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[jacqlan111]

Please try the build from the top of this thread.

I have paid attention again of all replies from the top of the thread and I am pretty sure to understand almost everything concerning the loopback option.  So would you suggest that I install the 17.0.117 beta version?

It was construct on a Wasapi driver, but work also on ASIO as I see it.  Is a specific (exasound asio) driver would be compatible for sure?

[jacqlan111]

Well, must be a system problem.
I have tried to reinstall the "live://loopback
"  in MC 17.0.117 and with the M.Audio driver's sound card and MC crashes again when I hit  OK.

[mojave]

When using the ASIO drivers in REW the same device is used for playback and recording. Since the e18 has no inputs, it probably will not be available in REW for ASIO ouput which is why you can't see it. Does it show up when selecting JAVA drivers in REW? If it doesn't, you will probably have to do all your measurements with another soundcard and then put the e18 back in for playback.

Can you try the loopback using a motherboard soundcard as the default output and the M-Audio soundcard as the output card in JRiver? It might help for you to get it working in some configuration at least.

[Mikkel]

I dared trying this feature today but only with partial luck. I get very stuttering audio no matter the buffer size (did notice smaller is better in this case). But whether a large, medium or small buffer were chosen the audio stutters.

I noticed mojave seemed to have the same problem... any ideas?

My soundcard is an Asus Xonar HDAV1.3 Deluxe and the onboard is a realtek-something using VIA-drivers (with the onboard as default windows device and the Asus for JRiver). I'm using wasapi event-style but did also try asio just to be sure. It makes no difference... using .117-version of JRiver.

Hope you can help me - let me know what further info you need and I shall provide is as soon as possible.


Best regards,
Mikkel

[jacqlan111]

When using the ASIO drivers in REW the same device is used for playback and recording. Since the e18 has no inputs, it probably will not be available in REW for ASIO ouput which is why you can't see it. Does it show up when selecting JAVA drivers in REW? No it's the only one who doesn't show.If it doesn't, you will probably have to do all your measurements with another soundcard and then put the e18 back in for playback. I need 8 ch to match MC EQ and filters and I don't have a card doing this.

Can you try the loopback using a motherboard soundcard as the default output and the M-Audio soundcard as the output card in JRiver? It might help for you to get it working in some configuration at least.

Thanks for your patience,

I wonder why nobody seams to bothers with the fact that MC crashes when I try to put the live loopback in?  I tough this was crucial?

[ccclapp]

If you are still trying to set up loobback (without introducing REW until you have LB working) and if you are still getting stuttering even at .05 sec latency and below, try disabling (unchecking ) all dsp in MC.

Dont forget to stop and restart MC between all settings changed (not pause, but stop/start)

[Trumpetguy]

I dared trying this feature today but only with partial luck. I get very stuttering audio no matter the buffer size (did notice smaller is better in this case). But whether a large, medium or small buffer were chosen the audio stutters.

I noticed mojave seemed to have the same problem... any ideas?

My soundcard is an Asus Xonar HDAV1.3 Deluxe and the onboard is a realtek-something using VIA-drivers (with the onboard as default windows device and the Asus for JRiver). I'm using wasapi event-style but did also try asio just to be sure. It makes no difference... using .117-version of JRiver.

Hope you can help me - let me know what further info you need and I shall provide is as soon as possible.


Best regards,
Mikkel

Loopback is an excellent idea!

There seems to be some effect of varying the buffer size in my setup, 0.1s seems to be fine (but I do not trust it yet...). Any other buffer size longer or shorter causes violent stutter. This is my experience when I tried this first time today using ASIO. Work perfectly without Convolution in the audio path, but stutters violently when room correction filter is activated and using other buffer sizes than 0.1s.

[rlebrette]

Loopback is an excellent idea!

There seems to be some effect of varying the buffer size in my setup, 0.1s seems to be fine (but I do not trust it yet...). Any other buffer size longer or shorter causes violent stutter. This is my experience when I tried this first time today using ASIO. Work perfectly without Convolution in the audio path, but stutters violently when room correction filter is activated and using other buffer sizes than 0.1s.

I face the same behavior with a M-Audio Profire 610 on a Q9550/2Gb RAM. Without loopback, I run Room correction and Andiolense convolution filters (up to 7 x realtime) without any problem, even with BRDs, but loopback is still stuttering.

[Trumpetguy]

I face the same behavior with a M-Audio Profire 610 on a Q9550/2Gb RAM. Without loopback, I run Room correction and Andiolense convolution filters (up to 7 x realtime) without any problem, even with BRDs, but loopback is still stuttering.

I am not sure if DSP processing is the direct cause of the stutter. I ran Spotify through the loopback, and with stereo audio my audiolense filter was processed more than 50x real time. With my old computer I only occassionally heard a glitch even when processing 15 paths at 2-3x real time.

[rlebrette]

Is there any way (logs/options) that could help to investigate the problem?

[flac.rules]

Seems like a really great feature, but i have not been able to get it to work it, i get a "something went wrong with playback", with ASIO and WASAPI, and very choppy playback with direct sound (often sound that is speeded ut for a second, and then a pause for half a second, and so on) with direct sound. I tried with MC tunning on a S/PDIF output, and the default windows soundcard being a usb-soundcard.

[jacqlan111]

Well my initial problem with loopback was a PC XP problem, some other failures came out after (DVD burner, system restore crashes..).
I've switch everything on my more recent PC running win 7 and the M.Audio 24/96 card 2ch.  Now the loopback feature work but likes others I have experienced stutters while using REW's sound sources, with or without the MC's EQ.

Will have to find a way for sweeps measurements.

[ccclapp]

Matt

Are you able to help out here?  A number of your users are having issues.

Thanks!

[hulkss]

Does anybody have REW playing good sweeps with output to an ASIO device?

If so, please provide a few setup tips. I want to loopback motherboard audio to my ASIO Lynx USB DAC.

[ccclapp]

Does anybody have REW playing good sweeps with output to an ASIO device?

If so, please provide a few setup tips. I want to loopback motherboard audio to my ASIO Lynx USB DAC.

...Im doing more tests tomorrow, but thus far WASPI Event mode is working much better than ASIO.

Also, FYI REW is close to implementing the ability to do REW measurements on external and/or recorded (vs live) sweeps...

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/56977-external-sweep-rew.html#post515181

[mojave]

Does anybody have REW playing good sweeps with output to an ASIO device?

If so, please provide a few setup tips. I want to loopback motherboard audio to my ASIO Lynx USB DAC.

Try doing the following steps. I use it for REW measurements through JRiver both with or without any correction filters.

1.  To use the loopback you have to have another soundcard in the system. I use the motherboard soundcard. Nothing is actually connected to it, but the drivers still need to be installed. You might need to turn autosense off in the motherboard drivers. I have the Realtek HD Audio on the motherboard on my work PC and home HTPC. Disabling front jack detection in the Realtek HD Audio Manager is what actually enables the analog output from front and rear outputs.
2.  Set the above soundcard as 7.1 (with fullrange speakers) and as the default soundcard in the Windows Control Panel.
3.  Set JRiver's Audio output to ASIO and the Lynx.
4.  In REW, use the JAVA audio driver and set the output to whatever is the default card and the input to what you use for your microphone.
5.  Before running the REW sweeps, put JRiver in loopback mode by going to File > Open URL and enter live://loopback.

Now when you play a sweep in REW it will be sent to the default driver and be intercepted by JRiver. JRiver will play it through its DSP  and ouput via ASIO to the Lynx. REW will record back through the input you have specified.

[ccclapp]

3.  Set JRiver's Audio output to ASIO and the Lynx.

I agree with your workflow, but get stutter in ASIO ( no matter what delay/latency i use) and good results in WASPI Event Style mode with wide flexibility in latency setting.  Note: matts advice above is to use lowest latency/delay setting as will yield stable result.  For me works best in waspi than asio.

[mojave]

I agree with your workflow, but get stutter in ASIO ( no matter what delay/latency i use) and good results in WASPI Event Style mode with wide flexibility in latency setting.  Note: matts advice above is to use lowest latency/delay setting as will yield stable result.  For me works best in waspi than asio.

I found that by unchecking "use large hardware buffers" and then manually selecting large buffers in the ASIO drivers for my audio device I was able to get better stability. For my firewire audio device (Steinberg MR816x) it was necessary to set the firewire buffers to large (an obscure setting using an obscure program by Steinberg) in addition to having the ASIO buffers set larger.

[ccclapp]

Thanks Michael, I'll try that

[EarlK]

I wonder why nobody seams to bothers with the fact that MC crashes when I try to put the live loopback in?  I tough this was crucial?

> It ( loopback ) works for the others  commenting within this thread because they are obviously using one of the operating systems that supports WASAPI (  XP doesn't ) .

> Please NOTE: WASAPI is only available from within VISTA & WIN7 or newer . SEE ; WASAPI Notes ( from this very web-site ) .

> If you are keen to use this "Loop-back" feature ( from within MC ) you'll need to use a supported "Operating System" (  like WIN7 ) to get the necessary WASAPI support .

[jacqlan111]

> It ( loopback ) works for the others  commenting within this thread because they are obviously using one of the operating systems that supports WASAPI (  XP doesn't ) .

> Please NOTE: WASAPI is only available from within VISTA & WIN7 or newer . SEE ; WASAPI Notes ( from this very web-site ) .

> If you are keen to use this "Loop-back" feature ( from within MC ) you'll need to use a supported "Operating System" (  like WIN7 ) to get the necessary WASAPI support .

thanks for your concern, Matt had this reply on the subject for me in an other topic
"loopback help needed win XP sp3"
I don't know how to refer to this, but that was the reply

In a coming build:
Fixed: Starting loopback playback (live://loopback) would crash on XP instead of fail gracefully (loopback requires Vista or newer and WASAPI).

[taraba55]

I am following the convolution thread and this one for long time but this is my first question. Before asking question I believe you need to know my hardware:

1. HTPC> JRiver 17>  Asus Xonar ST + H6 board> 6 analog out ( front channel through passive switch)> 6 analog in Denon AVR 5700> 5.1 speaker setup with 2 sub.  This way I listen multichannel audio

2.  HTPC > JRiver 17>passive switch > Eastern Electric Minimax DAC plus> 2ch

My intention  is with Audiolense and Convolution engine in JRiver to create 2  sets of filters :
a) One for 5.1 set up ( including 2 sub) through Asus Xonar ST + H6. My understanding is that should not be a problem, of course I will have to learn a lot
b)In the moment I am not able to incorporate my 2 sub with my DAC for 2.1 channel stereo, or at least I don't know how. My DAC is able to use WASAPI mode only, does not work with Asio driver. My question is , is it possible with the help of loop function in JRiver to incorporate the 2 sub with my DAC and all the measurement with Audiolense XO,  separately for 5.1 set up through Asus Xonar ST +H6 board and 2.1 setup with 2 sub and  EE Minimax DAC plus  ?. I am so eager to get the YES answer. Sorry for my English
Thank you

[mojave]

My intention  is with Audiolense and Convolution engine in JRiver to create 2  sets of filters :

I think you should start by creating two Zones:  one for the 5.1 setup and one for the 2 channel setup. This will make it easier to manage the settings and convolution for each system.

One for 5.1 set up ( including 2 sub) through Asus Xonar ST + H6. My understanding is that should not be a problem, of course I will have to learn a lot

Since you have 8 channels with the ST & H6 (I have the same) you can set Output Mode in JRiver's DSP Studio to 7.1. Then copy the subwoofer channel to channel 5 (Rear Left) using the Parametric Equalizer DSP with Mix Channels. You can then connect one sub to channel 4 (subwoofer) and the other sub to channel 5. Channels 7 and 8 will be your surrounds. This will give you a little more flexibility with Audiolense and convolution. Does this make sense?

In the moment I am not able to incorporate my 2 sub with my DAC for 2.1 channel stereo, or at least I don't know how. My DAC is able to use WASAPI mode only, does not work with Asio driver. My question is , is it possible with the help of loop function in JRiver to incorporate the 2 sub with my DAC and all the measurement with Audiolense XO,  separately for 5.1 set up through Asus Xonar ST +H6 board and 2.1 setup with 2 sub and  EE Minimax DAC plus

It is not possible to use the sub for each system. The loopback feature won't help with this. I don't know what sub you have, but it may be possible to change the cables and settings to get it to work with the DAC system, but it might not be worth the effort each time.

Do both the Asus Xonar ST and Minimax go through the passive switch and then to the Denon AVR5700?

[ccclapp]

--.  Do you know you only need loopback for non- media center sources?  For mc sources skip loopback and just use convolution

--.  Assuming you need/want loopback, do I correctly assume your source material will be 2-ch?  If so, your decault sound playback device under audio control panel in windows should be set at 2-ch (in windows control panel).  In jriver mc set playback to your m-ch sound device as waspi (or asio).  Now in dsp studio set eq to on and configure it to duplicate channels to split left / right signals to l/r main and to l/r sub

I'm on iPhone not at pc so this is a general description

[taraba55]

[It is not possible to use the sub for each system. The loopback feature won't help with this. I don't know what sub you have, but it may be possible to change the cables and settings to get it to work with the DAC system, but it might not be worth the effort each time.]

I have two  B@W ASW 300 active sub connected in a serial to  sub port od Denon. All cables are under the floor ? so not much flexibility here./quote]

Yes , both sound card and DAC go through passive switch . My idea was to use only analog connection between sound card and Denon to be sure that no processing whatsover is done in Denon, both for 2 ch and 5.1 set up. Denon is always set to 6 channel in for both 2ch and 5.1 ch setup. To be onest this loop back feature is not very clear to me, its just my shot if somhow can be uset to incorporate my subs in 2 ch stereo. Exually the problem start whe I incorporated the DAC in my system?

[alspoll]

Is there a way to enable loopback in theaterview or using MCC commands to enter a url ? i tried entering it as a url in theaterviewbut it comes back with an error?

TIA,

AL

[Matt]

Is there a way to enable loopback in theaterview or using MCC commands to enter a url ? i tried entering it as a url in theaterviewbut it comes back with an error?

I think this shold work:

Play from Standard View, then add the file to a playlist named something like 'Loopback'.

Then play the playlist from Theater View.

[alspoll]

I think this shold work:

Play from Standard View, then add the file to a playlist named something like 'Loopback'.

Then play the playlist from Theater View.

Awesome! That worked.

Thank you.

[Mitchco]

Hi,

I am using Zune to stream music to JRiver in loopback mode.  JRiver is using my Lynx L22 sound card with ASIO driver.  With digital loopback on my Lynx card, I can route JRiver's output to my amp/speakers.

With Convolution in the path for DRC, I am getting dropouts, clicks, and pops. I have turned off use large buffers and set the buffer to 0.02 secs.  No change.  Without Convolution in the path, sound plays fine.

For fun, I have the old convolverVST plugin in JRiver, so I checked off Convolution and tried convolverVST.  So far, no dropouts and crystal clear sound...

I don't get it.  Anyone have any thoughts?

Cheers,

Mitch

[Matt]

Loopback doesn't support DSP effects that add latency in v17.

However, v18 (early versions coming in a few weeks) will address this.

Here's the history entry:
NEW: Loopback mode adapts the target latency automatically so that it works with effects that create delays like resampling, convolution, Dolby Digital output, etc.

[Mitchco]

Loopback doesn't support DSP effects that add latency in v17.

However, v18 (early versions coming in a few weeks) will address this.

Here's the history entry:
NEW: Loopback mode adapts the target latency automatically so that it works with effects that create delays like resampling, convolution, Dolby Digital output, etc.

Cool Matt, thanks.  If you are looking for a Beta tester...  :-)

[drhyoung]

Yet another great feature. Thanks Matt.

David

[natehansen66]

However, v18 (early versions coming in a few weeks) will address this.

Here's the history entry:
NEW: Loopback mode adapts the target latency automatically so that it works with effects that create delays like resampling, convolution, Dolby Digital output, etc.

I'm using v18, and just started using convolution. I'm using Output Format, Volume Leveling, Convolution, PEQ and Room Correction for DSP. Getting bad clicks and pops with Loopback, has this been addressed? Changing the buffer has no effect, though I'm getting stuttering audio with a low buffer and no loopback (.2 seconds right now for clean audio with no loopback). MC is set to resample everything to 48khz, my interface is set to 48khz, mic preamp is set to 48khz, and the filters are built for 48khz.

[Matt]

I'm using v18, and just started using convolution. I'm using Output Format, Volume Leveling, Convolution, PEQ and Room Correction for DSP. Getting bad clicks and pops with Loopback, has this been addressed?

Next build has a new algorithm for latency management during loopback playback that should work much better with "lumpy" DSPs like Convolution.

[natehansen66]

Next build has a new algorithm for latency management during loopback playback that should work much better with "lumpy" DSPs like Convolution.

Cool!

[Mitchco]

Next build has a new algorithm for latency management during loopback playback that should work much better with "lumpy" DSPs like Convolution.

Matt, thanks so much for this.  Works perfect!  I use ASIO line in at 24/96 with Audiolense and REW to pass sine wave sweeps through JRiver's audio engine.  I can toggle Convolution off/on to get before/after measurements to compare.  There are no clicks, pops, or stuttering at all.  Thanks again!

Cheers, Mitch

[hulkss]

Matt, thanks so much for this.  Works perfect!  I use ASIO line in at 24/96 with Audiolense and REW to pass sine wave sweeps through JRiver's audio engine.  I can toggle Convolution off/on to get before/after measurements to compare.  There are no clicks, pops, or stuttering at all.  Thanks again!

Cheers, Mitch

Cool. Gotta try this.

[rlebrette]

I've no pops or clicks, but I still have stuttering. How the hardware is influencing all this?
I've a M-Audio ProFire 640, a Q9550 and 2 GBytes of memory.

[natehansen66]

Matt, thanks so much for this.  Works perfect!  I use ASIO line in at 24/96 with Audiolense and REW to pass sine wave sweeps through JRiver's audio engine.  I can toggle Convolution off/on to get before/after measurements to compare.  There are no clicks, pops, or stuttering at all.  Thanks again!

Cheers, Mitch

How does that work? I thought the line in was for running external sources. Are you doing an actual physical loopback?

[natehansen66]

I'm still not having any luck with the loopback and convolution. It works to where I can do measurements with the loopback + convolution but I have to redo them quite a bit because of dropouts during the sweep.

I just realized a bit ago that its "WASAPI" loopback (duh!), and I've been using ASIO. The loopback works just fine without convolution in ASIO, but turn convolution on and it falls apart. I can't get the buffer small enough to play clean from my pc source and work with the loopback as well. 1.6 ms is as low as I can go and get clean playback from my pc source.

So I switched to WASAPI. With the smallest buffer (.05) I can get clean playback, with the occasional click and pop. The abnormal stuff seems to happen when I'm working on other things on the computer. When I just listen and not do anything else I get clean playback. Loopback works for maybe 20-30 seconds before going into static.

[rlebrette]

How does that work? I thought the line in was for running external sources. Are you doing an actual physical loopback?

No, this is a software loopback which is done at WASAPI level ( so it only works on Vista, 7 and 8 ).
You need two soundcards in your configuration, the motherboard's soundcard is usually used for that.
The other applications broadcast the sounds to it, and JRiver routes the WASAPI stream to its own DSP.

[Mitchco]

How does that work? I thought the line in was for running external sources. Are you doing an actual physical loopback?

In my case, I am using a Lynx Hilo which has an internal 32x32 digital mixer that allows flexible routing.  I made a diagram so I can remember the channel numbers and application offsets.

REW is also used in place of Audiolense on the diagram with the same routing. Both applications run at 24/96 ASIO as the Lynx driver is multi-client.  The bit-perfect indicator is on in JRiver when I run the sweeps, without the filter in Convolution. 

I use Audiolense to measure, design, and generate the 64-bit FIR correction filter.  Audiolense/REW sweeps are passed through JRiver's audio engine to be included in the measurement as the complete signal path.  The FIR correction filter is hosted in JRiver's 64-bit Convolution engine.  Before and after filter measures are achieved by toggling Convolution off/on.

This is one approach.

Cheers,  Mitch

[rlebrette]

In my case, I am using a Lynx Hilo which has an internal 32x32 digital mixer that allows flexible routing.  I made a diagram so I can remember the channel numbers and application offsets.

REW is also used in place of Audiolense on the diagram with the same routing. Both applications run at 24/96 ASIO as the Lynx driver is multi-client.  The bit-perfect indicator is on in JRiver when I run the sweeps, without the filter in Convolution. 

I use Audiolense to measure, design, and generate the 64-bit FIR correction filter.  Audiolense/REW sweeps are passed through JRiver's audio engine to be included in the measurement as the complete signal path.  The FIR correction filter is hosted in JRiver's 64-bit Convolution engine.  Before and after filter measures are achieved by toggling Convolution off/on.

This is one approach.

Cheers,  Mitch

Hi Mitch,

So, from what I understand, you are using the rewire facilities of your Lynx sound card. I don't understand in your schema how you use the WASAPI Loopback.

[natehansen66]

No, this is a software loopback which is done at WASAPI level ( so it only works on Vista, 7 and 8 ).
You need two soundcards in your configuration, the motherboard's soundcard is usually used for that.
The other applications broadcast the sounds to it, and JRiver routes the WASAPI stream to its own DSP.

I understand what the loopback is, and have been using it for some time. Please reread my other post. MitchCo is not using the loopback. He's using a new feature called ASIO Line In.

[Wull]

Hi.

Just getting my head round using this feature. So I was wandering if it has been taken any further. For instance, is there a short-cut available, or could you set a zone up linked to loopback?