Topic: High End Sound Card (or USB DAC) For New Build (Read 24923 times)

greynolds · « **on:** April 08, 2012, 09:07:42 am »

I'm in the process of building a new PC to replace the system I use in my home office. One of the main uses of this PC is to listen to music played in J River Media Center on my home office audio system (NAD M3 integrated amp and Focal 1027i speakers).

The old PC has a M-Audio Delta 410 PCI in it that I've been happy with, but the new PC only has PCIe slots, so I'm going to need to replace the Delta 410 with something else. The options I'm currently considering are the Asus Xonar Essence STX, Cambridge Audio DacMagic and DacMagic Plus, and the Musical Fidelity V-DAC II. I really only need 2 channel analog output, so audio inputs, digital in/outs, etc. aren't important. Support for high bitrates is definitely desirable and sound quality is extremely important.

If anyone has experience with some (or all) of these, especially compared to the Delta 410, I'd appreciate some feedback to help with my decision. Suggestions for other options (even if they're somewhat more expensive) are also welcome. I'm expecting to live with whichever option I go with for a while, so I'd rather spend a bit more to get what I want than save a few bucks and regret my decision.

I'm open to going with an internal PCIe card, and USB or Firewire external options.

goatherder · « **Reply #1 on:** April 08, 2012, 10:28:55 am »

As far as a cheap USB DAC goes I like the look and features of the Audiolab MDAC. It's cheaper than the Benchmark DAC1 and offers more (though it is AFAIK limited to 96K for USB).

As for high end, depends on what you consider high end.

Urbanito · « **Reply #2 on:** April 08, 2012, 10:37:12 am »

If you want a really cheap DAC with a very nice sound that you may improve later since it is really cheap, you can't go wrong with the FIIO E10.
You can buy it at Amazon and you will be astonished how great the sound is. On top of that, it has a head amplifier of very good sound. The size? Like a cigarette package.

greynolds · « **Reply #3 on:** April 08, 2012, 04:08:48 pm »

Like I said, I'm not looking for "cheap". I'm looking for something that will be at least as good as the M-Audio Delta 410. If that means spending up towards $1000 (for example), that's fine. I'm assuming the Cambridge Audio DacMagic's and the Musical Fidelity V-DAC II would probably be fine, the question really is how the Asus sound card I mentioned will compare.

Urbanito · « **Reply #4 on:** April 09, 2012, 04:53:18 am »

Then, I will deeply recommend CEntrance DAC mini CX. It has everything. If you want to connect it directly to an amplifier, you should order it wiyh variable output.
They also supply for free an ASIO driver. http://centrance.com/products/dacmini/
I am using it with a Hi End system with excellent results. I also tried Musical Fidelity, but find this clearly better.
Best wishes and good decision

goatherder · « **Reply #5 on:** April 09, 2012, 05:39:26 am »

Quote from: greynolds on April 08, 2012, 04:08:48 pm

Like I said, I'm not looking for "cheap". I'm looking for something that will be at least as good as the M-Audio Delta 410. If that means spending up towards $1000 (for example), that's fine. I'm assuming the Cambridge Audio DacMagic's and the Musical Fidelity V-DAC II would probably be fine, the question really is how the Asus sound card I mentioned will compare.

Yes, as I said as far as a cheap DAC goes, something like an Audiolab MDAC seems like a good bet to me. It's about $900 and apart from the lack of 192K USB output, I can't really fault the performance, specs or features for the price. The Benchmark DAC1 is a... well, benchmark, but I also like this machine.

http://www.planetofsoundonline.com/view.php?cur=us&m=40a0ee23d6

http://www.audiolab.co.uk/M-DAC%20Series.aspx?lang=En
Manual here: http://www.audiolab.co.uk/Downloading.aspx?Lang=En&Tab2=Manuals

Mind you, the above poster's Centrance definitely looks like a contender as well, though I'm not sure how much better it would be to the cheaper, 'name', TEAC UD-H01. http://www.amazon.com/Teac-UDH01-S-Digital-Converter-Interface/dp/B00647H30S

Among other issues, I've found that what I put inside the PC has a major bearing on the sound of the Asus (and I'm not talking about what I can express in BS faudiophile flowery prose or some stupid uncontrolled measurements taken with some other junk soundcard, but what was really extremely clearly audible in terms bzzzts, clicks and thputts). I think the hype is unjustified - or at best, needs tempering a little - and the other features of the card left me cold as well (the Dolby implementation is crud). On the basis of the community overhype in that respect, I'm also not inclined to recommend the outboard Asus - though I haven't bought one (yet).

monkman · « **Reply #6 on:** April 09, 2012, 06:25:01 am »

I've had great success with an E-MU 1010m PCIe card>S/PDIF>PSaudio DAC III>balanced XLRs>Goldpoint attenuator>balanced XLRs>Parasound amp. I've tried direct from mobo (Asus Deluxe) and USB and found neither to as smooth as the E-MU to a good outboard DAC. With an E-MU at 24bit, output level can be easily tweaked (handy for low-level listening) and more importantly for me, monitored. Levels can be easily checked for any clipping that occasionally occurs.

Additionally, I find it handy to have absolute phase instantly switchable in the E-MU. Again, in my case, the PSaudio DAC III inverts polarity and I prefer that it leave the signal output non-inverting (most of the time). With the E-MU I've found that to have everything internally basically do nothing, sounds best. In other words, I don't touch the DSP options in JRiver for any EQ and such. Same too, for the E-MU. The signal is simply passed as cleanly as possible, with an eye on levels and on very rare occasions, a slight balance adjustment.

With the two default strips in the Patchmix DSP panel of the E-MU, all music and radio goes out the ASIO strip, with the WAV set aside for whatever audio feed comes from Youtube or whatever...

Price for the E-MU is $150US... a real value given it's no-nonsense flexibility, accuracy and quality.

greynolds · « **Reply #7 on:** April 09, 2012, 09:35:30 am »

Thanks for the suggestions.

Just to clarify what I mean by "high-end". I basically mean something that's at least a few notches above the Soundblaster crap that's out there. To me, though there's always a budget to consider, high-end really has nothing to do with price but is rather about the performance one gets out of the product. So for this application I guess I'd consider anything at least as good as the M-Audio Delta 410 as high-end. Use of the word cheap usually implies junk to me, so when I see someone recommend a "cheap" option my initial thought tends to be that it isn't worth considering.

I actually hadn't considered the option of using digital out from the PC to an outboard DAC, but that does open up a bunch of other options. I like the idea of using the E-MU 1010m S/PDIF output and something like a PS Audio Digital Link III DAC (I assume that's what monkman meant as there doesn't appear to be a PS Audio DAC III product), Benchmark DAC1 (I had, for some reason, forgotten about that option), or the Audiolab M-DAC for the D/A conversion. I suspect any of these would be at least a slight upgrade over my M-Audio Delta 410

. One knock against the Audiolab is that they don't appear to have much in the way of dealers in the USA - I prefer to avoid purchasing stuff like this from companies that don't have some sort of "local" presence when other excellent options are available.

Since I'd like to stay under ~$1000 any of the above combos would fit the budget (the Benchmark + E-MU being a slight stretch).

monkman · « **Reply #8 on:** April 13, 2012, 08:33:54 am »

One more possibility to consider, that I'd do, is the Cambridge DacMagic Plus + E-MU and under 1K. Just read a good review on it yesterday and have to apologize for having a senior moment...

Anyway, they seem to have resolved USB so the E-MU wouldn't really be needed and while the attenuator might be somewhat different in feel, that it would be a good step up from what Benchmark originally had in their box. Either way, Benchmark, or the new DC+... tasty stuff. Fwiw, I'd throw a used Lavry into the mix too.

kaiynne · « **Reply #9 on:** April 13, 2012, 09:00:35 am »

I have been using the Calyx coffee for the last week and it is pretty amazing for the price. I'm demoing a few more over the next few weeks but it would take some beating.

pcstockton · « **Reply #10 on:** April 13, 2012, 09:33:19 am »

How about MF's V-DACII??? My best friend has it and it is stunning for the price.

You should be able to score it for $450 or less.

-patrick

greynolds · « **Reply #11 on:** April 13, 2012, 10:19:37 am »

Quote from: monkman on April 13, 2012, 08:33:54 am

One more possibility to consider, that I'd do, is the Cambridge DacMagic Plus + E-MU and under 1K. Just read a good review on it yesterday and have to apologize for having a senior moment...

Anyway, they seem to have resolved USB so the E-MU wouldn't really be needed and while the attenuator might be somewhat different in feel, that it would be a good step up from what Benchmark originally had in their box. Either way, Benchmark, or the new DC+... tasty stuff. Fwiw, I'd throw a used Lavry into the mix too.

I ordered the E-MU 1010m earlier this week and now have that. I don't see any drivers listed for it on E-MU/Creative's website. Am I correct in understanding that I should just use the drivers for one of the cards it's designed to work with (I'll be running Windows 7 Ultimate 64 Bit and I'm pretty sure the drivers that shipped in the box don't include Win 7)?

I'm still debating about (obsessing over?

) which DAC to go with, but am ruling anything that's USB only at this point.

What's the DC+ (I didn't see anything obvious from a Google search)? I didn't see much from Lavry on Audiogon or ebay. At full price, they're probably more than I want to spend.

Listener · « **Reply #12 on:** April 13, 2012, 12:11:14 pm »

Quote from: greynolds on April 13, 2012, 10:19:37 am

I ordered the E-MU 1010m earlier this week and now have that. I don't see any drivers listed for it on E-MU/Creative's website. Am I correct in understanding that I should just use the drivers for one of the cards it's designed to work with (I'll be running Windows 7 Ultimate 64 Bit and I'm pretty sure the drivers that shipped in the box don't include Win 7)?

I'm still debating about (obsessing over? ) which DAC to go with, but am ruling anything that's USB only at this point.

What's the DC+ (I didn't see anything obvious from a Google search)? I didn't see much from Lavry on Audiogon or ebay. At full price, they're probably more than I want to spend.

Note that the 1010m doesn't have analog output.

The E-mu 12112m is the 1010 PCIe card plus a 0202 daughter card (that has the analog I/O.)

The 1010 should come with drivers. However, the 12112m drivers for Vista/W7 on the Creative web site might work with the 1010 card.

I believe that MC can switch sample rate/size for the E-Mu card through the ASIO interface but not through the DirectSound or WASAPI interface. You would have to change the sample rate/size through the E-Mu PatchMix software.

I have a Juli@ PCI card that works fine on an Win XP PC for analog, coax SPDIF or optical (Toslink) digital output. I have no idea how it will that card would work on a Sandy Bridge or Ivy Bridge motherboard. The ASIO driver has been trouble free for several years. (There are two limitations: the ASIO interface doesn't recover after the PC goes through sleep/wakeup and you can't open more than one session. It isn't multi-client ASIO. That means that I can't use both the analog and digital outputs at the same time from MC.)

Bill

greynolds · « **Reply #13 on:** April 13, 2012, 01:17:29 pm »

Quote from: Listener on April 13, 2012, 12:11:14 pm

Note that the 1010m doesn't have analog output.

That was the whole point of going with that card - to send digital output to an external DAC.

Quote

The 1010 should come with drivers. However, the 12112m drivers for Vista/W7 on the Creative web site might work with the 1010 card.

It did come with drivers, but AFAIK the CD's it comes with don't have drivers for W7. So looking at the 1212m, it looks like the 1010 is the main card and the 0202 is the analog I/O daughter card that ships with the 1010 in the 1212 package, so the 1212 drivers ought to work with it standalone. Similarly, with the 1616m, it comes with a 1010 and an external box instead of the 0202 that the 1212 package comes with. So drivers for either package should work just fine given that monkman is running only the 1010 with no issues, so I think I'm all set here.

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I have a Juli@ PCI card that works fine on an Win XP PC for analog, coax SPDIF or optical (Toslink) digital output. I have no idea how it will that card would work on a Sandy Bridge or Ivy Bridge motherboard. The ASIO driver has been trouble free for several years. (There are two limitations: the ASIO interface doesn't recover after the PC goes through sleep/wakeup and you can't open more than one session. It isn't multi-client ASIO. That means that I can't use both the analog and digital outputs at the same time from MC.)

As mentioned in my original post, PCI cards aren't an option with my new motherboard (PCIe only) which is what got me started on deciding what to replace my M-Audio Delta 410 with.

pcstockton · « **Reply #14 on:** April 13, 2012, 03:59:47 pm »

Quote from: greynolds on April 13, 2012, 10:19:37 am

I'm still debating about (obsessing over? ) which DAC to go with, but am ruling anything that's USB only at this point.

The short list should be:
- Naim DAC (USB is only for thumb drives and iOS devices)
- Rega DAC (USB+)
- VDAC (USB+)

goatherder · « **Reply #15 on:** April 13, 2012, 04:17:45 pm »

Dunno. Given all the above, I'd say the DAC1 USB will do everything you need it to do, and it's a 'safe choice'.

If it helps, the setup I use with most of my desktops is a single soundcard - either the RME Fireface UFX or the Prism Orpheus. Straight to the power amp or the monitors - and the majority of my computer-only setups are at least as good as yours at the speaker end.

The UCX, the smaller brother of the UFX with pretty much the same specs as far as I'm aware, is approx $1600. I use several line ins and also broadcast-grade mics for Skype / gaming so I prefer more I/O even on my more basic setups. Incredibly flexible, ships with nice sonic software toys for analysis, high quality I/O - for not that much more than the ~$1K 'nice DACs'. Just a suggestion.

Listener · « **Reply #16 on:** April 13, 2012, 04:23:21 pm »

Quote from: greynolds on April 13, 2012, 01:17:29 pm

So looking at the 1212m, it looks like the 1010 is the main card and the 0202 is the analog I/O daughter card that ships with the 1010 in the 1212 package, so the 1212 drivers ought to work with it standalone. Similarly, with the 1616m, it comes with a 1010 and an external box instead of the 0202 that the 1212 package comes with. So drivers for either package should work just fine given that monkman is running only the 1010 with no issues, so I think I'm all set here.

I pointed out the relation of the 1010 card to the 1212m to you and the possibility that the driver for the 1212m might work.

> It did come with drivers, but AFAIK the CD's it comes with don't have drivers for W7.

If there is a Vista driver, try it on your W7 PC. The driver architecture is the same.

> That was the whole point of going with that card - to send digital output to an external DAC.

In your original post, you said

" I really only need 2 channel analog output, so audio inputs, digital in/outs, etc. aren't important. Support for high bitrates is definitely desirable and sound quality is extremely important."

I pointed out a possible problem you might have been unaware of. That also provided the setting for my discussion of the relation of the 1010 and the daughter card. You seem unable to accept what others write.

> As mentioned in my original post, PCI cards aren't an option with my new motherboard (PCIe only)
> which is what got me started on deciding what to replace my M-Audio Delta 410 with.

If you like the M-Audio card, buying another motherboard with a PCI slot for ~ $ 100 might be a sensible alternative.

E-mu drivers don't have a good reputation.

Bill

greynolds · « **Reply #17 on:** April 13, 2012, 05:10:42 pm »

Quote from: Listener on April 13, 2012, 04:23:21 pm

I pointed out the relation of the 1010 card to the 1212m to you and the possibility that the driver for the 1212m might work.

Yes you did and sorry my response came across as ignoring that - it certainly wasn't my intent. I was trying to keep things relatively brief during a short break from doing my day job that pays the bills...

Quote

If there is a Vista driver, try it on your W7 PC. The driver architecture is the same.

The driver architecture is the same, but that doesn't always translate into things working well. Given that a Win7 driver appears to be available I'd much rather go with that.

Quote

In your original post, you said

" I really only need 2 channel analog output, so audio inputs, digital in/outs, etc. aren't important. Support for high bitrates is definitely desirable and sound quality is extremely important."

I did say that in my original post, but I hadn't considered the option of going with an external DAC via a SPDIF connection at that point and have decided to include that as a possible option.

Quote

I pointed out a possible problem you might have been unaware of.

That problem that you mentioned most likely isn't an issue in my intended use.

Quote

You seem unable to accept what others write.

Where the heck did this come from? I've gotten a bunch of different suggestions from a bunch of different people (none of whom I know well) that I'm considering. The only consensus seems to be that the Benchmark DAC1 (with or without USB) is a very good choice for a DAC. Chances are that I'm only going to select one of the possible options in the end and I hope I don't offend anyone by going with something other than what they suggest. I definitely appreciate the feedback, but please don't take offense if I don't follow what any one person suggests.

Quote

If you like the M-Audio card, buying another motherboard with a PCI slot for ~ $ 100 might be a sensible alternative.

Not an option. I'm happy with the M-Audio card, but the system upgrade is a done deal (motherboard, CPU, RAM, video card, etc. are all in hand). The Delta 410 is a long discontinued product so I'm not confident it would be a good choice to stick with anyway (for instance, I wouldn't be surprised if M-Audio doesn't make driver updates available for Win8 if they're needed).

Quote

E-mu drivers don't have a good reputation.

That's something I wasn't aware of and it's certainly not too late for me to reconsider going with the 1010 to feed an external DAC. Just trying to locate drivers for the 1010 on their website certainly didn't give me a ton of confidence in them and of course the association with Creative (now that Creative owns them) doesn't exactly inspire a ton of confidence.

Listener · « **Reply #18 on:** April 13, 2012, 07:39:01 pm »

>> If there is a Vista driver, try it on your W7 PC. The driver architecture is the same.

>The driver architecture is the same, but that doesn't always translate into things working well.
> Given that a Win7 driver appears to be available I'd much rather go with that.

I suggested an additional alternative as I suggested that the drivers for the 1212m might work for the 1010 by itself.

>> You seem unable to accept what others write.

> Where the heck did this come from?

I took the time to think about your purchase and to offer considered advice. Your response in both posts has been to dismiss what I said and argue. When you ask for advice, have the grace to acknowledge any responses you receive.

> I've gotten a bunch of different suggestions from a bunch of different people (none of whom I know well) that I'm considering. ...

If that is a problem, why did you ask for suggestions?

> I definitely appreciate the feedback, but please don't take offense if I don't follow what any one person suggests.

This exchange has not been about your taking my advice. It has been about your unwillingness to offer even a minimal acknowledgement of receiving that advice.

Bill

pcstockton · « **Reply #19 on:** April 13, 2012, 08:00:51 pm »

The benchmark is not the way to go in my honest opinion. It is a very sterile DAC. The Rega DAC should be in the same ballpark price wise and the second best thing to spending about $3.5K

goatherder · « **Reply #20 on:** April 13, 2012, 08:45:35 pm »

Sterile? Or accurate?

I do notice many fauxdiophiles do lean towards colour over quality - if those DACs are indeed coloured, because sometimes opinions of how things sound from those guys appear to be based on how industrial the casing looks, or how much wood there is on it.

Anyhoo, who cares when you have EQ.

monkman · « **Reply #21 on:** April 13, 2012, 09:08:49 pm »

greynolds, just grab everything for the 1212.

pcstockton · « **Reply #22 on:** April 13, 2012, 10:34:29 pm »

Quote from: goatherder on April 13, 2012, 08:45:35 pm

Sterile? Or accurate?

Both. It is a nice enough DAC, it is just a little boring. You can do much better for similar outlay. But it really doesn't matter what I think. My suggestion is to demo the Benchmark and the Rega DAC. Let your ears do the walking.

Of course no one would spend a grand on a DAC without demoing at home in one's own system.

I assume the OP is looking for a short list to demo.

I extensively demoed the Benchmark DAC (non pre version). I didn't like it so I offered my opinion.

Check out Naim's olive range if you think design greatly affects my appreciation of, or lack thereof, the presentation. While I find Naim's gear sexy as hell and very cool design, it is certainly "industrial". It does not convey the enormously high boogie factor and live sounds contained inside.

I would also suggest the Naim DAC although it is over three times the price of the Benchmark/Rega.

Good listening!
Patrick

pcstockton · « **Reply #23 on:** April 13, 2012, 10:41:02 pm »

Oh... And i am not talking about "coloration", "brightness", or any other hifi term. By sterile I meant just that, not productive. It doesn't make me have an emotional connection to the music. It doesn't make me tap my feet. It doesn't make me smile without realizing it.

That's all.

greynolds · « **Reply #24 on:** April 13, 2012, 11:47:53 pm »

Quote from: Listener on April 13, 2012, 07:39:01 pm

I suggested an additional alternative as I suggested that the drivers for the 1212m might work for the 1010 by itself.

Yes you did, which basically answered my guess that this might be the case (though I didn't specifically list the 1212m).

Quote

I took the time to think about your purchase and to offer considered advice. Your response in both posts has been to dismiss what I said and argue. When you ask for advice, have the grace to acknowledge any responses you receive.

My intent isn't to shoot you down, disregard what you say, or offend you, but rather to simply address the points in the post. To address one of the specific points you're probably referring to - suggesting that I try Vista drivers when Windows 7 drivers are available just isn't good advice IMHO. If Windows 7 drivers weren't available (or ended up not working with the card), then it would be worthwhile (and good advice) to try the Vista drivers.

Quote

> I've gotten a bunch of different suggestions from a bunch of different people (none of whom I know well) that I'm considering. ...

If that is a problem, why did you ask for suggestions?

It's not a "problem" exactly, but the responses are generally expanding my list of options to consider rather than narrowing them down which is something I was (I think obviously) hoping to avoid. I guess that's to be expected to a certain degree because most people tend to recommend what they own and there are quite a few options available hence N different suggestions from N different people. I asked for suggestions to a) get feedback on the specific options I was considering at the time of the original post b) see if there were reasonable options (such as SPDIF out to an external DAC) that I wasn't considering c) to see if there were other options roughly in the price range I was considering that lots of people happen to be happy with.

Quote

> I definitely appreciate the feedback, but please don't take offense if I don't follow what any one person suggests.

This exchange has not been about your taking my advice. It has been about your unwillingness to offer even a minimal acknowledgement of receiving that advice.

If you're looking for me to essentially post a "thanks for your suggestion" reply to every post, I quite honestly don't consider that productive in a forum such as this (and rarely see that sort of behavior on any forum) as it just clogs up the thread with replies that don't add any value to the discussion. I'm taking most of the suggestions into consideration and am trying to reply to the thread when I have a follow up question or comment that I feel is relevant.

Like I said before though, I do appreciate all the suggestions and advice people are offering. Just because I might disagree with some of it doesn't mean it isn't appreciated. After all, if I agreed with all the suggestions, I'd end up buying 30 or so different DAC's, several PCIe cards, a few firewire audio interfaces, and a few other things and go WAY over my intended budget.

But the bottom line is that if you feel that I'm being rude, unappreciative, argumentative, or whatever, you certainly don't owe me the courtesy of spending the time to offer your opinion.

greynolds · « **Reply #25 on:** April 14, 2012, 12:12:22 am »

Quote from: pcstockton on April 13, 2012, 10:34:29 pm

Of course no one would spend a grand on a DAC without demoing at home in one's own system.

True and the plan is to make a relatively expensive purchase such as this from a place with a good return policy.

Quote

I assume the OP is looking for a short list to demo.

Yeah - that was sort of my hope. I think the relatively short list is becoming something like:

- Benchmark DAC1 (and E-MU 1010) or Benchmark DAC1 USB (my concern with the Benchmark is the age of the design and the seemingly love it or hate it diversity in opinions of it, but buying it with from a store with a good return policy would give me the chance to form my own opinion)
- CEntrance DACmini CX (with or without the E-MU 1010)
- Wired4Sound DAC-1 (with or without the E-MU 1010)
- Cambridge Audio DACMagic Plus (with or without the E-MU 1010)

I haven't been able to track down any other PCIe cards (nor have there been other suggestions in this thread) from other brands that are comparable to the E-MU 1010 and relatively affordable. There also doesn't seem to be much in the way of options for PCIe cards with quality analog audio outputs that are reasonably affordable and the only comments on the Asus card I was considering seemed to be negative. The suggestion that was made to use the RME Fireface UCX was a good one, but it's really more than I want to spend. I have a hunch that I'd probably be happy with just about any of these options, so I should probably just pick one and see how it goes.

Quote

I would also suggest the Naim DAC although it is over three times the price of the Benchmark/Rega.

Naim definitely makes nice stuff, but their DAC is definitely a lot more expensive than I'm willing to spend on this little project.

pcstockton · « **Reply #26 on:** April 14, 2012, 02:18:07 am »

dude.... if you are spending a grand you really need to entertain the Rega DAC. It is the best DAC at the price point.

-Patrick

pcstockton · « **Reply #27 on:** April 14, 2012, 02:20:04 am »

...and, no need to buy everything, dealers will/should happily lend you some kit to demo.

TAKE YOUR TIME. Don't rush.

-Patrick

greynolds · « **Reply #28 on:** April 14, 2012, 08:29:09 am »

Quote from: pcstockton on April 14, 2012, 02:20:04 am

...and, no need to buy everything, dealers will/should happily lend you some kit to demo.

I was mostly joking about having to buy everything

. But all joking aside, the local dealers I know (in the Boston, MA area) don't carry most of the options that are being discussed here - they seem to have really inexpensive (sub $300) entry level stuff or really high end (>$2000) stuff for the most part. There's one dealer that carries the Cambridge Audio DAC's. So for the most part, this leaves me with the option of going with mail order and I'd prefer not to spend a bunch of money trying things out and eating the shipping cost. I also try to be considerate of the fact that if I try something out via mail order and return it the dealer can no longer sell it at full price because it's now an open box. Hence the reason I'd like to narrow things down to a fairly short list of choices that are likely to work out well.

I'll take another look at the Rega - my concern with them was that I saw some not so favorable reviews when hunting around on Google.

Urbanito · « **Reply #29 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:35:59 am »

I am sorry to come back, but you can try CEntrance DAC Mni X http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_4_10?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=centrance+dacmini+cx&sprefix=CEntrance+%2Caps%2C573
As you know, Amazon gives you sometime to try it and to send it back.
If you decide so, please go to CEntrance site and download their drivers for free.
I don't like Rega at all and I tried it and other products from this brand.
Please read a review witch also compares it with the best:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/centrance/1.html

Good shopping.

goatherder · « **Reply #30 on:** April 14, 2012, 10:44:10 am »

Quote from: pcstockton on April 13, 2012, 10:34:29 pm

Both. It is a nice enough DAC, it is just a little boring. You can do much better for similar outlay. But it really doesn't matter what I think. My suggestion is to demo the Benchmark and the Rega DAC. Let your ears do the walking.

Of course no one would spend a grand on a DAC without demoing at home in one's own system.

I assume the OP is looking for a short list to demo.

I extensively demoed the Benchmark DAC (non pre version). I didn't like it so I offered my opinion.

Check out Naim's olive range if you think design greatly affects my appreciation of, or lack thereof, the presentation. While I find Naim's gear sexy as hell and very cool design, it is certainly "industrial". It does not convey the enormously high boogie factor and live sounds contained inside.

I would also suggest the Naim DAC although it is over three times the price of the Benchmark/Rega.

Good listening!
Patrick

I've owned both. The Rega is - not that it's terrible in any shape or form, not in the least - more for fauxiophiles. The Benchmark is for objective audiophiles. I haven't tried the USB version tho.

The Naim - I got a fairly 'meh' impression of that, but didn't bench it or give it a huge listen so I can't say anything. Still wondering whether I should buy it to make all the boxes match now that I've dusted off my ancient Naim gear to stick in the backup den. Probably will pass, aim for something else.

goatherder · « **Reply #31 on:** April 14, 2012, 10:56:18 am »

Quote from: pcstockton on April 13, 2012, 10:41:02 pm

Oh... And i am not talking about "coloration", "brightness", or any other hifi term. By sterile I meant just that, not productive. It doesn't make me have an emotional connection to the music. It doesn't make me tap my feet. It doesn't make me smile without realizing it.

That's all.

Yes, and that's why I said who cares when you have EQ. All the fancy terms that get used in the flowery BS prose that usually masquerades as a device review basically boils down to a) how the reviewer is feeling at the time b) what the gear looks like as well as if the reviewer is actually any good (super-rare) c) whether there's actually a tonal variation. Failing a miraculous exact match to your personal taste from a device which does actually deviate from a flat response, judicious use of EQ is what toe-tapping comes down to in the end. Plain premium-beef patty with no filler which you can season to taste > McD's, though some may complain the former lacks flavor.

pcstockton · « **Reply #32 on:** April 14, 2012, 01:36:43 pm »

What is EQ?

I listen to everything as it comes out. My preamp doesn't have any tone controls. Just the way I like it. Seriously though, people still use Equalizers? I haven't seen one in a hifi rig in decades.

Your distinction between "audiophile" and "fauxiophiles" is lost on me. I am not really sure what you are referring to or talking about other than you seem to dislike the latter. I personally just really enjoy music. I have found that NOTHING out there compares to Naim's "house sound". It is crazily live and energetic. But i dont think it does those hifi things very well, e.g. Imaging, Separation,

Lastly, dont read reviews online. The internet is the most dishonest place sometimes. Especially regarding negative vs positive type reviews. The negative vocal minority ALWAYS prevails. Go talk to your dealers or some like-minded friends and acquaintances. What are they using? What do they suggest? Why do they dig it? What kind of music do they like? And then you? It will surely be more fun than reading 6 positive reviews and 4 negative reviews from who knows who?

Enjoy demoing some DACs! It is always great fun.

Cheers!
Patrick

goatherder · « **Reply #33 on:** April 15, 2012, 06:27:25 am »

'Trust your ears' and 'Just enjoy the music' are the most trite pieces of advice possible online. 'What is EQ?' is also the crowning statement of the deluded fauxdiophile

However, I do agree about online reviews, especially from variable-reviewer and amateur sources - Too many people don't take into account the variability of the environment they demo stuff in when getting gushy about gear, and the tendency towards an informed purchase for most audiophiles is still as objective as figuring out how much cheese is on the moon.

Not that resources available make your decision at all easy. Which is why I rarely demo anything unless my interest is initial - if I'm actually interested, I buy, listen with parameters fixed (output levels, etc) and bench - to e.g. the extent of hiring artificial heads when comparing headphones. Not everyone has the ability to do that I appreciate but I also appreciate to myself that it gives me a much more objective outlook (and as a result have my opinion be very divergent with a lot of the people out there) on the relative merits of kit.

*Then* I enjoy my music, with the reasonable assurance that I haven't bought into too much BS - though I fully realize that anything beyond a couple of hundred bucks on each box on the back of your speakers gets you truly micro-incremental upgrades at best.

pcstockton · « **Reply #34 on:** April 15, 2012, 03:59:54 pm »

Dude, seriously. If "trust your ears" is BS to you, I have nothing more to say on the subject. I figured that advice was universally accepted as the best possible method of deciding on hifi equipment. Who cares what anyone writes or says? Who cares what the "specs" are? I really think listening in one's own system is most important. The single biggest factor in any set-up is the room.

Enjoy your graphs and hifi reviews.

greynolds · « **Reply #35 on:** April 15, 2012, 05:47:28 pm »

Quote from: pcstockton on April 15, 2012, 03:59:54 pm

Dude, seriously. If "trust your ears" is BS to you, I have nothing more to say on the subject. I figured that advice was universally accepted as the best possible method of deciding on hifi equipment. Who cares what anyone writes or says? Who cares what the "specs" are? I really think listening in one's own system is most important. The single biggest factor in any set-up is the room.

Enjoy your graphs and hifi reviews.

Reviews and forum suggestions are definitely useful to help narrow down the list of choices. Sometimes if you get an overwhelming consensus on something (like if 90% of the posters had suggested that DAC XYZ was definitely the way to go for DAC's $1000 and below) one can just pick that option and not worry any further - I was sort of hoping that might happen in this thread, but I'm not exactly surprised that it didn't. But the bottom line most definitely is that if what you get doesn't sound good to you in your own system which sounds fine with any existing sources, nothing else really matters.

goatherder · « **Reply #36 on:** April 16, 2012, 06:01:55 am »

I doubt you'll get that anywhere, except where someone's paying for the opinion.

With some people, it's all about how they feel about it and often that's too vague a yardstick to establish any baseline as to why and how something is better than anything. I like to temper it with some quantifiable data so that I'm not buying totally into BS.

Anyone who derides EQ while talking in the above manner is however an example of the classic subjectivist audiophile variety - and from them, a Naim or similar 'slightly kooky name' recommendation is about as predictable as a bear crapping in the woods.

Generally speaking I have good luck with the competent Chinese stuff from value brands at the low end, decent studio or primarily pro-aimed gear at the low-middle end for everyday computer-based use, and the ultra-high-end obsession level for the times where I decide to say '**** diminishing returns, I want impressive garnish for my mancave' - though in those cases I'm not so much paying for sound, but for shiny furniture. But these days I sit down for music so rarely that it needs to be an occasion when I'm not listening to it through a PC.

greynolds · « **Reply #37 on:** April 16, 2012, 05:44:29 pm »

I've finally made a decision and have decided to give the Benchmark DAC1 a try. The decision was made a bit easier because an Audio Advisor catalog arrived today and they had a pretty decent deal (I think...

) on a demo unit with the factory warranty, original box, etc. With free shipping and a 30 day return period, I figured I'd give it a shot. I should have it later this week.

The new PC build is well on the way. I've got the system (mostly) assembled (other than a few parts like additional hard drives that will move over once things are further along). Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit, drivers for just about everything, Windows updates, Microsoft Security Essentials, and a few apps are installed. So I should be in a good position to give the DAC1 a try when it arrives.

monkman · « **Reply #38 on:** April 16, 2012, 09:52:52 pm »

Good choice, greynolds. You should really enjoy it. Kinda think when it's dialed in you'll be surprised and pleased with what the Benchmark brings to the food chain. I finished my build when w7x64 was released. One gutted P182, totally rebuilt, totally quiet, PC later, with the 2 SSDs, MC, and few other things. I find it a total pleasure. Good luck and listening.

A minor, but pleasant change to the Patchmix DSP. Top right, red button w/down arrow- flip it to Proteus skin, the default is the XP... you might prefer it.

greynolds · « **Reply #39 on:** April 17, 2012, 05:31:56 pm »

Quote from: monkman on April 16, 2012, 09:52:52 pm

A minor, but pleasant change to the Patchmix DSP. Top right, red button w/down arrow- flip it to Proteus skin, the default is the XP... you might prefer it.

Thanks for the tip. I like the look of the default skin better, but the contrast for actually reading the labels is a lot better with the Proteus skin.

Audioseduction · « **Reply #40 on:** May 10, 2012, 05:15:26 pm »

A good DAC is vital for a excellent playback performance as well as many other parts of your system!

greynolds · « **Reply #41 on:** May 10, 2012, 07:02:13 pm »

I thought I would post an update after having the Benchmark DAC1 in the system for a few weeks - the outcome definitely isn't what I expected...

I ran into a few issues with the PC build that ultimately ended up being the some sort of interaction issue with the slot I had put the E-MU sound card into. I was having problems with the PC rebooting when, for example, watching a YouTube video. After a variable amount of time (anywhere from a few seconds to a few minutes), the PC would blue screen on me. I eventually traced it down to the sound card being the apparent culprit. So I returned the E-MU and ordered the Asus Xonar Essence STX, figuring it was bound to be more compatible with an Asus motherboard AND it would give me the chance to compare the Benchmark to the analog outputs on the card. I put the Xonar into the same slot the E-MU had been in and ran into the exact same issue, at which point a light went on and I decided to put the sound card into a different slot. Problem solved.

Once the problems were resolved, I spent time comparing the sound of the Benchmark DAC1 to the analog outputs on the Xonar. They definitely sounded a ~bit~ different, but ultimately I decided that the difference just wasn't worth the $800 extra for the Benchmark, at least in this system. So I have sent the Benchmark back to Audio Advisor and will stick with the analog outs on the Xonar, at least for now. IMO, the Xonar deserves the positive reviews it has received.

Hutchiii · « **Reply #42 on:** June 06, 2012, 08:02:19 pm »

Hey, very nice speakers

I was using the Essence STX, its basically the cheapest way to get audiophile grade sound on a computer.
Recently upgraded to the Essence One (DAC/Headphone amp) because I purchased HD800's

Been very happy with it, just thought I'd let ya know and put it on your radar if it wasn't already

Happy listening
- Hutchi

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Author Topic: High End Sound Card (or USB DAC) For New Build (Read 24923 times)