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[Shmoo]

Hello,

I have recently switched to MC17. So far I am really liking it, but I have run into one problem. I need to rip my CDs to two different formats (and temporarily need to do three). However, after I have completed ripping to the first format and then switched the encoding options, rather than re-starting the process it just bounces back to the "recently ripped" folder. Is there a way to resolve this?

Thank you!

[MrC]

How about ripping to lossless as your first format, and then using Convert to create other formats.

[Shmoo]

Hi MrC,

I was having some stability issues with MC17, but I seem to have them sorted out now. Yes, that solution does work, particularly since one of the formats I rip to is wav. It's nice to have an app that will convert without the original CD. :-) Knowing that this is an option, I will rip to wav, convert to flac and only convert to mp3 as necessary. That should keep all my various devices happy for now. Thank you very much for pointing out that that was an option.

Shmoo

[fitbrit]

May I ask why you rip to both wav and flac? Is it some sort of hardware compatibility issue? Both formats should play identically in MC.

[Shmoo]

Hi fitbrit,

Yes, it is a hardware compatibility issue. I plan on switching over to flac exclusively, but for now I am using an iPod classic (and therefore iTunes is along for the ride) as a file server plugged into the back of my receiver. It recognizes wav files without a problem, but the same can't be said for flacs. Once I decide which media server I'm going to purchase I should be able to do away with the wav files.

If you know of a way to transfer flac files to, and play flac files from, an iPod I would be most interested to hear about it.

[fitbrit]

Hi fitbrit,

Yes, it is a hardware compatibility issue. I plan on switching over to flac exclusively, but for now I am using an iPod classic (and therefore iTunes is along for the ride) as a file server plugged into the back of my receiver. It recognizes wav files without a problem, but the same can't be said for flacs. Once I decide which media server I'm going to purchase I should be able to do away with the wav files.

If you know of a way to transfer flac files to, and play flac files from, an iPod I would be most interested to hear about it.

No, I think yours is the only solution.

[Listener]

Hello,

I have recently switched to MC17. So far I am really liking it, but I have run into one problem. I need to rip my CDs to two different formats (and temporarily need to do three). However, after I have completed ripping to the first format and then switched the encoding options, rather than re-starting the process it just bounces back to the "recently ripped" folder. Is there a way to resolve this?

Thank you!

On the Tools/Options/CD, DVD & BD  dialog under rip complete options, you can uncheck the "show recently ripped playlist after ripping" option.  Then MC will not switch to the recently ripped view after you rip each CD.  Much nicer when you are ripping a series of CDs.

Bill


 

[Shmoo]

No, I think yours is the only solution. 

Hi fitbrit, I figured that would be your answer, but hope springs eternal! 

On the Tools/Options/CD, DVD & BD  dialog under rip complete options, you can uncheck the "show recently ripped playlist after ripping" option.

Hi Bill, thank you for pointing out that option. It has now been fixed!

I have a couple of new questions, if I may. I have a huge backlog (106 gigs to be exact) of ripped CDs (done in iTunes) to be tagged, renamed, moved, etc. Very time-consuming and tedious to put it mildly. iTunes is a real pain in the butt when it comes to handling wavs. MC 17, on the other hand, is proving to be a joy and all that I have to do is pop the CD in and it does exactly what I want in all aspects. Instead of doing all the manual work, I think I'd prefer to simply re-rip everything. I am noticing that it is taking approximately 25-30 minutes to rip each CD to either wav or flac. Is this a normal amount of time? I'm all for getting the job done properly, but I'm wondering whether this is normal or whether I have an unnecessary option selected.

Secondly, for some CDs I have decided to only re-rip to flac and not worry about the tagging in my old wav files. I was under the impression that you could upsample flacs to 24 bit(?)/192 kHz, but I'm not seeing any quality options under the encoding options (only the 1 to 8 scale for compression). Could someone tell me whether this is possible in MC 17 and, if so, how to enable it? Can I also do this when choosing to convert ripped wav files?

Thank you for your help with all my questions. 

[Listener]

I have a couple of new questions, if I may. I have a huge backlog (106 gigs to be exact) of ripped CDs (done in iTunes) to be tagged, renamed, moved, etc. Very time-consuming and tedious to put it mildly. iTunes is a real pain in the butt when it comes to handling wavs. MC 17, on the other hand, is proving to be a joy and all that I have to do is pop the CD in and it does exactly what I want in all aspects. Instead of doing all the manual work, I think I'd prefer to simply re-rip everything.

There are several possibilities for converting your files to Flacs instead of re-ripping your CDs.

1. If the files are WAVs, you might be able to convert them to AIFF or ALAC in iTunes.  iTunes might store tag values from its database in the converted files. Then use 2.

or

2. If the files are AIFF or ALAC format, you can convert them with MC or some other program, preserving the tags in your files.

or

3. You could convert the WAV files to Flac files using iTunes or another program.  Then use the Picard tagger to identify the files using audio fingerprints. (http://musicbrainz.org/doc/MusicBrainz_Picard)

or

4. If the WAV files have names that contain the same information as you want in tags, you can use MC to create tags from the folder and file names.  (Select a set of files and right-click on them.  Select "Library Tools" from the menu that appears and then choose "Fill properties from filename" from the Library tools menu.  The dialog that appears allows you to specify a pattern for the folder and file names.)

I am noticing that it is taking approximately 25-30 minutes to rip each CD to either wav or flac. Is this a normal amount of time? I'm all for getting the job done properly, but I'm wondering whether this is normal or whether I have an unnecessary option selected.

Describe your PC?  desktop or laptop?  CPU?  amount of RAM?  What brand and model of CD/DVD drive do you have?

It might be normal for a slow CD/DVD drive such as the ones in laptop PCs.  7-8 minutes might be more normal for an ordinary DVD drive in a recent desktop PC.

Other possibilities for the slow speed:
1) Windows is using programmed I/O rather than DMA to transfer data from the DVD drive.

2) Another program such as an anti-virus program or another media program such as Nero might be interfering with access to the DVD drive.  JimH keeps a list of weird problems and their solutions that you can check.

You may need to get a new internal DVD drive if you have a desktop PC or an external USB DVD drive if you have a laptop PC.

Secondly, for some CDs I have decided to only re-rip to flac and not worry about the tagging in my old wav files. I was under the impression that you could upsample flacs to 24 bit(?)/192 kHz, but I'm not seeing any quality options under the encoding options (only the 1 to 8 scale for compression). Could someone tell me whether this is possible in MC 17 and, if so, how to enable it? Can I also do this when choosing to convert ripped wav files?

There is no option.  No benefit.

[Shmoo]

There are several possibilities for converting your files to Flacs instead of re-ripping your CDs.

I will look into those options, thanks. iTunes does not tag wav files and only includes the track # and song name in the file name, so I'm guessing that option 3 might be the best bet if I decide to take that route. One thing with re-ripping using MC is that I can just pop the disc in the drive and work on something else.

Describe your PC?  desktop or laptop?  CPU?  amount of RAM?  What brand and model of CD/DVD drive do you have?

It might be normal for a slow CD/DVD drive such as the ones in laptop PCs.  7-8 minutes might be more normal for an ordinary DVD drive in a recent desktop PC.

My apologies, I should have been more specific. It is only with MC 17 that I am experiencing these rip times. Previously, it would take no more than 4-5 minutes per CD.

For the sake of detail, I am using a desktop system with the following:

Intel Core i7 860 2.8GHz S1156 Processor
Kingston HyperX 8GB (4x2) PC3-10666 DDR3 Memory
WD Black 500GB 7200RPM 32MB 3.5" SATA Hard Drive
WD Black 1TB 7200RPM 32MB 3.5" SATA Hard Drive
LG GH24NS50 24x DVDRW SATA Optical Drive
XFX Radeon HD5850 1GB DDR5 PCI-E Video Card
Asus Xonar Essence STX PCI-E Sound Card
Windows 7, 64 bit

I am wondering whether there is an MC-specific option that is selected that isn't necessary. The copy mode was "secure" by default, read speed is "max". Under "expert options", "analyze audio during ripping" and "encode concurrently with ripping" where also checked by default.

There is no option.  No benefit.

Interesting. I had been told that there would be, particularly with the digital player I have been looking at. In the product technical specs sheet it says that it, "focuses solely on playing high resolution
files and will support 16 and 24-bit word lengths and 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192kHz sampling frequencies." I'll have to enquire further about that.

I'm on quite the learning curve at the moment as I figure out a new audio system that will do everything that I want it to do! 

[Alex B]

Shmoo,

As you have noticed, iTunes doesn't tag WAV files (unlike MC17). If the ripped files sound fine you could simply convert the files to AIFF (uncompressed) or ALAC (Apple Lossless) with iTunes (assuming the iTunes database has the file data). The converted files would have tags that MC can read. Renaming and/or moving the tagged files with MC's Rename, Move, & Copy Files tool is easy and fast.

Personally, I would only re-rip the CDs that have audible ripping errors (clicks, pops, skips, etc). iTunes doesn't have a similar secure ripping system that MC has. MC may be able to create a better rip from a scratched CD.

Regarding the speed issue, the secure ripping mode in MC is slower than the burst mode that iTunes uses. This may explain the ripping speed difference, if iTunes is faster in your experience. You can disable secure ripping in MC's options, but I wouldn't recommend that. One thing that might help is trying a different optical drive. Various drive models can have vastly different ripping speeds. You can find more info here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=59038 . Unfortunately the thread does not provide info about the latest drive models, but if you have a PC with a standard drive bay you could try one of the current models. At least you would then have a spare drive.

Upsampling to a higher sample rate does not somehow magically improve the audio quality. The files would just occupy more disk space. You can apply upsampling during playback, but also that is not going to make the quality better, unless the used sound device performs badly at the original sample rate.

The set output bit depth is a different thing than sample rate. Normally you can always use the highest bit depth that your hardware supports regardless of the source files' bit depth. This does not do lots of unnecessary processing and when the internal DSP features are used it may provide additional dynamic range.

EDIT

Listener posted while I had my reply open (I had to something else before I was finished). Seems like our replies are quite similar...

[Alex B]

Interesting. I had been told that there would be, particularly with the digital player I have been looking at. In the product technical specs sheet it says that it, "focuses solely on playing high resolution
files and will support 16 and 24-bit word lengths and 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192kHz sampling frequencies." I'll have to enquire further about that.

Your Red Book (aka standard audio CD) files are not high resolution files. Resampling would just multiply existing audio data.

In general the benefits of the so called high resolution audio formats are greatly exaggerated. The Red Book format was designed to be an audibly transparent format that can reproduce any audio signal faithfully. You are never going to hear a similar improvement like when upgrading from SD video to HD video. Even the current HD video formats are nowhere "near perfect" like Red Book audio has been for almost 30 years.

[Listener]

I will look into those options, thanks. iTunes does not tag wav files and only includes the track # and song name in the file name, so I'm guessing that option 3 might be the best bet if I decide to take that route.

You missed the point about the first option.  iTunes does not put tag information into the WAV music file but that information is in the iTunes database.  If you get iTunes to convert a WAV file to AIFF or ALAC format, it might place the tag values in the converted file.  I don't use iTunes so I can't check this possibility out, but I think you would be wise to try it on one or a few WAV files.

> One thing with re-ripping using MC is that I can just pop the disc in the drive and work on something else.

You would be well advised to turn off the auto-rip option and inspect the tag values that MC retrieves before you let it start ripping.  It takes a few seconds to check and that protects you against having files named "unknown - unknown - 01.flac" (and no tags) when the online tag database doesn't have an entry for a CD.

>  It is only with MC 17 that I am experiencing these rip times. Previously, it would take no more than 4-5 minutes per CD.

Are you comparing MC 17's rip times to those of iTunes? or to an earlier version of MC?

iTunes was probably doing burst mode ripping: 1 pass at the drive maximum speed.  You are probably using secure mode in MC which does 2 passes to verify the accuracy of the data.  As Alex pointed out, iTunes can produce music files with very audible errors and it doesn't warn you.


> For the sake of detail, I am using a desktop system with the following:

Thanks for the details.  Your overall system is fast enough not to produce a bottleneck.  The DVD drive seems to be full height rather than a laptop drive.

> I am wondering whether there is an MC-specific option that is selected that isn't necessary.
> The copy mode was "secure" by default, read speed is "max". Under "expert options",
> "analyze audio during ripping" and "encode concurrently with ripping" where also checked by default.

Sounds OK to me. You could turn off "Analyze audio during ripping" but I doubt that it would make much difference.

Interesting. I had been told that there would be, particularly with the digital player I have been looking at. In the product technical specs sheet it says that it, "focuses solely on playing high resolution
files and will support 16 and 24-bit word lengths and 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192kHz sampling frequencies." I'll have to enquire further about that.

You are confusing two different capabilities.

- Once a CD is made, the audio data on the CD is limited by its 16 bit 44.1 KHz resolution. Upsampling that audio data can't recreate any extra information.

- You can buy high resolution downloads with 24 bit / 88.2 or 96 KHz audio data.  The product information you read was talking about that product's capability of playing such audio data at its full resolution.

I'm on quite the learning curve at the moment as I figure out a new audio system that will do everything that I want it to do! 

Before you get too concerned about audiophile issues, you should understand the nuts and bolts of computer audio.  This forum is a good place to ask questions.  Search for information in past threads and look at the Wiki.  (Link at the bottom of the page.)

Bill

(Alex said)
> Listener posted while I had my reply open (I had to something else before I was finished). Seems like our replies are quite similar...

That's because we are both right. 

[Shmoo]

I have been fiddling around a bit and also trying out your suggestions. A few updates...

It is definitely the secure copy mode that is slowing things down. I tried normal mode for one CD and it peaked at 37.3x whereas it never gets above 3x with secure mode. *sigh* I understand that secure mode would be a bit slower, but I find that amount of difference rather surprising. I looked through some threads here and did not find my drive listed anywhere (fast or slow).

You missed the point about the first option.  iTunes does not put tag information into the WAV music file but that information is in the iTunes database.  If you get iTunes to convert a WAV file to AIFF or ALAC format, it might place the tag values in the converted file.  I don't use iTunes so I can't check this possibility out, but I think you would be wise to try it on one or a few WAV files.

No, I didn't miss the point.  iTunes will not place the tag values in the converted file. Trying to retrieve the information from the database does not work either.

You would be well advised to turn off the auto-rip option and inspect the tag values that MC retrieves before you let it start ripping.  It takes a few seconds to check and that protects you against having files named "unknown - unknown - 01.flac" (and no tags) when the online tag database doesn't have an entry for a CD.

Er, I didn't literally mean that I popped in the disc and didn't check the information before ripping a CD, and the auto-ripping option has been turned off. What I meant was that once the tags had been confirmed and I had started the rip process I could work on something else for the next 25-30 minutes.

Are you comparing MC 17's rip times to those of iTunes? or to an earlier version of MC?

I have not used MC previously so I am comparing the times to iTunes and various other apps that I have used previously. As I mentioned above, the drastic difference is a result of secure mode and seems to be out of proportion for the amount of extra checking being done. I would prefer the added security of a second pass to eliminate errors and would happily make some time allowances for such, but something more seems to be going on here with MC 17.

The DVD drive seems to be full height rather than a laptop drive.

Yes, it is a full height drive. And, yes, I've already turned off the "analyze audio during ripping". 

Your Red Book (aka standard audio CD) files are not high resolution files. Resampling would just multiply existing audio data.

You are confusing two different capabilities.

- Once a CD is made, the audio data on the CD is limited by its 16 bit 44.1 KHz resolution. Upsampling that audio data can't recreate any extra information.

- You can buy high resolution downloads with 24 bit / 88.2 or 96 KHz audio data.  The product information you read was talking about that product's capability of playing such audio data at its full resolution.

That is what I had thought, but several people tried to claim otherwise. And they weren't even salespeople! What I am really trying to do is find a better sound quality format than CDs, which only contain a fraction of the source quality. I was beginning to think you were saying that the only way to take advantage of the 192 kHz sampling capability was to have the original studio recordings. I could see how higher resolution files would be of benefit under specific circumstances.

Could you recommend any sites that offer these higher resolution downloads? Just in case it's pertinent, I will say that I live in Canada. The land where we don't have access to such sites as Hulu and Pandora. 

Before you get too concerned about audiophile issues, you should understand the nuts and bolts of computer audio.  This forum is a good place to ask questions.  Search for information in past threads and look at the Wiki.  (Link at the bottom of the page.)

As I mentioned, I am on a learning curve at the moment. I am an audiophile and have a fairly high-end system. She has served me well for years but it is time to update. I am also quite familiar with technology. It's the marrying of the two that is currently giving me fits! Well, that and determining a system configuration that will do what I want it to do. From the sounds of it, it was very lucky that I did not decide to do this even two years ago as I would have been destined for extreme frustration.

In the meantime, I am enjoying figuring out computer audio and appreciate your help, Bill and Alex. I've gone through the wiki and will continue to look through the forum. There have been a number of interesting threads and everyone here seems to be very helpful! And patient. 

[Listener]

It is definitely the secure copy mode that is slowing things down. I tried normal mode for one CD and it peaked at 37.3x whereas it never gets above 3x with secure mode. *sigh* I understand that secure mode would be a bit slower, but I find that amount of difference rather surprising. I looked through some threads here and did not find my drive listed anywhere (fast or slow).

Your drive may have a read cache for CD reading operations.  (This feature is separate from the cache used for writing CDs or for reading/writing DVDs.

You might also look at the log files produced by MC's secure ripping.  If the 2 passes produce results that don't match, MC will do more reads to get a consensus result.  The log file will note areas where extra reads were required.

I also mentioned the possibility that Windows had changed the transfer mode from DMA to programmed I/O.  Look in Device Manager to see what mode is being used.

JRiver may have to do extra work to flush the cache before the second read and that may slow down the operation.

I picked a DVD drive that did not have a CD read cache. Samsung SH- 222 and 223 series drives have worked well for me as has an earlier model.  Under $ 20 at newegg.com.

If you are going to be re-ripping a lot of CDs and really want to minimize the time spent, you might consider buying dBpoweramp.  It has a database of checksum-like information for CD tracks (AccurateRip).  It can do one pass at burst speed and check the result against its database.  If the results match, no second pass is needed. If no information for the CD is present for a CD, dBpoweramp uses multiple passes as MC does.


> I would prefer the added security of a second pass to eliminate errors
> and would happily make some time allowances for such,
> but something more seems to be going on here with MC 17.

I've ripped nearly 3000 CDs by now on 4 different PCs with 5 different drives.  I've done comparisons of MC, EAC and dBpoweramp.  The secure ripping featuires in them work.  One pass ripping can be faster if the checksum data is in the database.  For 2 pass secure ripping, they are about the same speed.


> Could you recommend any sites that offer these higher resolution downloads? Just in case it's pertinent, I will say that I live in Canada.

HDTracks.com
Linn.com
eClassical.com

Ask on Computeraudiophile.com for more info.

>  I am an audiophile and have a fairly high-end system. She has served me well for years but it is time to update.
> I am also quite familiar with technology. It's the marrying of the two that is currently giving me fits!
> Well, that and determining a system configuration that will do what I want it to do.

Computer audio is more about learning new things than about buying stuff.

I've been an audiophile since the mid-late 60s and a scientist turned computer programmer since ~68.

>  From the sounds of it, it was very lucky that I did not decide to do this even two years ago
> as I would have been destined for extreme frustration.

I started on computer audio about 6+ years ago when hard drives got big enough and cheap enough to hold my music in Flac format.  It wasn't any harder then.   In some ways, it was easier since there were fewer people giving bad advice.

> I have been fiddling around a bit and also trying out your suggestions.

Keep fiddling.  You can learn from suggestions even when they don't solve the current problem.

Bill








[/quote]

[Shmoo]

I picked a DVD drive that did not have a CD read cache. Samsung SH- 222 and 223 series drives have worked well for me as has an earlier model.  Under $ 20 at newegg.com.

Thank you for the model recommendation. I have found it available locally for a similar price so I will keep it as a backup option.

If you are going to be re-ripping a lot of CDs and really want to minimize the time spent, you might consider buying dBpoweramp.  It has a database of checksum-like information for CD tracks (AccurateRip).  It can do one pass at burst speed and check the result against its database.  If the results match, no second pass is needed. If no information for the CD is present for a CD, dBpoweramp uses multiple passes as MC does.

I am checking their site out now and it does seem like a viable option and reasonably priced.

Computer audio is more about learning new things than about buying stuff.

Really? I would have never guessed that!  Considering that my receiver is now 21 years old, and I'm using an iPod for my files, I really do think I should consider an upgrade. Perhaps I should clarify that I am not looking for a computer audio system. I am looking for an audio system that handles digital files. I will be using my computer solely to rip the CDs and as a desktop interface to control playback. I do not wish to stream the files, nor play them (when not looking for background music while working) on my computer.

I started on computer audio about 6+ years ago when hard drives got big enough and cheap enough to hold my music in Flac format.  It wasn't any harder then.   In some ways, it was easier since there were fewer people giving bad advice.

I've been using computer audio for about 13 years now, but it has always been separate from my main audio system. My comment regarding the timing isn't related to hard drive size or price. Rather, it is my understanding that dedicated standalone digital audio file components, particularly ones that support flacs are relatively new. The fact that I don't want to stream, but also want to be able to control playback wirelessly through my computer, as well as be able to control it from in front of my system is what limits the options somewhat.

Keep fiddling.  You can learn from suggestions even when they don't solve the current problem.

Yes, indeed, that is often the case. It's an advantage to be naturally curious. Thank you again for your help, Bill.