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[felix2]

Media Center is now version 18. And JR must know that their wonderful AV app is packed with so much 'stuff' it has become hard to use. It is hard for many beginners who just want to get it going but confused by so many features and mysterious unexplained things. And then for those who have used MC for a while and is knowledgeable, but now want to customize things, to expand usage to a network of gears, to get all the media coordinated, to play all kinds of AV media files but with specific technical performance, etc. They bumped into highly technical stuff, advanced features, expression programming, mysteries why MC will do this but won't do that. This means steep curve to learn the advanced feature, time spent to figure out things and all kinds of strange problems. For these, we have only a wiki to turn to.

[As an example, I use MC to play hi-bit (up to 24/192) audio files in Flac format to my commercial grade sound card, as well as to a high grade DAC connected to the USB port. When I use WASAPI mode output, it plays to the sound card but has 'pops' to the DAC. When I use WASAPI Event mode, the reverse happen. What the hell is going on? Nobody knows. Yet another mystery. Hearing 'pops' from expensive hi-bit audio purchased for their extreme fidelity destroys the whole experience of using MC in the first place. I want to know, in exact technical terms, what these two modes do, what are the performance specifications within the Windows audio subsystem and output interfaces. What are the limitations. Is that some kind of top secret?]

If JR wants to grow their big sophisticated program further they should initiate a User Manual project. They don't have to actually do it. Just ask independent authors, and there are many, who will write the manual but with JR support by providing knowledge. The manual can either be published as a book for sale, or offered free or part of software buy in a PDF file. Hell, charge for it the next time I do an upgrade.

[MrHaugen]

This is the exact reason why it would be impossible to write a user manual for MC. It's to complex. And even though someone was able to get it all down on "paper", many parts of it would be outdated really soon because of JRiver fast development with many small additions and changes. We have a Wiki with the most basic of questions and answers, as well as some more complex stuff. As people have time, more will be added to this wiki. Let's just hope that it will also get updated as JRiver make changes.

It might have been possible for JRiver to hire two persons for a few years, to devote time only to learning the program and writing a good guide. But would you not rather have those resources spent on improving the actual program? You'll still be able to get very good and educated answers and hand holding on most topics in this forum.

Don't get me wrong. I also think MC is very complex. It's a steep learning curve for new users. But I think we're best served by adding good features like Red October and providing better and simpler defaults for users. Such things are under constant development, and new ideas poor in daily. The future looks brighter.

[JustinChase]

It's been suggested many times over the years, but there are some things that make this more difficult than it seems at first.

1. MC is constantly changing.  I think they average 4 builds/week in the beta forums, and probably 4/month in the public forums.  Even with only 5-7 changes per build, you're looking at 100+ changes per month, or over 1000 per year.  Many are bug fixes, but there are lots of enhancements or changes, sometimes even reversing previous changes/improvements for various reasons.

2. No one knows all the intricacies better than the developers, but there are only 4 full time (I think) developers, and if they were documenting all the changes, they wouldn't be making the changes, and we'd all suffer.

3. The wiki attempts to do the very thing you're requesting, and is mostly user contributed/updated, so it doesn't have all the stuff that MC can do, partly because of the reasons above.

4. Everyone uses MC differently.  Some users have LOTS of highly customized views, often with complex expressions driving them, for a very specific purpose, which isn't normally easily transferable to another user need.  Some are content with the basic functionality.  As a person uses MC more and more, they tend to learn more and more, and adapt their system to their specific needs and wants. 

It's very difficult to give a 'this is how you do it' type explanation, since everyone comes with different media storage setups, different needs, and a WIDE range of computer knowledge and experience. What seems absurdly easy to one user is still over the head of another user.

5. Part of the joy of MC, for me, is visiting the forums and seeing what others are requesting, and the resolutions suggested by others.  I learn a lot by coming here and just poking around.

I realize that I'm in the minority in this, and that most users won't have the time or interest to do this, and a basic 'how to do it' manual would be welcome/useful, but those that could write it typically prefer to help in specific requests or situations vs. taking weeks/months to write a manual that will be outdated by the time they finish.  Many contribute to the wiki (and we appreciate it!), and I think that's the best we can reasonably expect for the foreseeable future, for good or bad.

Also, I'm not convinced that this is the driving force behind the team at JRiver...

If JR wants to grow their big sophisticated program further...

I'm sure they would like to see it continue to grow, and Jim often posts about new levels of success they reach, but I think they do it more because they love it, and this community, than an overwhelming desire for growth.  I think they'd rather spend time helping the nice folks here, than writing manuals, and I'm glad they do

[felix2]

Thanks for those who put in their 2 cents.

Of course MC is already too complex for many people otherwise I won't bother to post this request. I guess it boils down to what is JR's business policy going forward. If the policy is just keep adding more and ever more features, with ever more complexity (and more problems and wiki activities) then in top guy in charge must ask how long this can go on before it becomes a major user problem. Before sales will take a major hit.

Must I point out that many software companies who tried this approach, which manifest as endless 'beta' releases - in effect asking users to debug and fix problems - has always resulted in a backlash.

Ever more features at the expense of user problems is not sound. There should be a balance between rapid engineering change, ease of use, customer satisfaction (i.e. relatively problem free). As an example, Adobe team of user interface, feature control, maintainability and QA people is about 5 times the size of code developers in many of their products. Adobe is organized this way for good business and technical reasons.

[crisnee]

They are, unless they've changed recently, anti-manual around here. I offered to produce an in depth manual several years ago, gratis. It was to have been an ebook and would have been updateable as it contained links; new links could have been added for new Wiki topics for instance. I actually produced a working version, but JRiver was so against anything but the Wiki, that they put obstacles in my way wherever possible and actually locked topics that mentioned the manual, so that I finally gave up.

Chris

[rjm]

I have very little respect for Adobe development practices. Take Adobe Reader for example. It is huge and slow for the modest functionality it provides. They are constantly patching security flaws and to this day have not figured out how to do an update without rebooting. JRiver is several orders of magnitude more productive and competent than Adobe.

[mykillk]

You're not the only one. Adobe has been developing Flash for how many years now? And it still crashes multiple times every day without fail even after like a thousand updates. It's incredibly inefficient too, absolutely destroys battery life on mobile devices.

[MrHaugen]

Of course MC is already too complex for many people otherwise I won't bother to post this request. I guess it boils down to what is JR's business policy going forward. If the policy is just keep adding more and ever more features, with ever more complexity (and more problems and wiki activities) then in top guy in charge must ask how long this can go on before it becomes a major user problem. Before sales will take a major hit.

This is not very likely to occur when JRiver also focuses on making the software more user friendly as time passes. Yes, they add features all the time, but they focus on simplifying things as well. A few examples:
- Red October (automatic setup of standard and high quality video playback)
- Adding help features for new users in Theater Vie.
- Improving default views to meet "market standards"
- Improving caption for default installations

This is a few examples of things done to help new users as well as the more experienced users. As you say, it's about balancing between feature development, simplifying things as well as helping users. I think JRiver and the forums here are doing a good job with that. MC is a very special application. It will probably never be for everyone. You'll have iTunes for such.

Must I point out that many software companies who tried this approach, which manifest as endless 'beta' releases - in effect asking users to debug and fix problems - has always resulted in a backlash.

JRiver have a dedicated group of normal users, that are testing beta versions. Other users get access to Stable builds, and a subset of more frequent builds. Default setup of MC deploys only the stable updates of the application. No betas. So, I'm not sure where you get this from. JRiver's development and publishing is something totally different than most other companies. And most of the users love the fact that it's updated so often and fast. If you don't like that, you're welcome to only change to every major version if you like. I just think it's wrong to blame JRiver for the possibilities they give us. The users.

If you do not like the support you've been given, then you've probably just asked the wrong questions. Most problems or bugs with the application are looked into. And if it's worth the time and effort, you can be pretty sure they will try to fix it. Almost all setup questions are also answered by the helpful users or staff. So, I'm not sure what's the real issue here?

[marko]

They are constantly patching security flaws and to this day have not figured out how to do an update without rebooting.

touché. It is only for this precise reason that this has been sitting in my system tray for over a week now...



The manual thing is hard, I know, but in its absence, users need to either use the resources available, ie. this forum and the wiki, work it out for themselves, or walk away. I feel fortunate that I got in on the ground floor with version 9, the very first Media Center (as opposed to Jukebox) so my experience with the software has grown along with it. It's a solid program though, well worth the learning curve, in my, very humble, opinion, of course.

-marko

[JimH]

[As an example, I use MC to play hi-bit (up to 24/192) audio files in Flac format to my commercial grade sound card, as well as to a high grade DAC connected to the USB port. When I use WASAPI mode output, it plays to the sound card but has 'pops' to the DAC. When I use WASAPI Event mode, the reverse happen. What the hell is going on? Nobody knows. Yet another mystery. Hearing 'pops' from expensive hi-bit audio purchased for their extreme fidelity destroys the whole experience of using MC in the first place. I want to know, in exact technical terms, what these two modes do, what are the performance specifications within the Windows audio subsystem and output interfaces. What are the limitations. Is that some kind of top secret?]

A search on the forum or a search at Google usually works for something like this.  WASAPI is part of Windows and you should find plenty of reading on the Internet.

[BillyBoyBlue]

I can't resist NOT commenting. To say MC is oh, "too complex" we can't be bothered to write a manual because laughable, it keeps changing, is just a cop-out. It screams out for one. It is ludicrous to use that excuse and is like saying applications way far more complex and popular like Adobe's Photoshop or After Effects to name just two, shouldn't have a comprehensive online help system or the flourishing after market of literally hundreds of books from third party authors.

I've been a beta tester for IBM, Adobe, Microsoft and others, they would no more offer a application without explaining in detail how to use ALL it's features (and give detailed examples) than GM or Ford would put a automobile on the show room floor without a comprehensive manual in the glove box in spite how cars are to be operated is common knowledge and they've been around over 100 years. Come on, be real!

I agree with others. Nowhere does a lack of a manual hurt more than the beginner first coming to MC. Therefore beginners rarely use MC beyond the mere basics and only then after stumbling through trial and error to get just that far leaving only hard core long time users that have been around for years and multiple versions of MC to benefit from the many features many don't even know exist and most don't use because they don't know how to. You can't justify that saying spend a dozen or more hours try to find answers hunting through not that well written or organized WIKI pages and repeating a similar process everytime you got a question.

[chrisjj]

Somebody should write a User Manual for MC

First, somebody should write a reference manual for MC.

The first to benefit would be the Devs. A proper record of what each command is intended to do would made it a easier for them to spot when one doesn't do that. Resulting in fewer bugs in released versions.

[locust]

I think while a basic manual would be great for new users but a comprehensive manual would be impossible unless some third party done it gratis and was constantly updating it.

As for manuals for stuff like Microsoft and Adobe products I find their manuals useless and the online help more appalling. When I need to do something with these products I end up searching many different forums.. So I'm glad J River spend no time on a manual.

I agree though the wiki could be better. It would be nice though it in the options window when hovering over an ambiguous or difficult to understand setting that a little tooltip could popup providing a basic explanation, of the setting - it would help when coming to the forums to ask a more direct question about the setup you want.

J River makes a great product, I will always upgrade. And if I recall correctly Matt said in one of his posts that he uses a pretty vanilla setup. So take into account he developed the expression engine in mc - it isn't his job to write a guide on every possible thing you can do with expressions. Talking about limitations of complicated features in a manual would further confuse people. The best thing really is to search the forum, if you can't find an answer make a post and 9 times out of ten you get very detailed help from users..

[chrisjj]

it isn't his job to write a guide on every possible thing you can do with expressions

I've seen no-one asking for such a thing.

Talking about limitations of complicated features in a manual would further confuse people.

It would be less confusing than the current solution of having users discover them by trial and error.

[gappie]

in the past mc had a manual. nicely written. the problem was updating it. and to be honest, i do think the wiki does a much better job. though having the alphabetic index as a main portal is a bit confusing. a setup beginning with getting started and a bit different organisation could help, i think, people who just started. http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Getting_Started

and i agree the developers are not always the once who know best how something works. and that gave birth to nice pages like the one about expressions, for instance. http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Center_expression_language

 
gab

[BillyBoyBlue]

I find it curious as stated in this thread that in the past someone, perhaps more than once more than one person volunteered to write a manual for GRATIS and was if as reported rebuffed by the creators, curious conduct. Don't take it the wrong way, but such apparent arrogance and pigheadedness doesn't not sit well will many users who afterall have PAID for MC and are entitled to get to use ALL it's features, not stumble blindly along or depend on the charity of those willling to answer questions in this forum or probably worse, stumble thought not well written and badly outdated Wiki articles that have no apparent order and often lead to more, not less confusion.

[chrisjj]

in the past mc had a manual. nicely written. the problem was updating it.

I wonder why updating a manual was considered a problem. It is a lot easier than updating e.g. code.

[JimH]

Don't take it the wrong way, but such apparent arrogance and pigheadedness doesn't not sit well will many users who afterall have PAID for ...

I think a lot of viewpoints have been expressed, and I don't want to rehash old conversations.  I'll lock this now.

Just call me arrogant and pigheaded.