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Author Topic: Whats the ultimate quality  (Read 3920 times)

sub-24

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Whats the ultimate quality
« on: February 26, 2002, 12:33:53 pm »

I currently RIP all at 320 mp3

I would like some opinion as to the best audio quality available in the various formats.

Size and time to RIP are not a priority.

What is lossless encoding ?

comments would be great.
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Doof

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2002, 12:38:27 pm »

Here's a post I made in another thread about this. A lot of people seemed to like it, so I saved it for times like these. Next Page


Basically, when you encode a file you're looking at a tradeoff between size and quality.
When you make an mp3 (or mpc, wma, etc), there are two steps. The first is the rip, the second is the encode/compress. Ripping is basically just taking the data on the CD and converting it to a wav file. These are the best quality as they are bit for bit a perfect duplicate of the data that's on the CD. The problem is, they're big. Typically you're looking at around 10MB for 1 minute of audio. For a 30-40 minute CD, you're looking at 300-400 MB of space used up. So obviously that's not too good. So that's where encoding/compressing comes in.

You basically have a choice with what to do with the wav files. You can either encode it using a "lossy" compression technique, or compress it with a "lossless" audio compressor. Lossy means that some data is actually thrown away to make the file smaller. The data that is thrown away is typically sound in the ranges that humans can't typically hear at all, or hear very well. The idea is that you can lose some of the data and still sound fairly close to the original CD. Lossless means that no data is discarded. The resulting file is still a bit for bit perfect copy of the CD. But they result in file sizes that aren't as small as the lossy encoders.

MP3 & WMA are lossy. But even there, there's degrees of "lossiness". An mp3 encoded at 64kbps is going to be half the size of an mp3 enocded at 128kbps, but it's not going to sound as good. Mp3's typically are around 1MB per minute. But again, that depends on the bitrate they were enocded at.

The bitrate is basically how many bits are used to encode each second of the file. So a 128kbps file uses 128 kilobits per second. So it's capable of reproducing a sound that's closer to the original than a file that is only using 64 kilobits per second. So let's say we have a 5 minute 128kbps song. That's 300 seconds. 300 * 128 = 38400 bits. Since there are 8 bits in a byte, then 38400 / 8 = 4800 bytes or a little over 4.5 MB. The same song in 64kbps would be 300 * 64 = 19200 / 8 = 2400 bytes or a little less than 2.5 MB.

WMA claims to sound just as good as MP3 but at half the bitrate. So a 64kbps WMA file supposedly sounds just as good as a 128kbps MP3, but I personally don't think that's true.

APE is a lossless compressor. For me, it tends to average around half the size of a wav file. So if a track on a CD ripped out to a 40MB wav file, then it'll wind up somewhere around 20MB as an APE file. It's still not the easiest thing to store when you have a lot of CD's to rip, but they are a perfect copy of the original, whereas MP3's and WMA's lose quality.


Which one should you use? That's entirely up to you. It depends on how high quality is compared to space restrictions on your list of priorities. One thing to keep in mind though, that once you encode to a lossy format, there's no getting that lost data back. So if you encode everything as 128kbps MP3's and then you decide you want to use 64kbps MP3's on your handheld player, you have to convert from that file that's already lost data.

So rather than creating a 64kbps mp3 from the original best-quality CD, you're creating a 64kbps already lost a lot of quality mp3. And the results aren't that good. They might be satisfactory, though.

As for which formats work for which players, it's hard to say. Currently, I think the only supported formats are mp3 and wma. But a lot of players are what they call "flash upgradeable" which means you can later download an update that upgrades the player so it can support other formats. With the price of portable flash media, I doubt we'll see any players supporting APE, but they may someday support some of the other lossy formats.

The good thing about APE though, is that, since it's a perfect copy of the CD, you can convert it down to whatever bitrate mp3 or wma you want, and it'll be the same as if you originally ripped the CD to those bitrates/formats instead of from an already crappy mp3 like I mentioned above.

Hope this answers some of your questions, and I hope it's not too "techie". Feel free to ask questions though. That's why this place is so great.
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Matt

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2002, 12:40:01 pm »

Lossless is the ultimate in quality, because the output is bit identical to the original.  The files are more like 700 - 900 kpbs though.

If that takes too much space, or you just don't mind a little quality hit, than mp3 is probably a good choice.

Take care.

-Matt

( some lossless info: http://www.monkeysaudio.com )
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Michael Horton

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2002, 12:45:00 pm »

exactly Doof

Whats the ultimate quality?

1. the cd
2. tie: wav or lossless compression eg ape)
3. lossy compression: mp3, wma, ogg, amd mpc
   adherents of each encoder swear by their particular choice--the mpc lot perhaps the most adamently
  A. higher bitrates (eg in mp3 256 or 320) and high quality--the  vast majority of people can't distinguish this from the original source
  B. lower bitrates (eg 160 or lower in mp3--you may not notice the quality loss, unless you play these files alongside any of the above formats

one reporter's opinion
Michael
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sub-24

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2002, 12:45:22 pm »

I may rip a few to APE to see what they are like.

The problem i have is ive just started ripping all my Vinyl and i dont want to discover some new encoder next month that means i will have to do it all again.

Is APE selectable to sample rate or does is merely compress the .wav
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Doof

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2002, 12:48:32 pm »

It only compresses the wave.

If you were to then decompress the APE back to WAV, it would be exactly the same as if you left it as WAV from the beginning. For that reason, APE is the ultimate, because you can later decide you want to use a different format, and you can work from a perfect copy of the original source.
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Bryan

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2002, 12:50:48 pm »

APE rips to whatever bitrate is necessary to capture the bits.  Think of it as "dynamic ripping"..   Once you rip to APE you can always convert later to any other format you wish.   Many people use APE (or Monkey's Audio) to archive their music so it seems like a good choice for your albums.  For more information check out http://www.monkeysaudio.com

Bryan
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sub-24

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2002, 12:52:40 pm »

Doof. So if i want to record Vinyl to the Ulimate Q

Can i rip to .wav at the highest sample rate and bit depth - dont know what is supported. And then convert to APE.
Or does APE only support 16/44k
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Michael Horton

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2002, 01:02:43 pm »

Mikeh

i don't know the answer to your last question, but


>>>>>>>>>>>>>i dont want to discover some new encoder next month that means i will have to do it all again.

besides better sound quality than loosy encoders, and having files half the size of wav's, that is precisely the reason to use ape, but

remember--space may not seem like an issue, but the files add up when you get in to the thousands

Michael
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Scronch

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2002, 01:07:56 pm »

I know some people prefer vinyl to CD's (the same way many people prefer older "slower" amps to today's "bright" amps), but I doubt that bit-perfect reproduction is necessary when capturing a signal from vinyl.  My guess is that the source has enough noise in it that a high-bitrate mp3 will be just as good as a lossless format.  You'll just have to try a few.

Scronch
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sub-24

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2002, 01:10:44 pm »

I,m getting towards 200Gd by the time i finish the Vinyl.

But 3 hard disks takes up a lot less space than 500 albums. |PLS| 1000 Cd's

I'll try some APE stuff at the weekend and play around.

If ive go enought space i may keep my Vinyl on APE and everything else on mp3/32
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zevele1

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2002, 01:13:19 pm »

If you do not mind about size ,APE is THE FORMAT
As someone with his computer plug to a very good stereo and playing it at loud up to very lound level,here few things about mp3
After more 192kps ,i ,and all the people i know ,cannot say the difference.The only raison to use mp3 320 is if you get some cds from a friend and do not have time to burn them.In this case,if,latter, you burn from a 320mp3,you will have a better cdredbook,than from a 192kps.
And even this,i am not sure about,after many try
If you go"downhill" with format,i do strongly believe  that a 64kps mp3 sounds much more less good that half the 128kp mp3 .I will say that a 128kp is 3 times better than a 64kp
You may like Windows format at the higher rate.Windows format a 65 have the kind of "speakers in the bathroom' effect
If you play music on the "all wild plastic speakers from your computer" or on any kind of "home cinema speakers for computer"-and there is some very good ones-,i do not think that you need more than mp3 128,maxi 192
I had a try to mp3pro,quitte good but a little weak on the bass side
The only value of my opinion is only hours and hours  of try and many,many boxes of blank cds
who did the "cdwritter/bin" trip
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Matt

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2002, 01:15:04 pm »

Scronch is right -- it probably doesn't really make sense to use lossless encoding on an analog source like Vinyl.  About 1/2 (or more) of the resulting APE file will simply be uncompressible noise.

CD's are a whole different story...

Take care.

-Matt
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zevele1

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2002, 01:18:57 pm »

MHORTON
The ULTIMATE quality is a virgin 180 grammes vinyl fron analogue tapes on a few thousand $$$$$$ stereo.From it ,it is ONLY downhill

Listening to Jethro Tull -Stand up  180 grs virgin vinyl at level 7
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sub-24

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2002, 01:26:36 pm »

Zev - I agree

I play MJ via Digital out to standalone Audio DAC then to Valve amp and Floorstanders . Musical Technology.

Digital Music will never be as good as the pure source but the extra features of MJ just make it so easy to create playlists etc that music just never sounded so good to me.

Its hard to get up when youve fallen asleep to change the side of the album.

I can still hear it when i'm asleep i only wake up when it stops.
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Michael Horton

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2002, 01:36:02 pm »

zevele1

>>>>>>>>>ULTIMATE quality is a virgin 180 grammes vinyl fron analogue tapes on a few thousand $$$$$$ stereo.

perhaps. or perhaps it is that pain medication you're taking. I was so bummed out over your bum-knee story that I had to have a couple of beers with lunch today

hey, and where do those "original master recording" CDs--you know, the expensive Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab recordings--where do they fit in when it comes to sound quality?

zevele1--so. apparently, I like "no depression" (UT, son volt, wilco, whiskeytown) but not folksy, singer-songwriters (TVZ, Richard Buckner, John Hiatt, Steve Earle, et al)

Mikeh -- hard drives fail--don't give up those records, but you can box 'em up and get 'em out of the way. you won't have to worry about re-ripping if you use ape

re jethro tull: i read an interview once where the members of Steeleye Span claimed JT to be a major influence on their work. I like Steeleye Span. ANd I like flutes--they'ye pleasant to listen to.

Michael
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sub-24

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2002, 01:42:01 pm »

Enough said

This weekend i'm going APE.

Also i will never get rid of the Vinyl - once ive finished these ive got to start on the 78's
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zevele1

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2002, 02:38:00 pm »

miheh
You are rigth,vinyl just do not stand if you think about how conveinent is a computer and MediaJukebox
But you can keep both .Let say hamburgers[mp3] for lunch and fine meal[vinyl] in the evening
Anyway,let me know  witch lps you plan to get ride off.You may do some deal.ONLY MINT recordsc and sleeves
zevele1@netscape.net
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zevele1

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2002, 03:07:37 pm »

Mhorton
Funny you had beer for lunch when at the same time i have very early  wednesday morning glass of wine!!!
Very expansive  gold or master cds are not bad.But a good vinyl takes you in his harms,a cd send you noise in the face.Kind of Freud trauma you may say
I have a soft spot for Jethro Tull,but will not say it is  that great
You will be able to listen to T.V.Z. as soon as my musico1 play list is ready.After it ,i would like to read you
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Michael Horton

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2002, 03:21:15 pm »

zevele1

will you also be zevele1 on music01?

I'm looking forward to listening . . .
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zevele1

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2002, 04:15:33 pm »

If i still have the email with my password,yes
I do not use many names and codes as many do.............................
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hvy duty

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2002, 04:17:05 pm »

I have many files 128 unless you have a 2,000 dollar setup for your playback you are not going to notice the diffence between 128 and 320 if you just want to here music 128 is fine if you are a connoisseur(not wine but music) then 320 would be the best bet. Most car CD players will play the same 128 or 320 and you cannot tell the diffence. I have some 64,s that play really good but my hearing is not what it used to be. It is all in the eye of the beholder
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Darwyn

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2002, 11:11:58 pm »

Fraunhofer may not have perfected the MP3 coder by 1996, but they did have one thing correct about the bitrate. 128 kbps is the breaking point where the gained quality is not longer equal to size increase. Where nearly defect free reproduction of 20 to 20,000 hertz can be made. I will agree that higher bitrates do sound marginally better, but adding 50% to the file size for 2% clearer audio?!! Pointless. Try firing up some old downloaded MP3s and play "Guess the bitrate." You will be amazed how hard it is to tell anything from 128 to 320 apart without running ABX or hardcore testing comparisons.

I am biased toward APE, MPC (standard), and ordinary MP3 (128) as my choice of formats in proper order.

So, "Whats the ultimate quality" --- We may never know.
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Doof

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2002, 04:40:45 am »

I believe they call that "The Law of Diminishing Returns". Next Page
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Michael Horton

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2002, 07:55:20 am »

The Law of Diminishing Returns, I think,  varies based upon many factors, including the type of music being encoded and the hearing ability of the listener. One time I made a few cds for a road trip that  consisted of mixed quality mp3s 112-320 kbs as the original source. The styles of music were consistent on each CD: oldies on 1 or 2, jangle pop/Paisley Underground on a few, and no depression/alt country-rock on one. The differences in the quality of the sound produced due to the bitrate were only  apparent on the jangle pop/Paisley Underground CDs, but it was annoying enough that we stopped listening to them, and my wife made me promise to never make her another cd from mp3s (later, she got a rio volt for the gym, and now she wants mp3 cds!). The audio systems in our cars are superior to the one at home, so that might have made a difference. Her hearing is significantly better than mine, and in the couple of "blind taste tests" thet we've done, she can distinguish between ape and lossy (wma or mp3--regardless of bit depth) with 100% accuracy with the type of music to which we generally listen. And this is with a computer system and Klipsch 5.1 speakers. I'd hate to try a lossy format on a quality stereo system--I'd no doubt wind up divorced. My wife is passionate about music and the quality of the listening experience, but too cheap to let me buy a good stereo. So ape, and a couple of extra hard drives, is working out well for us.
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Xstatic

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2002, 08:03:51 am »

MHorton,

try playing her a mpc Xtremeencoded file...

Having quite good ears, and having "passed" several ABX-tests with comparisons between mpc, ogg, mp3 - I have yet
to manage to hear the difference between the wav- and mpc xtreme encoded file...

btw - if you don't know the program ABX, it is so cool to perform blind tests with this one.
Your wife would probably love it
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Michael Horton

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2002, 08:13:09 am »

I plan to test mpc--its fans are passionate and vocal about it and that says something to me

so far, though, I've been a tad lazy, and haven't bothered to try to figure out where to get the encoder, what settings to use, and how to make it work with MJ

I'm am going to do this though

thank's for the advice
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zevele1

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2002, 08:23:20 am »

It is ok to play mp3 on a good stereo system.I mean,if you are coming to see me and i play mp3,you will not say"there is something wrong with your stereo today".You will not take notice
But if i play the same song from  the cd after the mp3,you will take notice
Here i just did a test.Thin White Rope-mp3 128kps from Emusic=ok. Same song from the cd=much better and as if you put the level two marks louder.Same song from the vinyl lp=vroum,you have to down the volume
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Xstatic

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2002, 08:34:14 am »

Here some tips for the lazy one..

MPC Input plugin
Get the cool beta input mpc plugin, especially designed for MJ v.8 here: (Trelane, the guy who is writing it, is
the coolest, most kind and efficient guy)

http://www.naivesoftware.com


Encoder
Get the latest and fastest mpc encoder here:

http://www.uni-jena.de/~pfk/mpp/#encoder-binaries

Choose 0.90s.


Now you got what you need.
In MJ, go to Options, Encoding, choose External encoder, choose the position of the unzipped o.90s encoder.
Then in the second line, below "Exe path", type: --xtreme %IN %OUT
That setting will make the encoder encode in the xtreme-setting. Basically there are three settings:
Standard- type: "--verbose %IN %OUT"
Xtreme-type:as above
Insane-type: "--insane %IN %OUT"

Then in MJ, go to Settings, choose Pluginmanager, choose Add plugin, and select the mpc plugin that you downloaded from naivesoftware's page.
When you have installed this input plugin, you should see it in the list in plugin manager under Input plugins.
Select then this mpc plugin and choose "configure".
Usually the default settings here are as they should be - but at least make sure that under Replaygain settings, that the Clipprotect is off, and that equalising is checked for Musepack and not Winamp.

Now you are set to go, both in encoding and playing mpc files.

In order to check the ABX program, that you can use to perform proper blind tests with, start here:

http://www.pcabx.com/training/index.htm


enjoy
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Michael Horton

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2002, 09:29:07 am »

thank you. thank you. thank you.

this should be in the faq (if not there already)

>>>>Then in the second line, below "Exe path", type: --xtreme %IN %OUT
Q: MJ had this setting "%IN %OUT -v" already, and I added "--xtreme" so that it ended up --xtreme %In %OUT -v

keep or lose the -v setting?
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Xstatic

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2002, 09:38:58 am »

loose the -v in the end.

when you try to encode you will see a dos-prompt appearing, and there it should among other things
say that it is encoding in xtreme setting.

then you can always play around with the other settings.
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Michael Horton

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RE:Whats the ultimate quality
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2002, 09:49:33 am »

looked at, but haven't yet done anything yet with ABX

terribly busy right this minute cleaning the house to get ready for the housekeeper (it's too embarrassing to have her find how I really live between her visits when the wife is away)

first impression: recorded a few songs in mpc--mpc at extreme sounds no different to me than mp3 320 kbs at hight quality, but is slightly less than 2/3 the size

I'll have my wife test it out when she get's back in town

in the meantime, I continue to read up on it and play with the settings
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