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[Poison Dan]

A question about replay gain: what should MJ8 normally do when playing non-analyzed files, with replay gain enabled in the DSP studio ?

IMHO, it should not use any gain at all. Just play it with |PLS|0 dB, no matter what the manual adjustment is set to. Or am I wrong ? I would appreciate it if at least this behaviour could be provided as an option.

Here's what I've done with a quick test:
1. I analyzed the replay gain for one track. The RPG value was -14.740.
2. I played the track with MJ8, RPG disabled.
3. I enabled RPG in the DSP, with a manual adjustment of |PLS|12.
4. I played the track again, it sounds slightly quieter (which appears to be normal, because -14.740 |PLS| 12 = -2.740 dB total change)
5. I played another track (from another album), that is not yet analyzed. The track seemed to play quite a bit louder than the previous one (step 4). Of course, when I looked at the RPG option in the DSP, I noticed a total change of |PLS|12 dB (because the RPG value of the track is 0 and 0 |PLS| 12 = 12 dB). If this is the default behaviour (which it appears to be), this means that, whenever RPG is enabled and MJ8 starts playing a track that is not analyzed, I will jump out of my chair because suddenly playback is REALLY LOUD.
6. While the track was still playing, I disabled RPG. The track sounded even louder for a couple of seconds, and then it sounded REALLY quiet.
7. I enabled RPG again, and it played back at a normal level for a couple of seconds, and then it got a bit louder again.

After this experiment, I analyzed the gain for this second track, and it was -14.970.

These two track were both APE files.

So the playback level seems to fluctuate somewhat with non-analyzed files. Can anybody of J River tell me how it is supposed to work, and if this behaviour I'm seeing is a bug, or is to be expected (and because of what reason) ?

TIA,

Poison Dan

Listening to: 'Pu####' from 'Ænima' by 'Tool' on Media Jukebox

Media Jukebox PLUS 8.0.284
Install Path: D:\Program Files\J River\Media Jukebox\

CPU: Intel Pentium III 839 MHz MMX
Memory: Total - 523 MB, Free - 303 MB
OS: Microsoft Windows XP  Workstation 5.1  (Build 2600)

Internet Explorer: 6.0.2600.0000
ComCtl32.dll: 6.00.2600.0000
Shlwapi.dll: 6.00.2600.0000
Shell32.dll: 6.00.2600.0000
wnaspi32.dll: 4.70 , ASPI for Win32         DLL, Copyright © 1989-2001 Adaptec, Inc.
Aspi32.sys: 4.70

Edit: the board censored my "listening to" info !!! I can't believe this ! Well, the song is supposed to be "Push-it", but then without the hyphen

[JimH]

Poison Dan,
Could you check the replay gain site on this?  We just don't have the bandwidth right now to provide much help on it.  

You may also try reading past messages on this.

What you're seeing is normal.  

Jim

[Poison Dan]

I will check the replay gain web site some more in detail.

But I will probably still add an entry to the wish list for "The Option To Disable Manual Adjustment For Non-Analyzed Files". Until a similar feature is implemented, using RPG is a bit problematic for me.

I would like to hear some feedback from other RPG users, though... How do you cope with non-analyzed files with RPG enabled in the DSP ?

[sekim]

Poison Dan,

Why not analyze all files and be done with it?

When you change the levels manually in RG it is like turning the gain up on an amp. No wonder you jumped out of your chair. Analyzed files are almost always quieter then non-analyzed files. Hence, the need to increase the gain manually in DSP for listening without turning your speaker volume levels up.

Once the files have been analyzed there is no need to re-do them. Simple answer: Do them all and quit jumping out of your chair.

[KingSparta]

MachineHead

i selected 2,600|PLS| files out of 131,000 and it is still working on them 500 left this morning when i left home.

[sekim]

Good thing for Holidays. Have you ever tried more then that?

[Poison Dan]

MachineHead,

I actually expected this answer. After I posted my previous message I thought "maybe I should have mentioned not to tell me to analyze all my files"

I will definately analyze all files from my CD collection, but I don't really want to analyze music I download. I don't value music I download as much as music that I buy on CD. I don't import downloaded songs in MJ8, and I don't even bother to properly tag them. The only purpose for me is to sample some songs or albums and check if they are good enough to buy.

So it happens a lot that I just want to quickly listen to a few downloaded songs, or even listen to a partially downloaded song. In these cases, it doesn't make much sense for me to analyze them all.

That's why I think an option "don't apply manual adjustment to non-analyzed files" will help me. This would of course be disabled by default.

[KingSparta]

Well if I had a faster computer I am sure it would also go faster.

I was talking to gateway the other day, they are about to change their case design (I see it nice looking) but they are not selling full towers. So I will prob go elsewhere to get it.

About selecting many files, I am not sure if the more files you select the slower it goes or not. I don't see why it would unless it eats up memory and then started to use virtual memory.

[sekim]

Poison Dan,

How about a smartlist or playlist maybe to get around this? I can see why you don't want to analyze such files. I guess there may be a possibility of a work around in the next version but I wouldn't hold my breath for MJ8.

KingSparta,

I was just wondering if you had ever done more files than this. And if so, how long did it take?

Listening to: 'Shake Down' from 'Nocturnal' by 'Four 80 East' on Media Jukebox

[KingSparta]

No never have, but i noticed 1 file would not analysis.

it reports "error" if i do it again, but no reason why

It is 96kbps however.

i may delete it if J river don't want to look at it.

[Callithumpian]

>"don't apply manual adjustment to non-analyzed files"
has got to be the smart way to go on this.

Some files with odd sample rates will not analyse (not in MJ, that is) and other files, as PoisonDan says, that have been downloaded for sampling, are not worth the trouble of analysis.

It seems sensible for MJ to take the attitude that the manual gain is a number to applied ONLY as compensation for files that have been subject to Gain Ananlysis.

[dragyn]

I agree with Poison Dan on this one.. I just listened to a non-analyzed file and it didn't sound so great. ugh. Good thing clip protection was on.

Right now I just have it turned off until further development.

[Matt]

For files that aren't analyzed, MJ uses the average gain of all the analyzed files in Playing Now.  If none of the files in Playing Now are analyzed, that'll be "0"... maybe it should be "-6" in this case, but it's just a matter of opinion.

Your best bet is to set the Replay Gain preamp to "0".

Take care.

-Matt

[Scronch]

Matt> For files that aren't analyzed, MJ uses the average gain of all the analyzed files in Playing Now. If none of the files in Playing Now are analyzed, that'll be "0"...

That sounds like an excellent solution to me.

PD> The only purpose for me is to sample some songs or albums and check if they are good enough to buy.

Then who cares if they are analyzed?  Just turn on an on-the-fly limiter like Audiostocker when you're listening to these temporary files.

Just my 2 cents...

Scronch

[Poison Dan]

Scronch,

An on-the-fly limiter sounds good, but I'm not sure if Audiostocker is what I'm looking for. Apparently the minimum range of amplification is 12 dB, so I think it will not help me, because I already use |PLS|12 dB as manual adjustment.

It would really help if I could set a limit to the "total change" value in the RPG DSP option. If I could set it to a maximum value of e.g. 4 dB, then everything would be okay. Non-analyzed files would still sound a bit louder than analyzed ones, but not as much as now.

Another option I'm considering is using that-other-player (*cough* Winamp *cough*) for non-analyzed files. As I said, these files are only for sampling: I don't import them and I don't tag them, so in a way it makes sense to just use Winamp for these, and use MJ8 for the music that really matters (my collection).

I do agree using the average RPG value of the "Playing now" files on non-analyzed files is a great idea. I didn't know this before, but now that I do can take this into account when doing any further tests.

Poison Dan