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[Djeayzonne]

Hello, I have just started using JRiver, but I also just purchased a Dragonfly DAC to use with my Shure 535 IEMs.
Well, the sound from the Dragonfly overemphasizes treble and has made bass anemic, which is kind of the opposite of the sound signature of the 535, hence why I bought them.

Playing around with the DSP studio, though, I have gotten to sound pretty much the way I want it to. The only problem is that during a quiet passage before a drop back to the demanding material or changes between tracks, the first bass hit has a lot of distortion before the limiter kicks in.

I want to keep the sound signature the way it is, but figure out how to get rid of this first distortion hit. Once the limiter kicks in, it is really sweet. If the recording/encoding is quality, I can really turn up the volume, which I have never been able to do with these Shures before having things EQ'd the way I like.

Here are screenshots of audio path and so on.

[Djeayzonne]

OK, maybe first someone has to tell me how to share images.

[MrC]

Post them on a service like Photobuck or  imgur, and paste the link here, surrounded by image tags (2nd icon, 2nd row in the editor above when you post a reply).

[Vincent Kars]

The screenshots are missing indeed but I assume you boost the bass.
Hence when it gets loud you get clipping.
Try it the other way round, leave the bass at 0 and lower the rest

[Djeayzonne]

Vinc, I have done both.
Lowering the rest just isn't doing it enough.

Anyway, here is a link to the gallery at Flickr.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/118755007@N06/sets/72157641527441675/

[Djeayzonne]

Vince, let me qualify that a bit.

These phones are so sensitive, that I listen to a volume of only 2-5 mostly. That is, the volume to the app is maxed, and volume is controlled from Windows as per the Dragonfly directions.
A Windows volume of zero is still listenable.

There is just simply no bass when listening this way without all the DSP magic, and screechy treble with lots of sibilance.

[mwillems]

As long as you have EQ that applies net boost and have software volume maximized, you will get distortion from clipping.  The easiest way to fix it is to do as Vincent says and reconfigure it as all cuts, there is no frequency EQ boost configuration that can't be effectively recreated as a series of cuts to other frequencies (you're just adjusting relative levels).

If that's not an option, my advice would be 1) turn off peak level normalize and/or 2) add an "adjust the volume" filter to your parametric equalizer for both channels with a -9dB gain setting.  By stacking that low shelf on top of those two parametrics, you're boosting at least 9dB at some places and that's what's causing you to clip.

[Vincent Kars]

The Shure has a 36 Ohm impedance, a very common value.
This is certainly not an over-sensitive one.
I wonder what is going on here.
Some settings in the DragonFly, the USB audio?

[Djeayzonne]

Yes, but 119 dB of sensitivity.

Before the Dragonfly, when listening on the desktop, I have used an EMU 0404 USB, which is actually an audio interface for making music, something I dabble in.
Anyway, there is no hiss on that from just plugging in the earphones into the jack and turning on power, but there is with the Dragonfly.

I cannot turn up the volume very loud on the EMU, but still 15-30 most of the time.

I know it is better to cut than boost, so if you could give me some direction how to do that and keep the sound signature I have created.
It is not just simply 'need bass, no treble', and specifically like the 20-60 Hz deep extension and typically cut the 80-100 Hz boom. My car's active setup and media room settings are similar.

Thanks again for the quick responses!!!
What a company.

[Vincent Kars]

I don’t want to spoil your party but I wonder if there is something wrong with the Dragonfly.
If this is the old model, there are indeed some issues reported with the sound quality.
Hiss? Shouldn’t be there.
Don’t know what the output impedance of the Dragonfly is but it might be too high.
Low impedance headphones and high impedance amp output often causes hiss.
I’m afraid this is a hardware issue.

[Djeayzonne]

Vincent,

Yes, I agree.
The hiss without playing anything is unacceptable to me, so I actually have an IFI DSD-nano on the way.
I plan on returning the Dragonfly, but I want to compare with this DSD-nano first.

Anyway, maybe I should have waited until I got that before posting this thread.

[Vincent Kars]

Ok
Keep us posted about your experience with the iFi.
Love to hear

Best

Vincent

[Djeayzonne]

Hey guys,

The Ifi DSD nano came in.  I am still having the same situation pretty much. There is still some hiss just turning the power on, and I pretty much have the same DSP settings, though I restarted by cutting everything to -12 in the graphic and working from there.

I can't turn the volume up on the DAC/AMP more than 9 o'clock or so, and that actually includes some play in the knob that has no effect on volume for some reason.

I am also having problems with playback formats. Ifi claims it is Microsoft's fault with bad USB3 drivers, which seems partly true. When connected to the USB3 ports, I can only use it in default mode of 44.1 Khz, which is really strange because USB1 supports up to 96 Khz.  However, thought I can actually get sound output at other settings when connected to a USB 2 port, there is a really weird delay effect at 192 Khz that effects mostly pads and similar type of sounds.

Anyway, with this hiss and having to drastically change the EQ so much, I am starting to wonder if I just need different 'phones. 

[mwillems]

Hey guys,

The Ifi DSD nano came in.  I am still having the same situation pretty much. There is still some hiss just turning the power on, and I pretty much have the same DSP settings, though I restarted by cutting everything to -12 in the graphic and working from there.

I can't turn the volume up on the DAC/AMP more than 9 o'clock or so, and that actually includes some play in the knob that has no effect on volume for some reason.

I am also having problems with playback formats. Ifi claims it is Microsoft's fault with bad USB3 drivers, which seems partly true. When connected to the USB3 ports, I can only use it in default mode of 44.1 Khz, which is really strange because USB1 supports up to 96 Khz.  However, thought I can actually get sound output at other settings when connected to a USB 2 port, there is a really weird delay effect at 192 Khz that effects mostly pads and similar type of sounds.

Anyway, with this hiss and having to drastically change the EQ so much, I am starting to wonder if I just need different 'phones.  

Since the hiss was not limited to the dragonfly, I'm afraid you may just be hearing the noisefloor of your DACs due the the sensitivity of your headphones.  

119dB at 1mw is incredibly sensitive.  According to the ifi's specs, the ifi's dynamic range/SNR is 104dB, which means that the noise floor is 104dB down from maximum volume (digital full scale).  Based on the specs, they claim a 130mw maximum output on the headphone amp at 16 Ohms.  104 dB down from that would be about 5 or 6 picowatts of noise, which applied to a 119dB/1mw sensitivity headphone would be around 35dB worth of hiss.  I would expect that would probably be quite audible in headphones.  You may have more or less hiss than that: 1) you have 32 Ohm cans not 16 Ohm cans, and 2) the ifi's specs aren't 100% clear which outputs the 104 dB SNR applies to (SNRs are usually different for headphone outputs than for line outputs).  That kind of noise would probably be completely inaudible in headphones with a sensitivity in the 80's or 90's because it would be 20 to 40 dB quieter.

By contrast, your EMU (which you mentioned upthread) has a 20 milliwatt maximum output on the headphones and a 114dB signal to noise ratio on the headphone jack, which means its noisefloor would be in the neighborhood of 17dB in your headphones.  That would ordinarily be inaudibly quiet (or close to it).  Unfortunately, the EMU has a really high output impedance (22 Ohm!), so it would likely create the same kind of frequency imbalance that you were experiencing with the dragonfly.

So to avoid hiss in your case, you will either need to find less sensitive headphones, or find a lower noise and/or lower power DAC/Headphone amp.  If you want to keep the headphones, I'd look for a DAC/Headphone amp combo that has an SNR as high as you can find (definitely better than 110dB) and a maximum output power as low as you can find (you probably don't realistically need more than 5 or 10 milliwatts to have enough headroom, but good luck finding one with that little power).  To avoid needing to EQ the Shures as much, you should also look for an amp output impedance below 4 Ohms.  It sounds like they might need some EQ regardless though.

As an aside, I feel your pain in re: too sensitive audio equipment.  I haven't gone through this drill with headphones, but I have a pair of compression drivers that have a 113dB 1W/1 meter sensitivity. Finding DACs and amps that didn't create loud hiss in them at idle was an enormous challenge for me.  Between DACs and amps, I probably demoed, borrowed, or bought about 13 pieces of equipment before I finally got in front of the learning curve and found a hissless combo.  

[Djeayzonne]

So, does anyone know of any portable DAC/AMP combos that have that high of a SNR?

I just briefly looked at JDS Labs website, SNR seems to be same as Ifi.
I tried to look up specs for Meridian's stuff, but couldn't find them.

Since I paid so much for these Shure's, I would be willing to pay a little more to get something that matches with them well. If that just isn't really possible for a portable set up, then I will start considering some other earphones.

[Vincent Kars]

I’m afraid mwillems is right.
If you google a little on “Shure 535 hiss” you will find a couple of posts on Head-fi about the same problem.
Some solve this by using an adapter kit. This is probably about adding a resistor.

USB3 should be backwards compatible but I have heard more stories about it not working with audio. Probably a driver issue.

[mwillems]

So, does anyone know of any portable DAC/AMP combos that have that high of a SNR?

I just briefly looked at JDS Labs website, SNR seems to be same as Ifi.
I tried to look up specs for Meridian's stuff, but couldn't find them.

Since I paid so much for these Shure's, I would be willing to pay a little more to get something that matches with them well. If that just isn't really possible for a portable set up, then I will start considering some other earphones.

Vincent is right that adding a series resistor will help the hiss, but it will also increase your output impedance and/or bork your damping; because it will effectively increase the output impedance. Given that the Ifi has fairly low output impedance to start with (less than 1 Ohm), you could probably use up to a 3 Ohm resistor without creating any serious output impedance/damping problems.  That would probably help with the hiss, how much, it's hard to say.   It also may change the sound a little, but not necessarily in a bad way, the best way is to try it, because that's far and away the cheapest solution.

Here's one of those head-fi threads: http://www.head-fi.org/t/607998/shure-se535-hiss-is-killing-me-better-on-theh-se215/15.  The guy talks about using a shure in line attenuator that came with the headphones?  If you've got one of those, try it, it's almost certainly just a resistive attenuator.  Otherwise, there are other "resistor in a box" type headphone attenuators for sale, or you could just buy a few resistors and test for yourself 

If you don't want to go that direction, I did a little research, and you're right, it's tough to find an interface with the right specs.  It's not cheap, but this looks like it would work: http://us.focusrite.com/usb-audio-interfaces/forte/specifications

The headphone outs have an 116dB SNR and the power output into 32 Ohms is only 27mw.  That means (that if their specs are honest) it should have similar hiss to the emu (but lower).  The output impedance isn't as low as I'd like, but it's close (8 Ohms).  In related news, it's also a pretty nice recording device (you mentioned that you like to record music sometimes).

With that price tag, though, I'd see if I could find one at my local guitar center/pro audio shop to demo it with the headphones before I bought (to make sure it would really solve my problem).

[Vincent Kars]

mwillems

Your are better in understanding specs than I am.
The relation between THD and power is a bit unclear to me
What would you say about a spec like this?

HPA2TM Headphone Outputs (DAC2 HGC and DAC2 D model only)
Output Impedance < 0.11 Ohms
Output Level Range (at 0 dBFS) into 60-Ohm Load Off to +17 dBu
Maximum Output Current 250 mA
Bandwidth > 500 kHz
THD+N -106 dB, 0.0005% into 30 Ohms at +18 dBu (1.26W)

[6233638]

For what it's worth, I have found that you can't rely on manufacturers specifications.
 
I have a pair of closed headphones with a 24 ohm impedance, and 108 dB/mW sensitivity, and find it difficult to hear hissing with most middling-to-good sources.
 
I have a pair of Apple's EarPods which (apparently) have similar specs, from what I could find online: 23 ohm impedance, 109 dB/mW, and I hear hissing when I connect them to just about any source.
 
 
It's the same for source devices. Two devices may claim the same SNR, but one might actually be a lot better than the other.
 
I've yet to hear hissing with anything I have connected to my Benchmark DAC2 HGC.

[mwillems]

mwillems

Your are better in understanding specs than I am.
The relation between THD and power is a bit unclear to me
What would you say about a spec like this?

HPA2TM Headphone Outputs (DAC2 HGC and DAC2 D model only)
Output Impedance < 0.11 Ohms
Output Level Range (at 0 dBFS) into 60-Ohm Load Off to +17 dBu
Maximum Output Current 250 mA
Bandwidth > 500 kHz
THD+N -106 dB, 0.0005% into 30 Ohms at +18 dBu (1.26W)

That THD+N is measured at full load, but includes harmonic distortion which wouldn't contribute to idle hiss; I'd need to see the signal to noise ratio or dynamic range to give you a good sense of what those specs mean.  But that's one of the Benchmark DAC/amp combos right?  Those would almost certainly work for OP's purposes if you have the cash.  They're about as low noise as you're likely to find.

For what it's worth, I have found that you can't rely on manufacturers specifications.
 
I have a pair of closed headphones with a 24 ohm impedance, and 108 dB/mW sensitivity, and find it difficult to head hissing with most middling-to-good sources.
 
I have a pair of Apple's EarPods which (apparently) have similar specs from what I could find online: 23 ohm impedance, 109 dB/mW, and I hear hissing when I connect them to just about any source.
  
It's the same for source devices. Two devices may claim the same SNR, but one might actually be a lot better than the other.
 
I've yet to hear hissing with anything I have connected to my Benchmark DAC2 HGC.

There's definitely some game playing that goes on with specs, and I've definitely heard sources with identical rated electrical specs that did not actually have identical electrical specs.  But the specs are usually "optimistic"; meaning that if they're off, they tend to be off in the "positive" direction. So if a device, based on the rated specs, looks like it would definitely cause hiss in his cans, than it's pretty likely to give him hiss.  The reverse is not true (i.e. a device that looks like it wouldn't give him hiss, might yet give him hiss because the specs were somewhat exaggerated).  That's why I recommended he demo any prospective solutions first if possible; the rated electrical specs are just a good way to weed out devices that definitely won't work if you see my point.  

In my own experience, I've found that specs generally tend to be more accurate as the price of the gear rises, but that's obviously not always true.  I'm not surprised your benchmark doesn't give hiss, it has some of the best electrical specs of any DAC/amp combo currently available, and would almost certainly solve OP's hiss problem if he wants to invest in one.

[Vincent Kars]

It is the DAC2 indeed (the upgrade itch is plaguing me a little)
Couldn’t find other specs
At the present I have a DAC1.
I don’t hear any hiss even at volume at full with the headphones I use (ER4P, HD800)

Thanks

[6233638]

It is the DAC2 indeed (the upgrade itch is plaguing me a little)
Couldn’t find other specs
At the present I have a DAC1.
I don’t hear any hiss even at volume at full with the headphones I use (ER4P, HD800)

I don't think the headphone output stage has changed in the DAC2 - your DAC1 is probably also using the HPA2. Just about everything else has been changed with the DAC2 though, as far as I am aware.

[Djeayzonne]

I will look in the box of accessories and see if I have anything like that.

Thanks for all this great info!
That Focusrite looks pretty interesting, and it is only 400 through Amazon, so that is definitely something I can consider.  However, I am not sure if it is a good idea to get a recording interface for the purpose of listening as that isn't really what it was designed for. And what if I ever want to get full-sized phones, will that still be enough?
It also seems like it would have to be plugged into the wall to really get the performance out of it indicated the specs.

I had been doing some searching, and the RSA Predator seems like a strong candidate, even though I can't find the actual specs. Any thoughts on that?

Anyway thanks again, and I know this is technically a forum with a different intended purpose.

[mwillems]

That Focusrite looks pretty interesting, and it is only 400 through Amazon, so that is definitely something I can consider.  However, I am not sure if it is a good idea to get a recording interface for the purpose of listening as that isn't really what it was designed for.

There are a few schools of thought on this, but for my part, I don't want a DAC or amp to "sound like" anything.  I want them to be as low noise as possible and alter the signal as little as possible; I want them to "disappear."  So from my perspective, I'm not sure it matters what it was designed for (as long as it has the right performance).  You might wind up paying for features you won't use if that's what you mean.  But, to be fair, I'm biased, I'm currently using a pro-audio interface as the DAC in my living stereo system  

And what if I ever want to get full-sized phones, will that still be enough?
It also seems like it would have to be plugged into the wall to really get the performance out of it indicated the specs.

It depends on what how loud you listen and what you mean by "full-sized phones."  The size of the headphone isn't necessarily a good predictor of it's sensitivity.  Will the forte drive orthodynamic headphones?  Probably not.  But 30mw will drive most conventional dynamic headphones pretty far.  If you had a 95dB/1mw sensitivity pair of cans, the forte would drive them to about 109dB.  Some folks like to have plenty of headroom for peaks, e.g. if you were listening to a very dynamic recording at around 89dB base volume, the peaks might reach 109dB.  Personally, my average headphone listening volume is rarely higher than 70dB or 80dB (or at least not for long), but some folks like to listen very loud.  

I think if you were looking at moving on to other headphones that had either very high impedance (over 300 Ohms), or very low sensitivity (below 90dB), the forte would definitely not be a good choice.  But there are a very many nice full size cans the forte would drive just fine.  The difficulty you face is that the more gain the amplifier applies, the more likely there will be hiss in your Shures.  So you have to balance your current power needs with your prospective future power needs.

You're right that the specs apply when it's plugged in; I'm not sure how much of a difference it will make to run it off of USB power.  I'd advise trying to find one at a local shop to test and see.

I had been doing some searching, and the RSA Predator seems like a strong candidate, even though I can't find the actual specs. Any thoughts on that?

I can't find very solid specs either (just a THD+N a reviewer posted without any explanation about what it's in reference to or where he got it).  I'm very suspicious of audio products without published specs for a variety of reasons.  Some people claim that specs don't matter, but my own experience with very sensitive speakers taught me that they really, really do (at least in that context).  If I were you, and I could demo a Predator without having to buy, I'd give it a shot.  

[Djeayzonne]

Well, I found the attenuator that came with the earphones.
This really helps and I don't have to turn it down that much to get rid of the hiss. I don't mind having to use this at all.

So, with the attenuator, I started A/B-ing the Dragonfly and DSD nano. The Dragonfly actually has less initial hiss, but the Nano definitely is the better DAC.
However, I said I was having driver issues with the Nano that was causing a weird delay effect. Actually it is happening on both devices, but it didn't start happening until after I installed the driver for the DSD nano.
It doesn't happen all the time at 96 KHz, but it does happen at the same parts of certain songs on both devices.  It just happens much, much more often and really stands out when set to 192 KHz.

Also, I read some reviews about the Audioengine D3, particularly the one over at headfi, where they compare this with the Dragonfly. I agree completely with what the say about the Dragonfly, and I liked what they had to say about bass performance from the D3, and also it is supposed to have the SNR over 110 dB as you guys mentioned should be a minimum, so I also ordered that, and that should be here tomorrow for me to continue comparing.

However, this weird delay problem has got to be fixed, or otherwise, there really isn't much point in having any kind of external, dedicated device.
I will play some more with it to see if it is isolated to JRiver or not, and then if the problem is reproduced on my laptop.

[Djeayzonne]

Well, the weird delay effect is happening in JRiver only.

So I started turning off each option in the DSP studio to see if any of those are causing the problem, and it is specifically the output format section.

Can anyone explain this?  What is the benefit of using this?  What am I missing out by not being able to use it?

..... and then the current track ended and I get an error when trying to start the next track "Playback could not be started at 44.1 KHz, please change to 192"

I really hope you guys can help me out with this one. I really hope to buy this after the trial and use this software, but this weird delay thing is going to be a deal-breaker.

[Djeayzonne]

Bump regarding the delay problem in JRiver

[mwillems]

Well, the weird delay effect is happening in JRiver only.

So I started turning off each option in the DSP studio to see if any of those are causing the problem, and it is specifically the output format section.

Can anyone explain this?  What is the benefit of using this?  What am I missing out by not being able to use it?

..... and then the current track ended and I get an error when trying to start the next track "Playback could not be started at 44.1 KHz, please change to 192"

I really hope you guys can help me out with this one. I really hope to buy this after the trial and use this software, but this weird delay thing is going to be a deal-breaker.

Could you describe what you mean by a "delay" effect?  Do you mean that it does not start playing immediately, or do you mean that there's an echo, or maybe that the two channels are timed differently?

Also, if you think output format is the issue, could you also post a screencap of your output format settings?

[Djeayzonne]

It happens whether set to 96 or 192, but it is more pronounced in 192.

A weird ping-pong type of digital-distortion reverb delay lingers after a certain sound finishes. For example, in "In the Air Tonight", after that initial guitar chord in the first few seconds, it lasts all the way until the pad (harmony) starts.

This does not happen when either DAC is set to the default of 44.1 K.
This does not happen in other apps when either DAC is set to 96 or 192.

[mwillems]

It happens whether set to 96 or 192, but it is more pronounced in 192.

A weird ping-pong type of digital-distortion reverb delay lingers after a certain sound finishes. For example, in "In the Air Tonight", after that initial guitar chord in the first few seconds, it lasts all the way until the pad (harmony) starts.

This does not happen when either DAC is set to the default of 44.1 K.
This does not happen in other apps when either DAC is set to 96 or 192.

If it happens with both DACs and only JRiver, it sounds like it's either something in the settings or the drivers. You mentioned that it didn't start until you loaded the Nano's driver, and that it seems linked to output format, so that could go either way.  

On the settings question, could you post a screen cap of your output format settings in DSP studio?  

On the driver question, when you were trying playback in other apps, did you test other programs that have direct output options (like WASAPI or ASIO), or did you test in conventional windows sound apps (like windows media player)? I ask because most apps use direct sound for output, which passes through the windows mixer.  When using direct sound as an output mode, everything is resampled to the same rate (whatever is set in the windows mixer), so that could mask sample rate dependent issues like the ones you're seeing.  I would expect that, if it is a driver issue rather than a settings issue, that other WASAPI capable players would have the same problem as JRiver, but direct sound based players might not (because they just resample everything anyway).  

[Djeayzonne]

I have no special settings in output format, either everything is set to 44.1, 96, or 192 by right-clicking and selecting the sample rate. Nothing else has been touched.

The Dragonfly is a USB 1 device, so uses the default Windows driver.
The USD nano is a USB 2 device, which required the installation of their driver.
Thus, the devices do not share a driver.

I checked before in Spotify (not the web app), so I guess that applies to what you said, though the colors indicating the sample rates on the DACs do not change when changing from JRiver playback to Spotify playback.

I just checked in Itunes as well, after changing output from Direct Sound to Windows session, 192 @ 24 bits.  Changing back and forth between the same song "In the Air Tonight", the problem does not exist in iTunes, the problem continues to exist in JRiver. The light on the DSD nano stays Cyan, which indicates 192 KHz playback.  Interestingly enough, when I just clicked the stop button on JRiver, the app crashed and was killed by Windows.

Any ideas?

[Blaine78]

What output are you using for audio? ASIO or WASAPI? If using one, try the other and see if problem persists.

[Djeayzonne]

I have been using WASAPI.

I just received the Audioengine D3, and it does not have ASIO. I want to listen to this as much as possible, but I will try ASIO with the other DACs sometime tomorrow I think and get back to you.

On the other hand, this D3 has a Kernel Streaming mode, but JRiver will not play when set to this. Just getting a generic format error "Something went wrong with playback"

I think I should just make a new thread for that. Let's keep this one focused on the delay issue.

[Vincent Kars]

ASIO is a proprietary driver.
Either your DAC comes with ASIO support or not.
If it doesn’t no way to try ASIO.

You say you are using WASAPI but at the same time there is no sample rate switching.
Unless you set everything to the same fixed sample rate in DSP studio, you should see a change e.g. when switching from a 44.1 to a 88.2 kHz source.

I suggest to tackle the delay issues by disabling all DSP in JRiver.
Choose WASAPI in Audio Device and check that Exclusive Access is checked in the device settings.
Play a couple of sources with different sample rate (not to be mistaken for bit rate) and check if automatic sample rate switching occurs and if you still have this delay issues.

[Djeayzonne]

Vince,

Thanks again. No, I have three different DACs right now, Dragonfly, ifi DSD nano, and Audioengine D3.

Dragonfly and DSD nano has ASIO options.

I tried what you said, setting all sampling rates to No Change.  I then downloaded a Mozart sample in three varieties, 96K, DXD, and DSD128.

The 96K and DXD worked, the light changed color, and JRiver displayed the bit rate next to the track title as it was playing.
However, the DSD128 file would not start, and JRiver told me to change to PCM 176K.  The file plays this way, but that seems to defeat the purpose.

However, changing all sample rates for PCM to No Change fixed the weird delay issue. After starting In the Air Tonight, the color changes to green on the DSD nano, indicating 44.1 or 48 playback, and no weird delay.

This is cool, I am definitely happy with it this way. I just want to clarify one thing. I thought one of the benefits of software like JRiver and a decent external DAC was to upsample old files to these new formats. Is this understanding inaccurate?

Also, please help me figure out how to play the DSD128 file!

[Vincent Kars]

DSD128 file would not start, and JRiver told me to change to PCM 176K.  The file plays this way, but that seems to defeat the purpose.

There is a trick called DoP (DSD over the USB): http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/DOP.htm
This protocol must be supported by both the media player and the hardware.
Check if the DACs do support DoP

[Djeayzonne]

Vincent,

The DSD nano seems to support this, what do I have to do in JRiver?

Could you also comment about my other question regarding upsampling?

Thanks again!

[Vincent Kars]

I thought one of the benefits of software like JRiver and a decent external DAC was to upsample old files to these new formats. Is this understanding inaccurate?

Yes
By design Redbook (audio CD) has a dynamic range of 16*6=96 dB and a frequency range up to 1/2 fs= 44.1/2=22.05
If you upsample to 24 (dynamic range 24*6=144 dB) and e.g. 88.2 kHz (max freq= 44.1) this won't help you as this information is simply not in the original 16/44.1 recording.

It is a bit like converting MP3 to FLAC or WAV. Yes this are lossless formats. No, converting a lossy format back to a lossless format won't restore the information lost in the lossy compression.

A lot od DACs today are upsampling DACs. They use a DSP chip to do so. It is possible that the upsampling used by JRiver (64 bits) simply does a better job than the DSP chip. Something you can try.

The reverse is true. High resolution recordings (24 bit, almost everybody records that way) and a higher sample rate do contain more information than a 16/44.
IF you down sample them to Redbook, you do loose information.
To what extend is open to debate.

IMHO it is a 3 or even 4 order phenomenon. What is really dominant is the recording quality.
A crappy recording in Hires sounds like a crappy recording.
A good recording sounds gorgeous, even in redbook.

My advice is listen to music, far more exiting than listening to file formats.

[Vincent Kars]

Try this one: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format

[Djeayzonne]

Thanks for the wiki link.
After reading that, wouldn't it be better to just change to custom bit streaming as DSD?

Yeah, I get what your saying about formats. And definitely bad recordings are just bad and make good music unlistenable.

[Hendrik]

Dragonfly and DSD nano has ASIO options.

While I don't have anything useful to say towards your problem, I was wondering about this.
I have a DragonFly myself, but I didn't seem to see ASIO drivers for it. Are you sure about this?

[Djeayzonne]

Hello there.
I am pretty sure the Dragonfly did, though I already stopped using it.

The iFi iDSD definitely does.