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Author Topic: Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback  (Read 11345 times)

richspicko

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Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback
« on: April 30, 2013, 12:49:07 pm »


My apologies if this is tired and repetitive. I've searched/read here and on audio forums and still find myself confused by some basic digital audio issues.

I have several hundred CDs ripped to lossless formats on an external hard drive (primarily APE but can convert to FLAC or whatever).  I have a couple decent (Denon, Onkyo) older amps/AVRs and am looking to get the best sound I can possibly get from my lossless digital archive.  The only PC I currently have is an outdated Dell Laptop running XP SP3.  i can certainly play my files and output through my headphone jack, but I'm looking to get better sound.

From what I understand, my options are 1) to get a high end sound card, internal or external in this laptop or a new PC, 2) to get an external DAC to connect to this or another PC, 3)  get new AVRs that have newer built in DACs and 4) and number of network media options.

I think I'm leaning toward and external DAC.  That would allow me to have portability around the house or to my brother's house, etc.  That said, I'm a bit confused on DACs.  What is the interface?  Will Media Center stream direct / raw digital to the DAC via USB or will it do it's own conversion?  Same question about other interfaces.  I'm confused about digital audio formats and interfaces.  Any software sampling would seem to defeat the purpose.

Better options/alternatives?  Looking to only spend a few hundred on a DAC if possible.  If I need a new PC, I'll clearly go beyond that.  I'm due to update PCs regardless.  I'd like to make use of my current amps.

Any help for this newb greatly appreciated.
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mwillems

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Re: Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2013, 03:19:54 pm »

I think I'm leaning toward and external DAC.  That would allow me to have portability around the house or to my brother's house, etc.  That said, I'm a bit confused on DACs.  What is the interface?  Will Media Center stream direct / raw digital to the DAC via USB or will it do it's own conversion?  Same question about other interfaces.  I'm confused about digital audio formats and interfaces.  Any software sampling would seem to defeat the purpose.

Better options/alternatives?  Looking to only spend a few hundred on a DAC if possible.  If I need a new PC, I'll clearly go beyond that.  I'm due to update PCs regardless.  I'd like to make use of my current amps.

The interface will depend on what kind of external DAC you buy.  Some are USB, some are firewire, etc.  Media center will send digital information to an external DAC, and the DAC will perform the digital to analog conversion.  JRiver will do audio decoding and send the digital information unaltered to your DAC if you set it up that way. Decoding is a necessary part of reading most digital audio and (for lossless formats) doesn't affect the "bit-perfectness" of the output.  

If you're looking for a cheap portable DAC, I can recommend the Fiio e17 based on personal experience.  It's about $130, and another user here liked it well enough to do a write-up : http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=78637.0.  It's a combination DAC and headphone amplifier, but there is a 10 dollar attachment (the L7) that will turn it into a line source that can be hooked up to the analog inputs of one of your receivers.  I've had no problems with mine and the sound is excellent.  If you want to go cheaper yet, Fiio also makes a "little brother" which is the E7.  I have an E7 as well and it works fine, but doesn't sound as nice as the e17 (and doesn't support higher resolution playback).

Obviously there are nicer external DACs available, but I'm not aware of too many nicer ones in the sub-$200 price range.  There also some very nice internal soundcards in your price range as well (Asus Xonar cards, or the Creative Titanium cards) that would accomplish the same thing, but that would require a PC and you said you were inclined to go external.  
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kiwi

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Re: Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2013, 12:59:51 am »

There's another thread here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=78560.0

Which discussed pretty much the same thing, hope some of it is useful
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mwillems

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Re: Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2013, 08:11:29 am »

There's another thread here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=78560.0

Which discussed pretty much the same thing, hope some of it is useful

You mentioned in the other thread (a while back) that you had an ODAC on order, what do you think of it (it would be in his price range too)?
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richspicko

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Re: Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2013, 08:23:48 am »


Thanks for the replies folks.  I'd read that other thread and will again.  My confusion was with what USER interface to my library would be used, and I'm hearing MC will send digital to the DAC, which basically answers that question.  I was concerned that any UI/library interface would perform a DA conversion.

I'm willing to go as high as $500 for a good DAC if the price difference is worth it.  I will look into the recommendations on the aforementioned thread.

I've also read on some audiophile forum that piping the music through any PC introduces noise and loss of quality.  Not sure what the options are in that case other than a dedicated media player of some sort and then you lose the MC library interface and all the flexibility thereof.

I'll now start looking more seriously at DAC reviews.  If there is a better/higher quality option to a DAC I would also be eager to learn of it.  Again, the best possible quality being the goal.

Thanks again!
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mwillems

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Re: Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2013, 09:15:50 am »

I've also read on some audiophile forum that piping the music through any PC introduces noise and loss of quality.  Not sure what the options are in that case other than a dedicated media player of some sort and then you lose the MC library interface and all the flexibility thereof.

With a few exceptions (see below) a digital signal is a digital signal.  Well designed software (which JRiver is) does not introduce any noise or signal degradation into a digital signal. Think of what JRiver does with an external DAC as being analogous to moving a file from a harddrive to flash drive: if the process is working correctly the transfer is bit-perfect.  PCs are hostile EMI environments, but that is only really meaningful in an analog context (i.e. if you have a DAC inside of your computer), and even then, many in-PC DACs have outstanding performance.  

All that said, there are some possible signal issues with digital transfers (such as buffer underruns or clock jitter):

Buffer underruns (drop outs or pops) occur when the DAC is not being supplied with data as quickly as it is playing it.  Depending on your system speed and the DAC you choose, this might be a problem, but JRiver has adjustable buffer settings to address this kind of issue (including loading the entire file to memory if necessary).  This is not a subtle problem (you'll notice it right away if you have it), but should be easily fixable with the tools JRiver provides.  I very occasionally get these with a four year old laptop when the processor is under heavy load, and I only mention it because you're using an older laptop.  If you don't do extended file analysis while you're listening to music, this shouldn't be much of an issue  (unless your hardware components don't get along with each other in a very serious way).

Jitter is more complicated, and subject to a lot of debate, but see this article for some useful info on jitter and some measurements of jitter in a few common DACs (including the Fiio E7 mentioned above)  http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/jitter-does-it-matter.html.  The punch line is that jitter *is* potentially audible (especially at high levels), and that there are several methods that DAC designers use to address the issue.  Many modern DACs (especially once you get into the "over a hundred dollar" price range) have jitter so low that it should be inaudible (although claims about audibility or inaudibility are almost always hotly contested).

There are differences of opinion about some of these issues, but I wouldn't worry about interference or signal degradation as they're commonly meant in the external DAC context.  
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mschneid

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Re: Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2013, 09:28:58 am »

ah... audiophiles..

well I am one...  So...  let me do what we do..  Opine.

Noise....   a PC is a noisy electronic environment for analog signals.... (digital stuff is bit perfect or it would not work at all)... So... you decide where you want to convert the digital to analog... The aftermarket sound cards try to fix this and convert the D top A and give you a stereo output...   You are limited in the length of the cabling to your old receivers etc.   Ie 1 meter cables.

Plan B is to use an outboard dac.  This will sit close to your av receiver and connect with standard 1 meter rca cables.  This separates the noisy PC from the conversion to analog.  
Lots of choices  here from a new AV reciever... new disk player (oppo) ...streamers to Dacs...So... Now you have to decide how you deliver the bits to the outboard Dac.

Wireless  ...  Again you mix computer stuff... the internet overhead... and related noise must be separated in the box from the D to A conversion and then amplify it.  these are often called streamers.

Plan C... USB.  This method will use is a USB cable which is fixed in length...  ... 6 feet plus so... the PC must be within the range of the USB cable.  The computer overhead does not include networking.. and so these devices deliver state of the art analog to your AV system.  The USB DACS vary in price and this is the best solution for music. People build very quiet (physically) PCs.... And they go to extremes to minimize PC noise....   The audiophile goal is perfection... and so the debate is about the last little bit of electrical noise isolation etc etc...   You would need a VERY high Resolving system to hear the differences..  I emphasize... VERY high resolving system.

Plan D.  DLNA... this method is a hot mess of software protocols, hardware implementations and can be wireless or through cat 5 cabeling. The standard sucks in that everything is DLNA compliant and that can mean exatcly nothing with regard to "will your set up actually work"?   Your old AV gear won't have DLNA... so it probably is a moot issue.

I suggest that you look into the wireless streamer gear...  with one PC you would set it up as a JRiver MC server, purchase a wireless streamer for each AV receiver you own....   Then use your android phone or tablet to control JRiver and your PC sending music independently to  the zone (onkyo) or zone (Denon) to play your music files.

Quality.... audiophiles  can go nuts on this as well... eg... FLAC  which is lossless is far worse then wav  for  16bit/48 redbook CD...
Now you can purchase high res formats  96 or 198k 24 bit music.... of course the file sizes explode.... flac< wav< high res formats.  think of the need for a blu ray disk.,,  Bottom line... use lossless files  (good enough)and consider the rest of your systems resolution.

The jitter issues are indeed hotly debated.... IMO... it matters and IF you have a highly resoving system... you will hear the jitter as at worst... harshness in the highs... and /or  loss of detail in the quiet passages.  The good news is.... that you won't reallly know the magnitude of jitter issues until you swap in a better DAC device in your exact system... it is a subltle difference.  Bottom line... most of the modern gear should be acceptable.... and then you can spend $$$ to get to world class...
(See AV forum for interview with the Sheffeild direct to 2 track recording engineer for a pro's perspective)
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richspicko

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Re: Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2013, 07:47:58 am »

mwillems and mschneid - thank you both for your great comments.  Some of this is starting to sink in.   :)  I have read some of the discussions on jitter and clock issues.  Think kI just need to dive in and take a listen.  My ears are probable no longer audiophile quality anyway!  Just tired of settling for my low tech shallow sounding tunes.

mschneid - Two follow ups:

1) I guess I'm a bit surprised that your recommending the wireless streamers.  I'll do a little more research.  I guess my gut has always told me the wired would always be better than wireless (except for convenience).  Doesn't going wireless make your signal susceptible to interference from the myriad EM fields we all have permeating our households?

I think I'm leaning toward first checking out a mid-level, external USB DAC, but I'll look at the streamers a bit first as well.  Any quick recommendation?

2)  Why is FLAC (or APE) worse than WAV?  Thought it was all lossless and same quality, just compressed.   ?

Thanks again for all the great info!

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kiwi

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Re: Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2013, 01:29:48 pm »

You mentioned in the other thread (a while back) that you had an ODAC on order, what do you think of it (it would be in his price range too)?

I've been really liking the ODAC so far, I have it in my O2 amp.  I have zero complaints about it.  that being said, if I were doing it again, I might think about getting the Schitt Modi, it's a bit cheaper and in a nicer box and reviews seem to put it as being close to equivalent.

http://schiit.com/schiit-faq/about-modi/
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mschneid

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Re: Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2013, 07:41:01 pm »

1) I guess I'm a bit surprised that your recommending the wireless streamers.  I'll do a little more research.  I guess my gut has always told me the wired would always be better than wireless (except for convenience).  Doesn't going wireless make your signal susceptible to interference from the myriad EM fields we all have permeating our households?

digital is digital... em fields are not the issue...   wireless can work well.... depends on walls, and your enviorment.   wired is bullet proof .... ..

Now wired  can also mean a USB cable to a dac to 1 meter analog cables... with the PC in the same room.... if that is OK.... that is bulletproof.

I suggested the streamers because you had two av recievers...  and one PC....  You will find many more options in the USB Dac marketplace.  State of the art will be an asynch Dac to your av reciever.

Re streamers...  I am still looking for the right one.... can't help there

the wav versus flac psuedo bs arguments...   
Audiophiles argue everything... some believe they hear differences... they tend to be very noisy on the forums...  i don't hear it or see the valid mechanism that gives their view any weight....   WAV files cannot be tagged as easily...   
Flac is the way to go...   a modern PC is way overkill to uncompress and send audio files to a USB dac.     You should get the hi res dac tho... the ability to listen to hi res music is worth it in 2013.

Have fun with it...
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Moolok

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Re: Re: Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2013, 02:24:39 am »

I have FiiO E07k as dac (new improved version of older E7) and FiiO E09k as headphone amp (this is also new & improved over old E9. This compination is connected to my PC via Usb from E09k. E07k is docked into E09k. E07k is set on Line Out passthru so it does only d/a conversion and E09k does the amplification. The beauty of this setup is the compination of mobility and stationary: I can use E07k as mobile dac/amp and E07k /E09k compination as desktop system. From JRiver 18 I have set up bit perfect output. E17 works as well as E07k above.
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danrgleason

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Re: Newbie digital audio / DAC Qs - Getting the best playback
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2013, 02:16:44 pm »

Not sure if you have pulled the trigger on a purchase yet, but I wanted to pipe in on DACs as I have gone through a dozen or so before finally slowing down on the upgrades to the one I have been using now for just under a year.

The DAC I have choosen to "live with" is made in China by a very compentant designer. The company is Audio-Gd: http://audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm

and although I have tried four of his Dacs and DAC/AMP combos, the one that sounds best to my ears is: http://audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB1.32/NFB1.32EN.htm

It is a fully balanced 32Bit/384K fully discreet DAC (transistor instead of OpAmps for Analog section) with 32 Bit USB driver.
It uses the Sabre ES9018 32 Bit DAC Chip along with the 32 USB Chip.

I connect it to my Music Server via a wireworld Silverlight usb cable and I also use the Audio-Gd NFB-6 fully balanced AMP connected via ACSS cables.

I connect Media Center to the USB driver via WASAPI with 100 ms buffering and I have not had a single issue with pops, clicks, stutters, detectable jitter, or any other annoying artifacts.

I have tried many DACs ranging from $100 to $1,750 and this is the most enjoyable sound for my ears.

BTW - Headphones are also balanced Audeze LCD-2 with Norse Audio balanced cable via Furutech XLR.

Hope this helps...
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