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How does Randomize work on smartlists?

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Matt:
This topic is an oldie, but a goodie.

The thread Justin linked to is still relevant today:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=20600.msg151784#msg151784

Random data often has things that look like patterns.  That's how random works.

And because users don't really want a true random shuffle, Media Center spreads the same artist around after a shuffle to make it less common to get tracks by the same artist next to each other.  This makes the data less random in a mathematical sense, but more random in a common-sense way.

Daydream:

--- Quote from: gvanbrunt on August 19, 2012, 06:48:43 pm ---I often notice some songs it plays much more often than others.
--- End quote ---

This is more interesting. I tend to agree in some visceral, psychosomatic, totally non-scientific way.
Case in hand I have a smartlist with my top tracks - 4 and 5 stars, handy at all times. Recently I just further tweaked it putting a year limit and BPM constraints on it. The resultant list had an unexpected high count of tracks with zero no. of plays. Things like these would get anyone startin' wondering - what happen with those tracks before the constrains, why where they never played in the initial, bigger smartlist? But to prove anything is rather difficult. There are many things that could affect the findings; if I ever skipped a track before it was accounted as "played", the whole thing is off its statistical rails.

But I have a simpler question. What gets randomized on a shuffle? One variable (say track name) + added logic to lower probability of same artist OR more variables?

rick.ca:

--- Quote from: Matt on August 20, 2012, 10:26:53 am ---And because users don't really want a true random shuffle...
--- End quote ---

Part of what is being questioned is not the order of the list but the content. If Shuffle isn't random, then it doesn't provide a reliable means for selection by shuffling a selection and then taken the first N items. That's a technique commonly used in smartlists, but now I wonder if internal selection tools (limit, mix, etc.) use the same method. If so, this might explain results that are not only not random, but contrary to any common-sense notion of a 'random' selection. Things like...


--- Quote from: gvanbrunt on August 19, 2012, 06:48:43 pm ---One other pattern I notice. I often notice some songs it plays much more often than others. On 3 or 4 plays through a smartlist after refreshing it brings up some songs over and over. Others it never plays at all...
--- End quote ---

The quasi-random shuffle might be fine for setting the final order of a list, but a truly random function should be used for all other purposes.

gvanbrunt:

--- Quote from: Daydream on August 20, 2012, 03:07:57 pm ---This is more interesting. I tend to agree in some visceral, psychosomatic, totally non-scientific way.
Case in hand I have a smartlist with my top tracks - 4 and 5 stars, handy at all times. Recently I just further tweaked it putting a year limit and BPM constraints on it. The resultant list had an unexpected high count of tracks with zero no. of plays. Things like these would get anyone startin' wondering - what happen with those tracks before the constrains, why where they never played in the initial, bigger smartlist? But to prove anything is rather difficult. There are many things that could affect the findings; if I ever skipped a track before it was accounted as "played", the whole thing is off its statistical rails.

But I have a simpler question. What gets randomized on a shuffle? One variable (say track name) + added logic to lower probability of same artist OR more variables?

--- End quote ---

Interesting. The lists I have an issue with are based on 4 and 5 stars as well. I wonder if that has anything to do with the issue.

Matt:
Is randomize applied last, or before the smartlist is processed?

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