Devices > Video Cards, Monitors, Televisions, and Projectors
4K TV's
6233638:
--- Quote from: glynor on November 14, 2013, 10:51:32 pm ---I disagree. Only just over the past two years have hardware H264 decode blocks gotten truly competent, and even now, these are often limited to higher end GPUs and CPUs (the FPGA chips in TVs and set-top boxes are almost universally generations old). Display technology has massive color accuracy improvements they could incorporate.
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I think you are mistaken with the H.264 decoding. With commercially produced content, any H.264 decoder should decode the image correctly.
With broadcast and other delivery methods where there's the potential for data loss, the quality of decoders varies in how they cope with missing data, but nothing on the market should have any trouble with H.264
Similarly, I wonder what you think needs improving with regard to color accuracy. It seems that you can buy relatively inexpensive displays now that have very high accuracy over the whole BT.709 gamut. I'm glad that SpectraCal finally implemented saturation measurements in CalMAN v5, because I was pushing them to do that for years, and now that it's in there, a lot of reviewers are using it and the manufacturers have started paying attention to more than just how 100% saturation looks.
--- Quote from: glynor on November 14, 2013, 10:51:32 pm ---1. The full frame DSLR used for "real production". Suddenly, high quality, fast glass is cost effective even for television productions and lower-budget movies, and we have a way to capture it as well. DSLRs (and DSLR-inspired tech in "pro" cameras) are used everywhere now in both big-budget and small screen productions.
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Actually, DSLRs are typically a rather poor way to capture video. They have great sensors, but the process of creating (comparatively) low resolution video from them often has a lot of image quality problems.
--- Quote from: glynor on November 14, 2013, 10:51:32 pm ---OLED has a lot of promise, if they can get saturation and the grid under control. It is expensive, and difficult, to make good OLED displays. You can make high resolution ones, and you can make bright ones, but making color accurate ones is tough.
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It seems like they're almost there with the first generation displays already. Phone OLEDs had these problems, but only because they were intended for use in phones.
--- Quote from: glynor on November 14, 2013, 10:51:32 pm ---Ultrawidescreen?
I don't know. The whole idea of widescreen is already periphery. But it doesn't matter... I really, really doubt we're going to see movement away from 16:9 anytime soon, en masse. There's way too much momentum behind it, and ultrawidescreen isn't "better enough" to be worth replacing everything, yet again.
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Just about all of my film library is "ultrawide" and most of my TV library is 4:3. I have little interest in 16:9 as a format. In many ways I'd actually prefer we still had 4:3 rather than 16:9 today. (but I would prefer ultrawide over that)
--- Quote from: glynor on November 14, 2013, 10:51:32 pm ---But you do with the jump to Netflix/iTunes, in a way (but at much lower quality). Clearly, though, the market has largely spoken. Mark my words: there won't be another major optical disc based format. There may very well be improvements to the current format over time, and some companies will certainly try to make some kind of 4K optical format, but it'll do even worse than BluRay in the end.
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What I'm hoping, is that regular Blu-ray drives can read the first layer of a BDXL disc. That way you can buy a disc which has an H.264 1080p encode on the first layer, and H.265 4K on the other three. Then they can just replace regular Blu-ray discs without requiring everyone to buy new players - that's the only way I see a new physical format taking off.
From what I'm hearing, that's not going to be the case, and we will have a new format that's not under the Blu-ray branding.
--- Quote from: glynor on November 14, 2013, 10:51:32 pm ---But hardware makers won't just sit still. I do think we will see good quality 4K gear, and reasons to use it. I'm just not convinced that it is here, and if I was picking, I'd vastly prefer improved color accuracy. Once you get used to seeing the footage as it was shot, then the conversion to 4:2:0 just looks so flat, and then most of the TVs to an awful job displaying it, and gunk it up with all kinds of post-processing to hide their deficiencies.
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Are you sure you're not talking about color gamut rather than color accuracy? Most displays are rather accurate these days, and 4:2:0 chroma resolution should have little impact on video quality. (it's a big problem with computers/games though)
--- Quote from: glynor on November 14, 2013, 11:12:45 pm ---You don't want to be able to resolve the individual pixels, you want them to be much smaller than your eye's ability to resolve the fine detail. In other words, just because you can't read text at a certain size and distance, doesn't mean you don't see any difference between the letters at all. You can perceive detail, even if you couldn't read text there.
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Thanks, I've been saying this for a long time. The chart assumes that the optimal viewing distance is where you can distinctly make out individual pixels - that's far from optimal. Optimal is when you can no longer make out the pixels that make up the image.
This is part of the reason 4K displays improve the quality of lower resolution content - it may not improve the source quality, but removes the "screen door" over the image.
--- Quote from: glynor on November 14, 2013, 11:22:23 pm ---A tiled 4K display, true. You can basically just glue 4 smaller 1080p screens together, after all. But getting a bunch of separate pieces of LCD in production that all "match" color performance is actually pretty tough, and expensive.
So, making a good 4K display is expensive.
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I'm fairly sure those displays are not tiled. The issue with the Sharp/ASUS monitors on PC is not that there are separate panels, it's that the circuitry driving the panels was not fast enough for a 4K display, so they halve the bandwidth by driving the left and right halves of the same panel off separate controllers.
I was also under the impression that this problem was solved almost immediately by updates from both Nvidia and AMD.
--- Quote from: Matt on November 14, 2013, 11:32:07 pm ---With that said, I'm in line to buy a 4k projector when they're priced reasonably. This is more interesting than 3d to me, after seeing how little I've used my 3d.
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I think 3D is really interesting with gaming, but I have no interest in 3D movies. Half the time the perspective is all wrong for my vision, and it just never looked that good. 3D gaming is really immersive when done well. The problem is that all the 3DTVs and 3D projectors on the market are terrible.
When we get 3D displays that can present a stable high resolution image, then it becomes interesting again.
--- Quote from: glynor on November 14, 2013, 11:47:37 pm ---Completely agree. The optimal viewing angle is pretty close to 50 deg. Maybe even a bit less.
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50 degrees feels about right for me, maybe a little higher even.
--- Quote from: glynor on November 14, 2013, 11:47:37 pm ---And, a nice 4K projector is a completely different story. If you have the space for it... Mmmm. Tasty. You just need a dark room, and that's impractical for most people.
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I keep going back and forth on projectors. I had so much fun with a $500 entry-level DLP projector with an 854x480 resolution years ago. It was projected onto a flat wall and calibrated, and while the room was not perfectly blacked out, it still presented a very nice image and was just really enjoyable to watch.
After that experience I went all out, bought a high-end high-contrast three-chip projector, did a complete room treatment; blacked out, everything covered in velvet, projecting onto a proper unity-gain screen, perfectly calibrated. And that was stunning. Being in a room with a massive projected image where you're in a totally black space and can't even see the walls is something else.
I've moved a couple of times since then, and am back to using televisions now, rather than projectors. And honestly, I don't know if I would do it again. As good as that image was, you always find ways to pick it apart when you are striving for perfection, and no-one wanted to be in that room unless a film was playing. It was quite antisocial really. Honestly, I think I'd rather have a really nice television (an ultrawide OLED ideally...) and maybe get another cheap fun DLP again. Maybe not something quite so cheap now, but cheap enough that I can just enjoy it for what it is, rather than trying to make things perfect.
Sparks67:
delete
Sparks67:
--- Quote from: Matt on November 14, 2013, 11:32:07 pm ---With that said, I'm in line to buy a 4k projector when they're priced reasonably. This is more interesting than 3d to me, after seeing how little I've used my 3d.
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Have you seen the screen cost from Stewart? http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/residential/materials/3d/silver5D_residential.html
Sparks67:
This is one of the Media technologies in UHDTV. Primary it will be for storage, but I see it as the next gen media for UHDTV1 and UHDHTV2.
http://www.infostor.com/blogs_new/henry_newman/stranger-than-fiction-hitachi-discusses-holographic-storage.html
http://www.storageconference.org/2013/Presentations/Wood.pdf Chart 11 shows the next gen.
mojave:
--- Quote from: glynor on November 14, 2013, 11:47:37 pm ---And, a nice 4K projector is a completely different story. If you have the space for it... Mmmm. Tasty. You just need a dark room, and that's impractical for most people.
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My living room has 6 windows, a door, a transom, and opens to the kitchen. In about 5-10 minutes I can black out all windows, lower my retractable 120" acoustically transparent screen, hang the black side screenwall panels, and blackout the ceiling with lycra velvet. It takes a little manual work but looks awesome. Of course at this time of year I don't have to black out much. :) I sit about 10' away. I agree with Matt about having your peripheral vision filled.
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