Topic: Pending Tagging Change in MJ 8 (any objections???) (Read 3340 times)

Matt · « **on:** February 20, 2002, 05:37:35 am »

We plan to remove the "Support extended fields (ID3v2 tags for mp3)" option in Media Jukebox 8. It's too confusing staying on top of what's in the tag, what isn't, what can be, what can't be, etc. with this option. So, we will make it so that you'll see all the supported fields for each format. MP3's will always be tagged with ID3v2 tags (and a matching ID3v1 tag) so that the MJ meta-data and other extended fields will be saved properly.

Other formats are unaffected since they don't have two tag formats. Also, you'll still be able to disable tagging in general in the options.

Also, what URL tag fields do people use? Would you miss it if you only had "File URL". Also, are there any other fields (not databased... tag only) that you really want?

Thank you.

-Matt
JRiver, Inc.

Doof · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2002, 05:50:57 am »

Just so I have this right...

You're keeping ID3v2 support, yes? You're just removing the option to NOT use ID3v2?

If so, I'm fine with that, although I can think of at least one person who won't be. Next Page

If you're saying you're removing ID3v2 support, then here's my vote to keep it.

As far as URL tags... I currently don't use them much, but was starting to now that I'm re-ripping everything to APE. Basically any URL I see on the CD for publisher, distributor, etc, I put in there, plus if I can find an official webpage for the artist, I put that in there. I'm not entirely sure what File URL is for, but I've been using it for Distributor. But then I get confused about what the difference is between Publisher and Distributor. Next Page

There was one URL I wanted to store that I currently couldn't (well, I could, just not in a field designed for it). I have a tendancy to buy soundtracks much more often than I do any other kind of CD. And movies nowadays all have a website devoted to them... like www.whatisthematrix.com or something similar. So it would be kind of cool to have a Movie URL, but it's not really crucial or anything.

So I would like to see the URLS stay. I could probably do without the Buy URL, since I'm only doing this for CD's I actually own, but I'd like to see the others stay.

Gatobrit · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2002, 05:55:45 am »

Matt - if, as Doof says, you're going to keep v2 tags then I don't have any objections.

Matt · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2002, 06:00:20 am »

>You're keeping ID3v2 support, yes? You're just removing the option to NOT use ID3v2?

Correct. We will ALWAYS write an ID3v2 tag with mp3's. It could be slow the first time, but after that, it doesn't really make any difference. This way there should be less confusion for the user. (this started when Nikolay and I (who theoretically should know what's going on in MJ) together didn't really know what got stored when...)

>If so, I'm fine with that, although I can think of at least one person who won't be.

Yes, KingSparta may lay an egg. Or list a bunch of songs like: "Metallica - Sad But True" I hope he forgives us.

-Matt

SeanC · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2002, 06:02:23 am »

I support this. Having two formats is a drag, and I much prefer v2.

ZRocker · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2002, 06:03:35 am »

I hate ID3v2 tags and do not use them!! Please do NOT remove the ability to disable v2 tags MJ (I think KingS is with me on this). I have many, many reasons why I don't want v2 tags. If this feature goes away...I'm afraid I will not use MJ anymore (and I'd be very sad about that).

Matt · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2002, 06:06:06 am »

> I have many, many reasons why I don't want v2 tags.

Could you list a few? I mean, what's the big deal?

Also, we've been writing ID3v2 tags regardless of the setting (erroneously) for the past couple months of MJ 8 beta's. Nobody has seemed to mind...

Thank you.

-Matt

bennyd · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2002, 06:07:02 am »

Any other fields or tags that are not in the database:

The path to the coverart or a flag to determine that there is an image for this file or no, so we can create a smartlist that excludes the files which do not have an image yet.

ZRocker · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2002, 06:29:27 am »

I remove those erroneous v2 tag adds from MJ8...I don't use custom fields, so I haven't been getting v2 tag in MJ8. Sure, I'd like to see the bugs in MJ8 fixed...still.

Reasons:

1. File size BLOAT
2. Rewriting whole files (even once) to insert ID3v2 tags at the beginning of the files is slow
3. Most external devices don't support them and some even have problems playing MP3s with v2 tags
4. Software programs tend to handle them all differently and not conform to the standard (everybody interprets tags differnetly and some handle some fields and others don't)
5. I experimented with v2 tags 2|PLS| years ago and fully understand their use, but I don't want them in MY files
6. I just don't want the headache of dealing with v2 tags...I can probably list more if I think about it for another 5 mins...

ZRocker · « **Reply #9 on:** February 20, 2002, 06:35:52 am »

Another Reason:

7. I hated Real Jukebox too because you couldn't disable v2 tagging support...I continually cursed at RJB for adding v2 tags. So, I used Dr.Tag for tagging updates (back then)...now that MJ 7.0 had great tagging support, I went with MJ completely on tagging updates.

ZRocker · « **Reply #10 on:** February 20, 2002, 06:39:40 am »

Seems like you could just add another option checkbox called 'Store MJ custom fields in tags' and disable access to the box if ID3v2 tag support is disabled. This way, the user could see that w/o v2 tag support enabled, custom MJ stuff will be lost if they reload the tracks into MJ. Also, the user could also select v2 support and not MJ custom fields support.

koreth · « **Reply #11 on:** February 20, 2002, 06:51:26 am »

> 2. Rewriting whole files (even once) to insert ID3v2 tags at the beginning of the files is slow

My solution for this was to select all my songs, bring up the properties dialog, select "update all", and let it run overnight. It was done by the time I got up, no thumb-twiddling required. All the new stuff I rip has v2 tags to start with.

Which portables have problems with v2 tags? I want to know so I can make sure to avoid them. The Pine D'Music and the Philips eXpanium are the only two I've tried; they both work fine with v2-tagged MP3s.

v1 was annoying for me because I have lots of classical music with track titles that don't fit in the v1 tags. Before v2 I used to have to either aggressively abbreviate my track titles or live with titles that got cut off mid-word. Yuck.

I don't mind the proposed change, though I also don't see the harm in having a way to turn it off buried in the options UI somewhere.

LCtheDJ · « **Reply #12 on:** February 20, 2002, 08:42:12 am »

...are there any other fields (not databased... tag only) that you really want?

I really want the BPM frame. (beats per minute, TBPM)

While on the subject of tags, could you take a look at my thread "User selectable ID3 v2.3 fields?" It's about making the tag frame a program variable that the end user can select and type in.

BTW, I use v2 but can see why some don't want to.

ZRocker · « **Reply #13 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:03:09 am »

To Clarify:

MJ 8.0 does not 100% of the time add ID3v2 tags to your MP3s...MJ 8.0 does NOT add v2 tag to my MP3 files because I don't use ratings or custom MJ fields. I think Matt is misleading some of you (not intentionally)...saying that MJ 8.0 is bugged and been adding v2 tags all along & nobody is complaining. I complained about MJ 8.0 adding v2 tags when v2 tagging is turned off and you use ratings or MJ custom fields. OFF should be Off...always. I've not tested this bug lately, but I assume it is still there as I've not seen a 'Fixed' comment saying it's been fixed.

From http://www.musicex.com/cgi-bin/interact/NeoBoard.pl?Action=ShowPost&Board=inter&Post=7728&BoardIdle=7&SortingBy=0&BoardOrder=Descend&Page=0.101423190992690

ZRocker 02-02-2002 08:33:38 A.M.

Bugs:
1. With 'Support extended tag fields (ID3v2 tags)' turned off, MJ still creates ID3v2 tags if you use the Album Artist or Custom 1-3 fields in Media File Properties. With this option turned off, the user does NOT want MJ to maintain these fields in ID3v2 tags in his/her media files...just in MJ's database. Also, the user knows that if he/she deletes the media file from MJ and reimports it, he/she will lose those custom field entries and have to reenter them.

KingSparta · « **Reply #14 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:08:03 am »

Matt

Rolling Stones - Sad Day.mp3

Me And ZRocker Are On The Same Page

I may not be able to deal with this

I will most likely do all take editing with another program and never save tags with MJ again.

KingSparta · « **Reply #15 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:17:26 am »

Matt

>any objections
yes

strongly

God I hope this is a nightmare

"Say It's Not So Joe"

Adam Zampino - Please Reconsider.mp3

KingSparta · « **Reply #16 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:19:13 am »

I don't want Id3v2 Tags!

SeanC · « **Reply #17 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:25:10 am »

Consider this another vote for BPM storage.

I can also see why others don't want to use v2, but my only objection is speed. I don't have problems with other software not using the tags.

mike · « **Reply #18 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:25:55 am »

I think tagging should work like so:

MP3 should only use id3v1 by default. id3v2 should only be used if the v1 tag cannot store the information OR you are adding extra/advanced information that is NOT MJ specific. For example, if the song's title, artist, or album text is too long for v1, then use v2. Or if you want to add a tag like composer or guitarist. Fields like rating should never be tagged to a file since it only refers to one persons specific opinion, and MJ is the only player that has any use for a 1/5 rating scale, it should be stored in the internal MJ database only.

Replay gain should be stored only in the MJ database (not a MJMETADATA tag) IF the format has no standard for attaching the information to the file. OGG Vorbis does, and the standard RG_RADIO, RG_AUDIOPHILE, RG_PEAK tags should be used instead. MP|PLS| also has a standard way of storing RG data. I'd also like to see MJ be able to read these standard format replay gain tags.

Personally I really dislike the MJMETADATA tag being put onto file formats that have no need to use it. OGG, APE, and even MP3 with id3v2, support unlimited custom tag fields which would be the better way to do things. That way the info can be accessed equally by various software applications. Data that is specific to MJ (like rating) should be stored by MJ internally, in its database, not added to the file.

You should also be able to create, name and edit custom tags that are written to the file according to its spec (for formats which support this eg. OGG, id3v2 APE). The three custom tags and the MJMETADATA tag in MJ now just adds unneeded complexity to what should be a simple process. If you want to add a tag field called 'live' with a value of 'San Fransisco' to an OGG file for example, it should be written to the OGG in the same way and on the same level as the other tags like 'artist' and 'tracknumber'. No MJMETADATA!

Thank you!

KingSparta · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:26:47 am »

The Rolling Stones - It's All Over Now.mp3

KingSparta · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:28:17 am »

Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers - Don't Do Me Like That.mp3

whats going on here!

I love my ID3v1.1 tags don't make me take id3v2

Please....

KingSparta · « **Reply #21 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:32:18 am »

I am Having A

KingSparta · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:34:07 am »

>>I hope he forgives us
No

KingSparta · « **Reply #23 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:35:19 am »

I will give you my second Born not to go down this road. (the first is a mess, you don't wan't him)

JimH · « **Reply #24 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:39:43 am »

Can she code?

KingSparta · « **Reply #25 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:42:56 am »

Well Sort Of

One Cow Chip = 1
No Cow Chips = 0

it takes her a long time to spell out 1 byte in a 32 bit operating system

MHorton · « **Reply #26 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:54:46 am »

i use id3 tags and don't care if you make the change

except

it seems you'd both

lose the backbone of Interact (KingSparta)

and

the primary exterminator (ZRocker)

and

that would be sad

Michael

KingSparta · « **Reply #27 on:** February 20, 2002, 09:57:43 am »

Id3v1 Good

Id3v2 = Bad (In bed With the Devil)

Ilmar · « **Reply #28 on:** February 20, 2002, 10:15:54 am »

Bob the Bulder - Right tool for the job!

I always use ID3v2 tags and often delete the ID3v1 as it is usually crammed full of rubbish and half missing text.

When I used Helium (ineffectively) it had an ID3v2 tag for composer... was this a legit tag? If so, very useful to include it.

Ilmar

KingSparta · « **Reply #29 on:** February 20, 2002, 10:34:33 am »

>>it had an ID3v2 tag for composer was this a legit tag?
yes

Doof · « **Reply #30 on:** February 20, 2002, 10:50:47 am »

I'm going to throw my support in with King Sparta, just because it means so much to him. Next Page

Cinderella - Don't Know What You Got Till It's Gone.mp3

Matt · « **Reply #31 on:** February 20, 2002, 12:46:10 pm »

'Nuff said.

We'll figure something else out.

Maybe tagging configuration could be in Plugin Manager under the individual format's plugin.

Thanks everyone.

-Matt

(tomorrow: getting rid of the confusing and dowdy "media library")

Doof · « **Reply #32 on:** February 20, 2002, 12:46:57 pm »

Bwah?

KingSparta · « **Reply #33 on:** February 20, 2002, 01:13:27 pm »

I have a reason to drink tonight

warm up - Screw Driver (12oz)
Dinner - Red Wine Semi Sweet (12oz)
After Dinner - another Screw Driver, Then Moving on to beer 40oz - and see how far i get

Michael Horton · « **Reply #34 on:** February 20, 2002, 02:18:29 pm »

>>>>>>>>>>I have a reason to drink tonight

Isn't that a bit like saying "it'll get dark when the sun goes down"?

KingSparta · « **Reply #35 on:** February 20, 2002, 02:25:06 pm »

hehe

Yes

The only thing I can't drink is

1. Water (Unless Used As A Chaser)
2. Grapefruit Juice (it don’t Get Along With ZOCOR, Medication) Grapefruit Juice and Vodka "Greyhound"

Charlemagne 8 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 20, 2002, 03:00:00 pm »

Well, I'm glad that's all over. As I was reading this thread, I planned on backing King Sparta because I don't care much about tags (don't really understand them) but I do care if KS cares. He DOES know and understand tags. Oh well. I always seem to show up after everything is all over.

JimH · « **Reply #37 on:** February 20, 2002, 03:03:33 pm »

Long Live the King.

Say "Good Night, Gracie".

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Author Topic: Pending Tagging Change in MJ 8 (any objections???) (Read 3340 times)

koreth

LCtheDJ

mike

MHorton

Ilmar