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[mojave]

I thought I'd start a new topic just about JRSS Surround Mixing. It is now available for both Audio and Video sources. Matt suggested that MC might add Subwoofer mixing only (other unused channels silent). However, I don't like to use the same setting for both. For me I would like to use the following:

Audio - Subwoofer mixing only (other unused channels silent) with a crossover
Video - 7.1 with JRSS mixing (If I like it as much as Dolby ProLogic IIx) with a crossover

In other words, I never want to matrix Audio, but I always want to matrix Video to 7.1. 

How about doing it with these options:

No Mixing (Unused Channels Silent)
Clone Side Channels to Rear Speakers
JRSS 2.0 Surround Sound for Audio Only
JRSS 2.0 Surround Sound for Video Only
JRSS 2.0 Surround Sound for All Sources

Then have a check box for Subwoofer. When Subwoofer is selected, the crossover frequencies become available.

I would select JRSS 2.0 Surround Sound for Video Only and check the Subwoofer box. This would not matrix Audio sources and would matrix Video sources while providing a crossover for both.

I would also like some more information about JRSS. Ultimately it comes down to how it sounds, but some technical info is always fun. When it goes from 5.1 to 7.1, does it have discreet info for each rear channel or are the rear channels identical? Does it matrix in the time domain or the frequency domain?

[Matt]

Thanks for the thread.

It's kind of a complicated matrix of possibilities that people want.

Even for 2.1, we need to talk to the soundcard with at least 3 channels.  It's probably best to just talk to it with 5.1 or 7.1 channels and leave the unused channels silent.  This means "Channels" would need to be 5.1 or 7.1.

As for how we accomplish surround mixing, I think you're saying you want:

2.0 -> 2.1
5.1 -> 7.1
7.1 -> 7.1

If a video is 2.0 (say a YouTube clip), should it play as 2.1 or 7.1?

One approach would be a checkbox "For 2.0, only convert to 2.1"

Another approach would be the mixing mode I mentioned before "Subwoofer mixing only (other unused channels silent)".  This wouldn't do 5.1 to 7.1 though.

Any advice?

(p.s. I'm going to skirt the discussion about the technicals because it's complicated enough just figuring out how it should work for now)

[jmone]

It's probably best to just talk to it with 5.1 or 7.1 channels and leave the unused channels silent.

I dislike outputting silent channels - though the approach can be fine if you are not doing anything further downstream processing.  An example of the problem faced when using "silent" ch (and one of the reasons Reclock added the ability to dynamically change the # of Channels = # of streams) is when watching 2ch TV.  If you have 2.0 in a 5.1 stream you lose the ability of the Receiver to do both bass mgt but more importantly it is unable to matrix the center channel in for the Dialogue which is now coming out of L / R (great for Stereo Music - not so good for TV etc).  Another way around this is to have predefined sound field settings for various sources so you are doing all the processing required before rendering.

My 2cents

[Matt]

I dislike outputting silent channels - though the approach can be fine if you are not doing anything further downstream processing.  An example of the problem faced when using "silent" ch (and one of the reasons Reclock added the ability to dynamically change the # of Channels = # of streams) is when watching 2ch TV.  If you have 2.0 in a 5.1 stream you lose the ability of the Receiver to do both bass mgt but more importantly it is unable to matrix the center channel in for the Dialogue which is now coming out of L / R (great for Stereo Music - not so good for TV etc).  Another way around this is to have predefined sound field settings for various sources so you are doing all the processing required before rendering.

My 2cents

We would never take away the ability to let Media Center pass the stream without altering the number of channels.  We're only talking about processing for people that _want_ 2.0 to 2.1, 5.1 to 7.1, etc. mixing.

In the cases where you want Media Center to build the subwoofer channel, it has to be sent to the soundcard in some way.  I don't think all hardware likes 3-channel output, so doing 5.1 or 7.1 output with silent channels is probably better.

[jmone]

I don't think all hardware likes 3-channel output, so doing 5.1 or 7.1 output with silent channels is probably better.

If the cards don't support 2.1 I'm not sure you have much a choice in this situation....

[mojave]

I need the silent channels for my soundcard in order to leave it at 5.1 input all the time. If there weren't silent channels, then I would always need to switch my input in the drivers to match what is actual otherwise the soundcard tries to matrix the sound to the number of output channels. I have an Asus Essence ST soundcard with the H6 daughter card for 7.1.

Matt, you are correct in what I want. I really like the "For 2.0, only convert to 2.1" option. I would definitely use that setting. If an old movie is mixed in 2.0, I like to listen to it in 2.1 plus this would give me music in 2.1.

[Matt]

Coming in build 153 and later:
NEW: Added DSP Studio > Output Format option "For stereo sources, only mix to 2.1".

[gappie]

Coming in build 153 and later:
NEW: Added DSP Studio > Output Format option "For stereo sources, only mix to 2.1".

that sounds great.
thanks mojave.. again, and matt, for sure.
i guess my english, or maybe my soundcardish, was not good enough to explain. but this goes in a direction that is really sweet.

 
gab

[mojave]

Thanks for your kind words, Gappie.

I just downloaded 14.0.153. Using WASAPI with either 5.1 or 7.1 channels and "For stereo sources, only mix to 2.1" checked I get the bass routed to my subwoofer channel. Using ASIO with the same configurations I get the bass routed to my Rear Right channel. I have also tried both 5.1 and 7.1 settings on the soundcard drivers. I am using an X-Fi Elite Pro in Audio Creation Mode. Why is the bass going to the Rear Right channel with ASIO?

For comparison, when I use AC3 Filter in the filter chain and ASIO output in MC I get the bass routed to the subwoofer channel. When I use FFDShow in the filter chain I get the bass routed to the center channel.

[mojave]

I just tried using 2.1 again using ASIO and now it is going to the sub channel. Weird.

Edit:  Nevermind, it is still going to Rear Right. I had used my soundcard drivers to route it to the sub channel and forgot a few minutes later that I had made the change.

[Matt]

I just tried using 2.1 again using ASIO and now it is going to the sub channel. Weird.

Edit:  Nevermind, it is still going to Rear Right. I had used my soundcard drivers to route it to the sub channel and forgot a few minutes later that I had made the change.

Part of the confusion may be with how Creative routes channels using ASIO.

We deliver audio in this order (same as Windows default):
Left
Right
Center
Subwoofer
Surround Left
Surround Right
Rear Left
Rear Right

This works fine in WASAPI with a Creative.  In ASIO, you may need to switch the channel routing in the card's control panel.  I don't know why this is required, but it seems like a Creative issue with their default ASIO routing to me.  I had to do this at home to make ASIO work the same way as WASAPI with an X-Fi.

[gappie]

it works fine for me with asio and xp. the sub goes to the 4th channel. the same where the sub goes with 5.1 and 7.1.

 
gab

[mojave]

I just got home and tried 2.1 with my Asus Essence ST. With both ASIO and WASAPI in MC's 5.1 and 7.1 mode the subwoofer is being routed to the Rear Right speaker.

[Matt]

I just got home and tried 2.1 with my Asus Essence ST. With both ASIO and WASAPI in MC's 5.1 and 7.1 mode the subwoofer is being routed to the Rear Right speaker.

This is working correctly for me with ASIO with a Creative X-Fi.  Whether I use 5.1 or 2.1 (inside 5.1) routes the subwoofer correctly.

The Asus drivers are known for channel swapping bugs, so perhaps this is the issue?

I'd also double-check all the wiring and sound card panel settings.  Using the 'Solo' and 'Tone' buttons in the Room Correction DSP are handy for getting this working.

[mojave]

I had some time last night to figure out JRSS Surround Mixing with my Essence ST. My cables were all connected to the correct outputs per the manual. However, the center and sub needed to be swapped and this I did using the drivers. You can swap center and sub channels and rear surrounds with side surrounds. I changed it back so no swapping was taking place in the drivers. I then physically changed the sub and center cables. Changing the channels in the drivers was messing things ups with both ASIO and WASAPI.

Once I got it working, I selected 7.1 in MC with JRSS Surround Mixing. I also checked that for stereo sources, only mix to 2.1. I really like the way this works. Movies are now all upmixed to 7.1 and music and two channel video gets converted to 2.1. The bass seems better using the MC crossover rather than the Asus driver's crossover. This is the best my system has ever sounded.

Tonight, I watched Cars (ripped Blu-ray with lossless FLAC) with the kids while my wife did some things in the kitchen. I was very impressed with the JRSS Surround Mixing when used for movies. The side to rear transitions and pans were very smooth. The volume level of the rear channels also seemed to be correct.

It is great to have MC now handle all mixing, matrixing, levels, and distance settings. Thanks.

[flac.rules]

Is it possible to get som more technical details on the upmixing algorithms that are used? How are extra channels created? How does it differ from For instance Dolby IIx and so on?

[JimH]

Is it possible to get som more technical details on the upmixing algorithms that are used? How are extra channels created? How does it differ from For instance Dolby IIx and so on?

We would rather not provide details.  Sorry.

[JimH]

You're welcome, mojave.  You deserve part of the credit.

[flac.rules]

We would rather not provide details.  Sorry.

Sorry if I am annoying you, but some broad details? Are surround -channels de-correlated in some way? Are frequency-balance changed because it will differ when you use a center instead of just stereo and so on? I don't need spesific tiny details.

[JimH]

No thank you.  Some information about the player is simply not public.

[mojave]

Now that I have all my audio processing done by MC, I decided to add in a VST parametric EQ to tame some peaks in the bass which are caused by my room. I had tried some before with two channels, but was interested to see what would happen when using surround mixing. I found that the ones I tried only affected the Front Left and Front Right channels. I even tried to order the VST plugin before the Output Format and Room Correction DSP's.

Is there a way to make the VST plugins affect all channels?

If MC has plans to implement its own parametric EQ, I like the way that FabFilter Pro-Q and DDMF LP10 Mastering EQ function. You just click on the control and move the mouse up/down to change values.

[Matt]

Now that I have all my audio processing done by MC, I decided to add in a VST parametric EQ to tame some peaks in the bass which are caused by my room. I had tried some before with two channels, but was interested to see what would happen when using surround mixing. I found that the ones I tried only affected the Front Left and Front Right channels. I even tried to order the VST plugin before the Output Format and Room Correction DSP's.

We pass as many channels as the particular VST plugin supports through the plugin.  The only limit is the plugin itself.

[mojave]

We pass as many channels as the particular VST plugin supports through the plugin.  The only limit is the plugin itself.

Limits are for losers. I tried to find an 8 channel VST parametric equalizer and failed. Since most plugins are limited to two channels, is there a way to specify which channels are routed through the plugin. I'm not sure how the data is handed from MC to the plugin, but maybe something like this would work. Rather than channels 1 & 2 going to the plugin, could we route channels 3 & 4 to the plugin? This would send the center and the subwoofer to the plugin. One could then use the plugin for frequencies below the crossover so the center channel wouldn't be affected. Some plugins also allow for the selection of either the Left or Right channel. In this case, one could select the Right channel and only apply EQ to the subwoofer channel.

I personally don't do much EQ and feel that room treatments are of greater benefit than EQ. However, it is fun to play with and can have some benefits. In other words, this isn't a high priority right now for me. 
 

[maid]

I use passthrough in my codecs when I tried to use the new DSP for videos I had to use  Source number of channels as if I tried to put it on 5.1 and ticking the spdif all I got was loud buzzing.

Can I then not make use of this feature?

[maid]

BUMP
Can someone help

[mojave]

You can't use passthrough on the codecs because you need to decode the audio, apply the DSP processing, and then re-encode.

Are you sending your output to a receiver and using it to decode? What exactly are you trying to accomplish?

[mojave]

The JRSS Surround Mixing isn't working again for me (at least from my perspective  ). I was watching a movie on Saturday (March 13) and noticed that nothing was coming out of the rear surrounds. Because I didn't have time to check into the problem, I just changed to No Mixing (unused channels silent) and turned on ProLogic IIx and the bass management in my drivers.

Yesterday I tried to fix the problem. I reinstalled the audio drivers and MC 14.0.155. I tested all outputs using the solo and tone buttons in MC14. I tried both ASIO and WASAPI. No matter what I did, I got consistent behavior, but it isn't what I want. I didn't try to go back to the previous release of MC14. I'll try that next.

Here is what is happening. With ASIO output and 5.1 or 7.1/No Mixing all channels are correctly mapped. As soon as JRSS Surround Mixing is enabled the channels change. The Center/Subwoofer and the Left Surround/Right Surround switch places. The Rear Surrounds are being routed and combined with the front Left and Right channels. When I select solo for either the Front Left speaker or Rear Left Surround, sound comes out of the Front Left speaker. This happens regardless of whether "For Stereo sources, only mix to ..." is selected. I changed the cables so it would work with JRSS, but I still don't get anything out of the rear surrounds.

I can't figure out why the ASIO channels are mapped correctly until JRSS Surround Mixing is enabled. Any suggestions?

[mojave]

The upcoming kernel streaming in version 15 fixes all my issues with JRSS Surround Mixing. I just got done testing and all channels map properly when using kernel streaming. Thanks for implementing it.

[mojave]

Now that I have solved my channel routing issues by using Kernel Streaming, I decided to test the crossovers in JRSS Surround Mixing. I played a pink noise MP3 and looked at the spectrum using GlissEQ, a multi-channel VST plugin. The subwoofer channel is getting a 6 dB/octave slope for the low pass filter. The other channels are not getting filtered at all. Therefore, any bass below the crossover set in Output Format is still going to all speakers. It isn't a crossover, but actually just a low pass filter. A crossover also includes a high pass filter.

I want a 24 dB/octave low pass filter with a corresponding 12 dB/octave high pass filter at least as a selection. Flexible bass management is a good feature for introduction in MC15.