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[jdubs]

Hey Guys

I picked up a Steinber UR44.  I love Steinberg stuff and the UR44 fits in well with my needs given its 4 channels of output and my 2.1 system.

Anyway, I'd like to have my main speakers on output channels 1 and 2 and my sub on channel 3.  The main speaker are to be run full range and I'd like to have the sub cross over at 80hz. 

Any tips on setting this up in JRiver / Steinberg's software?

Any help much appreciated.

-Jim

[mwillems]

I think the first step would be to hook up outputs to the amplifiers and speakers the way you want them to work. 

Output format should be set to 2.1, which (hopefully) should work correctly with the UR44.  I say "hopefully" because 2.1 as currently setup in JRiver sends a 6 channel signal with three blank channels.  That said, I'm pretty sure the UR44 has enough logical outputs even if it doesn't have enough analog outputs, so it should work fine.

The challenge will be finding the correct channel offset in JRiver's ASIO driver options.  I have the UR824, but I think it has a different software mixer panel than the UR44. You'll probably just need to keep changing the channel offset until it's correct.  It may be right immediately, but if it's not, keep moving the channel offset up one or two at a time until it works correctly.

When you say you want the mains running full-range, but the sub crossed over at 80Hz, do you mean that you want your speakers and sub to overlap below 80Hz?  Or do your speakers begin rolling off at or above 80 Hz?

Regardless, you can use the room correction module, or PEQ to set up your bass management/sub crossover.  There's a sub option in output format, but, unless you're only going to be listening to 2 channel music, I'd recommend against using that option to create the subwoofer (i.e. it should be set to "silent"). If you're planning for overlap, setting it up in room correction will probably be the easiest thing to do.  If your speakers roll off and you're trying to cross in the sub to fill in for that roll off, PEQ would probably be the better option, but I'd need more info about the roll-off you're trying to match before I could suggest specific settings.

Once you've got the frequency setup, you'll need to get your delays set correctly.  If you have a measurement microphone (I think you do based on past conversations) it's pretty easy to do once everything else is setup.  How you do it will depend on what the transition between the sub and the mains is going to be like, I can outline a few ideas once I know a little more about what the transition band will look like.

[mojave]

Even though the UR44 has 4 outputs, it supports 6 DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) channels. This is very nice since it allows you to select 5.1 in Output Mode in JRiver's DSP Studio. You can look at the block diagram on page 35 of the UR44 manual to find this out.

Here is what you need to setup:

• In Tools > Options > Audio > Audio Device select Yamaha Steinberg USB (ASIO) assuming you have already installed the drivers
• In Audio > Audio Device > Device Settings leave the offset to 0, uncheck "Use large hardware buffers", and set buffering to 50 milliseconds
• In DSP Studio set the Output Format to "5.1 channels", select JRSS mixing, and check "For stereo sources only mix to 2.1"
• In Output Format under Subwoofer, select JRSS Subwoofer (80 Hz lowpass). This will leave the mains fullrange and send below 80 Hz to the subwoofer.
• Activate Room Correction DSP and set the distances for your left, right, and sub. If your sub is ported, you need to add a few ft to the actual distance. Bass Management should be set to No Crossover.
  
• Connect the subwoofer to channel 4, not 3. With 5.1 output, channel 4 is always the subwoofer
• You shouldn't need to change anything in the Steinberg drivers or mixer. If you do get some dropouts first increase the buffering in Audio Device > Device Settings. You may also need to click Open Driver Control Panel in Device Settings and increase the Steinberg buffer size.

[mwillems]

• In Output Format under Subwoofer, select JRSS Subwoofer (80 Hz lowpass). This will leave the mains fullrange and send below 80 Hz to the subwoofer.

Mojave, two questions:

Hendrik recently indicated that the output format subwoofer option only engages when the original source had no LFE or subwoofer channel.  http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88345.msg605787#msg605787  If that's correct wouldn't that result in poor bass management results when playing 5.1 material (i.e. no bass redirected in those circs)?  

Also wouldn't your steps result in discarding the surround information from a 5.1 source (SL and SR)? Or is that by design (I recall you had said in the past that you thought mixing the surrounds into the mains wasn't ideal)?

[mojave]

I am assuming he is using this system for music and you are assuming he is using it for movies. 

With a 5.1 source I would add this:

• In Output Format check "Move center to front L/R"
• Optional - In Room Correction > Bass Management set the crossover where desired for SL and SR and select "Move bass to subwoofer"
  

Yes, I prefer to discard the surrounds rather than mix them to the front speakers when listening to 5.1 on a 2.1 system. You are still getting the bass from the front 3 channels (downmixed to L/R) plus the LFE. He wants the mains to be fullrange so no bass management is necessary. Also, with just a single subwoofer I feel that most will get better sound without rerouted bass. When you reroute the bass from 5 channels to the sub you end up needing a lot more capability. The option I added above lets him reroute the bass from the surrounds to the subwoofer if desired.

5.1 to 2.1 has to compromise in certain areas. I feel like moving surround info to the front channels is a greater "problem" than discarding the surround info completely, but of course this is personal preference. If feel that my method has the edge on clarity and dynamics. It can help with dialog clarity.

One could also set Output Format to 2.1 and turn on JRSS. Set the subwoofer to JRSS Subwoofer (80 Hz lowpass). For music this will copy content below 80 Hz to the subwoofer and the mains will be fullrange. For movies, the LFE will go to the subwoofer and all other channels will be downmixed to the mains. I think the subwoofer needs to be on channel 3 in this case.

[mwillems]

I am assuming he is using this system for music and you are assuming he is using it for movies.  

I was just trying to make sure we were covering all the angles  .  I was also thinking of 5.1 music; I don't listen to much of it, but I'm always amazed at how popular surround mixes of concerts are around here.

5.1 to 2.1 has to compromise in certain areas. I feel like moving surround info to the front channels is a greater "problem" than discarding the surround info completely, but of course this is personal preference. If feel that my method has the edge on clarity and dynamics. It can help with dialog clarity.

I agree, it definitely helps clarity to discard them (especially dialog clarity); in the end I personally prefer to keep the surrounds in my own 2.1 mix (just mixed lower using custom PEQ), but there are definite advantages to leaving them out. 

[jdubs]

Hugely helpful, thanks guys!!  mwillems, re: your earlier question, my mains have an f3 of 80hz which is where I was planning on rolling the sub into at. 

Will report back after I've had a chance to trial out the above.

-Jim

[mwillems]

Hugely helpful, thanks guys!!  mwillems, re: your earlier question, my mains have an f3 of 80hz which is where I was planning on rolling the sub into at.  

Will report back after I've had a chance to trial out the above.

-Jim

Ok, you'll just want to try and set the slope of the sub crossover so its symmetrical with the mains' roll off (otherwise you'll probably get a frequency response lump on one side of the crossover or the other).  A "normal" sealed box speaker has a 12dB per octave roll off below the f3, and a "normal" vented speaker has a 24dB roll off below the port tuning frequency (which is usually at or near the f3).  

Your individual mileage may vary depending on how well behaved your driver is near the f3, and (for vented speakers) where the port tuning is in relation to the driver's natural resonance/roll off.  But if in doubt, measurements will tell you.

You may ultimately want to add a crossover filter to your mains anyway depending on how the drivers wind up summing at the crossover, but you'll know that when you see it  

[jdubs]

Guys, I'm back....now with measuring equipment!!  Sub is up first. 

I'm using a Cross Spectrum calibrated emm-6 mic.  I plugged it into input 2 turned on phantom power and as soon as I turned up the amp...crazy feedback ensues!  How can I stop it from happening?  Super loud high(ish) frequency, almost like a sweep.  If I turn up the amp, the feedback get's louder.

Ideas?  I've done the usual searches but am unsure of how to solve this problem using the UR44.

Thanks!!
Jim

[jdubs]

Figured it out guys...just took significant messing with the DSP software.   

-Jim