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Author Topic: Internal Volume with convolution  (Read 14469 times)

Trumpetguy

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Re: Internal Volume with convolution
« Reply #50 on: February 29, 2012, 12:59:05 pm »

The solution by editing the convolution-file seems logical. But I struggle to understand the logic behind the Room Correction-solution:
- How does lowering all channels except the LFE/sub by -10db prevent low-passed signals sent to the sub from being 10db too loud?
If I set the LFE to 0db in Room Correction and measure 75dbC then all other channels should measure 65 dbC when calibrated. But since all other channels pass on the bass to the LFE-channel the low-pass signal will be 10db to high while the LFE-signal will be correct.

Am I way off?

EDIT:
Is it a solution if JRiver automatically cuts 10db from the low-passed signal? Then we can calibrate all channels to the correct level provided the convolution files are normalized to the same level.

I think you are off :)

When lowering all channels 10dB other than LFE in a 7.1 system with XO on all speakers this should happen:
There will be 8 channels processed into 15 paths.
Channels 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, are attenuated -10dB, sent to paths 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8.
Channel 4 (LFE) is 0dB and will be sent to path 4.
Paths 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8 are high-pass content from channel with same numbers, attenuated -10dB.
Paths 9 to 15 are low-passed contents from the channel 1 to 8 (not 4) which will be sent to path 4, all attenuated -10dB.
 
When the filter is applied to each of the 15 paths, the level of only one path will be 0dB, i.e. path 4. The other high- and low-pass paths signals are 10dB lower and  will be filtered -10dB lower than the LFE track, as there is no normlization going on during the convolution.
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hulkss

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Re: Internal Volume with convolution
« Reply #51 on: February 29, 2012, 07:36:14 pm »

the level of only one path will be 0dB, i.e. path 4. The other high- and low-pass paths signals are 10dB lower

Keep in mind this is a work around solution for a system set up with the same acoustic (amplifier/loudspeaker) gain on all channels including the LFE. JRiver MC properly defaults to a playback setting (per established industry standards) expecting the LFE channel to have 10 dB more gain than the others.

This discussion resulted because some of us (myself included) programmed convolver filters with the same resulting system gain on all channels. See the other thread I referenced below.
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Mikkel

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Re: Internal Volume with convolution
« Reply #52 on: February 29, 2012, 11:48:08 pm »

The idea is to only reduce the low-passed signal 10db since channel 4 (LFE+rerouted bass) is 10db higher. But thinking about it, it would cause problems with the cross-over region so it wouldn't work anyway.

I guess the only route for me, since that is the one I understand, is to make bass-management in the convolver config-file.


Best regards,
Mikkel
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Trumpetguy

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Re: Internal Volume with convolution
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2012, 02:12:37 am »

The idea is to only reduce the low-passed signal 10db since channel 4 (LFE+rerouted bass) is 10db higher. But thinking about it, it would cause problems with the cross-over region so it wouldn't work anyway.

I guess the only route for me, since that is the one I understand, is to make bass-management in the convolver config-file.


Ok, I may have misundertood your setup. I thought you used Audiolense XO and already did the bass management in the config file. As I tried to type down in my previous post, I believe that is the way to go. At least for now, since the only apparent work-around is to use Room Correction.

Maybe a pr channel setting such as delay and gain can be included in future JRiver convolution builds?
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hulkss

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Re: Internal Volume with convolution
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2012, 10:40:51 pm »

Maybe a pr channel setting such as delay and gain can be included in future JRiver convolution builds?

I believe JRiver MC is fine as is. Convlover filters that are doing bass management need to be designed to support industry standards.

I believe Bernt at Audiolense is going to incorporate an updated bass management solution into his software for the LFE channel.
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stealth82

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Re: Internal Volume with convolution
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2012, 08:03:26 am »

Sorry if I chime in with a not strictly related concern but I started wondering if I'm doing this right.

I tested the quality of MC Internal Volume control excluding for the first time my NAD pre-amp from my audio chain. I was stunned to realize how much less noise (playing the silence track provided with MC) the speakers produced without an additional pre-amp (with pre-amp configuration MC Internal Volume was always set to 100%).

Therefore, I decided to get rid of the external pre-amp and rely exclusively on my Xonar ST card. Suddenly I got caught into this +10db LFE riddle.
I think I successfully managed to level match my speakers for producing correct convolution filters keeping in mind the "low frequencies for interested channels redirected to sub lowered by 10db" rule. The last step was to level match all channels by means of room correction. Actually sub gets +6.0db or so there.

Now the problem is that even if I crank the volume up to 100% (0db) my system doesn't sound that loud as it used to be with my previous config (NAD pre-amp). The convolution filter has nothing to do with that, it's the first thing that I disabled in order to understand what leveled down the overall volume. The only thing I came up with was the +6.0db for the SW channel in the Room Correction DSP.

Obviously adding digital volume to the SW, instead of relative leveling my speakers through the Room Correction, immediately engages the clipping protection. So it seems there's no way to make my system sound louder. And I assure you it can sound louder. Unfortunately I have no SW analog gain to adjust...

Just to handle a side effect produced by this "problem" I had to prepare another zone for stereo music with a 2.0 channel setup in order to exclude Room Correction. Why? Certain classical music tracks of mine have been recorded with so low volume (great dynamic range) that played at 0db (100% MC internal volume) are still too quiet. But, as soon as I removed Room Correction (left Convolution for two channels though) I could happily listen to when with volume set to 98% or so.

Obviously with movies played at 100% of volume I'm just right there or slightly less than I would hope for. So, I'm not exactly satisfied.
What I discovered, and that before allowed me to get around the issue, is that any pre-amp boosts the SW output by 10db. That was the necessary boost that allowed me to level match all of my channel without losing in reachable overall volume.

What should I do?
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hulkss

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Re: Internal Volume with convolution
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2012, 08:09:44 pm »

Don't use +6 dB in room correction, instead  turn up your subwoofer by 6 dB (assuming you have a powered subwoofer that is not at 100%).
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stealth82

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Re: Internal Volume with convolution
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2012, 01:17:02 am »

As I said I don't have any control on the subwoofer. It's not powered, I can't adjust its gain...
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mojave

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Re: Internal Volume with convolution
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2012, 09:14:51 am »

You could add a Line Level Gain Boost before the subwoofer. This is what the NAD was doing, but you can get a simpler and less noisy device.
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