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[Captor]

Hi
I am coming from the Itunes world to JRiver. I have converted my Wav-files into Flac-files. They are on the harddrive library the same way as they are in Itunes. Meaning: Artistfolder\Albumfolder-songtitles. I can make JRiver to
place the albums and songs in the same way. BUT I wonder is that the best way? There are so many way to do in JRiver so I am total confused. So I ask you guys, what is the best way to do? How to place the files? In the future I will also load my ipod with the music in the JRiver library. I also want the library well organized and easy for search. I dont know really what to think of in this matter. Cons and Proīs ? Any hints, please?

[MrC]

There is really no best way.  Different users will have different ideas about how they like to organize their physical audio files.

Here's what I like, because it is easy*.

- Audio files are basically in a folder structure such as ...\Music\<Artist>\<Album>.
- Tracks are labeled as <Track #> <Name>.

* Actually, I do more than just this, including adding a Disc # for multi-disc albums, and place compilation tracks (eg. various artists) into a (Multiple Artists) folder.  This is done automatically.  But we can discuss this later when you're ready.

But the location of the files is not so important to MC.  Rather, the audio tags maintained by MC's database and the physical tags inside each track are what you'll want to maintain.

With this, you can easily a) sort tracks using MC's view schemes, b) filter and search for tracks, and c) easily relocate physical files based upon the tags.

How about starting here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Center
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Category:Frequently_Asked_Questions

[medvedik]

Basically I do the same as MrC.

Same folder structure. I only name the file artist - album - tracknumber - songtitle

for various artist albums: albumname - artist - tracknumber - songtitle

Then i can already see the full information when i see the physical file, and where it should belong.

I don't give double albums a number in disc#, but I add it in the album name [album name [CD1]], disadvantage is when u do online search, sometimes it doesn't find the right album.

[juice370]

Great tips guys. Do you control all by Album Artist as opposed to just Artist. I have tons of Trance where by the main Album Artist (ATB as an example) mixes tracks from other artists, so each track artist is different. How do you handle these to keep them altogether?

Also is it possible to add Album Artist as a permanent header on the top bar thingy?

Cheers
Ian

[MrC]

Some albums beg to be listed under Various Artists (or Multiple Artists), but some can go either way.  Certain soundtracks, for example, may be predominately by a single artists, but which contain one or more tracks by other artists.  In such cases, I'll use Album Artist and individual track artists (eg. Artist).  MC provides [Album Artist (auto)], which is explained here:

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Album_Artist_and_Album_Artist_%28Auto%29

To learn about how these work in practice, add Artist, Album Artist and Album Artist (auto) columns to one of your views (or create a new one).  Then you can see how MC fills in and uses the values.

I have various views that allow browsing as I want for various circumstances.

Are you asking about adding a new column to a Panes view, as in the attached image?

[medvedik]

MrC,

I have a small question about the panes. Each time I activate the name changes in "Panes". Is there a way to change that, so that it keeps the original name?

Thanks already.

[Captor]

Thanks for now, guys! There I got some in put how YOU are doing. Thatīs what I want so if there are more good ways so please let me know.

MrC: the location is not important for MC but it is important for me. I am a person or order:-)
So far I have done the same way as you. Except for one different thing. I have taken away the <track#> for the filename. I only use <name>. Because MC gives the files (songs) tracknumber anyway I beleive.
It looks better without the word "track#" before every filename in the library. I use just the filename in the library in the albummapp. Will there be a drawback later on because of this? Would it be better to have the track# too? I mean it feels useless because it only says for example: track#  A world of hurt, track# Along for the ride, track# Put it right back and so on. It Donīt say: Track1 A world of hurt, Track2 Along for the ride, Track3 Put it right back. That is the way I would like it. Or even better: 1, A world for the hurt. 2, Along for the ride. 3. Put it right back... and so on. But I can not find a way to do this. But there is maybe a reason for that?

[juice370]

Yeah MrC like your screenshot. How do I make it a permanent fixture in the header. Each time I reboot it goes missing again. What's the best way to learn about the extensive features in this software, wiki or just play with it? No doubt this software is a powerhouse and the best available, its just internalising the feature list.

Cheers
Ian

[MrC]

Try this.  Create a new view and customize it to your liking.

1) Select Audio in the tree, and right click.
2) Select Add Library View...
3) Select Panes (genre, artist, album)
4) Change the name in the Name text area to a name of your choosing.  You can change it later too.
5) In the tree, the new view that you just named will appear under Audio.  Right click that view and Customize View...
6) Add the categories you want under Show Categories in This Order.  For example, add Artist, Album Artist  (Album Artist (auto) is already there), in the order you want.  You can also remove any categories such as Genre, that you don't want.

You should now have the basics of a new view.  Continue playing with customizations to see how things work.  This search of the Wiki has some (dated but) useful info:

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=scheme&go=Go

Note that you can also add columns to the panes header by right clicking one, and adding the column.  Remember to save the view.

[Captor]

Hm... this tread is slipping ou of my hands.
MrC, (or some one else) do you have any suggestion for my question above?

[tunetyme]

I do not know about iTunes library.  

I believe that the essential element in database management is to try to create unique file folders.  On my music drive I keep 3 primary music folders. Rock (my largest collection), Jazz (next largest) and Music (with sub folders like country, classical, new age etc.).  I have over 3,000 artists and over 3,000 Albums and keeping this straight is essential for me. When you have a small number of files it is less important to develop a good structure.  All this adds a little work but it is very helpful when I am working with my folders in windows.  Because there are so many groups with "The" in front of their name I change it to "Rolling Stones, The".  If I didn't then the majority of my folders would be under "T".  I also reverse names "Adams, Bryan".  Again this helps to keep files folder unique and easy to find.  When I Rip a disc I use the secure mode and I still favor "EAC" because of the accurate rip feature they offer.   MC has a very good ripper and is certainly on par with EAC.  However, I want to know if one or more of the tracks I rip is less than 100% accurate.  If they are not accurate then I mark the file with (def) in the song title.  This way I can replace the file at a later date if and when I can get a clean copy of the that song.

I do not have a separate file folder for various artists.  I rip them the same way I do albums and create a file folder for each artist\album\song title.  I don't add the track number to the song title as MC tracks all that info and is created in the tag unless it is a WAV file.  Again, this keeps all the tracks associated with a given artist in the same folder (Artist).  When I tried using other methods I had a difficult time with album art.  Some of this has been addressed with MC's ability to look up album art.  I used to keep various artist in a separate folder but as my collection grew it became a problem to maintain.  I also strive to make sure that all my song titles have each word capitalized.  There are some great edit capabilities within MC that I use all the time.

Under tools\library tools\clean file properties: You can select which fields you want to operate on like Album, Artist. Artist (Auto), Album Artist, filename (name).  These are the ones I use all the time.  I can convert underscores to spaces, remove leading and trailing blanks, change spacing to single space, move articles to the end (I don't use this since I do it when I rip) and Fix capitalization Upper Case All Words.  When I import new music this is one of the first things that I run.  This is a great way to make all your files standardized.  If you are operating on a single file you can always use the Tag editor to make the changes you want.  

You can also use this feature to change the names of the actual files (filename (path)). Beware that this could cause some problems as this may create new folders and it will move the files to the new folder but it does not move album art if you store it in the file folder with the songs (I do).  So in that case you need to move the album art and delete the original file folder.  I don't use this tool very often, I prefer find and replace when I deal with the path filename.

Sometimes I have a problem with the tags as written by EAC.  In that case I can use (under library tools) fill properties from file name.  It will populate artist, album, and song title.  If you have a various artist folder this becomes very messy.

I have been adding a lot of CD's this past year and I am approaching 40,000 tracks.  I store everything lossless Flac because there is more and more hardware that will play flac files.  APE is a superior compression program.  Either one is an excellent choice for lossless format.

There are many others who can help you with syncing to your iPod or other portable devices.

The tag editor is a very useful (under action window Tag) tool.  Under Filename you can edit the filepath song title and it will rename the song title (and it stays in the same file folder).  

There are so many options to use in MC to maintain your music files.  In my opinion, it is the best database by far and I haven't found a better player.

Tunetyme  

  

  

[Captor]

Hello Tunetyme
Thank you very, very much for your excellent comment. Thats exactly what i am looking for.
Very helpful!
I have my library in artist folder and in that are the different albums with that artist. You are doing it the other way. Your suggestion is one folder per album.
I have so far not have any problem with albumart but I do not have the same amount as you.
OK, I will do that myself. But since I have it the iTunes way I have som work ahead:-)
Me also dont add tracknumber since I noticed that MC takes care of that. But how will it look like in Ipod
I wonder? Will there be tracknumbers?
I havenīt try the file clean properties yet. Thanks for that tip too!

[MrC]

Me also dont add tracknumber since I noticed that MC takes care of that. But how will it look like in Ipod
I wonder? Will there be tracknumbers?

MC isn't taking care of it (as if by magic!), rather it is the tags inside of the audio tracks that give MC the track info it needs to present to you (for sorting, etc.).

It is useful to learn about 1) MC's internal database which manages those audio file tags and can pull/push said metadata to the audio files and uses this internal metadata for views, sorting, etc., 2) the audio file tags (i.e. metadata), and 3) the physical file names of the audio files on disk.   Its is worth learning how MC helps manage these, and since you're one who likes order, this is where you can gain the control you want.  Focus first and foremost on (1), then use MC to manage (2) and (3).

How you name files is entirely up to you; one reason to include tag values in file names is to help recover tags should, say, one accidentially erase the tags.  You can have MC pull the tags from the file names.  For example, in folder schemes where you already have [Artist]\[Album], and track names as [Track #] - [Name], MC can parse the most important tag information to re-populate the tags.  This is just one example.  For someone who wants to view audio files in Windows Explorer, for example, having track numbers in file names is useful for sorting the file list.

Again, focus on (1) above, then complete (2) and finally manage (3) after you feel confident using MC's tools.

[tunetyme]

I think you may have misunderstood me.  For example, I have all my rock music under \Rock\Artist Name\Albums (all albums by the same artist)\Tracks (no track numbers).  I do everything else in the database itself.

Tunetyme

[tunetyme]

MrC:

No offense, but I believe your comment about track numbers may be valid for programs outside of MC but, I back up my database regularly and all the track info is stored there.  If I am not mistaken you could also export those files with tack numbers in the song titles to an iPod or other device.  If I accidentally deleted tag info I could restore a back up and then highlight the missing tags then write tag info to the tags.  Track sequence is only of value if you decide to play an entire album or burn a backup CD.  For me the whole benefit of MC is to be able to mix my own music sequences.  I very rarely listen to an entire album by a single artist.  We are all different and there is no one right way.

You mentioned Artist (Auto).  I don't think it is working correctly (IMO).  The problem is, if you have Artist in the Pane window and a one hit wonder it won't show up in the Pane listing.  If you have Artist (Auto) as the Artist Pane then it will be listed under various artist or multiple artists.  Personally, I think that auto artist should be a a logic field that is either a single artist album or various (multiple) artist album.  I created a user field for that purpose (0 single artist 1 Various Artists).  Logical fields are not an option in MCs' database.   Whenever I import a CD with Various Artist I copy Artist to Artist (Auto) and mark the CD as a Various Artist Album.  It is time consuming but this way the Artist pane woks for either Artist or Artist (Auto).  If I could toggle off or delete Artist (Auto) I would do it in a heart beat. (AKA a New York minute)

I think this is a little off topic, if you would like to discuss this more start a new thread.  Let's try to help Captor set up his file system first.  I think Captor's question is a valid one, as most people do not have a database management background.  In fact, this might be a good topic for the Wiki for new users.  I would be happy to work with you in developing a write up to be submitted for revue.  We could develop it as a thread where we could get everyone's comments and then do a final write up.  What do you think?   

Tunetyme

[MrC]

MrC:

No offense, but I believe your comment about track numbers ...

But my reply was not directed at you, nor your methods.  Captor asked what were the pros and cons of file naming, organization, etc.  I think my comments gave a viewpoint, and expressed a "whatever works for you" sentiment.

[tunetyme]

I didn't think they were directed at me.  I just wanted to show that there is a back up for track numbers and I did not want to offend you.  I still think developing a piece for the Wiki would be a good idea.  Are you game?

[MrC]

You mentioned Artist (Auto).  I don't think it is working correctly (IMO).  The problem is, if you have Artist in the Pane window and a one hit wonder it won't show up in the Pane listing.  If you have Artist (Auto) as the Artist Pane then it will be listed under various artist or multiple artists.  Personally, I think that auto artist should be a a logic field that is either a single artist album or various (multiple) artist album.  I created a user field for that purpose (0 single artist 1 Various Artists).  Logical fields are not an option in MCs' database.   Whenever I import a CD with Various Artist I copy Artist to Artist (Auto) and mark the CD as a Various Artist Album.  It is time consuming but this way the Artist pane woks for either Artist or Artist (Auto).  If I could toggle off or delete Artist (Auto) I would do it in a heart beat. (AKA a New York minute)

Maybe I don't understand what you are saying isn't working correctly.  '"Ma" Rainey' the one hit wonder seems to say otherwise:

[tunetyme]

Here is a link that goes into it more fully.  I have my work around so it isn't a major issue at this point.  This isn't the primary issue of this thread.  We need to focus on Captors issues.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=62038.msg416654#msg416654

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=62024.0

[jack wallstreet]

Another viewpoint on the actual storage of files.

I let MC tags manage my sorts and everything I do in MC.  As a result, my storage of actual files has nothing to do with "sorts" but is done for file management purposes (unrelated to MC).  I use a filename structure: artist-album-song name.  I store the files in several directories that break up the alphabet by artist name, e.g., "folder A-J" and "folder K-Z".  I do that to make it easier and quicker to do file finding and manipulation in other programs that are not as fast as MC.  I do not use album folders or anything like that.  This directory structure also works fine for Itunes, which I also have to use along to sync my Iphone (using MCiS).

[MrC]

Here is a link that goes into it more fully.  I have my work around so it isn't a major issue at this point.  This isn't the primary issue of this thread. 

And RickCa has explained how it works, and it works correctly.

We need to focus on Captors issues.

As far as I can read, there was one remaining question re: track numbers, which I responded to.  But you seem to have a good handle on this, so I'll follow your lead.

[Captor]

Thank you, tunetyme, for your New York minute:-)
I would appretiate to sort out the database management because I beleive that is the base for everything.
And that could be a topic for Wiki for newbies like myself.
The problem is that in 2 days I will go on holiday for 3 weeks. But everyone fller free to comment. Everything is of
interest and of course I will come back.

Me too almost always play mixed artist randomly. But sometimes maybe it is an advantage to have the tracknumbers in the library stil. For example together with other software than MC.

I do not have any question about the various artist stuff. My problem is more like what happends in the filestrukture
on the harddrive when ripping. For now anyway.

Yesterday when I ripped a CD to flac-files there was no tracknumbers in the musicfolder in the filestrukture
on the harddrive. The settings in MC is set to exclude tracknumbers. In MC there will be tracknumbers still.
But not in the filestrukture.
When I change in MC to include tracks there will be tracknumbers in the filestrukture. It looks like this: Folder "Van Morrison" new folder "Itīs to late to stop now" Then there are the songs like 02 - Warm love, 03 - Into the mystic.
That is all great. Looks very organized and easy. But the old song from iTunes looks like this: 02 Warm love, 03 Into the mystic... It is different because when I ripped in iTunes the tranknumber was a part of the songname. When I rip in MC it looks like the tracknumber is separated. So my next question is, how will this MC ripping look like in my
iPod?

Is it better to use other settings in MC? Of course I can do the hard work and try every setting in MC but iīm afraid that will take some time... so if someone have experience or tip, please let me know.

[tunetyme]

Captor

I am not the best person to help you with your question as I use EAC to rip my CD's.  I've looked at the MC Rip function and I am not sure how to advise you.  There are many others who are more knowledgeable than I am about this feature.  I suggest you start a new thread and ask that specific question.  You might try searching for other threads on this topic first.

What I try to do is set up a music drive or an area on your hard drive.  I use my F: drive.  I have 3 main folders Rock, Jazz, Music.  For Rock and Jazz my folder looks like this: F:\Rock\Artist\Album.  For my music folder I have other kinds of music that are not my primary music.  In this case I have it set up as F:\Music\Country\Artist\Album.  In the Music folder I have Country, New Age, Classical, World etc.  I find if I store everything by their primary Genre it is easier for me to find and manage as that is how I think about music.

Various Artist CD's:  This is an area of debate as to what is the best method to store these. I use the same method I use for single artist albums.  So, if I have 10 different artists on one CD then I create a file folder under each of the artists.  For example: F:\Rock\Bad English\Power Ballads Disc 2\When I See You Smile.Flac.  This album folder is created under each artist.  I like this method because I can use the same format when I use the "Fill Properties From Filename"

The other method used is F:\Rock\Various Artist\ Power Ballads Disc 2\Bad English\When I See You Smile.Flac.  Both methods work fine with MC.  It really depends on what make the most sense to you.  It doesn't matter to MC which method you use.

There is a lot of info that you can find by searching the forum.  Most of the questions have already been asked several times.  If you can't find what you are looking for then start a new thread and ask.  Everyone here is happy to help you any way they can.

As I've said before I don't use an iPod.  It is my understanding that you can structure whatever you want in terms of file structure that you sync to your iPod.  It will convert your Flac files to MP3's or what ever format you are using and use the naming convention you choose.  

Tunetyme

[Captor]

Thanks Tunetyme, your comments are very appretiated for me. And maybe there is some who use MC as ripper who can come up with something. I am in the learning stage right now regarding MC.

I have already looked a lot in the forum before i tryed to start this topic. It is not always easy to find things. But I will give it a new try when coming home from my vacation.

About Ipod I only want Wav-files in that. Mp3-files have to bad soundquality in my opinion. And I beleive converting Flac to Wav donīt work. So at the moment I have 2 librarys. One for MC and the other for the iPod. I would like to use the flac files in the ipod too but I dont think that works. They will be converted to mp3. I will buy a new mp3-player later. I know there are better players out there than iPod. Thats why I would like to prepare the library for that.
The downside with buying other player is that there are maybe no travel loudspeakers for them. In that way the Ipod is outstanding. I travel a lot so I want to have a player with a descent loudspeaker for travel.
But that is an later issue:-)

[juice370]

I'll second that, thanks for the great comments and ideas guys, appreciate it.

[tunetyme]

Captor:

I haven't had any difficulty convert Flac to WAV.  You should be able to sync to your iPod converting your Flac to Wav.  If you are experiencing an error doing this then start a new thread to get input from people who use the same hardware as you.  I am sure there are plenty of people who can help you with that.  I'm sorry, I can't.

Tunetyme

 

[Captor]

Thanks tunetyme, I will look into that when I come back from my vacation. That would solve a problem for me because I hav a lot of hardware already for iPod. I have read that the iTunes convert it to mp3 before when  downloading the files. But maybe I can convert to Wav BEFORE doing that. Thanks for all your help.
I am back in 3 weeks. Bye for now...