Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Arlett123]

Hi everyone,

I am moving to a new flat soon and want to change my media set up. Your thoughts/opinions on the following would be appreciated!

Music
I will have all of my mp3s organised in Media Center on my PC. This will be played via network to a Yamaha RX-673 which is DNLA certificated. The PC will tucked any in the corner away from the Yamaha and speaker system so will be using JRemote (iPad) to control music play back from Media Center. The PC will also have a small 2.1 system for general use.

I think that is fairly straight forward and will work fine? Is there anything else I need to consider?

One other question: I have an Creative X-Fi Xtreme Music soundcard. Does this, in any way, affect playback quality if the music is to be played back via DNLA? I assume it does although cannot see why?! Can someone please clarify?


Movies
I also want to stream media (mkv 1080p rips with DTS 6 channel audio - file size is around 8gb) over a wired network to play back on my TV and 5.1 surround system.

I assume I could organise all my movies in Media Center, again controlled by JRemote (iPad), to be played on my TV via a media box. Is this possible? If so, which media box would you recommend?

Note: I do want the audio in 5.1 to make best use of my sound system.

I'm wondering whether this will be as simple as the music set up or it it complicated by which media box I select? Would it be easier to playback my movies over the network using the media box remote?

I think that is all for now  

Thank you in advance!
Richard

[AndrewFG]

^^

The claim "DLNA Certified" probably rates among the biggest pieces of marketing b/s of all time. It just means that the box passed some tests; but it does not say which tests it passed. The range of possible tests covers anything from the absolute minimal "can play MP3s via pull" to "supports full featured audio and video via push and pull, and with bells and whistles". So always check the actual specs of your box!

Another option, instead of pushing to the Yamaha via UPnP/DLNA, you could connect to it via HDMI instead (assumes that your PC does have an HDMI output port). This would probably give you more performance and better control over the options.

In either case your PC would be pushing a digital signal that your receiver converts to analog, so in either case the soundcard on the PC plays no role whatever.

[Arlett123]

Andrew, appreciate the response. Noted about the DNLA, that's a potential disappointment! I don't have an HDMI port on either the soundblaster or on-board soundcard so would optical or coaxial provide the same quality and control? What "control" would I lose from using UPnP/DLNA?

If someone could respond on the video side that of things that would be appreciated.

Richard

[csimon]

One other question: I have an Creative X-Fi Xtreme Music soundcard. Does this, in any way, affect playback quality if the music is to be played back via DNLA? I assume it does although cannot see why?! Can someone please clarify?

No. When playing through DLNA the music is sent over ethernet (in a nutshell) so the PC's soundcard has nothing to do with it.

I assume I could organise all my movies in Media Center, again controlled by JRemote (iPad), to be played on my TV via a media box. Is this possible? If so, which media box would you recommend?

I've used a WD TV Live and it handles my mkv files in DD and DTS multichannel OK, outputting via optical to an AV Amp and HDMI to the TV.

I'm wondering whether this will be as simple as the music set up or it it complicated by which media box I select? Would it be easier to playback my movies over the network using the media box remote?

Probably not. Media box interfaces tend to be inelegant and clumsy for browsing over DLNA and file shares, JRemote is a much better interface for this. But some DLNA devices won't allow you to control them with their own remote control once playback is instigated by an external controller. The original WD TV Live was like this, I can't remember if the newer "SMP" version is better in this regard.

[csimon]

I don't have an HDMI port on either the soundblaster or on-board soundcard so would optical or coaxial provide the same quality and control?

HDMI is usually found on video cards rather than sound cards but it will appear to Windows as a separate audio device which you can target directly from MC. HDMI audio is a higher specification and will allow uncompressed multichannel audio whereas SPDIF will only do 2-channel uncompressed and DD/DTS multichannel, but whether this matters or not is down to you!

The WD TV that I mentioned is more-or-less full DLNA-spec in that it will can be controlled externally, i.e. you can push media to it from an external controller via DLNA, and it will also bitstream audio via HDMI. But a lot of DLNA-specified devices are not Renderers like this and only behave as Players, i.e. you must use their own interfaces to browse an external DLNA library and instigate playback (pull).

[Arlett123]

HDMI is usually found on video cards rather than sound cards but it will appear to Windows as a separate audio device which you can target directly from MC. HDMI audio is a higher specification and will allow uncompressed multichannel audio whereas SPDIF will only do 2-channel uncompressed and DD/DTS multichannel, but whether this matters or not is down to you!

I will attempt to use the best possible options for my set up.

My ATI graphics card has DVI but I can use a converter to create an HDMI - this how my TV is currently connected to my PC and it works fine. Do you think there is any degradation in the signal quality using a converter like this?

I can see this in device manager as a seperate audio device (named "AMD High Definition Audio Device") as you mentioned, however, I cannot see an entry in MC - my options in MC are: "default audio device", "creative ASIO", "Creative SB WASAPI", SPDIF Out", Disc Writer" and "Null Output". Why would it be missing?

The WD TV that I mentioned is more-or-less full DLNA-spec in that it will can be controlled externally, i.e. you can push media to it from an external controller via DLNA, and it will also bitstream audio via HDMI. But a lot of DLNA-specified devices are not Renderers like this and only behave as Players, i.e. you must use their own interfaces to browse an external DLNA library and instigate playback (pull).

Great information, thank you! The WD TV is an option for the set up I want then. However, If I do indeed run an HDMI from the PC then I would not need a media box at all. I was trying to avoid this but open to the idea if there is a big difference in useability.

[Arlett123]

No. When playing through DLNA the music is sent over ethernet (in a nutshell) so the PC's soundcard has nothing to do with it.

I understand what you mean. Does that mean the quality playing files over Ethernet to A/V Receiver is the same as HDMI to A/V Receiver?

I've used a WD TV Live and it handles my mkv files in DD and DTS multichannel OK, outputting via optical to an AV Amp and HDMI to the TV.

If I was to run any cable from PC, it would be HDMI so no problems if that's the set up I use.

Probably not. Media box interfaces tend to be inelegant and clumsy for browsing over DLNA and file shares, JRemote is a much better interface for this. But some DLNA devices won't allow you to control them with their own remote control once playback is instigated by an external controller. The original WD TV Live was like this, I can't remember if the newer "SMP" version is better in this regard.

That's interesting. Is there a better option than WD TV Live? I would be happy to spend some more to get full control of files via JRemote. What are my options?

[csimon]

My ATI graphics card has DVI but I can use a converter to create an HDMI - this how my TV is currently connected to my PC and it works fine. Do you think there is any degradation in the signal quality using a converter like this?

I wouldn't have thought so, it's all in the digital domain.

I can see this in device manager as a seperate audio device (named "AMD High Definition Audio Device") as you mentioned, however, I cannot see an entry in MC - my options in MC are: "default audio device", "creative ASIO", "Creative SB WASAPI", SPDIF Out", Disc Writer" and "Null Output". Why would it be missing?

Is it enabled in the device manager? MC should see all audio devices that Windows can see.  Also try searching in these forums for AMD HDMI audio, there might be a known problem.

I understand what you mean. Does that mean the quality playing files over Ethernet to A/V Receiver is the same as HDMI to A/V Receiver?

I can't see that there would be any difference, all settings being equal. Note that sending music via DLNA/ethernet means that you are depending on the video and audio processing of the media box/receiver, whereas using HDMI, USB, sound cards etc from the PC means that MC is doing the video and audio processing and you will find many more tweaks and enhancements available, unless you're deciding to bitstream anyway.

That's interesting. Is there a better option than WD TV Live? I would be happy to spend some more to get full control of files via JRemote. What are my options?

I have no experience of other media streamers. My original comment about DLNA devices not allowing their own remote control to be used still means that you would be able to control via JRemote, my point was that sometimes that's your only option whereas sometimes it's more convenient to hit pause or use fast forward and rewind buttons on a small dedicated remote control than firing up an iPhone or iPad and using the seek bar...

[Arlett123]

Is it enabled in the device manager? MC should see all audio devices that Windows can see.  Also try searching in these forums for AMD HDMI audio, there might be a known problem.

My fault, everything is fine. My current set up had HDMI for video only (PC to HDTV) and RCA for audio (PC to Arcam 8 amplifier). The new A/V receiver was still boxed - I have now linked this to PC via HDMI to check the connection. Incredible sound compared, the Arcam will be staying boxed

I can't see that there would be any difference, all settings being equal. Note that sending music via DLNA/ethernet means that you are depending on the video and audio processing of the media box/receiver, whereas using HDMI, USB, sound cards etc from the PC means that MC is doing the video and audio processing and you will find many more tweaks and enhancements available, unless you're deciding to bitstream anyway.

Again useful information - to be on the safe side I may just run an HDMI cable from PC to A/V set up and I then have a choice whether to use it or not, depending on the "control".

Another question: is there a desired sequence of HDMI cabling for a PC, A/V Receiver and Media Box set up? My TV only has 2x HDMI ports.

I have no experience of other media streamers. My original comment about DLNA devices not allowing their own remote control to be used still means that you would be able to control via JRemote, my point was that sometimes that's your only option whereas sometimes it's more convenient to hit pause or use fast forward and rewind buttons on a small dedicated remote control than firing up an iPhone or iPad and using the seek bar...

Noted. So you are saying that playback via WD TV could be controlled both by it's own remote and JRemote? If so, that will be a definite purchase.

Thank you for the help!

[csimon]

Incredible sound...

 

Another question: is there a desired sequence of HDMI cabling for a PC, A/V Receiver and Media Box set up? My TV only has 2x HDMI ports.

If I understand you correctly, you want PC ==> HDMI ==> Receiver for audio and PC ==> Media box ==> HDMI ==> Receiver ==> TV for video?  In which case the receiver is acting as a HDMI switch and that's the way you would cable it, with one HDMI going from receiver to TV.

So you are saying that playback via WD TV could be controlled both by it's own remote and JRemote?

Sorry, a bit confusing!  You can play media ona DLNA box (e.g. WD TV) in one of two ways:

1. Pull, or Player (DMP), Mode, i.e. using the media box's remote and TV interface to browse and play media
2. Push, or Renderer (DMR), Mode, i.e. using an external controller like MC or JRemote to send media to the box (like Windows "Play To")

Most (all?) DLNA streamers will do 1 but not all can do 2. The WD TV Live can do both.

However, in DMR mode, the original WD TV will not then allow you to use its own remote control after playback has been initiated from an external controller, so once playback has been initiated from an external controller you can only control it via that external controller.  I don't know if the newer model, the SMP, will allow this. I do have one but it's not set up and I don't use it any more, so I can't remember.  My LG TV will do both modes, and it does allow you to then use its own remote control to pause and seek after initiating playback from another controller, which I find easier sometimes than a remote app on a mobile device.

[pcstockton]

Great discussion...

What exactly is the role of a "media box" (WD Live?) here?  Why not straight from PC to Receiver/TV?

I use an HDMI cable to make my HDTV the "monitor" for my HTPC.  I have spdif output for audio into my Hifi (2 channel) DAC.  I use an M-Audio transit to send the videos' audio to my HTR (my HTR doesn't have HDMI).

Should I try something in between?  Will this help with 1080 video that gets choppy in MC?  Can I run my desktop through this so I can use my HDTV as my desktop monitor?

Thanks a bunch!
Patrick

[csimon]

What exactly is the role of a "media box" (WD Live?) here?  Why not straight from PC to Receiver/TV?

1. If your PC is in different room from the TV it may not be convenient to lay a monitor cable.
2. You might not want a big or noisy or unnattractive PC in the room where the TV is.
3. You might not want a Windows desktop on your TV.
4. Your PC's media server of choice might not have as elegant a 10' interface as a media box and it may be more complicated to get working and to remotely control.
5. If you have a low-spec PC, video might be unreliable.
6. Your PC might not have the video/audio outputs that you require.
7. If you have several rooms, it will be cheaper and maybe more convenient to put media streamers there instead of a HTPC for each room.
8. "Media box" also includes TVs and BR players that are DLNA DMRs, so cutting out the middle man - straight from PC to TV as you've stated but via ethernet rather than HDMI, as long as you've got network in your TV room.

I'm sure there are other reasons that people may have!

Will this help with 1080 video that gets choppy in MC?

That's something I don't understand. How come all cheap streamers can handle HD video yet it takes a pretty powerful PC to do it?  It took a lot of tweaking to get my MC to do good video (and I'm still not exactly sure what I did) yet the WD TV Live does it straight out of the box.

Can I run my desktop through this so I can use my HDTV as my desktop monitor?

I don't think so. There is actually a UPnP protocol that allows a server to "project" an application interface to the device but I'm not sure if anything has implemented this as yet.  There may be a piece of software that can capture the desktop and broadcast it via DLNA but I don't know, I think companies like Hauppauge and DVBLink are the likely candidates for something like this if there has been anything developed.

[InflatableMouse]

That's something I don't understand. How come all cheap streamers can handle HD video yet it takes a pretty powerful PC to do it?  It took a lot of tweaking to get my MC to do good video (and I'm still not exactly sure what I did) yet the WD TV Live does it straight out of the box.

A PC is a general purpose device which you can't compare to a specific/dedicated purpose device like a media streamer.

A media streamer has a chip onboard that does hardware accellerated decoding of audio and video. These chips are relatively cheap and do what most people want/expect from such a box. Often though, these players do things with mediocre quality at best and often run into trouble with the highest bitrate material (Planet Earth, the billion white birds scene for instance). The only player I had that played that properly was the Dune HD and that thing was as expensive as a full blown HTPC! Audio playback quality was always a dissapointment from these boxes too.

I owned many of these streamers including popular boxes like Tvix, Pinnacle, Popcorn Hour and Dune HD, and while most of them did oke, they were all far from perfect. When even the Dune HD turned out dissapointing, I bought a HTPC to run MC. Until then, I had been using MC on my PC for audio only.

None of these media streamers that I had properly matched TV refresh rate to FPS of the movie being played, or could properly apply ReClock/VideoClock in case it couldn't match refresh rate. As a result, playback was juttery and often had lip sync issues. And don't get me started on crashes due to heat problems, subtitle support, proper fast forward/reverse support and support for multiple audio tracks in video containers. These device firmwares are often mostly in beta all the time and support is shamelessly dropped when a new model is released (often within a year). These are just a few simple (but to me important) examples of the shortcomings on many of those media streamers. Apart from the Dune HD (which was simply too expensive for what it offered), I suppose you get what you pay for.

So while its true these cheap boxes do something what requires a relatively powerful PC there is no comparison to a properly setup HTPC with MC/ROHQ.

My 2 cents on the matter .

[Arlett123]

What exactly is the role of a "media box" (WD Live?) here?  Why not straight from PC to Receiver/TV?

For my circumstance, I would prefer to not have to run an HDMI cable from one side of my living room to the other as it's hassle! However, I need to consider the pros/cons of playing media via network vs a direct connection via HDMI.

[Arlett123]

I owned many of these streamers including popular boxes like Tvix, Pinnacle, Popcorn Hour and Dune HD, and while most of them did oke, they were all far from perfect. When even the Dune HD turned out dissapointing, I bought a HTPC to run MC. Until then, I had been using MC on my PC for audio only.

This is my concern, a media box might be an unnecessary hassle more so than running a cable and making it look neat!

Appreciate the responses everyone 

[pcstockton]

Thanks a ton for the advice and explanations above.

I have an HTPC but I am only running HD3000 integrated graphics and it has trouble sometimes with just 720p.

Do you think a Media Box could help this?

I am assuming the WD Live would show as a renderer in MC?

The only rub for me is that my TV only has 2 HDMI inputs (and one DVI) and I need one for the Cable Box and one for the HTPC, as I do like using my TV as the monitor for Theater view and general playback.  I guess I could use an HDMI-to-DVI convertor on the HTPC???

Or I could go composite from the cable box (will this be worse than HDMI quality wise?)

The best thing obviously is to buy a new TV and send video directly to it from MC as it will more than likely be impossible not to buy a TV without UPNP/DLNA.

Thanks!

Patrick

[InflatableMouse]

The best thing you could do IMO is upgrade your videocard in the HTPC.

If that isn't possible, I'm pretty sure you should be able to tweak the settings down a little bit so the HD3000 does play properly.

A WD Live will surely play most media just fine (but mind the things I mentioned above), and you'd loose all the advantages MC has to offer: superior video quality, DSP studio, volume leveling, to name a few. I would also think that playing stuff from MC to a renderer would not quite give the same experience as playing them locally in MC. I can imagine problems with playlists, navigating them or possibly not even being able to see a playlist (I had that in the past once). A lot of DLNA devices I think do not support gapless.

I'm not sure if a WD live would appear as a renderer so that you can control it from MC.

The problem with HDMI/DVI converters is that DVI does not support audio and you loose CEC, required to playback protected material.

Composite is not an option I think, its back to stoneage compared to HD. Component (if it has that) can do 720p/1080i and with a good cable, it can be equal in quality to HDMI, but again, it doesn't support audio.

[pcstockton]

Thanks so much.

Firstly, I meant to say component... of course not composite.  And it turns out my TV doesn't have DVI afterall so good to go there.

So I went and bought a WD Live tonight just to try it out.  It wont play anything in MKV or AVI.  Dont understand why.  Something about shares vs media server?  I dont know.... I spent a few hours googling around looking for help.

I did the interface and the few videos that would play seemed to outperform my HTPC, and it was silent.  My ASRock get a little noisy on 720.

In any case I would LOVE help with either getting the WD Live to work, or help making MC Video smooth with my HD3000/Sandy Bridge.  It s a tiny little PC (same size as MacMini)  I dont know if I can/should jam a video card in there.

Any help would be amazing.

All the best,
Patrick

[InflatableMouse]

Thanks so much.

Firstly, I meant to say component... of course not composite.  And it turns out my TV doesn't have DVI afterall so good to go there.

So I went and bought a WD Live tonight just to try it out.  It wont play anything in MKV or AVI.  Dont understand why.  Something about shares vs media server?  I dont know.... I spent a few hours googling around looking for help.

I did the interface and the few videos that would play seemed to outperform my HTPC, and it was silent.  My ASRock get a little noisy on 720.

In any case I would LOVE help with either getting the WD Live to work, or help making MC Video smooth with my HD3000/Sandy Bridge.  It s a tiny little PC (same size as MacMini)  I dont know if I can/should jam a video card in there.

Any help would be amazing.

All the best,
Patrick

Do you own a Core 100HT? Upgrading videocard is probably not possible in such a small form factor.

I'm sorry you're already having issues with the WD Live. If I remember correctly some of these devices could play certain files only via a fileshare, their ability to accept certain filetypes via DLNA was limited. I think external subtitle support has this same restriction, that only works if the streamer is reading a file itself from a share. At least, that used to be the case but things might have changed/improved.

Anyways, couple of things I'd like to know before we dive into MC and start tweaking things.

1. Which brand/model TV do you own? Do you know which display modes it supports natively? Otherwise I'll try look it up.

2. OS version on the HTPC, CPU type and RAM installed.

3. Video driver version.

4. Can you list the following settings from MC? On the zone that plays your video, open playback options, click video:
Under General:
- Video Mode: (Red October mode)
- hardware acceleration
- videoclock
Under Display Settings:
- is automatic dispaly settings enabled?

Under Audio (left pane), do you have bitstreaming enabled for something?

[csimon]

So I went and bought a WD Live tonight just to try it out.  It wont play anything in MKV or AVI.  Dont understand why.  Something about shares vs media server?  I dont know.... I spent a few hours googling around looking for help.

Both my WD TV Lives (an old one and the newer SMP one) play AVI and MKV perfectly via DLNA!  It might depend on what encoding was used, I think I'm using H264 in both, I can't remember though.  Are you doing it via DLNA (and are you pushing or pulling?) or via shares?