Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Lunatique]

When I found out MC14 had VST hosting, I was so excited, but after actually trying it out, I was disappointed. While using plugins like parametric EQ, the lag is irrelevant, but when using plugins like spectrum analyzers, the lag is unbearable. The whole point spectrum analyzers is to be able to study the frequency movements and learn more about the track being played, but the response is so slow and sluggish that you're seeing the frequency graph a whole beat or more behind the actual music being played. Why is the VST hosting in MC14 so sluggish?

When I use a typical VST host like Xulop Chainer, I would load a VST MP3 player like mp3play2 and also an EQ, and a spectrum analyzer, and the analyzer would respond very quickly, on the beat, with no lag at all. In fact I could load a bunch of synths, effects...etc and it wouldn't become sluggish. I could be happy with that, except there are no VST mp3 player/librarians with features like MC.

So, is there any way to fix this problem?

[Matt]

You can reduce the latency between a DSP seeing data and you hearing the data by reducing the amount of buffering in Options > Playback > Output mode settings...  Using ASIO (or maybe WASAPI) with a smallish hardware latency will also help.

If the problem is the redraw frequency (frame rate) of the visualization, this is likely a problem with the particular plugin.  We've tested a few that don't redraw at full speed and we believe it's because the plugins don't properly handle data flow from a worker thread like they should.

[Lunatique]

I tried your suggestion and it didn't improve all that much. I tried ASIO via a PCI sound card (Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1) and also a USB audio interface (Line 6 Toneport UX2), with the buffer to the lowest, and the responsiveness is still nowhere near when I use Xulop Chainer. The graph response basically looks like really choppy animation instead of ultra-smooth like it should be.

The spectrum analyzers I've tried are ones like Voxengo SPAN, Nugen Audio Visualizer, Stillwell Audio Schope...etc--all professional grade analyzers. Blue Cat's VST plugins won't even show up (although the DX versions do show up in the DirectX host).

[Matt]

Thanks for the plugin names.

The issue is that these visualizer plugins don't like how we're providing them data.

Here's how we deliver data:

Little chunk
Little chunk
Wait
Wait
Wait
Wait
Wait
Wait
Little chunk
Little chunk
Wait
Wait
Wait
Wait
Wait
Wait
etc.

These plugins want a more steady flow of even smaller chunks.  As a test, I switched to smaller chunks and low hardware latency and the visualizers are right-on with the music.

Let us think about how to accommodate this in a way that's safe for all plugins.

[Lunatique]

Thank you for the explanation.

Maybe you can implement a check-box in the options that users can check in order to switch to smaller chunks/low hardware latency, but simply provide a pop-up warning text box that tells them it could cause problems for other plug-ins, and they should only use it when they are using plugins that needs to respond fast like spectrum analyzers.

You could also take a look at typical VST hosts like Xulop Chainer and see how they handle these plugins. The playback chain I described previously (a VST mp3 player + effects) works very smoothly.

[Matt]

Coming in build 141 and later:
Changed: VST visualizers will receive data in smaller, smoother increments improving visualization quality. (requires low-latency playback like ASIO or WASAPI with the "Output mode settings..." buffering slider set to a small value)

[Lunatique]

That is great news! Thank you so much for responding so quickly and taking action right away!

I've been raving about Media jukebox/Media Center to everyone I know for years now, and it remains the only media librarian that has all the features I need. With the latest implementation of VST hosting and now the upcoming fix for spectrum analyzers, it is by far the best media librarian on planet earth, bar none!

[Lunatique]

BTW, is there a way to change the order of the effects chain? For example, if I want the spectrum analyzer to be displaying Pre-EQ information instead of Post-EQ. It seems once the plugins are installed in MC, you cannot change their order? Or do I have to simply uninstall them and then install them in the effects chain I want? If so, then perhaps being able to change their order would be nice--like a simple up and down button to move them?

[Alex B]

Did you try dragging the items in the list?

(Actually, inside the DSP window, you can find a line that says "Drag items to reorder list". However, it is possible that not all orders work correctly or as preferred.)

[Lunatique]

Did you try dragging the items in the list?

(Actually, inside the DSP window, you can find a line that says "Drag items to reorder list". However, it is possible that not all orders work correctly or as preferred.)

I don't see any of what you're talking about. I know in the DirectX host there's up and down arrows, but in the DSP Studio, there's nothing that allows dragging or changing the order of the VST plugins.

[Alex B]

[Lunatique]

Nope, I don't see that on my end. Not even when I hover the mouse over the plugins. Could it be because I'm not on the latest updated version?

[Alex B]

Nope, I don't see that on my end. Not even when I hover the mouse over the plugins. Could it be because I'm not on the latest updated version?

There is a link to the complete change log in my signature. A search for "reorder" in the log finds this:

14.0.55 (08/21/2009)

1. NEW: DSP Studio supports ordering of effects. (drag items in list to reorder)

Are you using a build that is older than 14.0.55?

[Lunatique]

Ahh, so that's the problem. I'll go ahead and update. Thanks!

[Lunatique]

I just want to say that the updated response to professional spectrum analyzers works beautifully. I'm also very impressed by how fast J River jumped on the problem and included the solution in the next update. MC14 is now one step closer to being perfect (but there are still a few problems for me here and there).

BTW, Blue Cat's vst plugins do not show up in MC for some reason, while their DX plugins do.