Devices > Video Cards, Monitors, Televisions, and Projectors
Projector Recommendation?
6233638:
The issue is not brightness - it's contrast. Well, a mixture of both. Obviously you need a bright enough image that it's clearly visible in the room.
But even if a projector is bright enough in a well lit room, the black level can only be as dark as the screen material itself.
Screens like the Black Diamond have a dark surface with a low gain, and a narrow viewing angle - they reject as much ambient light as possible. You then need to pair them with a very bright projector to overcome the ambient light, and the fact that you're projecting onto a dark surface with a low gain.
And you will most likely need a custom calibration for the projector to overcome the limited contrast and the fact that you're projecting onto a dark surface.
Matt:
A bright projector can handle a reasonable amount of ambient light and still look good, but the best results are in a dark room.
And once you see how much better the picture looks if you block off a window during the day (even if it looked pretty good before), it's hard not to want to do that always.
In that case, window blinds are a better solution than fancy screens.
Luckily we only get like 2 hours of daylight in Minnesota, so this isn't a problem for us.
6233638:
--- Quote from: Matt on December 06, 2013, 07:53:24 am ---A bright projector can handle a reasonable amount of ambient light and still look good, but the best results are in a dark room.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure that I agree - here's a comparison between projecting onto a flat white wall (not too dissimilar from a plain white screen) and one of Sony's DynaClear screens, which is similar to the Black Diamond screens:
While neither projector is bright enough for this room, you can see that the main issue was black level rather than brightness.
While a screen like that dramatically improves the black level when there is ambient light, the image still looks "flat" and you need a custom calibration to fix the color and gamma problems it introduces.
Here's an example of what seems to be a properly calibrated image on a Black Diamond screen, with a bright enough projector for the room:
It's good, but still very flat and low contrast due to the ambient light. While you get a nice big image, I'd still rather have an LCD TV for viewing when there's going to be any ambient light.
As soon as there's ambient light in the room, your screen determines the contrast of the image, not the projector.
--- Quote from: Matt on December 06, 2013, 07:53:24 am ---And once you see how much better the picture looks if you block off a window during the day (even if it looked pretty good before), it's hard not to want to do that always.
In that case, window blinds are a better solution than fancy screens.
--- End quote ---
Absolutely. Lowering the ambient light in the room, or going one step further and properly treating the room, pays off far more than anything you will spend on a fancy screen or a high end projector.
If you don't have a treated room, I'd go as far as saying that there's very little point in buying a high-end projector. That high contrast ratio you're paying for is immediately lost when you put it in an untreated room.
With the proper materials, you can even do things which no-one that knows anything about projectors would recommend.
I spent a lot of time evaluating various fabrics before finding the darkest and least reflective velvet that I could, and then I covered the walls and ceiling with it.
Because I wanted the largest image possible... I put the screen right up against the walls.
You normally want to avoid this at all costs, because reflections from the side walls hit your screen and kill your contrast.
With the room only partially treated, here's an image that shows how a reflection off the ceiling lights up the letterboxing area on the screen. (and there's a shadow on the screen from my calibration gear)
With the side walls and the ceiling partially treated, you couldn't even see where the corner of the room was, the screen appeared to be floating in space.
With any ambient light in the room though, the screen completely washes out. (matte white Carada screen) This could have looked better if I had changed the camera exposure, but I wanted as fair a comparison as possible.
If you look at the edges, you can see how they are still relatively high contrast because there are no reflections off the material surrounding the screen.
Once the room was fully treated though, the images were stunning. Other than correcting for camera distortion, these are unedited.
I had people come round who had high-end JVC projectors - I believe at the time they were approaching 100,000:1 contrast - and they were blown away by the image my low-end 4,000:1 Sony SXRD was putting out. (20,000:1 with iris)
Because they were using them in untreated rooms on matte white screens - but in the dark at least - the reflections in the room just annihilated the contrast performance of their projector. I think my entire setup cost less than one of the low-end JVCs at the time.
When the image is this high contrast, and it appears to be floating in space because you can't see the edges of the room, it's really something else - it no longer looks like a projected image.
But as good as it was, I don't know that I would do it again. To fully treat the room like that, you're basically giving up a room in your house and dedicating it to the projector. It doesn't matter how much lighting you have, the room is pitch black.
I think I would probably just buy one of the Black Diamond screens (preferably motorized) keep it away from the side walls, and watch in the dark without treating the room.
Even though they are primarily for use in bright rooms, the ambient light rejection of those screens are still beneficial in a dark room if it's untreated.
glynor:
--- Quote from: 6233638 on December 06, 2013, 10:05:56 am ---here's a comparison between projecting onto a flat white wall (not too dissimilar from a plain white screen)
--- End quote ---
I have substantial experience with this, and I would say there is a massive difference between projecting on a flat white wall and projecting on a typical (cheap) Dalite projector screen. That's not a fair comparison. I did recommend he spring for a decent screen, and said that best results would come from a darkened room (to which he agreed, but said he wasn't able to accomplish that as he has a massive wall of windows, and that the projector would be primarily for watching things in the evening anyway).
Quality was NOT his primary concern. The source he'd be playing from was going to be crappy anyway. His main goal was to set up a place to watch the World Cup games, which he was going to stream here via VPN from his house in Germany (because they don't air them all here). So, we're looking at craptastic "streamed via the Internet" quality anyway.
In any case, thanks for the advice. I actually made my recommendations about three weeks ago though, so... ::)
--- Quote from: Matt on December 06, 2013, 07:53:24 am ---Luckily we only get like 2 hours of daylight in Minnesota, so this isn't a problem for us.
--- End quote ---
Yep. Same here. And, we're so far east in the stupid time zone that it is pitch-black by 4:15 or so right now.
Why, oh why, won't the idiots in my state let us move to the Atlantic time zone where we belong.
glynor:
--- Quote from: 6233638 on December 06, 2013, 10:05:56 am ---If you don't have a treated room, I'd go as far as saying that there's very little point in buying a high-end projector. That high contrast ratio you're paying for is immediately lost when you put it in an untreated room.
--- End quote ---
Totally agree, by the way, but he wasn't looking to buy a high-end projector...
--- Quote from: glynor on November 15, 2013, 10:30:42 am ---1. Around or less than $3k
--- End quote ---
Now, opinions on "high end" projectors can vary. I'd call the $25k Christie I have here at work high-end, but from their perspective it is one of their lowest-end models. And, for example, I don't know that I'd call any of the current JVC projectors truly high-end, but again, that's a matter of perspective. In any case, though, I don't think most people would really call a $3k projector "high end". Not in my field anyway.
In any case, thanks for the conversation anyway!
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version