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Author Topic: Losing track numbers metadata after DSF conversion  (Read 4383 times)

Flea Bag

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Losing track numbers metadata after DSF conversion
« on: December 11, 2013, 03:16:06 am »

Greetings!

I'd like to convert most of my AIFF 16/44.1 music to DSF format and then convert that music back to 44.1 PCM again because it just sounds better after the double conversion. (Something about how DSD introduces a pleasant kind of HF noise).

All the tagging fields seem to be left uncorrupted except track numbers. I have a huge collection of music to be double converted and so manually re-tagging track numbers is not an option for me. Is there something about the DSF tagging convention that prevents adding track numbers? Any way to work around this?

I've used up all my trial days of JRiver MC19.0.32 trying to get around the problem. I run Windows 7. Most of my music comes from CDs ripped to PCM with EAC and imported into iTunes where they are tagged manually the way I like and then converted to AIFF to make sure the tags are embedded within the files. I then import the files into MC19 where all the tags seem to be in place before the conversion. I also used Korg Audiogate software to convert my PCM files to DSF but again, all metadata except track numbers were kept after the conversion.

Any help on a workaround? Thanks in advance.

-Philip
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InflatableMouse

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Re: Posted this in the wrong sub-forum. Please ignore.
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2013, 04:01:01 am »

I'd like to convert most of my AIFF 16/44.1 music to DSF format and then convert that music back to 44.1 PCM again because it just sounds better after the double conversion. (Something about how DSD introduces a pleasant kind of HF noise).

That high frequency noise DSD introduces will be gone when you convert back to 44.1.

The best option you have IMO is to grab a DAC that supports DSD either natively or through DoP.

If you want to continue converting, I believe you should pick a higher sampling frequency for your final destination, 88.2 would be best (doubling each 44.1 sample). I'm not sure if bit depth matters though. I don't think so  ...  ::)
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6233638

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Re: Posted this in the wrong sub-forum. Please ignore.
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2013, 04:04:35 am »

I wonder if adding a 24kHz, 48dB/Octave filter in the Parametric EQ would achieve the desired result without this conversion.
 
There's also the bit-depth simulator if you want to reduce the resolution of your high res PCM tracks too. (maybe try 20-bit)
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Flea Bag

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Re: Posted this in the wrong sub-forum. Please ignore.
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2013, 03:48:10 am »

That high frequency noise DSD introduces will be gone when you convert back to 44.1.

I'm not so sure about that... I've not tried it with MC19, but I have done it with Korg's Audiogate SW and conversion back to same bit-depth and sample rate PCM did not sound the same. I know it sounds logical that the conversion back to PCM should be bit-identical and I was actually expecting that but found otherwise.

Now that my MC19 trial is expired, I can't test if that is also the case with MC19 unless I purchase the SW. That leads me back to the original question about whether DSF file metadata allows labelling of tracking numbers. Is it offical? I've tried looking around but can't get a fully straight answer.

If you want to continue converting, I believe you should pick a higher sampling frequency for your final destination, 88.2 would be best (doubling each 44.1 sample). I'm not sure if bit depth matters though. I don't think so  ...  ::)

Thanks for the suggestion. I actually quite like 48kHz but seeing how it's not a multiple of 44.1, people tend to frown about the conversion. I know straight 44.1PCM to 48kHzPCM is mathematically not great, but once we throw inthe insane sample rate of DSD though, I don't think that will be a concern.

As for what you said about adding bit-depth; Adding bit depth shouldn't change a purely PCM signal audibly, but I wonder if it makes a difference when I use a DEQ to tune the sound a bit. I do know that 16 bit audio is inadequate if using a digital volume control that cuts bits to reduce volume. I don't use that, but I do I use a behringer DEQ2496 to attenuate some frequencies before it gets to my DAC and perhaps 24bit resolution could help there.

Anyone with input?

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Flea Bag

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Re: Posted this in the wrong sub-forum. Please ignore.
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2013, 03:50:40 am »

I wonder if adding a 24kHz, 48dB/Octave filter in the Parametric EQ would achieve the desired result without this conversion.
 
There's also the bit-depth simulator if you want to reduce the resolution of your high res PCM tracks too. (maybe try 20-bit)

Majority of my music comes from CD 16/44.1. I have probably less than 10 tracks at anything above 48kHz, but thanks for the suggestions!
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Flea Bag

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Re: Losing track numbers metadata after DSF conversion
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2013, 01:39:32 am »

Bump! Can anyone confirm that DSF files officially lack the ability to hold track numbers metadata? Track numbers disappear after I convert files from AIFF/ALAC to DSF.

Any information is appreciated. I did a search but could not find a pre-posted answer that I could understand.
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TedSmith

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Re: Losing track numbers metadata after DSF conversion
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2013, 04:20:10 am »

Bump! Can anyone confirm that DSF files officially lack the ability to hold track numbers metadata? Track numbers disappear after I convert files from AIFF/ALAC to DSF.

Any information is appreciated. I did a search but could not find a pre-posted answer that I could understand.
For DSF proper: most of my DSF files (70 out of 94) can be tagged like "normal" files in foobar2000.  I do have some DSF files from Blue Coast which get an error when I try to edit their tags and I don't know what is different about them.  When I edit the tags in foobar2000 (for the files that don't get an error) any edits show up in JRiver MC.

When I edit the tags in JRiver MC (19.0.91 in particular) the tags get updated fine in the library and I don't get errors when I try to update the tags on disk from the library (and the file time stamp changes on disk) but foobar2000 doesn't any changes.

It looks like a bug to me, but DSF files aren't exactly mainstream (yet).
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6233638

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Re: Losing track numbers metadata after DSF conversion
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2013, 06:30:53 am »

Converting to DSF does seem to retain the track numbers for me.
I still think it's crazy to convert to DSD and back though.
 
There's certainly a difference but it's not something I would call an improvement.
I'm sure that whatever it is you're hearing that you like, would be possible by using DSP rather than creating a lot of unnecessary files.

Majority of my music comes from CD 16/44.1. I have probably less than 10 tracks at anything above 48kHz, but thanks for the suggestions!
A 24kHz, 48dB/Octave filter will affect frequencies below 24kHz as well.
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Flea Bag

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Re: Losing track numbers metadata after DSF conversion
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 10:53:26 pm »

For DSF proper: most of my DSF files (70 out of 94) can be tagged like "normal" files in foobar2000.  I do have some DSF files from Blue Coast which get an error when I try to edit their tags and I don't know what is different about them.  When I edit the tags in foobar2000 (for the files that don't get an error) any edits show up in JRiver MC.

When I edit the tags in JRiver MC (19.0.91 in particular) the tags get updated fine in the library and I don't get errors when I try to update the tags on disk from the library (and the file time stamp changes on disk) but foobar2000 doesn't any changes.

It looks like a bug to me, but DSF files aren't exactly mainstream (yet).


Really appreciate your contribution to the thread! Maybe it's just a bug with my trial version of JRiver. I'm hoping DSF files will gain popularity fast. I believe it's the only DSD format with tags and with SW like JRiver, Audiogate and lots of new DSD DACs coming up, the future looks good for DSD. On the other end of the music, there are apparently quite a few recording engineers who have grown fond of DSD too.
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Flea Bag

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Re: Losing track numbers metadata after DSF conversion
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 11:04:09 pm »

Converting to DSF does seem to retain the track numbers for me.
I still think it's crazy to convert to DSD and back though.
 
There's certainly a difference but it's not something I would call an improvement.
I'm sure that whatever it is you're hearing that you like, would be possible by using DSP rather than creating a lot of unnecessary files.
A 24kHz, 48dB/Octave filter will affect frequencies below 24kHz as well.

Cool! Thanks for checking out my problem! I have a DSD recorder (Korg) but don't yet have a dedicated DSD DAC, so the only way for me to enjoy some of the benefits of DSD is to convert back to PCM for actual playback (usually listening through a Logitech Squeezebox Touch), so actually, JRiver is more useful for me as a conversion and tagging SW rather than for playback. That will change when I get a DSD DAC though... I'll try re-installing another trail version of MC19 into a different PC to see if the PCM-DSF tagging issue shows up again.

Thank you all for your inputs!
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6233638

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Re: Losing track numbers metadata after DSF conversion
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2013, 06:01:13 am »

Cool! Thanks for checking out my problem! I have a DSD recorder (Korg) but don't yet have a dedicated DSD DAC, so the only way for me to enjoy some of the benefits of DSD is to convert back to PCM for actual playback (usually listening through a Logitech Squeezebox Touch), so actually, JRiver is more useful for me as a conversion and tagging SW rather than for playback. That will change when I get a DSD DAC though... I'll try re-installing another trail version of MC19 into a different PC to see if the PCM-DSF tagging issue shows up again.
Media Center will convert DSD to PCM on-the-fly during playback.
There is no need to do an offline conversion to PCM and create new files.
 
I don't have any experience with it myself, but White Bear Media Server will let your Squeezebox show up as a DLNA renderer that Media Center can play to.
 
 
There is also an option to go from PCM to DSD on-the-fly as well (DSD Encoding) if you want to do that once you have a DSD-capable DAC.
 
I would not buy a new DAC just to have access to DSD playback - I don't think it's worthwhile at all. My DAC has native DSD support, and I still have Media Center convert to PCM during playback.
The quality of the recording/mastering is what matters. The format does not.
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Flea Bag

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Re: Losing track numbers metadata after DSF conversion
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2013, 09:40:09 am »

Media Center will convert DSD to PCM on-the-fly during playback.
There is no need to do an offline conversion to PCM and create new files.
 
I don't have any experience with it myself, but White Bear Media Server will let your Squeezebox show up as a DLNA renderer that Media Center can play to.
 
 
There is also an option to go from PCM to DSD on-the-fly as well (DSD Encoding) if you want to do that once you have a DSD-capable DAC.
 
I would not buy a new DAC just to have access to DSD playback - I don't think it's worthwhile at all. My DAC has native DSD support, and I still have Media Center convert to PCM during playback.
The quality of the recording/mastering is what matters. The format does not.


I'll try to avoid installing additional software where possible. Just another thing to go wrong or add complication to my processes. EAC, iTunes, Audiogate, Squeezebox Center and in the near future; MC19 are trouble enough for me!

My less critical listening system is actually my speaker setup which runs through an outboard DEQ before getting to my DAC. I also have a little iPod and carry my netbook with me overseas to use as a transport and all those require my music to be in PCM. My primary listening system is my headphone setup and that one doesn't need any EQing, so I can afford to play it back in DSD. So you see, I have use for both formats and would prefer to have the freedom and flexibility of having my music available in both PCM and DSD. HDD space is not an issue, even when I'm travelling!

Anyway, I am a supporter of DSD. I've been in this hobby quite a while now and DSD has always sounded good to me from the start. I've got a Korg MR1000 and a Sound Devices 744T which costs 4 times as much and the MR1000 just sounds better although the SD recorder has a lot more features and flexibility. I'm not sure how much I would have to pay for a PCM ADC to get teh same sound as my MR1000.

I also agree that quality of recording/mastering matters most, but the reality is that with all my favourite hits from the 80s and early 90s and even some recent releases, the damage has already been done and I've got no choice. DSD seems to smooth things out and add a more analogue flavour to the sound. The only redbook recordings that consistantly sound analogue enough to my ears are those made by Telarc. For the crappy recordings, I use a Non-oversampling old-style DAC with a tube buffer to make playback more consistantly pleasant.

While we're on the topic, it's also key to note that implementing DSD properly seems to be cheap and does not require as much care and expense as PCM. A few circuit designers have mentioned this as a fact. As mentioned earlier between the MR1000 and 744T, this is also what I've experienced myself. Schiit has also recently released their "Loki" DAC that does DSD natively. Just US$150. From reviews that I've read so far, it doesn't seem to be as universally praised as my MR1000's DAC section. However, criticism has also been tiny. I'm also considering a Tascam DA-3000. That's just $1000 and good value considering what it can do. Good mentions here if you want to read through the entire thread. Will probably sell the 744T and use the Tascam: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/834139-tascam-da-3000-a.html
I know DSD is certainly troublesome and expensive if mixing and mastering and all that, but as a format simply for straight recording of and or playback (like I do with my recorders), it's actually cheaper to get pleasant results from DSD than PCM. Just my opinion. There's space for both formats.
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TedSmith

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Re: Losing track numbers metadata after DSF conversion
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2013, 12:05:30 pm »

The quality of the recording/mastering is what matters. The format does not.
I like to avoid format wars, but your experience is certainly not universal.  Mastering can indeed screw up good music much more than the format, but having listened critically to dozens of DACs in many systems over the years with a few glaring exceptions DSD is just more realistic and involving to listen to for me.  Indeed I built a DSD DAC from first principles (i.e. just a passive low pass filter and no DAC chip) and it sounds great.  I should also make it clear, I have friends who can hear the difference but don't care and other friends who almost always have the opposite option from me about which sounds best.

Also to be sure I think something else is going for the original poster: converting to DSD and back to low rate PCM is just a weird way of dithering and filtering and any differences heard are much more likely to depend on the dither and filters used than anything inherent to DSD.  (Tho I believe the weird filtering is probably the effect the OP is going after there is definitely some known euphonic effects from adding high frequency "dither" when extending 16 bits to, 24 (or whatever) and this may be what the OP likes.)
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