Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[marko]

(click the images for a clearer view) I still can't figure out why the forum is enlarging images in "IMG" tags. Annoying in the extreme.
Skinny Scroll bars - Black And Blue Too HC.zip


Normal Scroll bars - Black And Blue Too HC (SB).zip


If you have a mouse with a free wheeling scroll wheel, you might like the 'skinny scroll bars' version. Here, the vertical bars are not meant to be touched, they are just there to give a visual indication of how long the list is, and where abouts in it you are. Just put your mouse in the area you want to scroll and spin that wheel.

If that is not to your liking, then give "Black And Blue Too HC (SB)" a try as it has more traditional scroll bars you can grab with the mouse.

Download is via mjp files, attached below. Extract and double click, MC will download, install and apply the skin.

To Do...

• Try out grabby scrollbars for MACs (Deemed unecessary)
  
• Get some contrast into the tag window/action window Done 04/10/2015
  
• Set colour of currently playing track in a list Done (is now green) 05/10/2015
  
• Make 'proper' scroll bars Done 13/10/2015
  
  Updated: 28/01/2018
  Squished expanded tag window icons are now fixed in both of these skins.
  
  Updated (24/11/2019)
  Added suitable colours for both variations for the new MC 26 waveform progress bar.
  
  Updated (28/01/2023)
  Integrity checked xml vs filenames. Skin should now work correctly on Linux.
  Added a Spotlight button.
  Set the Spotlight page background colour.
  
  Edit (04/02/2023):
  Updated attached mjp files, which should now work for Linux and Mac as well as Windows.

[blgentry]

I'm playing with it now and enjoying it.  I've been using it for way longer than the original, so I must like it better. 

Comments in no particular order:

MJP files don't work on MC for Mac.  No big deal; I've been bypassing this for a long time, and it's easy.

The contrast is WAY better now, but still not quite high enough for me.  Mostly in the Tagging Pane.  Making the font color closer to white would probably help.  I don't mean to be critical.  Just expressing my personal preferences.

The font in the top information display is (I think) the same size as the last version of B&BT.  It's large enough to read, but not large enough for me.  As a scale comparison, if that font is 18 point, I'm looking for more like 24.  Something like 50% larger.

Overall, I'm liking it.  I'll continue using it for a while to see how I like it over a longer term.

Brian.

[blgentry]

I've just modified main.xml to have a larger information area font.  Much larger!  That was easy.  I definitely like it better with a larger title/information size. 

Brian.

[marko]

A bit more of that and we'll have you knocking out your own skins What size did you land on?

Regarding the action window...
I kind of knew you would call me out on that, but took a punt on it anyway. If you hold down shift (you have those on MACs?) when clicking "Tag", and the "experimental" tag window will open. It has a scheme much closer to the file list style, but I thought that something that set the tag window clearly apart when it was open would work better. I'll have a think about that and see if I can forge something a bit more contrasty. For me, with the experimental tag window open, the blue window header looks silly against it, really out of place... Sometimes, it's like domino topping when you start changing things, but thankfully, the action window can be reasonably self contained, even if choices are somewhat dictated by the limited text colouring options. Leave that with me a day or three to work something out.

and those mjp files...
I assumed that they worked on all platforms. What do you do? Open it in a text editor and copy the direct path to the zip file? After that, is it easy to get the skin in the right place?

Thanks for the feedback too btw. Constructive criticism is not only welcome, it's encouraged. That way, we can tweak the skin where needed, iron out anything I might have missed and generally polish it off.

-marko.

[blgentry]

A bit more of that and we'll have you knocking out your own skins What size did you land on?

Initially 200 for the main and 180 for the info.  WAY too big!  At the moment I'm at 170 for Title and 140 for Status, which I think is a good compromise.  160/130 might be more sane.  <shrug>

I kind of knew you would call me out on that, but took a punt on it anyway. If you hold down shift (you have those on MACs?) when clicking "Tag", and the "experimental" tag window will open.

  Shift is available on Mac.  I'm actually aware of the hidden Tagging mode; are you sure we can talk about it here?!?  Indeed that mode looks far more "normal" and easier to see.  Not that your color scheme is "bad" in the regular Tagging Pane.  It's just a bit low contrast and VERY blue.  I love blue.  I've owned 3 blue cars so far.  I plan to own more.

and those mjp files...
I assumed that they worked on all platforms. What do you do? Open it in a text editor and copy the direct path to the zip file? After that, is it easy to get the skin in the right place?

Yes, exactly.   Open MJP, extract path, paste into web browser, save.  Open zip file, find directory, copy and paste into JRiver skins directory.  Weird that these MJP's don't work on the Mac version.  But no big deal at all.

If it means anything, I'm still using B&B2HC right now.  I had to switch away once because trying to grab scroll bars (so thin!) in a Pane wasn't working and I had a LOT of values in that Pane.  Otherwise, kinda digging this skin. 

Brian.

[marko]

I had to switch away once because trying to grab scroll bars (so thin!) in a Pane wasn't working and I had a LOT of values in that Pane.

Hmmm. Bear with me here. I am not taking the proverbial... Reading that, a big light bulb lit up over my head as I remembered grabbing a display MAC to mess around with in the store, many years ago now, and being completely baffled by the mouse, which was basically a corded plastic pebble thing, that rocked a bit. There was no left/right buttons, no scroll wheel, and I walked away, defeated, and have never been near a MAC since.

You know, as an English only speaker, I've always felt a little guilty (but ever grateful) that everyone else needs some English to get by with. This next bit is like that. I know nothing about MACs. I bought my 1st PC about 15 years ago, and learned everything I know about them between then and now.

Now, on windows, as I'm sure you know, there's a scroll wheel on the mouse, so the only purpose of the very narrow vertical scroll bar is to give a visual indication of where in the list you are. It was never meant to be grabbed. I first introduced the 'no scrollbars' notion in the Arctic Winter skins, and it proved quite popular and has been adopted by other skin authors too. If there really is no alternative to the scroll wheel in the MAC world, I'm wondering if I could leverage the the code used to display different window control buttons based on platform to use different scroll bars too.

Knocking out a fully featured skin that everyone can use just got a whole lot more technical. I'm really glad you mentioned the scrollbars, because until reading that, I just imagined everyone had a scroll wheel. How very short sighted of me!

There is an option you can set to 'expand scrollbars on mouse over' but I tried it just now, and it's insane. Just trying to get the 'mouse over' bit takes forever, and then the expand is neglible. This is due to the original size of the bars mind you, there's nothing wrong with the actual setting in MC.

I'm actually aware of the hidden Tagging mode; are you sure we can talk about it here?!?  Indeed that mode looks far more "normal" and easier to see.

Yeah, that one's OK. It's there if anyone wants a play around with it, but totally not supported and more than a little buggy. It's MC's unexploded bomb
I for one really like it. I only mentioned it as I deliberately left this one like that, ready for the 'not enough contrast' in the blue one, which looks great, I agree, but is hardly what you would call 'high contrast' so shouldn't be in a high contrast skin. I must have either gotten lazy, or ran out of ideas.

Thanks again for the feedback. I've now got two things to revisit, which is fine. I will need you test the scroll bar thing once I've set it up though, as I think I might have mentioned already, I don't have a MAC

-marko

[blgentry]

[...]There was no left/right buttons, no scroll wheel, and I walked away, defeated, and have never been near a MAC since.
[...]
I first introduced the 'no scrollbars' notion in the Arctic Winter skins, and it proved quite popular and has been adopted by other skin authors too. If there really is no alternative to the scroll wheel in the MAC world, I'm wondering if I could leverage the the code used to display different window control buttons based on platform to use different scroll bars too.

You can use almost any kind of USB or wireless mouse with a Mac these days.  I'm currently using a Logitech M510, which does have a scroll wheel.  The "magic mouse" also understands two finger gestures and interprets two fingers swiping vertically as "scroll".  The track pad on a Mac laptop is similar.

So why in the world was I trying to grab the scroll bar?!?  Because the scroll wheel, while a decent tool, is inefficient for long lists.  I used to watch co-workers scroll and scroll and scroll and scroll endlessly down huge pages of text, when they just wanted to get to the bottom.  The solution is to move the mouse over, grab the scroll bar and almost instantly get to the relative position on page where you want to be.  Because that's what a scroll bar is designed to do:  Fast relative positioning.

In MC, it's not as bad as say a 50 page document.  But if you have several hundred values, scrolling inside a Pane can be pretty slow and inaccurate.  So I like to grab the scroll bar in that case.  It's not a very common thing for me to be doing in Panes.  Just every now and then for certain things.

Don't go to any trouble on my behalf.  One *can* grab the skinny scroll bars in your skin.  It's just hard to do.  So, when I need to do that kind of work, I can always switch to another skin.  I did that yesterday.  MC is currently sitting with B&B2HC on it, so I must still like it.

I will need you test the scroll bar thing once I've set it up though, as I think I might have mentioned already, I don't have a MAC

I don't think you need to change anything with the scroll bars.  Change if you want, but please don't do it for me. 

Brian.

[marko]

You have scroll wheels? Excellent. In that case; I agree with you and will leave alone. My mouse has a 'free wheeling' scroll wheel that is just brilliant. One good spin gets it up and down a long list in short order. I could never go back to a clicky one.

I've updated the skin just now. If you're using the mjp file, just double click it again to get the update. If those don't work, and you have the skin already, the changes are only in the skin's xml file, attached to this post, so you can just download that and replace the existing one to get the changes.

Changes are:
Set the display font sizes to 160/130
Set the action window text colour to match the file list colour
Changed the tag window colour slightly to make read-only fields easier to identify

-marko

EDIT: Attachment is now in post #10 (three posts down)

[blgentry]

My mouse has a 'free wheeling' scroll wheel that is just brilliant. One good spin gets it up and down a long list in short order. I could never go back to a clicky one.

I read about those about 8 or 10 years ago.  Always meant to check one out, but I never did.  My current mouse was on sale, and I didn't have one AT ALL, so it was already a big step up from using a track pad. 

I've updated the skin just now. If you're using the mjp file, just double click it again to get the update. If those don't work, and you have the skin already, the changes are only in the skin's xml file, attached to this post, so you can just download that and replace the existing one to get the changes.

Thanks for making the upgrade easier on me.  It's just a few extra steps to go through the MJP, open it with a text editor, cut and paste into a web browser, save as, then unzip, etc.  This made it easier for sure.

Set the display font sizes to 160/130
Set the action window text colour to match the file list colour
Changed the tag window colour slightly to make read-only fields easier to identify

I may go back to 170/140 at some point, but for right now 160/130 is VERY visually close to my reference skin (Onyx with my mods).  So I'm leaving it alone for now.

The Tagging Pane has all different colors now.  So I guess Action Window colors == Tagging Pane colors?  They are SO MUCH easier to read and use.    Thank you.  I don't think I have any read only files and I had NO IDEA they were displayed differently in the tagging pane.  Where at?  Title bar or something?

Thanks again.  I've been living with B&B2HC for several days now, almost continuously and I'm enjoying it.

Brian.

[marko]

read-only fields, not files. Things like "Duration" that cannot be edited.

Pleased to hear you're enjoying it. Thanks again for the helpful feedback.

[marko]

Another little tweak...

Just an xml update again. The currently playing track in a list now has bright green text. Previously, the difference was so slight as to be virtually impossible to detect.

Changes are:
Set the display font sizes to 160/130
Set the action window text colour to match the file list colour
Changed the tag window colour slightly to make read-only fields easier to identify
Set the text for currently playing track in a list to green

-marko

Edit: Attachment removed - All changes as of 13/10/2015 have been incorporated within the two downloads in the first post.

[blgentry]

Just an xml update again. The currently playing track in a list now has bright green text. Previously, the difference was so slight as to be virtually impossible to detect.

I had noticed, but I thought it was minor.  Nice tweak!

BTW, the Main.XML linked here has the skin name set to "!New Skin".  I changed it manually on my copy.

Thanks,

Brian.

[marko]

Fixed that now. Thanks for the nod.

[justsomeguy]

I love it, looks great. This is now my daily use skin. Thanks

[marko]

Thanks for taking the time to say so. Glad you like it.

[blgentry]

I haven't used any other skin then B&BTHC in something like 5 days now.  I'm generally very satisfied with this skin.  I've come to appreciate a couple of visual features of this skin that others seem to lack.  At least the ones that *I* have used and enjoyed:

In the left Navigation Pane, there are many trees that you can expand by clicking on a button.  Most skins present these as arrows that change direction or + symbols that turn into - symbols.  B&BTHC uses little bubbles that grow and change color when you open them.  This is MUCH better visually.  At first I didn't really like it.  Then I realized how *easy* it makes it to visually find the top of the tree you are looking for.  It's sort of a minor difference, but it makes it mentally much easier.  No hunting around for the open tree.  See the big blue bubble?  That's the top of the tree!

In Playing Now and other list type views there are arrows that are links to Album, Artist, etc.  In most skins these arrows are small, but visible.  Clicking on the arrows isn't hard, but it requires a bit of fine tuning with the mouse because they are quite small targets.  Note:  I've been using a mouse since perhaps 1992 actively, almost every day, so I'm fairly familiar with using one.  Still, clicking these arrows requires just a *bit* of extra attention.  In B&BTHC, the arrows "light up" by changing to a bright highlight color as soon as you are "on target".  This makes acquiring them much easier and has actually encouraged me to use the arrows more.

I've also gotten kind of visually used to the blueness of everything and I think it's pleasant to look at.

My only negative is something I already said I didn't really care about... but apparently I lied!    The super skinny "zero scrollbars" are starting to get in my way a bit.  I seem to use scrollbars more than I initially thought.  It's not "all the time", but just often enough that I'm a little frustrated from time to time.  If it *really* gets to me, I'll probably hack B&BTHC into B&BTHC-NSB (normal scroll bars). 

Brian.

[marko]

I have a Knit-Knots revision called "Knit-Knots NSB" (No Scroll Bars) :p

Thanks for the feedback after longer use. I always feel that that is just as important as 'first impressions' feedback, if not more so.

I'll have a look at some fatter scroll bars over the weekend, probably as a revision for all rather than a piece of MAC specific code, even though it would be neat to know if that way would actually work.

While we are talking scroll bars, the horizontal one here only gets any kind of 'HC' about it when you mouse over it. I did that on purpose as I found that big and bright down there was distracting while reading a list... do you have any thoughts one way or the other about that? As if I'm in there doing verticals, it's an ideal opportunity to apply any required polish to the horizontals.

-marko

[blgentry]

The horizontal scrollbars are what I call "transparent".  This means that I use them and don't notice that they have any particular characteristics.  Until you mentioned it, I didn't even realize that the H scrollbars were big enough to grab.  I've just been grabbing and using them normally.  So they are just right for this skin IMHO.

Thanks for continuing to be open to my seemingly never ending commentary on YOUR work.    I really am enjoying it. 

Brian.

[marko]

Morning Brian (and anyone else that's following along, of course ),

I'm really not sure about these, but, here they are, vertical scroll bars, first draft.

The attached file contains the vertical scroll bar files and an updated xml file.
The xml names the skin as "Black And Blue Too HC (SB)"
I would recommend making a copy of the skin folder, renaming it as above, then extract these to the new folder, replacing any existing files.

If they need any tweaking, let me know.

-marko

Edit: Attachment removed - All changes as of 13/10/2015 have been incorporated within the two downloads in the first post.

[blgentry]

At first glace they work really well.  In panes view, they are very easy to grab at the width they are set to, and the highlight color helps one visually acquire them as they light up when the mouse passes over them.

My only slight negative is when the scroll bars are very small they are harder to see.  For example, I usually run Playing Now with a very large area up top for album art and a small scroll area below showing about 6 or 7 songs in the Playing Now list.  In this case, that makes the scroll bar fairly small.  In it's current color, it tends to kind of "fade away" into the background, making it hard to see and grab hold of.

But really, this is quite minor.  I don't really scroll that tiny Playing Now area much at all.  I normally expand it to full size, do any manipulations I need to do, and then shrink it back down so I can see the album art again.

I just tried making a Panes view with the panes set very small, so the scroll bar shrunk way down.  It makes it hard(er) to see the scroll bars, but they are still totally usable.  So I think this is largely a non-issue.  Like I said, very minor.

This is a welcome change.  For a while I was pretty sure I'd go back to using my customized Onyx skin after some time.  Now I'm thinking B&BT (HC SB) will probably have a more permanent place in my Skins rotation.    Thanks Marko!

Brian.

[marko]

I see what you mean...

Finding something easy to see, but not to the point of distraction from the content, and fits with the varying backgrounds it will be used with is not easy. It fascinates me how the slightest change of shade or colour can have a really dramatic change in a skin...

Any way, 2nd draft attached.
Changes are:
Removed the greyed out arrows from the 'disabled' scroll bar (seen in panes where a scroll bar is not required)
Lightened up the default state so as to make it easier to locate. (Trying a colour closer to list text to hopefully achieve this at the same time as keeping it from being distracting)
Applied the same treatment to the horizontal scroll bar as it looked odd being out of step with its vertical counterpart.

-marko

Edit: Attachment removed - All changes as of 13/10/2015 have been incorporated within the two downloads in the first post.

[blgentry]

Finding something easy to see, but not to the point of distraction from the content, and fits with the varying backgrounds it will be used with is not easy. It fascinates me how the slightest change of shade or colour can have a really dramatic change in a skin...

I'd say you did a good job.  This is a marked improvement.  I can now see the scrollbars, even when they are pretty small, quite easily.  I spent a few minutes in different views and they work great in all of the cases I tried!

Brian.

[Steef_V.]

Another reaction from my side...

I had just got my license for MC21, and was looking for a nice skin as well, to really "prove to myself" that I got something new. I found Marko's B&BTHC which I liked very much (replacing blue by red though...  ). The only thing WAS the extremely narrow scrollbar - that is, UNTIL today!

You now created the BEST skin ever for MC! (And I have been using it since MC8 or 9, or so....)

THANKS, Marko!

Cheers from Holland, Steef.

[marko]

Morning all,

Thanks again for the feedback, it's really useful and helps add that final polish to things.

Steef_V., great to hear from you. Thanks for taking the time to post. I tried flipping the blue to red, and Wow! I couldn't use it like that for too long myself. Did you try flipping blue/green? That's pretty neat too, but would probably sear your retinas after any prolonged use

I've removed all of the 'work in progress' attachments in the thread to avoid any unnecessary confusion, and both versions are now available for download in the first post (with updated pictures).

-marko.

[Steef_V.]

..... I tried flipping the blue to red, and Wow! I couldn't use it like that for too long myself. Did you try flipping blue/green? That's pretty neat too, but would probably sear your retinas after any prolonged use
.....
-marko.

       Sorry, I'm a "red" addict.... I also try to change the Microsoft blue to reddish whenever I have a chance....
But the looks don't change the quality of your skin!

Grtz, Steef

[marko]

Both versions above now have an updated look for the 'other' tag window, a bit more in keeping with the rest of the skin.

I don't think there's much else, but if I did miss something, let me know.

[marko]

I think the Action Window header is not quite right. Over time, it begun to irritate me more, so I made a new one. The difference is quite subtle, and more obvious with the rest of the skin around it. Basically, I've made it 'flatter'.

The old:


The new:


A preview is attached. Extract to your skin folder overwriting the existing files. Note that it requires slightly different drawing, so an xml file is included. The preview is for the SB version of the skin only.

If there's no negative feedback, I'll update both downloads with this change in a day or three.

-marko

[contium]

Very nice! This is going to be my daily driver for a while. Thanks for sharing!

[marko]

contium, thank you for taking the time to post. Pleased to hear you're enjoying the skin.

Both downloads have now been updated with the slightly updated action window header.

-marko

[marko]

The release of Media Center 21.0.23 on the main board will have broken this skin slightly as JRiver changed some of the skin scaling from this build forwards.

I have updated the download to fix that (just double click your saved mjp file to update) but, this means that the skin is no longer backwards compatible.
If you update to build 21.0.23 and find that you're missing window buttons (Close, Maximise etc) then update the skin to correct that.
If you have not updated, do not update the skin until you have updated MC and see a problem.

-marko

[marko]

Both of these have now had their expanded tag window icons fixed.

Files on the server have been updated, so just double click your mjp file (attached to the first post if you need a new one) to download and apply the updated skin.

-marko

[marko]

Updated (24/11/2019)
Added suitable colours for the new MC 26 waveform progress bar.

-marko

[marko]

Updated (28/01/2023)
Integrity checked xml vs filenames. Skin should now work correctly on Linux.
Added a Spotlight button.
Set the Spotlight page background colour.

[marko]

Edit (04/02/2023):
Updated mjp files attached in first post, which should now work for Linux and Mac as well as Windows.

[EnglishTiger]

ET TrackInfo Plugins are available for Marko's Black And Blue Too HC + Black And Blue Too HC (SB) Skins and all his other skins.
You can read about them here - https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,134776.0.html
or View and Download them here - http:// [url]https://englishtiger.uk/index.html [/URL}