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Author Topic: TV Calibration spider  (Read 24834 times)

InflatableMouse

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TV Calibration spider
« on: January 15, 2013, 05:46:59 am »

http://spyder.datacolor.com/portfolio-view/spyder4elite/

Does anyone have experience with these or something similar?

Would you choose another brand or model?
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Sandy B Ridge

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2013, 05:56:18 am »

I've used an old Spyder on my old desktop PC. I read a bit about these on the yCMS forum on doom9 amongst other places. It seems there are two types of devices:

a spectrophotometer. This is the one to get because it has a wider gamut and more stable/accurate, but can be more expensive.

A colorimeter. Cheaper version of the above, but not quite as good.

That said, any calibration is better than none and the advantages of the spectrophotometer may not be that great with TVs versus a wide gamut 'photo' monitor.

Calibrating my TV for MadVR is something I keep meaning to get around to doing. There doesn't seem enough hours in the day at the moment.

If someone has done it, I'd appreciate a quick guide as to the basic steps involved too. 

SBR
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InflatableMouse

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2013, 06:20:34 am »

Thanks SBR.

The Spyder4ELITE features a full-spectrum 7-color sensor; I can only assume its better than the older models which weren't that great from what I've read.

Having said that, my TV has some great built in calibration options. Black and white clipping patterns help setting contrast and brightness but the built in stuff my TV has include color filters. With the color calibration test patterns I can correct red, green and blue individually.

I'm not sure what a calibration spyder can offer more on top of that.

I can get the black levels very good, probably near-perfect but white clips early (2 or 3 steps). No matter what I try, I can't get that correct. Maybe its impossible to get this correct, I don't know. But since the TV is hooked up to a PC, I would "think" a calibrated color profile should be able to fix that.
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Sandy B Ridge

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2013, 07:30:30 am »

What I gather is that the controls on the Tv can only set the top and bottom of the levels.  Usually only for combined brightness and not individual channels for RGB, so you are lucky there. Where the calibration helps is with multi point tweaking throughout the ramp curve.

Of course, ideally you'd get a man in to do a one-off professional ISF calibration of the TV to get the baseline and then do the calibration on the PC with a spectrophotometer. Starting out with an uncalibrated source and screen isn't ideal because you could be compounding the error unknowingly!


SBR
 
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glynor

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2013, 09:50:49 am »

I have one, though I haven't used it for a TV yet.

My current HDTV at home is calibrated using PC software, which is annoying for a few reasons, but I haven't gotten around to using the spyder in this mode yet.
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hulkss

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2013, 10:07:58 pm »

I use the X-Rite EyeOne Display 3 Colorimeter with ChromaPure software in my HTPC to adjust the hardware settings in my display device. http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure_EyeOneDisplay3.shtm

Then I use "basICColor display 5" software to generate an ICC color profile for my HTPC.
http://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-display-5-en/

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BillyBoyBlue

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 06:04:53 pm »

For what it's worth... I recently purchased a Panasonic 65 inch 3D "smart tv",  (outstanding picture quality in the plasma version) and in general I'm very happy with it. Calibration using a spectrophotometer is sorry, at best an ify if not near worthless process UNLESS you get a good meter. Sorry, good ones that are accurate cost between $700-$1,000. So retail products like the Spyder are little more than toys in spite what you might of heard in marketing hype. So the caution I'm suggesting is while products like the Spyder might suggest changing your settings and the actual result can be to actually move them further, not closer to specs, not closer. It all depends on the luck of the draw. If the meter is reasonably well precalibrated, hasn't sat on the retailer's shelf for months, been dropped or suffered any number of other shocks, then maybe you might tweak out a bit better picture.

If you think paying a "professional" to do a claimed professional calibration, guess again. Sorry to say this too is often a racket. Some out of work bozo charging you between $200-600 and he might just bring a little three year old Spyder and stumble through the process and also actually take your tv further out of calibration.

I subscribe to the "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it" club. I wouldn't try to calibrate any tv unless and until it is obvious something is off or you just might make it worse. If you must wait till at least there's a few hundred hours on the set so components have "burned in and stablized.
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hulkss

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2013, 09:11:52 pm »

Calibration using a spectrophotometer is sorry, at best an ify if not near worthless process UNLESS you get a good meter.

True. Here is a ranking of meters. I own and recommend #9.

From:http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11436

So what's the best meter?

People want lists so here's one! Generally speaking, from worst to best we have:

1. Spyder 1/2/3 (not recommended)
2. EyeOne Display 2/LT
3. EyeOne Display 2/LT PRO
4. X-Rite DTP-94
5. X-Rite DTP-94 PRO
6. X-Rite Chroma 5
7. X-Rite Chroma 5 PRO
8. X-Rite Display 3
9. X-Rite Display 3 PRO
10. X-Rite EyeOne Pro / EyeOne Pro 2 (Not suitable as your one and only meter in most cases)
11. X-Rite Hubble
12. JETI Specbos 1201 (Not suitable as your one and only meter in most cases)
13. JETI Specbos 1211
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InflatableMouse

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2013, 12:40:59 am »

Thanks guys, appreciate the feedback.

I've read those articles about the spyder too, its not the first time I'm considering calibrating my monitors/TV set. For my monitors I borrowed one from a colleague, the EyeOne if I'm not mistaken.

Having said that, all those reviews and recommendations are somewhat outdated and although I would generally agree a professional 700 dollar device would be better than a 150 dollar homeuse one, I was still curious how the new one, Spyder 4 would be any better than its previous generations.

Either way, I've decided to let go of the idea again, for now.
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Sandy B Ridge

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2013, 02:38:17 am »

Then I use "basICColor display 5" software to generate an ICC color profile for my HTPC.
http://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-display-5-en/
I can see ICC profiles working for windows apps like Photoshop great.
What about MadVR? Do they affect what MadVR does with the graphics card? Is there a difference between Exclusive/Overlay/Windowed mode? I didn't think it was as easy as doing an ICC profile and loading it up in windows. I thought MadVR needed a yCMS 3D LUT and ignored the ICC profile?  I'm sure I read something about it on the doom9 forum a few months back. I wonder what happens if you do both an ICC profile and do the yCMS thingy with MadVR??

Too confusing!

SBR
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hulkss

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2013, 10:30:47 pm »

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BillyBoyBlue

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2013, 12:27:55 pm »

ICC profiles and attempts at calibrating color space between various devices is another deep topic that often causes you to pull your hair out in frustration. I've been an Adobe Photoshop user since version three, way back in the dark ages. Things have changed a lot to say the least.

It really boils down to WHAT you're trying to accomplish. Many excellent articles on the web and also built-in Photoshop's excellent online help system on this juicy topic. The general idea is to as much as possible "match" how colors look on your monitor, to hopefully "match" as much as possible hard copies from a home or commerical printer, on other devices like a tablet, played back on a tv and if burned to a DVD and so on. Easier said then done since each device typically has its own "color space" and thus the rub since it is rare to find two devices using the exact same color space.

What IS Color space? Swiped and paraphased from Wikipedia: A color model or abstract mathematical model describing the way colors can be represented as numbers, typically as RGB and CMYK color models. However, a color model with no associated mapping function to an absolute color space is a more or less arbitrary color system with no connection to any globally understood system of color interpretation. Clear as mud, right?

Since many reading this are serious hobbyists or beyond what I suggest is first picking a default color space and application to be your control and default color space everything else is based on. My choice is Photoshop, mainly because it gives you so many options.

The devil in the details. Why I'll never know, but Adobe loves to fiddle and move features around. I'm using verson 12 from the CS5 extended 64 bit part of a master suite with over 15 applications. You might have to look elsewhere then below.

In version 12 go to Edit, Color Settings, just to see what some options are. Next open a few test images, then select assign profile. Note by default Don't color manage is selected. Many will find this the easiest choice since Photoshop won't nag you every time you open a file. However if you want to get fussy, spend some time playing around to what the impact of different profiles. Some are striking.

Select profile then click on the little down pointing arrow and see the beweilding options available. If you are luckly and have one of the more popular printers you might find a profile designed to "match" that printer. If not, you probably can find and install one. You can of course simply test each profile listed and of course install even more.

What Photoshop will do is use some caculations to "match" as much as possible the color space your printer or other device uses. Don't expect absolute perfection. It should be close. The only way to know for sure is print out a few samples from difference sources and compare them to what's seen on screen to your hard copy.

Caution: If you have more that a throw away cheapo printer it do likely will have many options that can work with or AGAINST the profile you select. So again experiment. Also if printing to photographic stock like glossy paper don't forget to set your printer accordingly or you won't get the results you expect. I've been using a Canon MP600 with excellent results for a couple years.

The downside to "color matching" in Photoshop is if enabled is will nag worse then your mother-in-law EVERY time you open any image. If an image already has a matching profile, fine. If not Photoshop will nag if you want to use the one your selected or another one. Which can get annoying quick.


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mykillk

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2013, 05:54:27 pm »

I bought my Spyder 4 with SpectraCal CalMAN 4 in a bundle. It was a really good deal, and Spectracal actually hand calibrates them so they are even more precise than other Spyder 4s. Unfortunately they don't sell them anymore.

The results after proper calibration were amazing. Night and day difference.

It's my only experience with a colorimeter so I can't say how good it is compared to others.

Spectracal now sells CalMAN 5 with a C3 colorimeter, which uses similar guts as the much more expensive X-Rite Chroma 5 colorimeter

http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman5-bundles/spectracal-c3-with-calman-5-basic.html

If you're willing to go up another step in price, this is an even better colorimeter

http://store.spectracal.com/consumer/calman5-bundles/calman-5-basic-with-i1-display-pro-bundle.html
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mykillk

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2013, 06:17:23 pm »

I use the X-Rite EyeOne Display 3 Colorimeter with ChromaPure software in my HTPC to adjust the hardware settings in my display device. http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure_EyeOneDisplay3.shtm

Then I use "basICColor display 5" software to generate an ICC color profile for my HTPC.
http://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-display-5-en/



If my TV has 10-point ISF calibration capability and I've calibrated it with my Spyder 4 Enhanced, is it still recommended to do ICC calibration to get the best results?

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NoDigital

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Re: TV Calibration spider
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2013, 08:36:34 am »

I have a Spyder 2 and a Spyder 3 and they appear to work just fine.  Calibration looks good and images are more accurate than what they would be uncalibrated.   Are they 100% spectrometrically correct, no idea and not worth worrying about for my domestic use.

An easy option is to pick up a cheap Spyder 2 for $30 and use dispcalGUI to create a 3dlut.   See how it goes and if you don't like the results, resell it.    Will you see the difference between spending $30 and $700 - For me that would only be a yes if you get two calibrated displays side by side for comparison or accurately know how a colour is supposed to be represented.  Otherwise, some calibration is better than none and the eye/brain will accept hue, saturation and luminance differences without question.
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