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[glynor]

So... I just finished installing my fancy new AMD Radeon HD 6870 video card, and I'm working on getting it all set up to work well in my HTPC in the living room.  So far, it seems to be going well, but I figured I'd ask here for some "best practices".  I'm mostly looking for tips setting up the audio output on it, because this whole living with a digital receiver thing is all new to me.

First, what I have:

1. AMD Radeon HD 6870 video card (HDMI 1.4a output)
2. Denon AVR-591 Receiver

I have the Denon all properly set up for my 5.1 speakers and the room using the nice Audyssey Room Correction feature.  Up until today, I was using the SPDIF out on my onboard sound card to the Denon.  Now I can send everything across the HDMI with my fancy new sound card.  If you don't know about these cards, it has the same audio features as the AMD Radeon HD 5000 series cards (except now it is HDMI 1.4a compliant and the video decode engine has been upgraded).

Mainly, what I'm looking for is advice on setting MC up well.  If you know me at all, you know I'm no "true" audiophile.  I buy a lot of my music on the Amazon MP3 store.  But I would like to have the best possible sound quality for what I have.

Right now, I'm using these settings:

Options -> Audio:
Output Mode: WASAPI - Event Style
Output Mode Settings: defaults
Play Silence at Startup: 1/4 second
Do Not Play Silence: disabled
(everything else pretty much at the defaults, or set nicely and I don't need advice)

Options -> Video:
Playback Device: same as audio
Connection Type: Digital (supports AC3 and DTS)

DSP Settings:
Output Format:
Sample Rate: No resampling
Bitdepth: 24 bit
Channels: 5.1 channels
Output as Dolby Digital: disabled
Mixing: JRSS 2.0 (with the other two options disabled)
Subwoofer Settings are defaults, I believe.  Something outside of MC is ENABLED.
Crossover: 60Hz, Subclarity enabled.

Nothing else is enabled in the DSP.  I've toyed with the EQ as well.  However, since my Denon has the fancy Audyssey MultiEQ feature, I figured it was probably best to use that instead of the one built into MC.

I used to have the Output as Dolby Digital enabled with the SPDIF setup.  However, I know Dolby Digital uses lossy encoding so now that I have an output that can actually do multichannel PCM, I thought it was better to turn this off.  Plus, that lets me enable 24-bit output in MC.  But, I'd love feedback on all of this, so have at it.

Lastly, the Denon settings.  This might be more specific to my implementation, but I figured I'd ask.  I have the Denon set up to use it's "Multi-channel In" for most audio playback in and outside of MC.  It also has something called "Direct" in mode, but that sounds really "hollow" or something.  The manual does not describe the differences between these modes well, but the Multi-Channel In mode sounds pretty close to the Dolby Digital mode, if I enable that in MC.  In "direct" mode, all the speakers appear to work, but I'm not sure my sub works right (which would explain the "hollow" sound).

For playing back video, it passes through and auto-detects DTS and Dolby Digital and all of that, and automatically switches to those modes.  When it receives two channel stereo, I have it set to use DTS-Neo 6 mode because I like that better than Pro Logic II (which is WAY too center-heavy in my opinion).

The only other thing I'd add is that I know that using JRSS and surround sound for music playback isn't "kosher" for audiophiles, but I don't need a lecture about that.  I really like how JRSS expands the stereo sound to multichannel surround.

For everything else... I'm sure I'm doing it wrong.  Tell me how.  In particular, I'm fairly clueless on what to use under Options -> Audio for the Output mode and all of that.  The DSP settings I think are pretty good, but I'd love more feedback there.  And really anything else... Thanks!

[jmone]

Hi Glynor,
I really like HDMI Audio as the transport layer as it gives the user a couple of high quality audio choices, either decoding to LPCM or passing a bitstream according to your preference and system setup.  I like high def audio (I've convinced myself I can hear the difference  ) yet have no problem using DSP (either in MC or the Receiver) to matrix 2.0 to a 5.1 output....fyi - I presume your Denon "Direct" Mode is similar to my Yami "Pure Direct" and if so it just turns off all it's processing (including video output) so you just use it as a pure amp supposedly reducing noise etc.  Anyway, without looking at all my configs (I'm away at present):
Audio: MC Settings are WASAPI - Event Style, Output is to convert up to 96K/24Bit (the highest setting I currently have music tracks in), 5.1 output but I can not remember the Sub settings....
Video:  I have similar setting in FFDSHOW for the Audio Output from Video (I can not use MC for this as I prefer to use Reclock as the Audio Renderer - would be fine to use MC if the DSP was a transform filter over a renderer).

As a result I punch out all my Audio decoded and matrixed as MPCM yet let my receiver to all the Room Correction stuff (as I have multiple sources going into it like the Sat Box etc).  I would also never re-encode the audio back to DD/DTS!  Some will argue that they prefer (mainly in the Blu-ray space) to bitstream the DTS-HD / TrueHD though this is probably a discussion in other threads.

Thanks
Nathan

[glynor]

I presume your Denon "Direct" Mode is similar to my Yami "Pure Direct" and if so it just turns off all it's processing (including video output) so you just use it as a pure amp supposedly reducing noise etc. 

That's exactly what it is.  I looked it up on the incredibly long Denon AVR-591 thread over at AVSForum, and that's what I found.  I'm usually pretty good at decoding weird written-by-Koreans computer manuals, but this Denon manual looks like it was written more for an audio engineer than a home consumer (and by an audio engineer who had to pay a buck per word or something, it is also very terse).

As a result I punch out all my Audio decoded and matrixed as MPCM yet let my receiver to all the Room Correction stuff (as I have multiple sources going into it like the Sat Box etc).  I would also never re-encode the audio back to DD/DTS!  Some will argue that they prefer (mainly in the Blu-ray space) to bitstream the DTS-HD / TrueHD though this is probably a discussion in other threads.

I'm letting the Denon do the room correction stuff too.  Mostly just because it was very easy to set up with the Audyssey system and the microphone and everything, but also just in case I ever hook up additional components (right now it is only the HTPC).

Regarding the DD recoding, I know...  The only reason I did that before is that I was using SPDIF and DD is really the best it can carry anyway, so it was simple to just encode it that way.  I plan to set up bitstreaming for BluRay playback (we'll see if I actually ever really use it).  I just bought myself a copy of Arcsoft Total Media Theater.  Of course, since I see now they're having a 25% off sale for Halloween, and I bought it literally last Friday.   

I don't think any of my existing files have DTS-MA encoded in them currently, but I know the splitting on that with Haali's splitter can be flaky (hence the move to other splitters).  But, assuming I get some BluRay discs at some point and rip them to MKVs, how would I go about supporting DTS-MA and/or TrueHD via DirectShow filters?

Right now, I have a few with DTS, but most are DD/AC3 (my Hauppauge HD-PVR records the Dolby Digital audio from my cable receiver).  They all work fine with the existing setup.  I just figure using the Denon to decode the different formats is going to be easier and probably less troublesome, so I set FFDSHOW to just pass everything through.

The only thing I'm a little disappointed about right now with the new setup is with general system audio.  With the old system, all the regular system audio was sent in stereo across the SPDIF.  The Denon would "catch" this and apply DTS Neo 6 decoding to it.  Because the HDMI audio is actually a "real" multichannel sound device, it actually works a bit differently.  If I set Windows to use the HDMI audio as a 5.1 channel device, then it feeds the Denon in the "Multi-in" mode.  That's exactly what you want for things like games that recognize multi-channel outputs and know how to deal with them.

However, for "dumb stuff" in a "non-aware" application, like watching Flash Video in a web browser, this means that I get audio ONLY through the front left and right speakers.  No DTS Neo decoding happens, because the receiver is actually getting 5.1 audio inputs, just all of them besides the front left/right channels are "blank".   So no surround sound.  If I switch Windows to use the HDMI output as just a stereo pair, then the Denon will apply DTS Neo to that output.  MC, SageTV, and Arcsoft all know how to use the output directly, so it doesn't matter there.  But the problem is that (I think) games often don't know how to directly use the audio output will just output stereo (and it could mess up 3D positional audio support in games too).  Does anyone know anything about this issue?

[jmone]

The issue of "Silent" Channels has been worked on for a while and we now have a bunch of options thanks to WASAPI ability to dynamically change output config, eg:
1) Set you Windows Default Output to the format you want your "dumb stuff" to use (eg in your case 2.0)
2) Set WASAPI output in MC with what you want for Channel Config in the DSP (eg DSP)
3) Set you DirectShow Audio renderer to WASAPI for decoded audio and the correct channel config in the Audio Decoder (eg FFDSHOW 5.1, etc)

You will now get 2.0 for some stuff, and 5.1 for the rest and should see the recever drop then reestablish the Audio Connection on the new config.  Of course if you are going to Bitstream, this will also work fine as Windows has no idea what is in the stream anyway.

Setting your apps to bitstreaming TrueHD / DTS-HD formats is the easiest to do (if your receiver can decode them).  The only downside is that any DSP needs to then be done by the receiver, and for me I like use Reclock to do its sync with Video magic that requires it to be decoded on the PC for good quality resampling.  If you don't care about these things then BitStream is very straight forward.  The downside to decoding on the PC these formats is at present there is no way to decode DTS-HD using a free directshow filter (eg FFDSHOW only does the core).  Arcsoft etc is fine but it become a consideration of what to do when converting to MKV etc (eg you can convert it all to FLAC just fine).

Thanks
Nathan

[glynor]

The issue of "Silent" Channels has been worked on for a while and we now have a bunch of options thanks to WASAPI ability to dynamically change output config, eg:
1) Set you Windows Default Output to the format you want your "dumb stuff" to use (eg in your case 2.0)
2) Set WASAPI output in MC with what you want for Channel Config in the DSP (eg DSP)
3) Set you DirectShow Audio renderer to WASAPI for decoded audio and the correct channel config in the Audio Decoder (eg FFDSHOW 5.1, etc)

But what about games?  If I set the Windows Default Output to Stereo, won't I not be able to get 5.1 surround in games that support it?  Or will these generally be "smarter" about it like MC is?

Also, what do you mean in #3 above?  I'm not clear on how to do that.  I have MC set to use WASAPI - Event Style.  But I don't see any similar choices elsewhere for FFDSHOW or anything like that.  Also, if I'm passing most multichannel audio through to the receiver, do I want to use the Mixer feature in FFDSHOW?  Don't I want my receiver to do that part if it receives stereo audio from the decoders?

Again, since I have no reason to use anything like ReClock, I don't have a reason to decode any multichannel audio tracks on my computer.  I can just let the receiver do it (and, yes, it handles DTS-MA and TrueHD perfectly well).

[glynor]

But what about games?  If I set the Windows Default Output to Stereo, won't I not be able to get 5.1 surround in games that support it?  Or will these generally be "smarter" about it like MC is?

I just tested it with one game anyway...  With Mirror's Edge, if I have Windows set to Stereo, then the game only outputs stereo (the receiver then does the DTS Neo trick on it, but that has limited benefit).  If I have Windows set to 5.1, then it outputs surround positional 3d audio.

[jmone]

Hi Glynor,  The "Silent Channel" issue is a PITA but here is a couple of ways to manage it with Direct Show stuff:
1) WASAPI :  Any app that lets you chose WASAPI as the Audio Renderer will auto configure the output # of CH to = the Input number of channels
2) Reclock : You can config relcock to load as the default Direct Show audio renderer and then in its config either select WASAPI as output OR directsound (and it has an attentional option that will also change the audio output to = number of active channels).

So after alot of playing around ...in my HTPC I leave Windows set to 5.1 (..well due to a bug in TMT it is actually set to 7.1 but more of this later...) and then MC's DSP over WASAPI / Reclock (for DirectShow).  I use MCs DSP/Audio Renderer to do the 2.0 --> 5.1 Audio and likewise use FFDSHOW to selectively mix any 2.0 sources (eg DTV) to 5.1 so I get my center channel.  The benefit of this is I then don't have to change the sound field processing option on the Receiver as it all comes in as 5.1 regardless of the sourcec.  I used to push the audio from the PC in the native # of channels but found you then have to keep changing the sound field processing in the Receiver to suit the input it was getting.  Both MC and FFDSHOW do a pretty good job of this IMHO (*** I would prefer if JR changed the DSP so it was a transform filter NOT as part of the Audio Renderer so I could use it with Reclock and not have to use FFDSHOW to do this ***).

So for me the outcome is I get my prefered mix from MC for Audio, FFDSHOW/Reclock for Direct Show, and 5.1 for DirectSound (Windows Default).  As I don't use any DirectSound sources all is good.  I don't know how you will go with Windows Apps that you want to push out as 2.0 if it uses DirectSound but not DirectShow filters and can not be configured to select an Audio Renderer or Channel Config.

Thanks
Nathan

[glynor]

Yeah... After playing with it further this weekend, I've come away somewhat disappointed.  I've decided to keep Windows configured with "Stereo Speakers" so that my receiver can do the DTS Neo 6 processing on the two-channel audio and expand it to surround.  This works pretty well, except that when I play a game, I have to remember to go in and manually reconfigure the Windows sound settings.  Unfortunately, I haven't yet found a single game that works correctly without that setting reconfigured.

It is really too bad someone hasn't written a plugin for Windows that can recognize when only two-channel audio is being used and properly output the sound with the extra channels actually turned off (rather than just silent).  That way you could leave Windows configured properly for the number of speakers you have, but still get the benefits of the surround expansion capabilities built into your receiver (if you have one).  If someone does this, I'd happily pay for it!

I found that I could achieve mostly the same thing with most of my media applications by configuring FFDSHOW to process stereo sources with Dolby ProLogic II.  However, this doesn't work with video embedded in web pages via Silverlight and Flash plugins, and even with desktop versions of those apps (so Hulu, for example, doesn't work on the web or using their desktop application), so those end up just playing in stereo and don't use my other speakers.  I don't use those types of video that often on my HTPC, but it is really nice to be able to watch an occasional episode of The Daily Show online, or use Hulu to catch up on a show the DVR application missed because the tuners were in use.

Plus, and perhaps more importantly, I really prefer DTS Neo 6 to Dolby ProLogic II.  PLII really feels FAR, FAR too center heavy for my tastes, and only seems to kick up the surround speakers and LFE when music is playing.  For example, I have recordings of all of the old episodes of Star Trek TNG in MC.  These, obviously, are standard def only and have only stereo audio.  If I use the FFDSHOW ProLogic decoding, or the PLII decoding on my receiver, the surround speakers basically only get used for the theme music and occasional music and action sequences during the episode.  Almost all mid-range frequency sounds come out of the center speaker (which is almost everything on a show mixed for 1990s era TV).  However, if I use DTS Neo 6, the constant "engine hum" they put in all episodes of TNG (when they're on the ship) always comes from the surround speakers, and the center channel is much more narrowly defined (and generally limited to just characters speaking).  It is a subtle but nice effect.

In the end, since I was using the SPDIF out since I got my new receiver, which works essentially like keeping Windows configured to use 2 channel audio, I'd become accustomed to having the DTS Neo 6 processing on most of my stereo audio sources (except for music, where I used MC's DSP to do it).  The main reason I upgraded to the new video card was to enable multi-channel sound in games (and get access to TrueHD/DTS-MA).  It is REALLY annoying that I'll have to manually reconfigure windows before playing a game (and then remember to switch it back when I'm done), but that isn't as common as my needs with stereo audio have turned out to be.

[jmone]

I like Neo6 as well.  Anyway, you should be good to go with anything that lets you use WASAPI as it with dynamical switch to the correct channel output (either MC or Direct Show).  The problem is going to be stuff that use the Windows Default where you want both 2.0 and 5.1....I know of no solution for this.

[bspachman]

I'm struggling with something like this as well, only I'm still limited to a SPDIF connection. What I'd like to do is have my audio files play into my receiver and use the Neo6 'fake surround', but my 2channel VIDEO files play into my receiver and use PLII.

I'm guessing that since this involves switching as setting on the receiver, I'm going to be limited to programming my remote to do something clever, or finding a motherboard with multiple digital audio outputs and configuring multiple zones in MC and using 2 separately configured inputs on the receiver...

Thoughts?
brad

[glynor]

If you want to do it "your way" and you have the option to use multiple zones, that would probably be the easiest.  I'd look for a cheap soundcard that has a digital out.

However, why not just use JRSS for the audio surround?  I feel like JRSS does a better job with music than either Neo 6 or PLII, and you can do that with MC without issue using the existing hardware.  Just enable the Output format DSP and turn on JRSS.  For SPDIF output you can enable the output as Dolby Digital and MC will encode it to DD for you on the fly (like a software Dolby Digital Live encoder that works just inside MC).

[glynor]

An alternative would be to configure FFDSHOW's audio decoder to do essentially the opposite.  You can apply PLII decoding in FFDSHOW, and then set the output to encode to AC3.  This will result in the receiver "seeing" Dolby Digital input, but the actual decoding path for stereo video files would be Stereo -> PLII -> Mixer (5.1 channels) -> AC3 encoder -> SPDIF output -> Receiver.  This would apply to anything decoded by FFDSHOW, which should usually be video (unless you have a bunch of M4A files).

I still think that you'd be best served using JRSS for audio and DTS Neo 6 for your video files though.  But, to each their own.