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[jkauff]

When I play a movie from the File List view, the next movie in the list starts playing when the first one ends. I can't find the setting to turn this behavior off.

Please point me to the setting. Thanks.

[6233638]

Unfortunately, I think there's only a global preference for this, so it would also affect audio playback. (Tools > Options > General > Behavior > Double-click Behavior)

I'd really like to see an option that lets us control this behavior on a per view basis.

I want Music and TV shows to play all files in the view and ignore grouping. (play all shows rather than stopping at the end of a season for example)
Other views I have would be better if it played all files in a group only.
And for films I want playback to stop after each file, rather than adding every single film in my library when I double-click on one to start playback.

[glynor]

While that is true, there are ways to pretty easily mitigate this if you design your view well.

Can you describe more exactly what you are using to choose and play the files?  I'm assuming Standard View (in Theater View, it should work like you want it to out of the box), but what does your view look like?

It would be reasonably simple to construct a nice view that does this for you pretty much automatically.

[jkauff]

This is the default full screen thumbnail list view that MC shows when it launches. I didn't see anything in the list options for that screen that relates to this behavior. There was an option in Now Playing, which I turned off, but it doesn't affect movies launched from the list.

[glynor]

Here's an example of a custom view that might do what you want:


Click to play.

[fitbrit]

That was invaluable, glynor. Many thanks!

[6233638]

That's an interesting workaround to two separate issues.
 
 
I'd still like to see expanded library controls for this though.

If I double-click a file on the first album here, I want it to continue playing the second album and every other file in the list until I hit stop.

I know you can hit the "Play" button on the Artist to play all their albums, but maybe I wanted to start on Track 7 on album 3 of 19, or Series 1 Episode 9 of a TV show and want to continue watching Series 2 Episode 1 without interruption.

[MrHaugen]

Would it not do exactly that with the General option of Double click behavior "Replace Playing Now (All)"?

[6233638]

Would it not do exactly that with the General option of Double click behavior "Replace Playing Now (All)"?

No, that will not play across groups. (in this case, grouped by album)

[glynor]

No, that will not play across groups. (in this case, grouped by album)

Yeah... I think this is by design.  I can see how reasonable users would disagree on the "proper behavior" for this situation.

As it is in MC, View Groupings are treated, essentially as though they are separate "tiers" of categories (or separate Panes if your view is in Panes-mode).  It displays them inline, but when you use files within a grouping, you can "imagine" that you've actually drilled down into that category and are viewing only that one "item" at the grouping level.  They are not just "the way it is drawn on screen".

As I said... I think reasonable users could disagree here, but if I had to bet, most users would probably expect the current behavior.

Personally, the whole Grouping system confuses me.  It seems to outsmart me sometimes, and I often can't quite get the grouping behavior I want.  The biggest issue is that it messes with your sort order, and you aren't able to directly choose what particular tags to use (in what order and combinations) should be used.

For example... I do not use the [Artist Album (Auto)] system at all.  I never, ever, ever want sets of files grouped by "Various Artists" in any view.  I couldn't care less that a particular file by Artist X came from a movie soundtrack or mixer, and if I want to go and listen to a particular "compilation" album together (which is rare enough) then I'll browse through All Artists and choose the Album itself at the next tier in the hierarchy.  But, if I try to group my Music view by Albums (which would be nice in theory) then it moves all those soundtrack and compilation albums to "Various" in the sort order, even though I have [Artist] and not [Album Artist (Auto)] in ALL of my views, columns, and sort order schemes.  It, essentially, overrides your sort-order and uses the grouping Field as the topmost sort-order item.

I realize this is personal preference, but it can be frustrating.  It would be perfect if we could specify grouping that comes "underneath" the current sort order.  So, if I have a sort order that is:

[Artist], [Album], [Disc #], [Track #], [Name]
(which is what I commonly use for music)

I'd like to apply [Album] grouping, but have it keep the sort order identical to how it is without the grouping applied, only adding groups where multiple consecutive files in the existing sort-order would already be "contiguous" (based on the current sort-order).  That way, I could group by album without having my albums that happen to have some non-alphanumeric character at the head float to the top of my sort order when I'm viewing the "All Artists pane" in my view.

[6233638]

As I said... I think reasonable users could disagree here, but if I had to bet, most users would probably expect the current behavior.

Would they? I think Media Center is the only program that does this. Everything else I've used plays all the files it's showing in a list rather than stopping part of the way through.

Personally, the whole Grouping system confuses me.  It seems to outsmart me sometimes, and I often can't quite get the grouping behavior I want.  The biggest issue is that it messes with your sort order, and you aren't able to directly choose what particular tags to use (in what order and combinations) should be used.

I agree; I wish you could group by one way, and sort the groups another.

It gets particularly confusing sometimes when groups are being displayed one way (e.g. Albums sorted by Year) but when you hit the play button, it plays another. (Albums A-Z)

[glynor]

Would they? I think Media Center is the only program that does this. Everything else I've used plays all the files it's showing in a list rather than stopping part of the way through.

Perhaps you're right.  I certainly agree with you, but I know I've seen (repeated) posts here before where people were frustrated that playback was so continuous (before the grouping feature existed, or before it was in the default views, at least).

I agree; I wish you could group by one way, and sort the groups another.

I don't even want that much.  I just want it to obey the regular sorting rules defined in the view, instead of "overriding" them for display.

It gets particularly confusing sometimes when groups are being displayed one way (e.g. Albums sorted by Year) but when you hit the play button, it plays another. (Albums A-Z)

Yep.  It makes me crazy.  I keep them turned off in all my views except a handful where they happen to work perfectly.  And they aren't my most commonly used views at all (I have them turned on for Audiobooks, for example).

The thing is, I'd really prefer to have them turned on for my normal Genre\Artist\Album music view, but it completely changes my sort order in an unacceptable fashion.

I want them sorted just like they are now, but grouped by Album.  But when I do that, it combines my (otherwise sorted by the vanilla [Artist] tag) albums into "Various Artists" groupings, which makes some tracks "disappear" from the listing, and other albums rise to the top in the sort order.

It works fine once I've filtered to a particular artist, but in the "all artists" mode of the View (nothing selected in the [Genre] or [Artists] pane), it mixes it all up.

I have other places I'd like to use them where it completely overrides my sorting order, or doesn't seem possible with the rudimentary popup menu style selector.  For example: I have a bunch of "New Imports" style views (reverse [Date Imported] sorted views with filters).  It would be really nice to group them by Week Imported (or Day at least), but I can't because all I can do is pick [Date Imported] A-Z or Z-A, which produces this bit of uselessness:



If I could do some kind of filter (date formatting and/or math) on the result to combine it into weeks or something (and have a useful header), I'd use that.  I love the Week Imported pane I use, for example, which is an expression column with:

Name: Week Imported
Expression to group by: FormatDate([Date Imported,0], yyyy - week %U, Unknown Date  Imported)

But we can't do that with the grouping system at all, and it "decides for you" on a bunch of sorting choices.

[MrC]

Create a custom user field, Week Imported, which uses your Week Imported expression.  Then you can use this to group/sort on.

Grouping headers are the sort key.  There are some tricks you can play, but really the Grouping/Heading and Sorting of the Groupings should be separated into two different things (i.e. Group By and Sort Groupings By).

[glynor]

Create a custom user field, Week Imported, which uses your Week Imported expression.  Then you can use this to group/sort on.

Of course...

Not exceedingly elegant, but yeah, that would probably work.  Any ideas of tricks to work around my Various Artists issue (and not otherwise borking my sort order)?

[glynor]

So, I tried it.

Week Imported works (and using a calculated Field instead of an Expression Pane works better because it pluralizes properly).  Day Imported?  Not so much...

They sort in alphabetical order based on the first digit of the date that shows up in the "header" above the thumbnails, so unless I use the format yyyyMMdd, it doesn't work.  If I want it to match the [Date Imported] display in the column right next to it, and use M//d//yyyy, then the sorting gets all hosed (1/1 of this year is always on top of the list).

And, incidentally, I can't get it to reverse its sort order no matter what I do (the A-Z and Z-A options have no apparent effect), not that it would matter since it wouldn't put today on top anyway since it is ordering them not by actual date, but "alphabetizing" them.  My Weeks Imported thing only works because of the particular way I formatted the output, using the four digit year first and then the week number.

[glynor]

PS.  Sorry we kinda hijacked your thread and went on a sideways grouping rant.

[MrC]

So, I tried it.

Week Imported works (and using a calculated Field instead of an Expression Pane works better because it pluralizes properly).  Day Imported?  Not so much...

They sort in alphabetical order based on the first digit of the date that shows up in the "header" above the thumbnails, so unless I use the format yyyyMMdd, it doesn't work.  If I want it to match the [Date Imported] display in the column right next to it, and use M//d//yyyy, then the sorting gets all hosed (1/1 of this year is always on top of the list).

And, incidentally, I can't get it to reverse its sort order no matter what I do (the A-Z and Z-A options have no apparent effect), not that it would matter since it wouldn't put today on top anyway since it is ordering them not by actual date, but "alphabetizing" them.  My Weeks Imported thing only works because of the particular way I formatted the output, using the four digit year first and then the week number.

Try something like:

_hdr_DateImported:
<font size="10" alpha="0" color="ffffff">formatdate([Date Imported,0],yyyyMMdd)<//font>formatdate([Date Imported,0],M//d//yyyy)

The reversing of sort order works here.

[MrC]

Not exceedingly elegant, but yeah, that would probably work.  Any ideas of tricks to work around my Various Artists issue (and not otherwise borking my sort order)?

For example... I do not use the [Artist Album (Auto)] system at all.  I never, ever, ever want sets of files grouped by "Various Artists" in any view.  I couldn't care less that a particular file by Artist X came from a movie soundtrack or mixer, and if I want to go and listen to a particular "compilation" album together (which is rare enough) then I'll browse through All Artists and choose the Album itself at the next tier in the hierarchy.  But, if I try to group my Music view by Albums (which would be nice in theory) then it moves all those soundtrack and compilation albums to "Various" in the sort order, even though I have [Artist] and not [Album Artist (Auto)] in ALL of my views, columns, and sort order schemes.  It, essentially, overrides your sort-order and uses the grouping Field as the topmost sort-order item.

The "Album" grouping label at the top of the Group By menu is special.  It really isn't the [Album] field at all (it is a special treatment of Album, Album Artist (auto) and Date).  Instead, use either a custom field as mentioned above, or use the specific item under Group By > More (sort groups a-z/z-a).

[glynor]

It has been a while, but I did try the Group By > More > Album previously and the behavior was identical.

[glynor]

Try something like:

_hdr_DateImported:
<font size="10" alpha="0" color="ffffff">formatdate([Date Imported,0],yyyyMMdd)<//font>formatdate([Date Imported,0],M//d//yyyy)

Clever boy.  

I'm a little surprised it doesn't make those headers above the thumbs shift over to the right...

[glynor]

It has been a while, but I did try the Group By > More > Album previously and the behavior was identical.

Ok, I'm home now and was able to try...

It isn't identical behavior, but it still doesn't work for me (and this goes back to my original issue, and results in the need for the crafty "invisible font" method MrC came up with just now):

It still changes my sort order.

Don't change my sort order.  I can't use the Group By > More > Album because it sorts by those headers above the thumbnails.  That alphabetizes my view by Album.  That's absolutely NOT what I want.  My sort order is:

~sort=[Artist],[Album],[Disc #],[Track #],[Name]

How can I look at my Music\All Music view with nothing selected in the panes, have it grouped by Album, and have Me and Giuliani Down By the Schoolyard by !!! still be at the top of the view, and not the '58 Sessions album by Miles Davis?*

It should be called "Group and Sort By" not "Group By"...

* I suppose I could use the invisible font trick for this too and just put [Artist],[Album] in the invisible font, but that's awful and it would later block my ability to resort the view easily.  I'd have two places where sorting was defined for all time, and what about on-the-fly click the column header "quick and dirty" re-sorting?  What wins, the columns or the groups?  What about three years from now when I go to change the view and I no longer remember the esoteric setup through a haze of whiskey and other substances?  That won't do at all.

[MrC]

My sort order is:

~sort=[Artist],[Album],[Disc #],[Track #],[Name]

This is the sort of a list of files returned from the view's Search query.  It make sense within the search query, where additional modifiers my act on those sorted items.  And then, it is used as the sort for an ordinary file list in the view.  But when Grouping is enable, it is the intra-group sorting.  It has nothing to do with the sorting of the Groups themselves, which are entirely ASCII-betical.

[jkauff]

PS.  Sorry we kinda hijacked your thread and went on a sideways grouping rant.

I don't mind, since the setting I'm looking for doesn't seem to exist. Rant away.

[glynor]

But when Grouping is enable, it is the intra-group sorting.

I get that it is designed that way, but I don't get why.

I get the pre-designed "super" Album grouping.  That provides an easy-to-use "shortcut" (for a common need), but why is the extra sorting applied to the "advanced" Group By > More choices?

I guess the issue is that I expect it to just "group in place": coalesce items that match contiguously within in the existing sort order.  That's certainly what I wish it would do.  But what I wonder is why is it this way?  If it was "my way" couldn't I accomplish the same thing as the current behavior using a sort that started with [Album] instead?  What extra capability does combining the two, seemingly (to me) otherwise unrelated, functions provide?

[MrC]

I don't know enough of the history behind MC to know why it was designed the way it was.  Probably there are performance reasons, and legacy file list sorting == view's file list sorting.

I would think it would be much clearer and more functional if:

  - Sorting modifiers in Set rules for file display should not affect the view (these should affect the list of files returned from the query only)
  - Grouping / Group Headers should be distinctly separate from the sort key(s) used for sorting the groups
  - Views should have their own settings for file list sorting
  - The special sorting terms such as "Album" should be relabeled to show exactly what they do - these magic, hidden overrides make it very difficult to figure out what MC is doing (like default sort keys).

[glynor]

Just curious...

The File Listing is the query result (perhaps in all but very esoteric cases), so why separate the sorting modifiers from the query itself?  Why would that be valuable and more functional to have (yet another) place to change sorting?  Can you give me a few useful examples?

It has long irritated me that there are two ways to specify sorting of the File Listing (using the column headers or via the Search Query in the Set Rules for File Display), and one of the first options I'd change on any new install of MC (if I wasn't restoring a backup which I would be) is the option to save sort order on list view header clicks.  I suppose there are even three if you count the search box, but I treat that as a Google This Page dialog mostly and don't put too many complex things in there, and I suspect 99% of us are the same in that regard.  Part of that is that I'm oldschool I suppose and when the Views in Standard View were the same Views used by Theater View, you had to put sort order in the Set Rules for File Display section or else the Theater View "version" of your view would just invent its own sorting.

I do agree completely on these two though:

  - Grouping / Group Headers should be distinctly separate from the sort key(s) used for sorting the groups
  - The special sorting terms such as "Album" should be relabeled to show exactly what they do - these magic, hidden overrides make it very difficult to figure out what MC is doing (like default sort keys).

I don't think the fancy Album grouping needs to have a very technical name that describes "exactly what it does" per-say (something too technically named would just scare most users off of using it, and the idea is that it is a simple mode for people that "just works"), but it shouldn't just be called "Album".  Smart Album or Auto Album or something like that would be fine.

And, I'm not saying I'm necessarily against your suggestion to have a separate place in the Customize View dialog to specify sorting, I'm just curious as to why it is better to have two places, and how you would use it if they were set differently.

Though, I might add... It is called Set Rules for File Display, which seems pretty clear to me. 

[MrC]

Just curious...

The File Listing is the query result (perhaps in all but very esoteric cases), so why separate the sorting modifiers from the query itself?  Why would that be valuable and more functional to have (yet another) place to change sorting?  Can you give me a few useful examples?

It has long irritated me that there are two ways to specify sorting of the File Listing (using the column headers or via the Search Query in the Set Rules for File Display), and one of the first options I'd change on any new install of MC (if I wasn't restoring a backup which I would be) is the option to save sort order on list view header clicks.  I suppose there are even three if you count the search box, but I treat that as a Google This Page dialog mostly and don't put too many complex things in there, and I suspect 99% of us are the same in that regard.  Part of that is that I'm oldschool I suppose and when the Views in Standard View were the same Views used by Theater View, you had to put sort order in the Set Rules for File Display section or else the Theater View "version" of your view would just invent its own sorting.

Mostly due to the confusion people have over how to sort the various areas, and because the act of selecting files should be distinct from the later (higher level) presentation of those files.

The selection of files can use a sequence of modifiers to sequence (sort, randomize, sequence) and limit the list of files to be returned.  The sorting done in this phase is often done only to limit certain files; it isn't used for final sorting in the view.  But after thinking about which files to select, at the end of this sequence users also must remember to then think how to sort the file list of the view.  They don't have to think about how to Group the files, or how to sort the Groups themselves.  But they do have to know and remember to sort the file list (which often does not show by default anyway).

You say there are two or three ways to control the sorting of the file list.  There is yet another.  The Sort By menu in a Tab will sometimes, but not always, change the last sort modifier in Set rules for file display (and vice versa).  Or it will append a new one, and this can and does lead to duplicate sort modifiers occasionally.  So there are two UI locations to accomplish the same thing, in two different ways, but they aren't always in lock-step.

It would be far simpler and easier for users to follow and understand if File Selection was distinct from View Presentation.  View Sorting could be set under the view's tab, as:

   - Group By
   - Sort Groups By
   - Sort Inside Groups By / Sort File List By

where the last one switches depending on whether or not Group By is enabled (or this could be made into a single phrase).  The Search query rules for sorting would not be used by the view.  I'd argue there should be Set rules for file display and Set rules for sorting.

These settings could be defined in Customize View, and/or under the Tab (both places so long as they both operate on the same settings).  Currently, its like some are permanently part of the view and some are temporary, neither in a particular, well-defined location connected directly with what a user is doing.

And then there's the problem with header sort markers not being in concert with Sort By, and sort Presets being defined in an entirely different (hidden) location.  Why can't I right click on a Header and select Save Sort Order as Preset?  I can select the columns I want show by right clicking and selecting Presets, but not their sort order.  But I can (sometimes) click these headers to change the sort order.  Weird.  And why can't I right-click a file list Group By header and select Group By here?  Weird.