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[NWLanding]

I'm gearing up to update my HTPC, which has an outdated Asus M2NPV-VM MB. and as I wade through my MB options I'm also trying to understand and evaluate new options for getting my J River library over to my Onkyo TX-NR808 receiver. My current configuration uses a SPDIF extension card coax out to my Adcom GDA-600 DAC then to my Onkyo via RCA plugs. I've done no objective testing but this setup seems marginally better than using Onkyo DLNA, which I assume is due to the Adcom DAC (is my assumption that the Onkyo DLNA is a bench mark for the receiver flawed?). J River Media Center meets my requirements for playing my music so I want to keep this leg of the triad going. BTW I'm using WASAPI Event Style output to the Adcom.

My question centers on my limited but increasing (albeit minuscule) understanding of USB DACs, and hence my subject line. I'm sure that at some point my Adcom DAC is going to croak and perhaps I should take advantage of my rebuild to jump to a new approach. But with the wide range in pricing in USB DACs I'm having a hard time understanding how to make an informed decision on the leg from my HTPC to the receiver without exceeding the limitations of the mid range capabilities of the TX-NR808. Based on what I've read it seems like a sound card is to limiting, but I like the price point of ~$200. I don't need the powered head phone capabilities of some DACs. Ideas and suggestions are welcomed. Could raise the ceiling to $300 if there's a distinct possibility for improvement.

I listen through Polk Audio TSi400 Floorstanding Speakers as two channel but occasionally I do all channel to my  Polk CS-10 center, Polk Audio PSW111 Subwoofer and Bose Acoustimass rear speakers.

I'm not interested in changing out any of the other components at this time. Just the HTPC to Receiver portion.

[pcstockton]

I have tried many DACs.  At that price point I would get a Beresford.  Very nice man.  Cool to be able to get the designer and owner of the company on email if needed.

Not sure if his USB input accepts hires though for what that's worth.

Good luck!

PS - If you plan on really overhauling things (including the Onkyo) check out Naim Audio's UnitiQute.  about $2K. One box, upnp renderer, wireless if you want, KILLER build quality, best sound possible.  I would expect it to be found @ ~$1.5K in a year's time.  Just add speakers!

-Patrick

[paul.raulerson]

$200 - $300 is a little tough, though assuming you mean two channel -

HRT Streamer II - $150  http://www.amazon.com/HRT-Music-Streamer-II-Resolution/dp/B0038O4UFQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328150483&sr=8-1

MF V-DAC II (a little bit more at $349) but really nice.  http://www.amazon.com/Musical-Fidelity-V-DAC-II-Asynchronous/dp/B005K8CSZ2/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1328150483&sr=8-7

Both of these have Async USB connections that are probably going to be superior to much else in the price range. They both sound very good too.

Upscale a tiny bit more and you get into the Peachtree DAC*IT, which does not have Async connections, but sounds really really good I think. In fact, I have one on our living room system and it sounds much more like a $3000 DAC than one that costs only $495. http://www.amazon.com/Peachtree-Audio-Dac--Digital-Converter/dp/B005MYDICQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1328150926&sr=1-1

Another option is to use a MF-VLINK or other USB two S/PDIF converter. This also can improve your sound quite a bit, especially going into a Coax or optical connection on a receiver. MC loves this particular device, driving it to perfection.

There are two versions of the V-Link, with the older version a steal at $99 right now. http://www.amazon.com/Musical-Fidelity-MFVLINK-V-Link/dp/B004PH03GU/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1328150793&sr=1-1

-Paul

[Listener]

> I'm also trying to understand and evaluate new options for getting my J River library over to my Onkyo TX-NR808 receiver.

The Onkyo manual indicates that the receiver has both coax and optical digital inputs.  Try connecting the coax out directly to your receiver.  You own it so give it a try.


> My current configuration uses a SPDIF extension card coax out to my Adcom GDA-600 DAC then to my Onkyo via RCA plugs.

Does this "SPDIF extension card"  connect to a SPDIF header on the motherboard or is it a  PCI or PCIe soundcard.

$ 200 isn't much.  $ 300 is a little better but not a lot.  I'd explore what you have now before I spend $ 200-300 on a USB DAC.

Bill

[NWLanding]

Thanks Bill - I should revisit connecting directly to the Onkyo again. I think I did that originally but I can't remember why I moved on from there to my Adcom DAC. Worth another try. Can you describe the benefits or trade-offs of going that route? The coax extension card connects to the MB header.

[pcstockton]

Thanks Bill - I should revisit connecting directly to the Onkyo again. I think I did that originally but I can't remember why I moved on from there to my Adcom DAC. Worth another try. Can you describe the benefits or trade-offs of going that route? The coax extension card connects to the MB header.

All you need to do is a few days of demoing the Onkyo to answer for yourself and hopefully then let everyone know the result.  You are accustomed to the Adcom's signature.  It shouldn't take long to sort out if the Onkyo is better, worse or indistinguishable.

-patrick

[NWLanding]

The Onkyo manual indicates that the receiver has both coax and optical digital inputs.  Try connecting the coax out directly to your receiver.  You own it so give it a try.
Bill

Well I've experimented with some changes to my setup, including Bills suggestion of connecting directly to the Onkyo from the HTPC. I also moved the Polk TSi400 connections from the Onkyo to my Adcom GFA-5400 amp connected to the Onkyo Pre-Out. The result is a better sound stage and improved imaging.

However, I'm going to need to spend some time today reviewing posts as I'm now getting errors when attempting to play 24/96 FLAC files. Any suggestions on where I should focus my efforts are appreciated.

I also jumped on 'renting' the $99 Music Fidelity V-Link so when it gets here next week I'll be able to assess the benefits of that addition and will report back.

I also stopped by a local HiFi store and previewed the Peach Tree DAC and may be able to do an overnight demo to test drive it too.

More to come, thanks to all the great feedback.

[Listener]

> However, I'm going to need to spend some time today reviewing posts
> as I'm now getting errors when attempting to play 24/96 FLAC files.

"errors" is not very specific.  Are you hearing clicks or pops during playback?  Between tracks?  Pauses?

Such errors are often caused by thew DAC chip not getting input data.  That can be caused by a bottleneck anywhere in the path from the music file on your hard drive through the Windows file system, then through MC, the device driver(s) for the audio device to the actual DAC chip.

It is also possible that the DAC function in the receiver (or the Adcom DAC) doesn't work well at 24/96.

More details would help us give you advice.  What output mode are you using in MC?  Do you have anti-virus softwaree running on this PC?  What version of Windows? What CPU chip does your PC have?  How much RAM memory? Are your music files on an internal hard drive or an external drive?

The problems you see may not be fixed by buying a VLink or a new DAC. Resist the urge and do some experiments.

Bill

[NWLanding]

"errors" is not very specific.  Are you hearing clicks or pops during playback?  Between tracks?  Pauses?

It is also possible that the DAC function in the receiver (or the Adcom DAC) doesn't work well at 24/96.

More details would help us give you advice.  What output mode are you using in MC?  Do you have anti-virus softwaree running on this PC?  What version of Windows? What CPU chip does your PC have?  How much RAM memory? Are your music files on an internal hard drive or an external drive?

The problems you see may not be fixed by buying a VLink or a new DAC. Resist the urge and do some experiments.

Bill

Bill, thanks for challenging me to slow down and investigate available options. sorry for the vague reference to an err msg I got following  eliminating the Adcom DAC and going directly to the receiver.


Err Msg:
Something went wrong with playback

Details:
Playback could not be started on the output WASAPI – Event Style ‘using the format 96KHz 24bit 2ch’
This output may not be supported by your hardware. You can use DSP Studio to change the output to a compatible format.
Also, make sure that your system has a valid sound playback device and that it is properly configured in playback option.

Is my assumption correct that it is the integrated sound system on the motherboard is the hardware problem? The Onkyo documentation establishes the fact that the unit will handle 24/96. Playing files on the Onkyo as a client for J River (and a hard drive hung off wireless router DLNA) displays current bitrate and resollution for what is currently being played by the Onkyo through the OSD.


As a work around I change the Sample rate for 96KHz to 48KHz in the DSP and bitrate to 16bit. So I'm wondering how to play my 24/96 files at their native resolution?

Here's the breakdown on system settings:
Windows Side Sound Settings:
Control Panel:
Playback: SPDIF Interface, Soundmax Integrated Digital HD Audio default device
Driver Version:  5/21/2009 (current)
Supported formats:
DTS Audio
Dolby Digital
Sample Rates:
44.1KHz
48.0KHz
SPDIF Vol Level: 100%
System Effects: Disabled
Advanced Settings:
Default format: 2ch 16-bit, 44100 Hz
Exclusive Mode:
Applications allowed to take exclusive control of the device
Exclusive mode applications given priority
Soundmax Audio Settings
Playback devices:  SPDIF, 100%
Listening Experience
SPDIF is playback device
Sonic Focus Disabled

J River Media Center Options
Audio Output: WASAPI – Event Style
Device:
SPDIF Interface (Soundmax Integrated Digital HD Audio)
Buffering: 100 milliseconds


Another important requirement I'm trying to achieve is to be able to drive my outdoor speakers. The Onkyo AV receiver supports two zones, one of which is powered by the receiver the other requires zone amp. I'd like to use the powered zone to drive my outdoor speakers but the powered zone is limited to analog sources only, which is why I started to investigate a usb dac. Based on my understanding this would allow me to improve on the sound and provide an analog signal for both the main and zone 2. Is my reasoning off the tracks on this?

Thanks, Marc

[Listener]

I think that the error message was clear and accurate.

"Playback could not be started on the output WASAPI – Event Style ‘using the format 96KHz 24bit 2ch’
This output may not be supported by your hardware. You can use DSP Studio to change the output to a compatible format.
Also, make sure that your system has a valid sound playback device and that it is properly configured in playback option."

> Is my assumption correct that it is the integrated sound system on the motherboard is the hardware problem?

Yes.

"Playback: SPDIF Interface, Soundmax Integrated Digital HD Audio default device"

onboard sound of the sort used in old laptops.  Not great.

Sample Rates:
44.1KHz
48.0KHz

It doesn't appear that your onboard sound can support 24/96.


> As a work around I change the Sample rate for 96KHz to 48KHz in the DSP and bitrate to 16bit.

There are several ways to allow you to play your 24/96 files on your current setup.  Here is one way using recent versions of MC 17:

In the DSP Studio dialog, you will make changes in the areas circled in this screenshot.



- Check the Output format checkbox.

- In the Sample Rate area, set the sample rate conversions as shown.

- Set the Bit depth to 16 bits.

Your 16/44.1 files will be played at their native rate/bit depth.  Videos with 16/48 audio will be played at their native rate/bit depth. 24/96 material will be conversion to 16/48.

> So I'm wondering how to play my 24/96 files at their native resolution?

You may not be able to with your current hardware.  Why did you buy the 24/96 files?

> I also jumped on 'renting' the $99 Music Fidelity V-Link so when it gets here next week
> I'll be able to assess the benefits of that addition and will report back.

> I also stopped by a local HiFi store and previewed the Peach Tree DAC
> and may be able to do an overnight demo to test drive it too.

I think your experience suggests strongly that you should get a better understanding of how computer audio works before spending serious amounts of money.

(pcstockton said)  "check out Naim Audio's UnitiQute."

You'd be jumping into an entirely new set of unknowns.  Wait until you know what you are doing before you make any radical changes.

> outdated Asus M2NPV-VM MB

My dedicated MusicPC has an Intel motherboard of about the same vintage with a 1.8 GHz Core2Duo CPU and 2 GB of Ram with Win XP.  It is plenty fast for running JRiver MC.  Your computer might be inadequate if it doesn't have enough Ram or if the CPU is slow single core model.

Win XP is not a good fit with USB DACs unless they have their own drivers.  That might be a reason to get a newer computer.  On the other hand, a $ 129 ESI Juli@ PCI soundcard gives you good quality coax and optical SPDIF outputs. Its ASIO driver bypasses the Windows audio stack and allows playback at native rates/bit depths.  That approach works fine with Win XP.  I have used one for years.

Bill

[NWLanding]

Thanks Bill for your detailed reply, and patience with my limited understanding. I'll make sure I invest an ample amount of research to bolster my knowledge on computer audio.

I bought the 24/96 because I can play them outside J River on my wireless AP DLNA or USB on the Onkyo. Perhaps I need to document that the files are not be down sampled with out my knowledge. My current goal is to enable playback on J River and now that you and others have coached me on identifying my knowledge gap I will continue to educate myself on the topic so what ever purchase I make is well informed.

You're right about my Asus mother board being adequate to run J River 17. I just want to update to a motherboard with HDMI out and increased power for some other application I run on the PC. I do have 8gb of RAM for running Windows Pro 64bit and other more demanding apps.

I'll circle back and update this post with my eventual solutions.

Thanks again to all that replied!

Marc

[Listener]

> I just want to update to a motherboard with HDMI out and increased power for some other application I run on the PC.

A caution.  HDMI is not necessarily a good choice for high quality audio.  As usually implemented, jitter can be much higher than for SPDIF or async mode USB.  The quality of the drivers may be an issue for audio as well.

> I bought the 24/96 because I can play them outside J River on my wireless AP DLNA or USB on the Onkyo.

I understand.

High res. is still off the beaten path.  When you go off the beaten path for computer audio, you need to know more.  I didn't think you were ready to take on high res. playback.

> Perhaps I need to document that the files are not be down sampled with out my knowledge.

More for you to learn.  Take your time.

> I'll circle back and update this post with my eventual solutions.

Please do.

Bill

[NWLanding]

HDMI is only for using my LCD TV as monitor, I understand the limitation of HDMI for audio.

[JimH]

> I just want to update to a motherboard with HDMI out and increased power for some other application I run on the PC.

A caution.  HDMI is not necessarily a good choice for high quality audio.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree.  HDMI should be fine for audio and/or video.

[Cazzesman]

HDMI is only for using my LCD TV as monitor, I understand the limitation of HDMI for audio.

Copied from http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/hdmi-interface-a-beginners-guide

A single HDMI link, on the other hand, is capable of transferring up to 24 bits of user data at 165 Mpixels per second, resulting in a massive bandwidth of nearly 4 Gbps . This is enough to support the 1080p resolutions of today's newest high-definition displays while still leaving room to transport up to 8 channels of high-resolution audio with 24 bits of resolution and a sampling frequency up to 192 kHz - all across a single HDMI cable. This is well beyond the maximum specifications of even DVD-Audio, which tops out at 6 channels and a sample rate of 96 kHz. The fact is, the HDMI standard includes extra headroom to allow for future upgrades to audio formats.

Regards Cazzesman

[JimH]

I think they mean Mbits per second, not Mpixels.

[NWLanding]

Thanks to all that contributed to my OP. This dialog helped me put the breaks on long enough to more clearly establish my requirements and limitations.

To start, I've established that my Onkyo TX-NR808 receiver is only capable of digital sampling of PCM inputs at 31/44.1/48/88/96 kHz. 176.4 and 192 is only available through a HDMI connection.

I documented my current requirements that need to met as:

1) Remove the 16/48 bottleneck of my HTPC on-board sound card. I have a few 24/96 music files that I've been able to play using the DLNA or USB Drive functionality supported with the Onkyo AVR, but I was forced to resample them to 16/48 when playing from J River. Although I won't be buying any more 24/96 music for a while.

2) Adapt to the requirement of my Onkyo to provide an analog input source when using the Powered Zone 2 for my outdoor speakers. Previoulsy I was using an ASUS COAX S/PDIF module that attached to the motherboard audio header then out to an Adcom GDA-600 DAC, then to the Onkyo AVR analog (RCA) input. While this worked I was still constrained by the on-board 16/48 HTPC audio.

I sold the Adcom DAC on eBay for $200 and invested the money back into a Music Fidelity V-DAC II. So my out-of-pocket expense for the MF V-DAC is $149. Which in a sense has kept me within my original budget of $100-200 (ignoring the original eBay cost of the Adcom). I also shelled out $99 for a Pangea power supply for the V-DAC.

I chose the Music Fidelity because it met both of the stated requirements, and based on what information I found on several forums and web content I accepted as fact that an asynchroneous USB is a good stratgy for reducing jitter when playing my audio files.

After a week of burn-in I have noticed a better sound stage, improved imaging, tighter base and a more detailed high end. Previously music sounded more compressed and somewhat veiled. It's now more open and enjoyable. Panacea? Maybe, but I like it. I'll wait a few weeks and then connect a coax from my HTPC to the AVR and see what it sounds like.

I'll still be upgrading my HTPC and I'll be interested in seeing what I observe using HDMI.

As always, feedback and questions welcomed and appreciated.