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[jmone]

We have a large backyard and teenagers growing up who want to have parties with lots of noise (well... music to them).  At first I was trying to work out how to integrate another AVR or PowerAmp into my existing home setup and run it as a zone ... but ended up going "Pro Audio".  Here is the list of gear I have coming for this build:
- Behringer X1222USB Mixer : Lots of inputs for Audio Devices, Mics, Instuments... even has a "Voice Cancellation" feature for "instant-karaoke", which will mix then feed the signal out to a
- Behringer B1800D-PRO Active Sub : 18" Sub with built in stereo cross overs that then go out to a
- Behringer iNUKE 6000DSP : This is a 2ch amp capable of driving low ohm loads with lots of power + inbuilt DSP you can program for LF cross overs that will then drive two pairs (in parallel)
- Axiom M3 Outdoor Speakers which I already own and each pair will face a different part of the yard.

I've also got a bunch of options to feed content to the Mixer in addition to wired inputs, including:
- Pair of Wireless Mics
- Bluetooth to Audio out converted (so a guest could just connect their BT phone etc to the setup)
- JRiver ID (so I could push over DLNA from MC over WiFi)
- I also have an wired Ethernet port if I need it.

It will be fun putting it all together and I'm sure the Neighbours will be impressed!  As part of this will be working the best way of integrating it with the home AVR as an input as well so the same source plays everywhere.

As Glynor says, "if there are no pictures it did not happen" so I'll take some snaps as it all comes together.

edit: plus 100m of 10AWG speaker cable, Speakon connectors and XLR leads (neither of which I've used before so wiring could be fun for a newbie!)

[jmone]

One of the reasons I went this way was I wanted the ability to drive the two pairs of the Axioms Outside speakers and they are max 175w with a nominal 8ohm load each.  If I ran them in two in parallel I'd then need something stable at 4ohms up to 350w per channel.  The 6000 is apparently stable down to 2ohms with plenty of power, and with the Active Sub and the DSP in the 6000 I can select my own cross over to keep the base to the sub.

[6233638]

Looking forward to seeing this come together. Your intercom build is very interesting.

[jmone]

Yeah this stuff is fun    

What have not figured out is how to bridge the existing Home Audio AVR to the new outside mixer.  The distance between the two would be 30m line of sight with a couple of walls in the way and say a 50m cable run.  

I'd like to just run a "virtual 2ch RCA cables" between the two, so the outside could be an input to the inside AVR or vice versa.  Options could include:
- RCA Wireless Transmitters:  Not sure those cheap RCA wireless transmitters are any good especially over that range.
- Try to pull a pair of 50m unbalanced RCA Cable:  Not sure such a long run is good with the signal loss and noise
- Try to pull a 50m a ? ? ? Cable with RCA Converters: Do they exist and work
- Try to use the existing Ethernet Network Cable between the two (preferably over the network not just as a cable)
- Use the USB port on the Mixer somehow
- Some other tech....

Any ideas on what works reliably?
Thanks
Nathan

[Scolex]

Look like a very nice setup. I have to ask though why did you go so overkill with the amp?
3100x2 into 4ohms is WAY too much power for your Axiom speakers.
Are you planning to add more speakers? Another 2 pairs of Axioms would work well if wired in a series parallel scheme to give you a 8ohm nominal load. Even then it would be more power than they are rated for (400w per).

[jmone]

Is there such a thing as too much power?  

Seriously, the quoted 3100w is really 2200 WRMS @4ohms / 1100 WRMS @8ohms ... still heaps but this is all peak power anyway and apparently the continuous power ratting is around 750 per channel @8ohms per channel.  I did look at the next model down (the 3000) but it has half the power and was not much cheaper (so a lot less head room especially if adding more or bigger speakers).  I'd rather have an amp idling along.  Also, this setup lets you limit the output so some teenager, can not (easily) push the Vol to 11 and blow the speakers.... and as the old saying goes, "if it breaks, it needed replacing anyway!"

I do have a third set of speakers for a covered deck area ( Axiom M22 that are 200w@8ohm that I may run off this amp but think I'll still use the Yami 3000 to drive as Zone 2 due to how the cable runs would work.  My thinking was as you suggested, that if I use the Berhinger instead to run in series/parallel and with the 3 I'd be around max 800w @ 6ohm nominal per channel.  Still easy for the 6000 but getting close for the 3000.

I also don't know if the Axioms are big enough to drive the SPL along in such a large space, hence the add of a big powered sub.... though  I may at some point have to go with Pro Audio speakers if the Axioms are not up to the job...

We shall see.

Edit - it will be interesting to see if I trip the fuse on my 230v@10a (2400w) non dedicated circuit!

[Scolex]

You might find this site interesting if you decide to go pro and don't mind a DIY project.

[jmone]

Thanks.... but you are now your channelling Matt (with his home built sub thread)!  After all the grief I gave him on this I'd never dare build my own 

[Zhillsguy]

- Try to pull a 50m a ? ? ? Cable with RCA Converters: Do they exist and work
- Try to use the existing Ethernet Network Cable between the two (preferably over the network not just as a cable)
- Use the USB port on the Mixer somehow
- Some other tech....

Any ideas on what works reliably?
Thanks
Nathan

Although I haven't tried it, probably one option would be a pair of audio baluns. Likely a pair with good audio quality would be quite pricey.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/515607-REG/Intelix_AVO_A2_F_AVO_A2_F_Cat_5_Stereo_Audio.html

[jmone]

Thanks - I had looked at these baluns and they could be an option but I think you need a dedicated Cat 5 run between them (eg you can not run them over your existing NW)...or am I wrong on this?  Also I think you would need a 2xpairs if you want to be able to have both an In and an Out each way.

[Zhillsguy]

I believe a dedicated run is required. They do make a 4 channel that would work for input/output:

http://www.parts-express.com/intelix-avo-a4-4-mono-or-2-stereo-audio-balun--183-605?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla

[csimon]

Here is the list of gear I have coming for this build....

Blimey.

[jmone]

Gear has arrived - testing it out prior to working out where to put it all.  Yup I can confirm - way too much power - running both the amp and the sub at about 25%

[jmone]

I've got it all hooked and and it is working well so far but I need some advice on how to set the max power levels for the Amp so as not to blow the Axioms yet have a max SPL from them.

So far I slowly turned up the power keeping an eye / ear on the Axioms (front covers off) and got a bit scared as I don't know at what point bad stuff permanently happens. At one point I heard some harshness / buzzing from one of the tweakers in a particular passage of music so I then turned it down.

Thanks
Nathan

(cross posted on Axiom Boards as well)

[mwillems]

I've got it all hooked and and it is working well so far but I need some advice on how to set the max power levels for the Amp so as not to blow the Axioms yet have a max SPL from them.

So far I slowly turned up the power keeping an eye / ear on the Axioms (front covers off) and got a bit scared as I don't know at what point bad stuff permanently happens. At one point I heard some harshness / buzzing from one of the tweakers in a particular passage of music so I then turned it down.

Thanks
Nathan

(cross posted on Axiom Boards as well)

Do you have an SPL meter?  Those axiom speakers (according to their website) have an 88dB 1 watt/ 1 meter sensitivity outdoors, and they claim to be able to accommodate 175 watts.  That means if you ran 0dBFS pink noise into the speakers at max rated power, an SPL meter at 1 meter in front of them should register about 110dB.  Similarly, if you ran JRiver's pink noise calibration (which is -20dBFS), you'd know you found the max power setting when the meter read 90dB at one meter.

But max rated power is not a good goal (and I wouldn't recommend running them that loud even for a test).  Most speakers will experience power compression and/or heat related issues if continuously operated anywhere near their max rated power, and sometimes the max ratings are a little exaggerated, meaning that one can do damage running them up to the max.  

I'm pretty risk averse, so if it were I, I would cap the power where the SPL meter shows 100dB at 1 meter with a 0dBFS pink noise signal or 80dB with a -20dBFS pink noise signal (like the one in JRiver).  That setting would be very unlikely to test the thermal limits of the speakers if their ratings are correct.  But that's a very conservative setting; you might be comfortable running them up louder, but if you set your max above 105dB I'd encourage you to keep an eye on them.

Just remember the golden rule: a 3dB increase is double the power and a 10 dB increase is ten times the power.

[jmone]

Thanks - I do have an SPL metre so I'll give that a go.  It's an odd situation (for me), it is normally the amp starts clipping from lack of power not the other way around.

[jmone]

Excellent - dialled them in with the test tones and reduced the power a bit from when I was doing it by ear/sight alone. 

FYI - a response from the cross post at Axiom agreed with your analysis though did say the Axioms are conservative so I've gone with a 30% setting on the Amp which gives me around 90dB @1m (+/- 2db pending on the speaker) using MC's "narrow-band pink noise at -20dBFS" mode when both the channel and main mix are at their max (+10) .  Playback on a couple of pop tracks with these settings saw peak levels just under 110dB @1m with the mixer's just touching the clip indicator (which according to the 6000DSP manual is what you want). 

It sounded clear and loud and should prevent the teenagers from over driving anything.... though I'm now a bit deaf in the left ear! 

Thanks for your help!
Nathan

[Scolex]

Here is an alternate way of setting an amplifier using a digital volt meter (DVM).
Start out by setting the amplifier gain to the minimum setting and your head unit volume to about 80%.
Set the DVM to AC connect the leads across the speaker terminals and raise the gain until you reach a
predetermined voltage while playing a 0dBFS sine wave (50-60Hz for sub, 1KHz for full range).
To find the voltage you take rated RMS x nominal impedance and then find the square root of that number.

Examples:
175w x 8Ω = 1400 the square root of 1400 is 37.42Vac
350w x 4Ω = 1400 the square root of 1400 is 37.42Vac (added for your parallel wiring scheme)
If you are puzzled by the fact that the voltage is the same between the 2 examples I can explain.

This method is typically used to reach the rated power of the amplifier but works equally well for setting output power
based on what the connected speaker is rated at to prevent voice coil overheating or any other undesirables.

[jmone]

Thanks Sean.  I think I'm all set using MC's test tone and the SPL meter I had.  I'm not sure I even have a DVM (I have an old radio shack volt meter somewhere).  
Nathan.

PS - My son thinks it is great and I got to hear him "lay some rap" over the top of some song.  He seemed pleased I had no idea!  Next phase is to respray a set of the speakers to match the fascias, mount and run the cables....  I still have the nagging feeling I'll be up for new speakers at some point!

PSS - Just ordered the Gefen AUD-1000 to connect the mixer to the home AVR over a Cat-5e run.

[astromo]

PS - My son thinks it is great and I got to hear him "lay some rap" over the top of some song.  He seemed pleased I had no idea!  Next phase is to respray a set of the speakers to match the fascias, mount and run the cables....  I still have the nagging feeling I'll be up for new speakers at some point!

So, I'm guessing that MC Jmone Jr is in da house!

[mwillems]

Excellent - dialled them in with the test tones and reduced the power a bit from when I was doing it by ear/sight alone. 

FYI - a response from the cross post at Axiom agreed with your analysis though did say the Axioms are conservative so I've gone with a 30% setting on the Amp which gives me around 90dB @1m (+/- 2db pending on the speaker) using MC's "narrow-band pink noise at -20dBFS" mode when both the channel and main mix are at their max (+10) .  Playback on a couple of pop tracks with these settings saw peak levels just under 110dB @1m with the mixer's just touching the clip indicator (which according to the 6000DSP manual is what you want). 

It sounded clear and loud and should prevent the teenagers from over driving anything.... though I'm now a bit deaf in the left ear! 

Thanks for your help!
Nathan

Sounds like you got it dialed in where you want it, and everybody's having a good time 

[mojave]

I've got it all hooked and and it is working well so far but I need some advice on how to set the max power levels for the Amp so as not to blow the Axioms yet have a max SPL from them.

I don't know if you've done this yet, but on the iNuke DSP amps you need to set the Peak Limiter on the Configuration tab so as to limit the maximum power levels. You need to put in your speaker's load for it to work properly.

[jmone]

Thanks - I've not yet looked at the DSP at all and also need to understand how the cross overs also worth with the sub.  I'm just finishing putting the gear in the final locations and running wire etc.  My Dual Stereo over Cat 5 has arrived in Syd so I sould get it early next week.

Lots of fun things to do!

[jmone]

Given the equipment is tucked away, I got one of these Belkin Remote Power Boards that I was going to use to turn everything on/off with the Belkin Remote Control for the power board.

The only problem is that when I switch it on or off the speakers "boom" like a power transient runs through them.  Sounds BAD.  Also it seems to trip some sort of protection in the Amp as sub runs but the speakers don't till I power down and start up manually not using the Belkin.  The "odd" thing is that there are many threads recommending these devices. 

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Nathan

[mwillems]

Given the equipment is tucked away, I got one of these Belkin Remote Power Boards that I was going to use to turn everything on/off with the Belkin Remote Control for the power board.

The only problem is that when I switch it on or off the speakers "boom" like a power transient runs through them.  Sounds BAD.  Also it seems to trip some sort of protection in the Amp as sub runs but the speakers don't till I power down and start up manually not using the Belkin.  The "odd" thing is that there are many threads recommending these devices.  

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Nathan

I use one of the Belkin things myself, but my amps have a soft start so there's no transient on turn on. My DAC does give a pop when turned off though which can be a little startling, but isn't dangerously loud.  Some equipment isn't designed to be "turned off" by having power abruptly disconnected, or vice versa.  You've also got some really high powered equipment.

Depending on your comfort level (and how loud the boom is), you might want to trouble shoot.  Depending on which item in the chain is causing the transient you may have options.  If the boom doesn't sound scarily loud, I'd try to identify who the culprit is.  If you disconnect the inputs from the amps do they still boom on turn on?  If not, then it's something farther back (like the mixer) and you're in luck (you can just use some input attenuators to kill the transient).  

If the amps still boom with no inputs connected when turning on and off, you may need to rig up some kind of soft start of your own for them, or explore a different kind of power switch.  You might also want to explore the peak limiter mojave mentioned above (it might or might not engage quickly enough, but is worth a look).

[jmone]

Mmmm thanks - did some testing isolating bits....

I think I could be out of luck using the Belkin in general. 

From testing what I've seen is the 6000DSP will stay in protect mode if you power it up from the Belkin (the led around the gain knobs stay red) when the 6000DSP power button is on.  If you just use the power button, the normal behaviour is the led's turn from Red to Orange after a couple of seconds after power up.  I even tried with no input or speakers connected at all.  This is odd as other forums have said they use this or a 12v relay to do similar.

Also the transient happens with no feed to the amp, but unless I can "fix" the above issue it is pointless tracking this one down anyway.

[jmone]

Nope - my own fault.  The Belkin and 6000 work fine.... you just have to leave 20sec or so between power cycles (must be letting the caps power down some of the circuitry).

Now back to working out how to stop or reduce the boom/crack on power up and down.  Time to pull out the laptop and see what that DSP can do.

[mwillems]

Nope - my own fault.  The Belkin and 6000 work fine.... you just have to leave 20sec or so between power cycles (must be letting the caps power down some of the circuitry).

Now back to working out how to stop or reduce the boom/crack on power up and down.  Time to pull out the laptop and see what that DSP can do.

Hopefully the DSP will help.  Out of curiosity, it doesn't boom or crack when turned on/off without the Belkin?

It sounds like the amp is causing the boom, which means your choices are basically: 1) build a soft start for the amp or 2) put some resistance in series between your speakers and your amp (which is undesirable for a lot of reasons but would soften the crack).

[jmone]

I've worked out how to reduce it to no Pop/Boom on Start (with the Belkin) and just a short crackle on Off.  It must be how the caps dump power. 

Power Up : If I wait for 20+sec before powering up - all good, no Pop/Boom and the amp does not go into protect mode
Power Down : Turn off mixer / input.  Wait 20sec before powering down - small crackle

 

Thanks for the ideas!
Nathan

[jmone]

It is now "roughed in"!
- Sub and Amp are under the Deck.  Interestingly it turns the deck area into one big sub but feedback is less on an issue
- Mixer and source are on the Deck.  For now the source is either stuff you can plug in to the mixer directly or I added one of those cheap BT Audio adapters.  It seems to work OK, but the kids play content from YouTube and the quality is ..... poor (but they don't seem to care).  I also dusted of the JRiver ID but got errors trying to play to it.

EDIT:  I've resprayed the enclosures of the "Reddish" speakers to match the facia and they, and the existing Off White ones blend in well (to my Wife's surprise!)

A bit more cable mgt to tidy up and make Wife Friendly and we should be good for the upcoming 16th and 18th B'Days!

[jmone]

Oh... and my Daughter has already been "face booked" from a kid down the road asking what the Karaoke is all about.   

[jmone]

I don't know if you've done this yet, but on the iNuke DSP amps you need to set the Peak Limiter on the Configuration tab so as to limit the maximum power levels. You need to put in your speaker's load for it to work properly.

OK, I've got the SW loaded on the lappy but some Q's (if you know).  So I'm running two pair of nominal 175w @ 8ohm speakers in parallel so they are 350w @ 4Ohm on each channel.  I have three options in the 6000DSP:
1a) Set as Stereo and set for 350w (see pic)... I "think" this is the correct settings and that the displayed 350w (ish) would be per channel not for both combined, or
1b) Set as Stereo and set for 700w if it is combined for both channels
2) Set as Dual mono and set for 350w (see pic).  If I use this one I'd then have to apply any other changes equally on both.

Thanks
Nathan

[jmone]

While I don't have the charts for these outside speakers, they have the following specs (though I'm note sure what they really mean!)

Freq Resp +/-3dB: 60 - 22 kHz
Freq Resp +3dB/-9dB: 50 - 22 kHz

Under the Filter/Cross over options, I am able to set both "Type" and "Slope" but I'd only be guessing what may be appropriate settings.  Any suggestions as I'm keen to keep LFE to the active sub (which also has the choice of two outputs to this amp, a full range pass through or an output "processed through 100Hz high-pass filter for use with mid and high frequency satellite speakers).

So I seem to be able to:
- Use the Amps 100hz slope and do nothing in the 6000DSP settings or
- Use the Amps Pass

So the aim would be to have the highest SPL available without blowing speakers but I'd still like to use the full usable range of both the speakers and sub.

I'm "guessing" that I'd want to use the full range out of the sub, then use one of the High Pass Filters (? on type and slope) in the 6000DSP from say ?? Level.  I also presume I don't net to set a Low Pass Filter?

In my ignorance, I was thinking something like the attached pic.

Thanks
Nathan

[jmone]

Finally Q on the 6000DSP settings, I presume for now I don't care to stuff with the Parametric or Dynamic EQ settings?
Thanks for any advice
Nathan

[Scolex]

This one
1a) Set as Stereo and set for 350w (see pic)... I "think" this is the correct settings and that the displayed 350w (ish) would be per channel not for both combined

If you look at your pictures you will notice they both a have a max peak of -5.7dBfs and 336.4 watts, with that in mind when using stereo mode the value given for wattage is per channel.

The dual mono would IMO only be used for either a sub or center channel unless you were using more than 1 amp and each is receiving a separate channel.

Very nice interface for setting things up I want one but I am sure it would not make the list of acceptable purchases right now since my
fiancee already thinks I have to much invested in electronics.

As far as crossover goes I would use the full range output (thru) of the sub and use it's adjustable high filter set to 80Hz to start and then set the high pass x-over in the control panel to 120Hz at 12db that should give you a good starting point.

[jmone]

Yup - it is pretty cool (you could always trade in the fiancée on one though at US$600 they are much cheaper!) but I'm clueless!  Is this what you mean?
Thanks
Nathan

[jmone]

I think this is the frequency chart for the speakers.

Should the DSP curve match this (approx)?

[jmone]

eg

[jmone]

playing around, these curves look similar...

[Scolex]

This is just my personal philosophy when setting a x-over for a *full range* speaker.
I take the -3dB point and set the x-over 1 octave higher and use a 12dB slope or 1/2 octave high and 24dB slope.
If need be I tweak the freq and/or slope to smooth the transition and make the x-over transparent.
If I get any directional information from the sub I move the freq down and/or go to a steeper slope.

Found this image

And decided to merge it with yours for kicks. Yes I did resize/skew the image to match the scale and then bumped the sub up to simulate gain matching.

[jmone]

Got the Gefen AUD-1000 to connect the mixer to NUC/PJ setup just fine.  

I've also purchased one of these 4m Front/Rear projection screens we can string up on the back deck.  All working pretty good.... too good... got a note from a neighbour asking we don't amp up the Karaoke, apparently the kids don't sound too good!  

Forgot to grab a pic when the screen was up.