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Author Topic: A few off-topic thoughts on government  (Read 18811 times)

hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2002, 12:51:30 pm »

Zevele10
Your posts are well taken but as I asked in another post what is your solution you are on the front line you see everyday what we seen once. I try to understand what people think about us and I don't think money will buy respect it would be nice if every one could get along but that is not going to happen in a dictatorship people have no say in what goes on. I have to agree on corporate greed but we won't be able to get rid of that
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Scronch

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2002, 12:52:04 pm »

JimH: >> Scronch, you win the .50 inch TV for making Clinton responsible for the World Trade Center.

Jim, you have misquoted our Constitution twice now, and now you misquote me.  Here are my exact words:


Those policies led directly to the lack of intelligence that allowed 9/11. The Clinton legacy is [removed] in the oval office and 3,000 dead in NYC.


There is a large difference between allowing something to be done and being responsible for it.

Like it our not, our's is a government of policies.  Policies are put in place by administrations.  The Clinton administration put in place policies that halved our military in less than 8 years and decimated our intelligence agencies.  If you see no cause and effect here, then all I can say is I'm glad Matt and company are doing your coding.

Scronch

P.S. - You feel you have to remove the "bj" oral sex word from my commentary, when that is this president's lasting legacy.  He was getting one while on the phone with a congressman, discussing national policy.  You defend this guy, but you feel you have to remove descriptions of his activities from your forum.  Think about that for a while.
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2002, 12:54:38 pm »

alright, I'm going to say one last thing and then I'm done (seriously)

some religious fundamentalists may disagree, but . . .

human beings have been animals (in the biological, not toilet-humor sense) much, much longer than they have been civilized. Reason has made progress, but not replaced instinct. Like other "social" animals, we naturally have an "us vs. them" instinct that's hard to shake free from. The only thing that ever seems to vary, is the criteria in distinguishing us from them. As the world seems to grow ever smaller, we should keep in mind that the broader that we can define the "us," the less likely it is that the nukes will fly. Silly, maybe. But ponder the idea some.
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2002, 01:05:17 pm »

Scronch
By your post Bush cleaned everything up in 9 month's otherwise with a depleted military we couldn't have done so good. What we here now is if Bush blows his nose don't criticize we are in a war.
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2002, 01:08:28 pm »

If you take most of the conflicts where terrorism is involve,if you take most of the terrorism with not real conflict,the roots are 99%  in religion . Not the basque terrorism in Spain,not the ultra rigth terrorism.And i am not sure concerning this last one,we may put this kind of paganisme in the religious frame.Was,all over Europe what we call "wars of religion",The crusades,never ending list.In the american civil war,there is a fracture betwen catholics and protestants.Different streams inside a same religion in USA had very hard conflicts
Concerning here,i would like to think that it is ,at least concerning palestiniens and us,more a land problem than a religious one.But i am very afraid to be wrong
The only way to know is to try to understand,to speak.But with the gun loaded,in case
As Marx said"religion is the opium of people" Seems that it is not good for most of the planet to be stoned
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2002, 01:08:37 pm »

If you take most of the conflicts where terrorism is involve,if you take most of the terrorism with not real conflict,the roots are 99%  in religion . Not the basque terrorism in Spain,not the ultra rigth terrorism.And i am not sure concerning this last one,we may put this kind of paganisme in the religious frame.Was,all over Europe what we call "wars of religion",The crusades,never ending list.In the american civil war,there is a fracture betwen catholics and protestants.Different streams inside a same religion in USA had very hard conflicts
Concerning here,i would like to think that it is ,at least concerning palestiniens and us,more a land problem than a religious one.But i am very afraid to be wrong
The only way to know is to try to understand,to speak.But with the gun loaded,in case
As Marx said"religion is the opium of people" Seems that it is not good for most of the planet to be stoned
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Scronch

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2002, 01:15:45 pm »

hvy duty - Our military remains gutted.  We cannot handle more than two medium-sized skirmishes at a time.  We are at risk.  It takes years to fix these things.  Scronch
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hvyduty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2002, 01:23:25 pm »

Going to put one more post Scronch my take if Bush was'nt put in office(not elected by the people) 9-11 might not have happened the Arab people hate the name Bush (think about)
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JGourd

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2002, 01:27:20 pm »

I guess what we really need is to engineer a good virus that mutates the whole human race in grey apes. Everybody is the same color and too stupid to have religious beliefs. No more terrorism!

Personally, I think the rate at which the humans as a whole rape the earth of its life sustaining resources, the world would be a better place a with a few hundred billion less people.
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tullio

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2002, 01:33:51 pm »

Scronch

If you'll go to http://www.afa.org/magazine/april2000/0400def_print.html/ you'll find data on the rise and fall of defense spending since WWII.  You'll see that, on average, spending over the 8 Clinton years remained just about level with where it was at the end of the reign of Bush I.  The biggest dips took place under George I.  This is not surprising since this is the immediate post-cold war adjustment.  If you factor out the additional funds being requested for home security and hunting terrorists, the current proposal is only slightly higher than Clinton's final budget.

The figures were assembled by the Air Force Association.
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KingSparta

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2002, 01:40:19 pm »

hvyduty

> Arab people hate the name Bush (think about)
That was Funny but i think un-true
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2002, 01:43:41 pm »

tullio
Nice link but as you know people only see what they want to see. My last post PROMISE
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tullio

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2002, 01:46:46 pm »

MHorton

Your caution is well taken, especially in the case of Jefferson, who tended to be erratic in his public statements.  However, quotes culled from private letters are more reliable expressions of genuinely held positions.

Back in 1984 Bernard Katz did exactly what you suggest, used quotes from the framers (out of context) to demonstrate their commitment to a Christian America ("On Our Founding Fathers," American Rationalist, March/April 1984).  In subsequent issues of the same publication, Robert Nordlander effectively decimated Katz's argument.

A good "mainline" reference is The Godless Constitution, The Case Against Religious Correctness. By Isaac Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore. W. W. Norton & Company New York/London.(1996).
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2002, 02:01:52 pm »

Hvy Duty
We are "in a better situation" than you
They hate something concrete: me at this very time in from of my computer,on this piece of land.I can beleive that if i move my computer to France,they will not hate me anymore.If you tell me you are not sure of it,you may be rigth........
The hate of America is much more less rational.You are "the great satan" for this people.Only this,"great satan" ,says a lot about the fantasy of the thing.Do not forget the word "jihad"=sacred war.You are,more than any other country,"the country of Jesus "for them
Why they hate you? For a part it is so easy to have a "great satan' than to give food to people.If Arafat signs any kind of peace agrement,he will have to "sell it to his people",to stop to send kids in the streets,to stop to send suicide bombers.He will have to say now we have to built roads,hospitals,to form teachers and so on.They have NOTHING,no health systems.no roads,no electicity,no water system.And it is not the fault of Israel.They got from Europe MILLIONS dollars and they built nothing.In one word he will have to deal with real life,and this is much harder than what he is doing  now
solutions?Do you think i have one?I have a very provocative one,but a true one.Stop to help Israel,let say help to destroy Israel,you will be very popular to most of this people
Concerning the hardcore part of islamic terrorism i do not see any solution,not from you,not from anyone.For the other part ,money is one of the solution.But not money "given from a plane'Money  not given  to States,but to small projects.I will say to try to give one meal to each once a day,but not McDo hamburgers.To find a solution needs to think a lot,to speak a lot,to try a lot.And not only USA has to do it.And ,also,to bomb
Many,many times i fell like KingSparta said,and i will act according to it if i was allow to do so.And i understand the trauma to be hated for the only raison to be part of the people of a country

If i can ,let me say that i am more that surprise by Bush.I mean in a positive way
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2002, 02:11:36 pm »

I do not buy the "they hate Bush"
Scronch
tanks,planes,soldiers are not enougth.This is not second worldwar,not Vietnam.This is a new kind of war
To have more than 10 people speaking arabic at the CIA is also part of the defense forces
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2002, 02:40:09 pm »

zevele10
Your points are well taken I agree if you feed and clothe and help them be self sufficient I totally agree but we have tried that it don't seem to work. As to Israel they do have a problem but I stand with them. (I'm not Jewish, French-Irish) the Arabs don't want them to exist. Ok I will  probably pee you off but France they are so wishy washy it should be an embrassment to all frenchmen. The Saudi's another one they take our oil money and pump up the bin laden's
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KingSparta

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2002, 02:56:26 pm »

Star Trek

"Patterns Of Force", Star Date 2534.0

Enterprise threatened by 23rd Century Nazis!

A Federation Advisor's experiment in the efficient Nazi government that has gotten out of control, and war routed in racial haterd is being waged against a peaceful neighboring planet.

and as we speak braking news on fox news channel more people have died in Israel, for what?
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2002, 03:00:24 pm »

Hvy Duty
I undestand that you have french/irish blood.I have some droops of irish blood.But this is a long story.......
I agree with you ,you can stand on Israel side and have a lot to say at the same time.
France is an ambarassement TO ALL-period
You are rigth about Saoudi.I was thinking about it ,in others things,when i said "you are not white as snow"The game you play  since so long with them is not healthy.Now they feel you a little stiff since september.So they have "a new peace deal",rubish,they just you to be a good friend again,and still to send money to hamas,jihad islamic,Bin Laden,as allways it was
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2002, 03:05:04 pm »

zevele10
You just said it better than I could.
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2002, 03:11:44 pm »

King
...,for what?Just to have a place on they own,to have a country in the place from where they come from
FOR NOT HAVING ANYONE PUTTING THEM IN TRAINS TO AUSWITCH again
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KingSparta

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2002, 03:14:27 pm »

zevele10

And why are they killing Jewish people?

thats what I don't understand, regardless of the reason
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2002, 03:21:50 pm »

King
don't want to get into with you but the simple reason is they hate them. Dogs hates Cats same thing I guess it it just bred into you
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KingSparta

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2002, 03:27:28 pm »

>> don't want to get into with you
i know

What you say reminds me of simple racism where your mom and dad may hate a race you grow up that way and you also hate that race or religion.

I just don't understand things like that, makes no sence, and is non-productive.
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2002, 03:33:50 pm »

King
If you mean now.They just want to throw away any jews from here.They do not want us.It is a blaspheme to have jews on Allah soil.NOT ALL palestiniens think like this,but a large part.And if no more jews,they will start to kill the few christians and to pull down all churchs
I do not know if you get arabic newspapers translated in us newspapers.But,in many arabs country ,the newspapers said that Israel was behind september attack.And that no jew was kill in the towers,because they got warning from the mossad

Dring,dring,,Hello,mister Moshe KingSparta? Don't go to work tomorrow,we blow out the tower where you work.................................
Ho yes but i have my computer with 70 000 mp3 on it there.
So, let do it,call all your jewish colleagues,tell them to take they computers,mugs,candies and we will blow away the tower the day after
Better to joke about such garbage
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Harry The Hipster

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2002, 03:49:01 pm »

Just a couple of thoughts....

I think it was John Stuart Mill who said that his freedom ended where the other fellow's nose begins. Well worth remembering. No-one in his/her right mind has tried to tell the devout in the USA that they are not free to practice their religion as they see fit (short perhaps of human sacrifice, genital mutilation and the like). The real debate is over the public space - what some perceive as the insistence by believers on appropriating those spaces to their own purposes, so that the non-believers who venture there do so if you will at the sufferance of those who have appropriated it.

Oddly, none of that bothers me very much. I grew up in a Jewish family living in an isolated NE town and went to a traditional NE school where religious observance (not mine, I can guarantee you) was the party line - Vespers once a week, Sunday morning services, etc., all compulsory. Right out of A Separate Peace. I could daydream through it. Probably gross insensitivity, but water off a duck's back.

In fairness, however, other people care a lot. This is a polyglot society, and its becoming more so. We better learn how to tolerate one another, and make our way day to day without arm-wrestling over whose version of Divine Truth hangs in our courthouses, or we'll wind up in a dark and lonely place.

On terrorism, of two minds (they have a lovely time talking to one another at 3 AM).

     - Left brain: "Well, as horrendous as their behavior is, we need to understand what breeds this sort of behavior, besides sheer psychosis."

     - Right brain: "Screw you, mushhead, line them up against the wall, let them say their prayers at warp sped, then fire."

Not necessarily inconsistent, unless you believe that all people outside the Judaeo-Christian culture are inherently evil. Zevele accurately points out that the dispossessed have a distressing tendency to breed much faster than those in the First World, and sooner or later, numbers take their toll. That's particularly so when their road to Nirvana is paved with bombs and self-immolation, which is not exactly a shared value for most of us.

Remember relative deprivation? Favorite theory of the early 60s - uneducated Afro day laborer sitting in a bar in Harlem, watching a TV show with a happy middle class white family in a suburban home with comforts he can't imagine. He might not be starving, but he's pissed. If that was a factor with TV in its early primitive stage, its exponential in an age of instant communications and globalized American culture, and doesn't get better when the viewer is starving as well as uneducated.

So all philosophical issues aside, it is in our enlightened self-interest to create a climate in which they can focus on their own well-being instead of killing the infidels. Ultimately, defusing their anger is a whole lot more effective than killing them - at least for the 80%|PLS|/- who are not truly nuts.

The other 20%? Take over, Mr. Right Brain. They're bad dudes. Don't fall into Mme de Stael's trap: "To understand everything is to forgive everything." Yes, its important to understand, because (Zevele again) knowledge is power, and in the long term is probably more effective than guns alone, but old Mr. Right Brain, the hairy ape, has a legitimate claim here too. If we don't finish off the truly whacked out ones who present an immediate threat, we'll deserve what we get. Doing this won't make it any easier to convert the rest of them, but being rational doesn't mean you have to be heedless, and I'm enough of a neo-Marxist to believe that economics eventually will control over just about every other societal driver. That includes for most of us religion, too.

In essence, a two-track process.

HTH
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2002, 03:49:37 pm »

>What you say reminds me of simple racism where your mom and dad may hate a race you grow up that way and you also hate that race or religion.
That is what I tried to say King I didn't say it was right but I would like to know how to change things. We started in the 60's we are not there yet but this country does try to change I know it's slow but some credit is due it would be nice if everybody got a long but that is not going to happen in the real world(Alan Jackson Here in the real world, I know you are not in to country) but anyway If sombody finds a way we can all get along he will win the prize can't think of it now but the dynamite expert HAS IT once a year help me out its a big prize.
CHEERS
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Severian

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2002, 03:50:34 pm »

Hey, King, where'd you serve when you were in? Me, FSO, 3/82 FA, 1CD. 1993-1996. Nice to see some of the King of Battle's men around the forum to represent.
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KingSparta

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2002, 04:03:04 pm »

Severian

shoot don't remember them all off hand, but i was in germany the same time you were i was in the 3rd Inf div at the time

one was FSO Of 1\506 Inf 1\4 FA now deactivated

is this close?

I went to flight school shortly after, OH-58 A\C

http://www.hoskinson.net/gulfwar/storm82.html



paladin:
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2002, 04:04:09 pm »

Harry the Hipster
How can it be 3 am for you also?Here is 3AM,well almost 4.Tuesday March o5-4am

King
If you want to understand even less
you-if you are white-,me and arafat are from the same race=white
Me and arafat are from the same branch of the white race=semite our ancestor is Sem
more to do with religion,than race
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2002, 04:07:17 pm »

Sorry to be dum,but there is still US army bases in Germany?
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hvy duty

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2002, 04:09:03 pm »

cLOSE KING BUT MINE SAID hELL ON WHEELS NOT SPEARHEAD
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KingSparta

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2002, 04:09:24 pm »

>> bases in Germany?
yes, many

they don't call them bases however, that is more of a Air force thing
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2002, 04:20:20 pm »

Zevele1

>>>>>>France is an ambarassement TO ALL

no, it isn't. For a start, where would our constitution be without Montaigne? And the philosophes'.  Locke too, but he's not French. The French naval blockades of the British during our Revolution. But anyway, I just didn't like that "France is an ambarassement" statement. Now, I suppose, I'm obligated to kill you.

top10 list tomorrow

good night
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2002, 04:32:57 pm »

MHorton
Before you kill me
The voice of France today in the political world is ambarassement
I was raise on Montaigne,Rousseau and many others.At school but also at home.
On the intelectual side[if i have any] i am 99,99% french.And very happy of such a gift
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Severian

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2002, 04:36:34 pm »

Nice page, King! Yeah, Knight had left right before I got there. Some guys who were there hated him. Said he parked the battalion in an area that had been showered with DPICM the day previous. Some moron decided he'd kick one and he's now memorialized by a big silver bowl in the battalion hallway. Knight was teaching at Sill when I was going through OBC.

SFC Wright was there the whole time I was there, though. Funny to see his face again. Nice shot of the A6. Can imagine four of those would go a long way in Eastern Afghanistan. Don't know if I'd have known anybody who was in your area at that time. Maybe Derek Pierson, he was an FSO in a light battalion over there, don't remember which one. Most people who were at Hood with me went over to Germany after I got out.

I think Hell On Wheels is gone, hvy. I suppose you knew that, but they reflagged to 4ID right as I was leaving in '96. Bunch of guys walking around with this blank triangle over their left chest pocket.
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Charlemagne 8

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2002, 05:12:31 pm »

I've always heard that one should never talk about religion or politics at a polite gathering if you want it to stay polite. I believe that point has been made.

I do have to say this. The bombs dropped at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were primitive and relativley weak compared to the planet-busters that were developed during the Cold War.
You "nuke" somebody, anybody, we ALL die. Some now some later but everybody and everything on Earth (except rats and cockroaches) will die if any of those bombs are deployed.

CVIII
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That's right.
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2002, 07:41:16 pm »

I will not idly stand by while someone accuses me of being "polite company." Your country is now on my list. And just where are you located again?

planet-busters? someone failed elementary double-speak

Oh, and I forgot about a signature that I used to use here many moons ago:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, Motto of the Historical Review of Pennsylvania
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JimH

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2002, 10:41:07 pm »

I'm going off line to read the rest of this now, but this from Tullio's post stuck out:

From Thomas Jefferson (in a lletter to William Short):
"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his own from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man."
In a footnote appended to this letter, Jefferson identified that to which he referred to as rubbish thus:
"The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity, original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc."

JGourd on "it would be nice to have a few hundred billion fewer people" (from memory).

It's 6 billion now, going up by 1 million every five days.  33% (2 billion) live in serious poverty).  And the growth is rooted in both poverty and religion.

Scronch,
If you "allow" something, are you not also "responsible" for it?  Interesting question, subject to debate, but I would say yes.  If your religion allows practices that result in the murder of doctors from abortion clinics, I would say you are responsible.

Amazing thread.  You must understand by now that the main purpose was to take some attention off the bugs so the team could get some of them fixed!

Tomorrow, we'll really take the gloves off and talk football.
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Cmagic

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2002, 11:16:19 pm »

I read a lot of interesting things on this thread.

JimH, Zev, hvy duty, Mhorton and all the others you all have good points.

But who am I to distribute good points ?
Who am I to say that this is the truth and this is not ?
I'm just a man, an ordinary man, like millions of them on planet earth.
A man with weaknesses and stengths,
a man with dirt in one hand and gold in the other,
a man with dreams and nightmares, just an ordinary guy.
We're all the same, regardless of our physical and ideological differences,
we're just ordinary folks.
Hoping for our dreams to come true... one day.

- Les Hommes se distinguent par ce qu'ils montrent et se ressemblent par ce qu'il cachent -
(Paul Valery)
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Until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance
than the color of his eyes.
Bob Marley (War)

zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #89 on: March 05, 2002, 01:52:02 am »

Salut
The meaning of all of this was not so much to give good or bad marks.It was to deal with fear
Physical or intellectual or philisophical  fear
A very bad translation of Valery,can be
" people are different by what they show,they are similar by what they hide "
Many of us did not hyde that much on all this posts.If of any help for some it  was worth a lot
I may be the only one fearless.Because i choosed where i am,what i want
bonne journee
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Cmagic

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #90 on: March 05, 2002, 03:09:28 am »

Zev,

I did not mean that this thread was about giving good or bad points.
My post just expressed (very badly indeed) my feeling at the moment, kinda of
bluesy feeling about some important matters discussed here.

>> Many of us did not hyde that much on all this posts.
I Know, that's what I like in this forum.

Bonne journée à toi Zev
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sekim

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #91 on: March 05, 2002, 03:22:08 am »

JimH-

I've got one of those on the front of my truck-BUG DEFLECTOR. Next Page
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tullio

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #92 on: March 05, 2002, 04:05:47 am »

A few random thoughts after reviewing the whole thread:

JimH – if you liked the Jefferson quote, you would probably enjoy seeing where it led him. With meticulous care he edited out all the “rubbish” from the New Testament, and produced his own version.  It’s been reissued recently with an excellent introduction by Forrest Church.  TJ’s version runs about 90 pages.  “The Jefferson Bible: The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth,” Beacon Press, 1989.

MHorton – I’d add the Haymarket Riot to your excellent list and also point out that during the 19th and early 20th centuries terrorists were known as anarchists and/or bolsheviks  and were widely feared.  In fact fear of bolshevik terrorism was a significant factor in Hitler’s rise to power.  But I would argue that things have changed.  Today’s terrorists have access to a far wider range of more powerful weapons, and in the case of al-Qaida financial support such as bolsheviks could never even imagine.  And while the basis for terrorist attacks is still substantially political, the undeniable addition of religious zealotry and racism has changed the nature of both the attacks and the response to them.

I’m also reminded of Marshall McLuhan’s observation that contemporary education is like driving a high powered car with your foot pressed heavily on the accelerator and your eyes fixed firmly on the rear view mirror.

Scronch – You twice upbraided JimH for misrepresenting the Constitutional position on church-state.  I’m genuinely curious as to what you believe he misrepresented.  Here is ALL of what the Constitution has to say about religion:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof (First Amendment)

. . . no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public trust under the United States.  (Article VI, Sec III)

What did JimH say that was inconsistent with either of these?

Zevele 10 (and others) --  I travel a great deal, and, in fact, spent the second half of September and all of October in your part of the world (not Israel, but Rhodes, Cyprus, Turkey, and a few other places).  The vast majority of Americans simply don’t understand how much this country is hated, because they see themselves as a generous, freedom-loving, beneficent nation intent on spreading good in the world.  They don’t grasp that much of the rest of the world looks at our social (health care, unemployment, welfare) and foreign (my way or the highway, what have you done for me lately, support of oppressive regimes) policies and sees us as arrogant, selfish, and hypocritical.  We’ve come a long way since WWII and the Marshall Plan.

Apropos of nothing – James Madison (known as the Father of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights) vetoed the first faith-based welfare bill on February 21, 1811.
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #93 on: March 05, 2002, 04:43:58 am »

jimH
Any kind of things allows any kind of meanings
To be a christian do not means you agree with any killing-doctors or others-A christian may be the most feroce opponent to  such people.Of cause we can say that the very roots of it are in the christian religion in this very case

But there is much more to ask to "the State" as an entity.Why a democratic state allows some of his people to think that divine law -in all of this cases,THEY divine law-  over run the law of the State? And ,in most of the cases ,let them apply "they law"?
The State allows it in many way.Not to care about it,having sympathy for the ideology,not taking seriously this people.But first  of all ,by not having the political,philosophical,moral
enlighten view of the State.Not easy to have when you are a old bad actor of bad zone b movies,or only money makes you the winner-this is for you
Not easy to have when only the fact to had be a good soldier makes you the winner-this is for  me.You lost some doctors,we lost a prime minister  because of it
And this is a much bigger threat to our societys than a gonzo from outside playing the "i hate you-BOUM" game

Listening to Electric Prune-Mass in fa
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zevele1

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #94 on: March 05, 2002, 05:21:24 am »

Tullio
I do not put  Rodhes,Cyprus,Turkey in the "we hate you"camp.But in places where many,many ,many people dislike America.Or dislike a certain America,let say AmeriKa.There is a long list:Spain,Germany,Belgium,Italy,France,Portugal,Holland,greece,much less in northen Europe.This people will not lead any violent or terrorist actions against USA.-ok they do burn down MacDo from time to time-And you will be the most welcome friend in houses of all this people.But the dislike reach all parts of the society,from students to university teatchers,from trade-workers to lawyers.Maybe, you want do good and you do it the wrong way
But it is not the raison for Europe feeling
Anarchist &bolsheviks had the goal to change they own societys using also violent tools.Not really the case for islamic terrorism

if not for the ricains,we will be all in Germany,to wave to who knows,speaking i do not know which language

french song     -ricains Next Pageopular,non pejorative for americans
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Doof

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #95 on: March 05, 2002, 05:23:21 am »

Hey, has anybody seen the Media Jukebox forum? I'm pretty sure I left it around here somewhere... but now I seem to have wandered into the Political Debates forum by accident...
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Severian

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #96 on: March 05, 2002, 06:15:07 am »

Insolent INFIDEL! Nuke the Doof!
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Michael Horton

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #97 on: March 05, 2002, 07:26:42 am »

tullio

thanks. you should host a salon.

JimH

>>>>>>You must understand by now that the main purpose was to take some attention off the bugs so the team could get some of them fixed!
I can see a coulple of good reason's to continue this practice periodically.
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tullio

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #98 on: March 05, 2002, 09:01:05 am »

MHorton

I'm afraid that at my age I can no longer do hair.

In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michalangelo
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tullio

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RE:A few off-topic thoughts on government
« Reply #99 on: March 05, 2002, 09:26:31 am »

Damn!  That should have been Hair.  One typo and I blew the whole thing, weak as it was.
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