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[Ancient_Audiophile]

[I couldn't find a definitive thread on this, and some recent posts indicated that the details may have changed recently, so]

1) What exactly does import (either manually or Auto-Import) do or modify that is perceivable from outside of Media Center ?

In other words, Media Center, like most similar programs, creates its own database, which is good.

So, what does it do outside the database ?

At a minimum, I noticed that it will write .xml and .jpg files outside of the JRiver folders, in this case in the video files' folders.

Does it ever modify any existing files, such as by writing tags into files ?

2) Is there any way to reverse things that have been done by Auto-import or manual import (both in terms of MC's database and in terms of external files) ?

By the way, I am very troubled by the fact that there is no reply to:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=70711.0

( Is there some sort of assumption that if the user didn't bump the topic, he no longer cares ? )

[MrC]

Import will, depending upon settings configured in MC:

  - add audio analysis tags to audio files
  - create sidecar files for files that don't support tags
  - download and store cover art in either/or both the cover art location or inside media files

You can remove items from MC's database anytime (this is your Undo).

There is no Undo for media file updates (cover art, tags, date modified time-stamp updates).

Sometimes threads are missed, or go unanswered, due to people being busy, or sometimes they are difficult to answer.  A gentle bump helps bring attention to a thread that was inadvertently overlooked.  You shouldn't be troubled by these oversights.

[rjm]

Many years ago when I started using MC and before I trusted it I worried about the same issue.

Until you build confidence you can turn off all changes to your media files by clearing Tools\Options\General\Update tags when file info changes.

Or you can turn off specific things you do not want changed via:

Tools\Options\File Location\Cover Art\Also store image in the file's tag
Tools\Options\Library & Folders\Configure Auto Import\Analyse audio
Tools\Options\Library & Folders\Configure Auto Import\Write file tags
Tools\Options\General\Store tags in external sidecar files

[Ancient_Audiophile]

Many years ago when I started using MC and before I trusted it I worried about the same issue.

Until you build confidence you can turn off all changes to your media files by clearing Tools\Options\General\Update tags when file info changes.

It's not so much a lack of confidence in Media Center.

It's a lack of confidence in the databases.

For example, when I rip a CD, and then I look through the various online databases, I often need to hand modify the information, because none of them have it correct.   Sometimes that is because of different releases of the CD with different bonus tracks, and often the specific release is just missing, even though other releases of the album are there.

There is a similar situation with DVRs.   No matter how good the DVR, you still have to check your upcoming timer schedule, because the "TV Listings" (often by Tribune Corp) are sometimes wrong.   A specific example - it keeps recording the Sydney episode of No Reservations, because the database is missing the episode date ONLY for that episode.

[Ancient_Audiophile]

You can remove items from MC's database anytime (this is your Undo).

I am not understanding this (Undo is inoperative at the moment).

Is there a way to clear the whole database and start over ?

I read some threads and it seems that even if you "clear" the database, it remembers what you previously imported for various purposes.   (And I understand that all these things are there because they serve useful purposes.)

So, do I need to uninstall entirely to 100% clear the database ?

[MrC]

The "database" you routinely use is only one of several contained in an MC "Library".  You can do a File > Library > Clear Library to remove everything and start afresh.

To delete items, select them and hit Delete.  This is what I meant by my comment about how to remove items.  You can select other databases, and remove items from those too, but this is more than you probably care about now.  If you want more info about the additional databases, and how MC maintains a list of items you've previously removed, bump the thread.

[Ancient_Audiophile]

The "database" you routinely use is only one of several contained in an MC "Library".  You can do a File > Library > Clear Library to remove everything and start afresh.

Again, going back to the first sentence of the thread - What does Import do or modify that is perceivable from outside of Media Center ?   Howe does "Clear Library" affect those things ?

[MrC]

Clear Library doesn't affect external media files.

[Ancient_Audiophile]

Okay, I am testing Media Center to make sure it will be right for my particular needs.

This sequence of events does not inspire confidence, here is what happened:

1 - Run Install

2 - Choose "Custom" (the software now has data that I am not a Noob)

3 - Select all Audio File Types, Select NO Pictures, and Select NO Video Types

4 - Install finishes and I start MC for the first time.

5 - By pure coincidence, I am looking at MC during the countdown and click to STOP the countdown. (If I had been distracted by a family member, I would never have even noticed the countdown.  But I did happen to stop it.)

6 - I click on the bottom selection (something like "No Auto Import") in the resulting dialog box.

At this point, MC knows the following from the user interaction:

* - I am not a Noob
* - I only want MC to do audio (no pictures and no video)
* - I do not want MC to do Auto-Import

7 - I close MC and re-open it

8 - MC Auto-Imports Pictures (but finds no audio files)

9 - MC Auto-Imports Video, writing various .XML and .JPEG files to the my hard drive

10 - MC writes a library backup

After I discover all this (and post about it):

11 - I do a Clear Library

12 - Everything is still on my hard drive with the sole exception of the Roaming/JRiver files (the Library).

13 - I uninstall Media Center, ticking the boxes indicating that I want it to clear everything.  Uninstall finishes, and:

14 - Library backup files are still there on the hard drive

15 - .XML files and .JPEG files are still there in the folders of Video file, even though I told setup that I did NOT want Media Center to be handling video files.

16 - ( A lot of video related files in Internet Explorer, but since they will go away by clearing IE cache, that's not too bad. )

JRiver posted a thread entitled "Old-Fashioned Manners" and I think a lot of the above is relevant:

* - Any time you uninstall a program, and it leaves files that it created, it is like having a house guest, and the guest leaves various trash scattered around after he leaves.

* - Asking the user which types of files he wants to associate with MC, and then ignoring the response, is rude.

* - Asking the user whether to Auto-Import, hearing the user say "NO", and then doing it anyway next time the program is run, is rude.

One would think that this is the sort of thing that is of importance to new users, and not of importance to old hands.   But, I have found dozens of posts by MC Beta Team members complaining about various of the above issues, and never found any posts by the MC Beta Team supporting any of the above.

If you look on the web for complaints about software, the issues above are top of the list, and form a majority of complaints about Media Center outside of this Forum.

What is sad is that Media Center already has input from the user that would allow it to do pre-determined Automatic setup for the Noobs, and allow other users to select what they want.    As soon as the user chooses "Custom", they are not a Noob, and all the Automatic-Whether-You-Like-It-Or-Not importing can be stopped in favor of Dialog Boxes asking the user what they really want.

Outside of the manners issue, isn't better reviews around the Web an important goal ?

[glynor]

At this point, MC knows the following from the user interaction:

* - I am not a Noob
* - I only want MC to do audio (no pictures and no video)
* - I do not want MC to do Auto-Import

I agree with you generally about the automatic auto-import on the countdown timer.  This was done specifically because lots of novice users had problems getting media imported.  So, launching with a blank library causes MC to scan "common" (user directories) locations for media, but gives the countdown timer to give you a chance to cancel it.

I find it annoying too, though it really only ever happens once, until I restore my real library (or you actually import at least a single file).

However, while I see where you're coming from on that, I'd dispute that they really "know" the things you suggest above from the choices you made, and assuming thus, would cause an equal or greater amount of trouble for other users.

For example:  I do not enable file type associations for ANY image file types, or ANY video file types either, and I enable audio file type association for all types except WAV.  However, that does not mean I don't want to use MC for Image or Video playback or management!  Those aren't the same questions.  I don't want MC to open when I double click a MKV file in Windows Explorer (I want it to use Media Player Classic), simply because when I open a file that way, I just want a simple "quick viewer" in a window.  Same goes for WAV (which is how my voicemails at work come in as email attachments), and image files.  If I'm in Windows Explorer, and I double click a file, I usually just want a "quick viewer".  In the past, I didn't even associate the other audio file types with MC, for the same reason.  In practice, over time, I found that I never actually wanted to "quick view" these other types of audio files (usually music), and so I do now allow it to associate those specific files, but nothing else.

But that does not mean I don't want to use MC for video playback.  MC is my primary video playback application, and I use it for all my image file management as well.

File Type Associations are just not the same thing.

Likewise, I don't think selecting custom install mode means you are an experienced user, automatically.  There are many reasons you might need to use custom install mode (installing to a separate disk in a system with a small, limited SSD boot volume, for example).  Even my Dad, who is no computer whiz, will often use the "Custom" modes when installing something here or there, mainly out of curiosity.  He learned long ago that if you choose that choice, it gives you more information.  He usually doesn't understand most of the choices presented, and just chooses the defaults, but he'll still pick that mode and look through what it says (usually reading them to me one at a time in painstaking fashion).

And, finally, it is conceivable that a user might want to cancel the auto-import on the first run in order to perform some other task, but then want it to run later.  I admit, this is much more tenuous, and I'd generally agree with you.  If you cancel it once, it shouldn't ever do that again.

[glynor]

The same rule applies with the uninstall, as well.

If MC did remove the sidecar XML files and cover art files when you did a full uninstall, the results could be disastrous.  You're assuming that the system knew, somehow, that you were really wanting to remove all traces of the application, and all potentially related data files, from the system.  In other words, I'm uninstalling this intending to never use it again.  That's a dangerous assumption.

The Sidecar XML files are the equivalent of in-file tags for many video file types.  They are a metadata backup mechanism, and a mechanism of exchanging information with other applications.  I, and many other users, use them for this purpose.

Imagine a user who installs MC and uses it for many months or years, and then needs to uninstall it completely for a reason other than "I don't want to use this anymore".  Maybe they're moving to a new PC, for example.  Or they just got their Library in such a screwed up state that they wanted to "start over fresh" and (not knowing you can clear the library from within the application) they use uninstall as a convenient "get it back to original state" mechanism.  This is common user behavior.

If MC cleared not only the active library and settings, but also scoured your hard drives and obliterated metadata files that might have valuable information, that would be utterly disastrous and would be "bad behavior" in my opinion.  Imagine if uninstalling Microsoft Excel caused Excel to delete all of your XLS documents!  In your case, you didn't want them and they were all auto-created with information you don't need.  For many, many other users, that is the precise mechanism they may be planning to use to rebuild their library once they reinstall and get back to a "like new" state!  Even if you are never going to use MC again, that metadata is in XML, easily parsed and can be used with other applications with minor massaging.  It is the precise mechanism you can use to port your metadata to some other management system if you decide to move onto something else.

Likewise, deleting the Library Backups would be terrible.  What if the "Remove Library" checkbox was selected accidentally, and the user just intended to uninstall it to roll back to an earlier version (not necessary, but people do this because many other applications require it)?  The backups aren't large, aren't hidden (they default to your regular "My Documents" folder, in a clearly-labeled subfolder).  It seems like bad behavior to remove them carte blanche without being absolutely sure that the user intended to never, ever need them again (and this is impossible to determine with accuracy because users don't read dialog boxes carefully and click "next, next, next" a lot).

Deleting things is dangerous, especially when you can't know for sure the user's intent.  It is better to err on the side of caution, which is what they do here.

Again, I agree with you on the auto-import countdown timer thing.  It would be best if MC asked, but in their user testing, this generated less confusion and fewer complaints (it wasn't always this way) for brand-new users.  I think it could be tweaked, but on the rest of your conclusions, I don't agree at all.

[kensn]

I for one would also like to see the Auto Import not start automatically, a nice popup asking if you would like to import files would be nice, with a default set of common locations that are able to be unchecked, and a browse type function to add locations.

I think this would be a bit more intuitive and give the user a better perspective of what is going on.

A second option would be to scan the locations first and then ask if an import on those locations that contain media are wanted, again with check boxes to confirm or deny.  

My $.02

Ken

[glynor]

I for one would also like to see the Auto Import not start automatically, a nice popup asking if you would like to import files would be nice, with a default set of common locations that are able to be unchecked, and a browse type function to add locations.

I agree.  That would be better.

The problem with the countdown timer is that you can miss it if you:

1. Wander off.
2. Are in the middle of doing something else with the application.

Item #2 in particular happens to me a lot.  When MC installs, it'll ask if you want to register it.  I've had it finish the countdown timer and start the auto-import while I was busy fiddling with the registration dialogs before.  Some times, you can even be stuck in a modal dialog in another part of MC and the timer keeps counting down.

It wouldn't be a big deal except that Auto-Import does cause things (like the creation of those cover art and Sidecar.xml files, for one) that happen "outside of MC".  Once it runs, there is no easy "undo".

The timer is bad.

EDIT:  And, I should add, it seems to have cost you a potential customer in this case.  It was very nice that he took the time to come and report why he was irritated by the process.  Even if I don't agree with all of his conclusions about what it should have done, that doesn't mean that his points shouldn't be considered at all.  Where there is one person that has the problem and comes and complains, there are probably quite a few other silent angry people who just abandoned it and never came back.

[Ancient_Audiophile]

Glynor -

Without the usual Forum quoting and so forth.

You are disputing that MC "knows" certain things (whether you want it to do video files, etc) and then citing your different use, all of which is valid.

Except that the whole point of asking about File Associations to begin with, is based on everyone's experience with 1990s programs that would say:

Since you're installing Fred Audio Player, you obviously must want Fred Audio Player to take over all audio functions in your life !

Every program did not ask first, and then people generally became angry at all these programs taking over your PC without asking first.

Then Winamp and foobar2000 and Media Jukebox and all the other programs started to ask first before taking over your file associations.

Furthermore, if you don't want Media Center to do file associations, but you do want it to import certain types of files, then again, if we are already in the Non-Noob track, i.e. "custom install", then just ask in the Custom Install:

What types of files do you want Media Center to import when it starts for the first time?:

with video, audio, and pictures as three choices, with the same sort of selection as File Associations, namely that you can choose none, all or any combination.  About one-tenth the amount of code currently being used for the countdown stuff.

Concerning uninstall:

You claim that it would be dangerous for Media Center to delete files.   But it would be simple, and proper "manners" for Media Center to make a log of every file it creates, and then delete those exact files when it uninstalls.

Again, it already asks you if you are doing a temporary uninstall (so leave data), or a permanent uninstall (so delete everything it created).