Topic: Help a Newb. Should I buy a DAC? (Read 7190 times)

larichardson73 · « **on:** March 20, 2011, 10:44:43 am »

OK. So, about a month ago, I ripped one of my CDs to FLAC format, and compared the FLAC files to the MP3 versions I already had on my hard drive. Well, what do you know?! There's a big difference in sound quality! This was kind of a revelation to me, and now I'm wondering what the next step is. It's become a bit of an obsession. I am busy rebuilding my music library, which previously consisted of roughly 10,000 MP3s. In the meantime, I am wondering what kind of equipment I could buy to further improve the sound I am getting.

I am currently playing my files through Media Center 15, using WASAPI output mode. I have an RCA Lyra wireless transmitter connected to the computer. The RCA Lyra receiver is connected to my old stereo equipment, an Onkyo TX-900 receiver, and a pair of Boston CR7 speakers. For headphone listening, I use a pair of Bose in ear headphones.

I had pretty much decided that I was gonna get an outboard DAC. I'm on a relatively limited budget. I was thinking I'd probably get the HRT Streamer 2. However, I'm wondering if the DAC would result in any significant improvement in quality, since I am already using the RCA Lyra, which contains its own DAC, and is an improvement over the DAC on my motherboard. I'm having trouble finding any detailed specs on the Lyra, but RCA does say that it offers, "96 dB Dynamic Range, and a flat frequency response over 20-20 KHz." I compared the sound of a FLAC file, played through this system, to the original source CD, played through a DVD/CD player attached to the same receiver, and the CD did sound slightly better.

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions as to whether an outboard DAC like the HRT Streamer 2 would offer any significant improvements, or if I'd be better off spending money on something else, like a new pair of phones, or a new set of speakers (or maybe just more music

. I know that the Lyra wireless is kind of an outdated piece of equipment, and people may not be that familiar with it, but any advice is appreciated. Thanks.

DarkPenguin · « **Reply #1 on:** March 20, 2011, 06:22:34 pm »

Get the HRT Streamer II. The async usb is worth it. All the trouble I had trying to get a nice stream out to my marantz went away when I switched to the hrt.

Quote from: larichardson73 on March 20, 2011, 10:44:43 am

OK. So, about a month ago, I ripped one of my CDs to FLAC format, and compared the FLAC files to the MP3 versions I already had on my hard drive. Well, what do you know?! There's a big difference in sound quality! This was kind of a revelation to me, and now I'm wondering what the next step is. It's become a bit of an obsession. I am busy rebuilding my music library, which previously consisted of roughly 10,000 MP3s. In the meantime, I am wondering what kind of equipment I could buy to further improve the sound I am getting.

I am currently playing my files through Media Center 15, using WASAPI output mode. I have an RCA Lyra wireless transmitter connected to the computer. The RCA Lyra receiver is connected to my old stereo equipment, an Onkyo TX-900 receiver, and a pair of Boston CR7 speakers. For headphone listening, I use a pair of Bose in ear headphones.

I had pretty much decided that I was gonna get an outboard DAC. I'm on a relatively limited budget. I was thinking I'd probably get the HRT Streamer 2. However, I'm wondering if the DAC would result in any significant improvement in quality, since I am already using the RCA Lyra, which contains its own DAC, and is an improvement over the DAC on my motherboard. I'm having trouble finding any detailed specs on the Lyra, but RCA does say that it offers, "96 dB Dynamic Range, and a flat frequency response over 20-20 KHz." I compared the sound of a FLAC file, played through this system, to the original source CD, played through a DVD/CD player attached to the same receiver, and the CD did sound slightly better.

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions as to whether an outboard DAC like the HRT Streamer 2 would offer any significant improvements, or if I'd be better off spending money on something else, like a new pair of phones, or a new set of speakers (or maybe just more music . I know that the Lyra wireless is kind of an outdated piece of equipment, and people may not be that familiar with it, but any advice is appreciated. Thanks.

Frobozz · « **Reply #2 on:** March 20, 2011, 10:02:00 pm »

The RCA Lyra wireless player uses 900 MHz radio frequency to transmit the audio. That type of wireless transmission can cause a loss in fidelity compared to modern wireless audio options. My only experience with 900 MHz audio transmission is with a few wireless headphones I've tried. The 900 MHz wireless headphones did suffer in fidelity compared to similar wired headphones that cost less. One problem area is high frequencies getting rolled off or smoothed. The high frequencies are where much of the audible difference between MP3 and FLAC lies. So if you're enjoying the improved sound quality of FLAC over MP3 I'd look for a better source than the wireless Lyra, something that is going to do the high frequencies better.

The HRT Streamer II and II+ are on my short list for a new USB DAC for myself. They seem to be good. I've only briefly demoed the Streamer II+. I haven't heard the Streamer II yet. The price for the Streamer II is nice.

larichardson73 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 21, 2011, 12:31:05 am »

Wow, thanks for the feedback. Looks like I'll probably be pulling the trigger on a DAC. It'll be unfortunate to lose the wireless aspect, but I'm more concerned with sound quality at this point.

rjm · « **Reply #4 on:** March 21, 2011, 01:23:11 am »

Hope you don't mind me piling on with a related question.

I read up on the HRT Streamer II and it looks great. My stereo is about 50 feet from my computer. How would you wire the HRT up at that distance?

DarkPenguin · « **Reply #5 on:** March 21, 2011, 08:26:54 am »

Buy a netbook and plug it into that?

larichardson73 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 21, 2011, 10:13:40 am »

Otherwise you'd need either 50' of RCA cable, or 50' of USB. You might need to do some re-arranging.I'm moving in about a month, and I think I'm gonna wait until then to buy the DAC. Right now, I've got the same situation. Too much distance between the computer and the stereo.

Frobozz · « **Reply #7 on:** March 21, 2011, 10:42:57 am »

Modern wireless audio toys like the new little J River Id and similar DLNA devices are an option. They require that you have a well functioning Wi-Fi network at home. There's also similar DLNA devices that can work over a wired network connection if you happen to have wired network jacks around your home.

Long audio cable runs in the 50ish plus foot range should try to be avoided. You start to lose some audio quality at around that range. Long cable runs like that are possible with balanced audio cables. But that requires that you have gear that can do balanced connections (generally prosumer, studio and pro level gear).

Or you can get a small laptop and put the laptop right next to the audio gear to avoid the need for long cable runs.

rjm · « **Reply #8 on:** March 21, 2011, 11:09:57 am »

Thanks everyone. Anyone know if USB distance can be extended with some gadget? This would seem to be ideal since digital should have less quality loss than wireless or audio cable.

Frobozz · « **Reply #9 on:** March 21, 2011, 11:04:21 pm »

The maximum length for USB cable is 5 meters according to the spec. I don't know how well, or even if, any of the various USB range extenders work with audio devices. I would expect problems or quirkiness if going that route.

None of the consumer digital connections are designed for long runs. TOSLINK optical peters out around 10 meters. Though there are signal boosters available to extend that distance. S/PDIF coax can go about 10 meters. AES/EBU, which is the professional audio implementation of S/PIDF, can go 100 meters or more. Pro gear gets to have the fun.

Use your home network instead to stream/send/connect audio to different rooms or across inconvenient distances. Use DLNA devices or run MC on a laptop or mini pc sitting in the audio gear rack. The computer network offers more flexible options than trying to figure out long cable runs around your home.

pcstockton · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2011, 01:54:20 am »

http://www.m2tech-hiface.com.au/index.php/hiface-evo

DarkPenguin · « **Reply #11 on:** March 22, 2011, 08:08:45 pm »

Quote from: rjm on March 21, 2011, 11:09:57 am

Thanks everyone. Anyone know if USB distance can be extended with some gadget? This would seem to be ideal since digital should have less quality loss than wireless or audio cable.

There are wireless extenders for about $120. I'm tempted to try one. I would only try this if the timing is being done at the device and not on the computer. There is just no way it will work otherwise.

pcstockton · « **Reply #12 on:** March 22, 2011, 10:47:02 pm »

or this.... great device. Rankin's USB code.

http://www.halidedesign.com/bridge/

arvi · « **Reply #13 on:** March 23, 2011, 11:58:52 am »

Perhaps not a direct answer to your question, but here's my experience: I use a nuForce UDAC-2 (similar price range but some diffs relative to HRT) to output from computer to my amp. uDAC2 has a digital out so I experimented with outputting digital from uDAC2 to amp vs. analog. Much to my surprise I noticed that sound quality was much much better when taking digital out from uDAC to amp than when using analog out. This leads me to the conclusion that the DAC in my amp is better than DAC in uDAC2 (someone please correct me if I am wrong). So at this point I am not sure whether uDAC2 is helping or not-- my next experiment would be to take digital out from computer directly to amp and compare to sound that I get through uDAC2.

Based on this I would recommend that you leave your system as is for now and put the ~$150 towards any future upgrades.

Frobozz · « **Reply #14 on:** March 23, 2011, 03:02:52 pm »

The uDAC-2 is a little DAC with a colorful personality for good and bad. It colors the sound. Which is its little bit of claim to fame for good and bad.

There is an interesting blog writeup on the uDAC-2 with measurements and listening tests that confirm the colorful part of its personality. He only measured and compared the analog output from the uDAC-2. He didn't measure or compare the digital out. But given the way the analog outs measure it is understandable that you might find using the digital out from the uDAC-2 to the DAC in your receiver to be a better combo.

The uDAC-2 colors more than most DACs. So don't lump all ~$150 DACs in with the uDAC-2.

DarkPenguin · « **Reply #15 on:** March 23, 2011, 05:58:51 pm »

Quote from: arvi on March 23, 2011, 11:58:52 am

Perhaps not a direct answer to your question, but here's my experience: I use a nuForce UDAC-2 (similar price range but some diffs relative to HRT) to output from computer to my amp. uDAC2 has a digital out so I experimented with outputting digital from uDAC2 to amp vs. analog. Much to my surprise I noticed that sound quality was much much better when taking digital out from uDAC to amp than when using analog out. This leads me to the conclusion that the DAC in my amp is better than DAC in uDAC2 (someone please correct me if I am wrong). So at this point I am not sure whether uDAC2 is helping or not-- my next experiment would be to take digital out from computer directly to amp and compare to sound that I get through uDAC2.

Based on this I would recommend that you leave your system as is for now and put the ~$150 towards any future upgrades.

The uDAC2 has a lot of parts for a $150 DAC. It is an async USB device, tho. So that alone might do some good.

larichardson73 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 23, 2011, 07:59:19 pm »

Quote from: arvi on March 23, 2011, 11:58:52 am

Perhaps not a direct answer to your question, but here's my experience: I use a nuForce UDAC-2 (similar price range but some diffs relative to HRT) to output from computer to my amp. uDAC2 has a digital out so I experimented with outputting digital from uDAC2 to amp vs. analog. Much to my surprise I noticed that sound quality was much much better when taking digital out from uDAC to amp than when using analog out. This leads me to the conclusion that the DAC in my amp is better than DAC in uDAC2 (someone please correct me if I am wrong). So at this point I am not sure whether uDAC2 is helping or not-- my next experiment would be to take digital out from computer directly to amp and compare to sound that I get through uDAC2.

Based on this I would recommend that you leave your system as is for now and put the ~$150 towards any future upgrades.

Interesting. Thanks. Like I mentioned, I have an RCA Lyra wireless set up right now. It's a USB device, so I believe it is handling the D/A conversion at this point. It sounds pretty decent actually. I'm actually looking at the Asus Xonar Essence sound card right now. It looks like it has a good DAC inside of it, and actually lists better "stats" than the HRT Music Streamer. Plus, it got a good review in Stereophile. This stuff is all new to me. Anyone have any opinions on the Xonar Essence, as compared to an inexpensive external DAC like the HRT Music Streamer?

Frobozz · « **Reply #17 on:** March 23, 2011, 11:53:19 pm »

The Xonar Essence gets good reviews and is popular. I've not heard it.

The internal sound card vs. external DAC comes down to biases and preferences. My personal bias is that computer cards obsolete too fast. I don't want my audio gear living in the computer upgrade time scale. Things obsolete and disappear too fast in the computer hardware world. For example, how much longer will the PCI slot be around? It's getting replaced by the PCIe slot. If you get a PCIe card how long will that version of the PCIe be around? Will it work in the next version of PCIe? Internal sound cards also limit you to using a desktop (or mini) style computer for audio. Can't switch to a laptop or netbook. So I just find internal cards too limiting and too likely to obsolete before I'm ready to say goodbye to it. I don't want to spend $200 on a sound card that I might not be able to use in 5 years because my computer changes.

USB ports are likely to stay around for a while. USB ports are available on desktops, laptops, netbooks, and even iPads.

If you get a true DAC (something that has TOSLINK or S/PDIF in addition to USB) you have something that will be useful in some way for a long time. Even if USB goes away the TOSLINK or S/PDIF will still be around and it will still be able to function as a DAC.

So I consider the external DACs to be more future proof and more like audio gear than computer gear.

My current predicament is that I have a FireWire audio interface (an M-Audio FireWire 410). FireWire lost to USB and now FireWire ports are getting hard to find on laptops. You can still find FireWire ports but they're on the premium laptops that cost a premium. So I'm looking around now for a USB DAC. I've had my FW410 for over a decade and it's getting near the end of its computer peripheral life. It will still be useful on my desktop for at least a few more years. But for laptop use I'm going to need to find something USB.

larichardson73 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 28, 2011, 12:40:25 pm »

Well, I sprung for the Xonar Essence. It sounds great, and is a definite upgrade to my previous set-up. I would highly recommend it. After upgrading my music collection from MP3 to FLAC (a process which will continue for a long time), and upgrading the sound card, I am really happy with the sound I am getting. I don't know what's next. Perhaps a new set of headphones.

I can't believe I lived with MP3s for as long as I did. Thanks for all of the responses to my post. They were really helpful.

ohyeah · « **Reply #19 on:** May 11, 2011, 02:29:51 pm »

For Wifi: Micromega airstream
Wired: Cambridge dac magic for entry range

It will really change your life!

Laz Baz · « **Reply #20 on:** May 20, 2011, 06:49:45 am »

Quote from: larichardson73 on March 20, 2011, 10:44:43 am

OK. So, about a month ago, I ripped one of my CDs to FLAC format, and compared the FLAC files to the MP3 versions I already had on my hard drive. Well, what do you know?! There's a big difference in sound quality! This was kind of a revelation to me, and now I'm wondering what the next step is. It's become a bit of an obsession. I am busy rebuilding my music library, which previously consisted of roughly 10,000 MP3s. In the meantime, I am wondering what kind of equipment I could buy to further improve the sound I am getting.

I am currently playing my files through Media Center 15, using WASAPI output mode. I have an RCA Lyra wireless transmitter connected to the computer. The RCA Lyra receiver is connected to my old stereo equipment, an Onkyo TX-900 receiver, and a pair of Boston CR7 speakers. For headphone listening, I use a pair of Bose in ear headphones.

I had pretty much decided that I was gonna get an outboard DAC. I'm on a relatively limited budget. I was thinking I'd probably get the HRT Streamer 2. However, I'm wondering if the DAC would result in any significant improvement in quality, since I am already using the RCA Lyra, which contains its own DAC, and is an improvement over the DAC on my motherboard. I'm having trouble finding any detailed specs on the Lyra, but RCA does say that it offers, "96 dB Dynamic Range, and a flat frequency response over 20-20 KHz." I compared the sound of a FLAC file, played through this system, to the original source CD, played through a DVD/CD player attached to the same receiver, and the CD did sound slightly better.

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has any opinions as to whether an outboard DAC like the HRT Streamer 2 would offer any significant improvements, or if I'd be better off spending money on something else, like a new pair of phones, or a new set of speakers (or maybe just more music . I know that the Lyra wireless is kind of an outdated piece of equipment, and people may not be that familiar with it, but any advice is appreciated. Thanks.

Hi all,
I am William. I just joined and already hit the jackpot!!
I will try to keep my post relevant to this post and then ask a few questions as well.
1. After reading many Forums advice I have decided I will rip all my Redbook CDs to FLAC @44.1Khz/16bit (using EAC and/or MediaMonkey) resolution and store them in 1TB external HD. I use LG HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GMA-4020B-quite old- for ripping. Store all other high res up to 192Khz/24 Bit FLAC downloads as well (many record companies are going the route of 96/24 and 192/24 resolution). Later convert all my vinyls as well.
2. FLAC lossless will sound better than compressed MP3. However it will depend, in my opinion, on what equipment is used for ripping and what Amp/Receiver is for playback. I have Onkyo TXNR609 which is capable of playing FLAC up to 96Khz/24 Bit but not 196/24.
3. As you found that the CD sounded better than the FLAC, I too found this to be the case. Therefore I hope my questions will elicit answers for you as well as for me.
Q1. In my case is the FLAC/CD sound difference because of the ripping equipment, data access from the HD or the Receiver? Though the Receiver seems to have quite a high spec with 192/24 DACs.
Q2. What can I use or do to be able to play the 192/24 music files from the HD without costing me a fortune? I use Cambridge Audio 650BD to play discs up to 196/24 resolution but I would like to download individual 192/24 tracks rather than buy the discs.
Any advice/help will be most appreciated.
William

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Author Topic: Help a Newb. Should I buy a DAC? (Read 7190 times)