interface, and can easily be done over remote desktop, so I don't see a great need to add them into the Theater View Interface, when they can just as easily be done the normal way.

I definitely want support for Blu-Ray though.
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raym

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2009, 05:56:10 pm »

To me a lot of these request can be done from the primary interface, and can easily be done over remote desktop, so I don't see a great need to add them into the Theater View Interface, when they can just as easily be done the normal way.

agreed but consider the context of this thread - the Synapse. A stand alone remote control driven device aimed at the lounge room PC /HTPC market.
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datdude

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2009, 06:52:40 pm »

Ah, some of those do make more sense then.
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JimH

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2009, 06:59:44 pm »

raym,
Just a quick reaction to these:
Quote
- unable to browse the file system, digital cameras, memory cards and other media not imported
That's probably a day or two of work for us.  Say $2000.
Quote
- no way of copying TV recordings to DVD (or any other format for that matter) for sharing with others
We're not much in the sharing business except when it's legal.

This may be 2 weeks or so of work.  Say $10,000.
Quote
- no Blue Ray integration (that is even remotely possible for the average user to set up themselves)
Right now, I can play Blu-rays from Theater View without too much trouble.  I installed the WinDVD software that came with the drive and I just call it from MC.

To do a marginally better job, we'd need to partner with someone who's done a dll we could use.  Abisoft?  Assume a week or two ($5,000 to $10,000) and users would pay a toll ($10 or $15?).

To do it right, we'd need to get the Blu-ray group's approval ($50,000?) and then spend 6 or 8 weeks ($30,000 plus).

I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, but it's a steep hill to climb for the 500 people who might buy it right now.

On the plus side, you should pat yourself on the back for being on the bleeding edge.

My own opinion, humbly expressed recently, is that digital feeds like Hulu will make Blu-ray a questionable decision.

On this topic, I like ghandi's quote when asked by a reporter about a mob of people suddenly streaming by:

"Oh, excuse me, but those are my people.  I must follow them, for I am their leader."

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raym

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2009, 07:26:22 pm »

Thanks for the feedback Jim. The BlueRay argument is a tricky (and costly) one I agree. Like you, I too have a work-around for this. I threw this on the table because of the interest it receives. It would certainly make JRiver the coolest guy on the block but I understand the hurdles.

Quote
My own opinion, humbly expressed recently, is that digital feeds like Hulu will make Blu-ray a questionable decision

Well, Hulu isn't available here (Aust) so that's a bummer in itself. I'd be happy with a bug-free YouTube experience though  ;)

Quote
- unable to browse the file system, digital cameras, memory cards and other media not imported
That's probably a day or two of work for us.  Say $2000.

This sounds very promising. Again, a big "request ticket" item. Please don't forget the import bit. We need to be able to browse AND import content via Theater View easily.

Quote
We're not much in the sharing business except when it's legal.

I was specifically referring to "free-to-air" television only. Recording free-to-air for personal use is not illegal (well not here at least).

Ralf.
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leezer3

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2009, 07:29:33 pm »

My own opinion, humbly expressed recently, is that digital feeds like Hulu will make Blu-ray a questionable decision.

You underestimate the publics love of physical media IMHO :)
MC's userbase is a different kettle of fish, as many of us are here simply because of the database, which tends to make the physical file irrelevant. (I always smile when I see people asking how to organise directories, surely the *whole* point of the database is to keep track of that, so I don't have too)
Also remember that in some countries, the internet connections simply can't handle a decent hi-def feed (My parents for example are stuck on a 512k connection with no prospect of improvement), and so in these sorts of cases the physical disk will always be king.

Biggest omission at the minute really is DVB-S support I think. This is one of the two major TV standards, and it's a little dissapointing that MC doesn't support it.

I'll also add my perennial grumble about button-based skins being semi-broken, there is a definite group of us who simply prefer these to the roller alternative; Please don't abandon us.

-Leezer-
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jmone

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2009, 08:35:42 pm »

Quote
To do a marginally better job, we'd need to partner with someone who's done a dll we could use.  Abisoft?  Assume a week or two ($5,000 to $10,000) and users would pay a toll ($10 or $15?).

To do it right, we'd need to get the Blu-ray group's approval ($50,000?) and then spend 6 or 8 weeks ($30,000 plus).

I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, but it's a steep hill to climb for the 500 people who might buy it right now.

Right now the market for a retail software player that includes Blu-ray support is $100 which I have already paid to both Arcsoft and PowerDVD + discounted upgrades for the latest version.  I'll happily pay again for the MC integrated version if it is any good.

Quote
My own opinion, humbly expressed recently, is that digital feeds like Hulu will make Blu-ray a questionable decision.

Jim your not getting off that lightly!  Your equally humbly expressed opinion in the Performer Store thread suggests otherwise "Regarding quality, I think of this (128kbs WMA files) as a good way to trial music to see if I like it, and to explore similar artists.  Sometimes I'll buy an MP3 (320kbps), but if I want the entire album, I'll use the link to Amazon to buy a CD" (note: emphasis is mine).....digital feeds are just another sourcing option and have their place for those that value convenience over quality.   Stores still sell CD's and DVD's and the same model holds for Blu-ray, I might be able to download some low quality version of a movie but if I want the quality associated with file sizes up to 50GB, then I'm getting it on Blu-ray.
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ThoBar

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2009, 10:23:45 pm »

First of all, I *really* want that Theater View based file browsing support.  *REALLY* want it.
...

If you're looking at online services as being the primary provider for movies etc, then I really think you need to look at regional solutions. In AU, Telstra (our primary telcommunications (infrastructure) provider) provides on-demand services though a plugin for MSMC.

Given the inability for non-US users to reach most M/VOD solutions in the US, plugins for regional solutions like the telstra one really need to be considered. I dont imagine this would be a fun task, and I dont know about your user base distribution as to whether it's worthwhile, but if you have the plugin architecture for Theater View sorted and available, it may encourage the 3rd parties to drop their solution in for you, rather than you having to arrange it yourselves. (we're all still waiting for that Theater View plugin API ;) )

This leads to my agreement with leezer's point, that HD streaming is a while off being ubiquitous, and therefore should not be seen as a replacement for physical media support.
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gappie

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2009, 02:36:29 am »

i would just like it if thv would give some info about the current playback, like [Elapsed Time]. preferably in the info panel.

 :)
gab
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gappie

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2009, 02:29:02 am »

and an other one: it would be nice if disabeling the setting 'show scroll bars' would be honoured thoughout thv.

i know, its just cosmetics.
 :)
gab
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MrHaugen

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2009, 04:09:06 am »

and an other one: it would be nice if disabeling the setting 'show scroll bars' would be honoured thoughout Theater View.

i know, its just cosmetics.
 :)
gab

+1.
I've noticed that at least the scroll bars in Info Pane always is visible (build 70). It's cosmetic, sure, but looks much better without.
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datdude

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2009, 10:53:04 am »

In a similar realm, I'm not sure why the file info panels shrink the large cover art when adding info in the panel below them? 

When there is nothing there, the cover art takes up about a quarter of the screen and looks really nice, but there is a lot of empty room, about another quarter of the screen, below it.  I would have assumed that when adding info below it, that it would first fill up ALL of that empty space, and then actually use the scroll bars without shrinking the cover art.

As it is, for Audio files in Playing Now, I don't display any info in the panel below since it makes the cover art so small when adding even just a couple of fields.
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glynor

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2009, 12:40:48 pm »

Sorry, guys... I'm really with Jim on the whole BluRay thing.  As a format, I suspect it is doomed to niche status for most of it's lifespan.  Sales just have NOT picked up the way the BluRay Alliance would have had us believe, and I think there is a simple reason for that...

digital feeds are just another sourcing option and have their place for those that value convenience over quality.   Stores still sell CD's and DVD's and the same model holds for Blu-ray, I might be able to download some low quality version of a movie but if I want the quality associated with file sizes up to 50GB, then I'm getting it on Blu-ray.

Somewhat true, but expanding the example of CDs/DVDs to BluRay isn't quite right or fair.  The public does not adopt any technology in a vacuum, but does so in the context of what was already available (benefits perceived compared to what came before).  Three different factors are conspiring together to work against widespread adoption of BluRay:

1. BluRay isn't "better enough" to supplant DVD in the general marketplace.  When enthusiasts get into the "BluRay is/isn't better than upscaled DVD religious wars", they're really missing the point.  Is the visual and audio quality of BluRay better than DVD?  Sure.  I'll even give you that it is "dramatically better".  However, visual and audio quality improvements alone WOULD NOT have been enough to establish DVD in the marketplace (or CD before it).  The most important change that helped CD/DVD media gain a foothold in the market was the switch from analog tape to digital bit-streams, and the other conveniences that entails.  The switch away from TAPE is the point I'm making... Instant Fast-Forwarding, instant starting over, no rewinding, no long-term degradation in quality from use, pausing, and chaptering.  All of those features were brand new.  They were a potent reason, in addition to quality, to make the switch from VHS to DVD (or tape to CD).  These technologies didn't see adoption due to increased "quality" alone.  On the whole when you considered BOTH quality and convenience, they were dramatically superior to what came before.

Unfortunately for BluRay, the new features it brings to the table aren't universally implemented and aren't really that compelling to the average consumer (all of the fancy interactive stuff for example, which did so well way back on CDi back in the day).  I worked at a couple Audio-Visual retail stores right during the time when the DVD transition was happening (starting when there were 1-3 models of DVD players retailing for $400+ and ending right when the VHS decks were relegated to a back rack of the store), and let me tell you... Most consumers were far more interested in these "convenience" features, than they were in the quality improvement.  And even ignoring those other convenience factors, you have to admit that the quality shift from VHS to DVD was far more dramatic than the shift from DVD to BluRay.  Quality will drive high-end consumers (like us) to buy systems when they are priced at enthusiast levels.  Quality isn't enough to sell it at the commodity level, because the average user doesn't care enough to warrant the cost of buying into a new format.

2. The BluRay spec was "broken by design".  It was almost like the consortium wanted it to fail.  Just look at how difficult it is to get a stupid BluRay disc to play on a computer!  And even with set-top boxes, since they kept revising the spec, different players support different features...  It is obvious that in their obsession with both licensing fees (and the huge dollar signs they saw when dreaming of retail sales similar to the height of the "DVD revolution") and copy protection that they crippled the format almost beyond repair.  That and the initial "fight" between BluRay and HD-DVD cost them 2 valuable years which allowed the quality and availability of online distribution mediums, like the iTunes store and Amazon Unbox, to catch up dramatically.

3. Video compression has become tremendously more efficient and high-quality.  Simultaneously, computer hardware has become powerful enough (even at the ultra-low-end) to support real-time decoding of even highly compressed HD streams.  Therefore, you no longer NEED 50GB to store 2 hours of high-quality 1080p content.  Is the quality of an ultra-high-bitrate BluRay disc better than a "downloadable" 1080p H264 compressed MP4?  Yes.  Is it better "enough" to justify the tremendous added expense and inconvenience?  Not for most consumers.  You compare a well-produced BluRay disc to a well-compressed 3GB 1080p H264 High Profile MKV with AC3 audio... Is the BluRay better?  Sure!  But, then, so was Betamax.  Is it "OMG, I can't even watch the other one anymore without getting a headache" better?  Not at all.  Now imagine your average consumer comparing the two... And add in that their local movie rental place has gone under, the Blockbuster video closed down, and the hassle (and extra cost for BluRay) of waiting for it to show up from NetFlix?  And add-in ever increasing bandwidth availability, allowing the downloadable quality to increase incrementally over time as broadband data speeds creep higher and higher.  All of this adds up to BluRay filling the same niche as LaserDisc did way back in the day.  High-end enthusiast and not much else...
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rick.ca

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2009, 02:29:23 pm »

Those who have seen their vinyl and now CD collections become obsolete must be wary of the same thing happening with video. Why invest in Blu-ray when we know it will become obsolete—probably much quicker than any format before it? But I think the more important lesson we've learned is it's the content we want. We're not as easily sucked-in by shiny plastic discs. ;)

Hopefully, the market (and the technology it requires—including software like MC) is progressing towards a model more focused on content. A website for a movie, for example, can offer a download and additional web features for a base fee. For additional fees, they could ship a Blu-ray disk or email a theatre ticket.
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Marty3d

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2009, 02:54:15 am »

Favorite thing right now for me would be:

To use checkboxes like in the Action View for Semicolon lists... I hate being forced to type stuff already in those lists when tagging.
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ThoBar

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2009, 03:44:11 am »

raym,
Just a quick reaction to these:
Quote
- unable to browse the file system, digital cameras, memory cards and other media not imported
That's probably a day or two of work for us.  Say $2000.

Any chance of this happening in the near future? There have been numerous requests for this...

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HTPC4ME

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Re: Theater View requests
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2010, 02:06:56 pm »

Quote
Right now, I can play Blu-rays from Theater View without too much trouble.  I installed the WinDVD software that came with the drive and I just call it from MC.

How do I accomplsh calling it from MC?

ty
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