Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[csx31]

I am using JRiver 19 v19.0.135, Windows 7 Professional 64-bit, and a Benchmark DAC2 HGC.  My question is why a 16-bit file playback is always displayed in the JRiver as "Output: 44.1kHz 24-bit (padded) 2ch using WASAPI (direct connection)."  The input appears correctly displayed as "44.1kHz 16-bit 2 ch from source format AIF."  Copy inside box reads "No changes are being made."

The Benchmark DAC2 displays lights for 16- or 24-bit word length, and 44, 48, 2x, or 4x kHz.  The driver I am using is Benchmark DAC2 USB Audio 2.0 (WASAPI).

I don't know why 16-bit files ripped directly from CD's are played as 24-bit (padded).  96k files and 192k files show as 24-bit (padded).  256k m4a files also show as "44.1kHZ 24-bit (padded)...".

Would you please advise on what I can do to have correct bit-file playback indications, and not have them padded?

Your assistance is appreciated.  Thank you.

[mojave]

You should always output the bitdepth supported by your hardware. Did you change the bitdepth from Automatic to 16 bit?

You can read more on Audio Bitdepth in the wiki.

[6233638]

24-bit (padded) means that the output is a 24-bit audio signal, inside a 32-bit container.
 
There are technical reasons for it, but the simple explanation is that many devices will not accept a 24-bit input on its own - they only accept 16-bit or 32-bit input formats.
The DAC itself only plays back 24-bit audio though, which is why you have a 24-bit audio signal inside a 32-bit container.
 
Media Center will always output the highest bit-depth that your DAC supports, regardless of the input format.
If you have bit-perfect playback, then this is identical to a 16-bit output with a number of zeros padding the signal to 24-bit. (or 32-bit)
 
The DAC2 actually detects the bit-depth of the incoming signal, and if you send it a 16-bit (CD) or 20-bit (HDCD) signal inside a 24-bit container, you will see that the 24-bit LED illuminates briefly as playback begins (because the incoming signal is 24-bit) and it then drops down to 16/20-bit. (because the audio being played is 16/20-bit)
 
 
If you are making changes to the audio on playback, such as adjusting the volume inside Media Center rather than via the DAC, or performing some other kind of DSP, you will see that the signal stays as 24-bit. This is because you want to use the highest precision possible when processing audio.

[csx31]

Thank you, mojave, and 6233638, for your replies.  Reading Audio Bitdepth in the wiki was helpful.  If I understand this correctly, the audio files are stored in my computer at whatever bitdepth they were originally recorded, go through JRiver, and are converted into 24-bit audio files and sent in that form to the Benchmark DAC2.  That is why the DAC2's 24-bit LED is always lit.  Am I correct in this?

My goal is to have a direct path, with no changes to the audio on playback.  I use no DSP, and use the volume control of the DAC2, not the Media Center's volume.

6233638, you mentioned that the 24-bit LED may light briefly, and then the 16-bit LED comes on when playing a 16-bit file. This is not the case for me, as the 24-bit LED is always on, and is why I posted originally.  Is this consistent with an optimal set-up?  I wanted to be sure that I had correctly set up the DAC2, Windows, and JRiver.  

I have since changed the DAC2 audio driver to the ASIO version, which outputs as 32-bit, rather than the WASAPI driver which outputs as 24-bit (padded).  

Any suggestions on set-up are appreciated.  Thank you again for your assistance.

 

[AndyU]

Hi - I have a Benchmark DAC2 HGC and use it with MC19. The "16bit" light comes on when I play 16 bit material, and the "24bit" light comes on when I play 24 bit material, (or use the MC volume control or DSP).

I use Benchmarks own ASIO driver, and have this selected in Audio > Audio Device, where it shows as "Benchmark DAC2 ASIO Driver [ASIO]". I use this rather than the WASAPI option because JRiver say in the wiki to use ASIO if you have a well behaved ASIO driver. In the device settings I have selected "Device use only most significant 24 bits".

The WASAPI option shows up in Audio > Audio Device as "Benchmark DAC2 (Benchmark DAC2 USB Audio 2.0) [WASAPI]". If I use it I get exactly the same behaviour with the lights on the DAC2 - the "correct" light for the bit-depth illuminates.

My files are FLAC. I'm on Windows 8 now, but Windows 7 behaved the same.

Is it conceivable that AIF is the reason for this - might it be worth trying a couple of FLAC or WAV rips?

I'd be happy to step through any other settings with you.

p.s.  you could also try playing a cd via spdif/toslink and checking that the 16bit light comes on. (if you have a player!)

[6233638]

Check that the audio path does not show any DSP being performed, and if you are using the default Noire skin, you should see the "blue light" when bit-perfect playback is being used. (see attached image)
 
If you are playing lossy files (MP3, AAC etc.) then these are not 16-bit, even if they were created from a 16-bit source.
Lossy compression uses floating point values, and this will be converted to the highest bit-depth that your device supports on playback in Media Center.
 
Other players may indeed treat these as "16-bit" files though.

[csx31]

6233638, I have checked the audio path and there is no DSP being performed.  I also use the Noire skin, and see the "blue light" indication for bit-perfect playback for all music played.  I have mostly AIF files, but also have some FLAC and MP3 files.  Whenever I change the type of file I listen to, the 16-bit LED and 24-bit LED are both dark, then the 24-bit LED always lights no matter the file type.  The 44, 48, 2x, and 4x LED's do change to indicate the correct kHz for the file type being played.  The only time the 16-bit LED lights is when I turn on or turn off the DAC2, when all LED's light briefly.

If Media Center always outputs the highest bit-depth that the DAC supports, regardless of input format, does this mean that the 24-bit LED will always be lit for the DAC2? 

Using the Benchmark DAC2 ASIO driver, the output displays as 32-bit, and input displays as 16-bit for AIF CD-ripped files under the Noire skin "blue light."

AndyU, I also use the ASIO driver for the same reason you state, from the JRiver wiki.  I played a FLAC file, and this also lights the 24-bit LED, just as all other music files.  I previously used the WASAPI driver, and the 24-bit LED was lit for all music.

My DAC2 is new, and I want to be sure it is indicating 16-bit or 24-bit word-length correctly.  The audio quality of the music playback is outstanding.  The lack of 16-bit LED indication is the only thing that concerns me.  I want to be sure that all settings are correct.  I have checked all that I could find.

Thank you for your replies.

     

[AndyU]

csx31 -Why not try a few things?

- transcode some files to WAV so you can be absolutely sure of the bit depth
- try foobar
- try iTunes
- download a couple of tracks of known bit depth
- try a cd player and cd

How did you rip your cds?

I repeat that the vast majority of my rips are 16bit FLAC. When I play these on the DAC2, the 16 bit light comes on. I have some hi-res downloads, and some HDCD rips which are packaged as 24 bit, and for these the 24 bit light comes on.  If I use MCs volume control, or some DSP, then the 24 bit light comes on whatever the source bit depth.

[6233638]

Could you upload a sample track maybe? Unless there's something obvious we're missing, I'm not sure why the DAC is displaying 24-bit with a 16-bit source.
 

...and some HDCD rips which are packaged as 24 bit, and for these the 24 bit light comes on.

For what it's worth, you might want to re-rip these. The DAC should light up both the 16-bit and 24-bit LEDs to indicate that it's 20-bit.
dBpoweramp's HDCD decoder does not produce the proper output if you use the +6dB option for example.

[AndyU]

Could you upload a sample track maybe? Unless there's something obvious we're missing, I'm not sure why the DAC is displaying 24-bit with a 16-bit source.
 For what it's worth, you might want to re-rip these. The DAC should light up both the 16-bit and 24-bit LEDs to indicate that it's 20-bit.
dBpoweramp's HDCD decoder does not produce the proper output if you use the +6dB option for example.

Thanks - just checked and you're right; the 16 and 24 bit lights come on. It's been a long time since I looked.

Happy to try one of the o/ps rips on my machine and DAC if he puts one up. Or vice-versa.

[csx31]

Update...I removed and reinstalled the latest drivers from Benchmark's website.  I unplugged and restarted the DAC2.  I changed out the USB cable to a different one.  Every music file continues to play with the 24-bit LED on.  I went to iTunes and played some files, and unless Apple just converted all their music to 24-bits, the 24-bit LED lights every time.

I played a regular CD through an external player into the DAC2's S/PDIF input, and the 16-bit LED lit for the first time.  16-bit, and 44.1 LED's both were lit, just as they should.

I take the same CD, place it in my computer drive and play through JRiver, and the 24-bit LED is back on.

I believe I have checked every setting in JRiver, and in Windows 7 Sounds.  When I click on the Noire skin's Blue light showing a direct path, the input reads correctly as 44.1, 16-bit.  Yet the DAC2's 24-bit LED always lights.  

AndyU, in answer to your question, when I rip CD's, I do this through JRiver's Drives and Devices.  This does not convert ripped CD's to 24-bits, correct?

I am really puzzled by this.  I thought there may be glitch in the DAC2, but the fact that a CD played through an external drive correctly lights the 16-bit and 44 LED's would indicate that it is working fine.

Thanks again for your replies.  It would be great to resolve this issue.

[AndyU]

How about  ..

- rip a cd in iTunes and play back via iTunes and MC
- rip a cd in dBpoweramp (free 30 day trial)
- download some test tracks from Linnrecords here:
http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-downloads-testfiles.aspx

If you want a track which I know lights the 16bit track on my HGC, I'd gladly send one to you.

[6233638]

It seems like it must either be your rips, or a setting has been overlooked and the output is not bit-perfect, perhaps with volume control happening on the system-level rather than exclusively via the DAC.

[csx31]

I am looking into those areas, thank you.  My volume control is set to "application," and "direct path" and "no changes made" appears with all music played.  I do not believe there is any DSP taking place, as I have looked at every option, and all are unchecked/not active.

All my rips have been done through JRiver.  When you rip a CD in JRiver, is this ripped in 16-bit or 24-bit, and is there a setting to do this?

I have heard dbpoweramp is an excellent ripping program.  Are there sonic benefits to this vs JRiver ripping?  I am tempted to rip a CD through dbpoweramp and see if this comes through as a 16-bit file, and lights the DAC2's 16-bit LED.

[AndyU]

All my rips have been done through JRiver.  When you rip a CD in JRiver, is this ripped in 16-bit or 24-bit, and is there a setting to do this?

I have heard dbpoweramp is an excellent ripping program.  Are there sonic benefits to this vs JRiver ripping?  I am tempted to rip a CD through dbpoweramp and see if this comes through as a 16-bit file, and lights the DAC2's 16-bit LED.

I used dBpoweramp for all my ripping; I don't believe it has any sonic benefits over JRiver, but it is a fair bit quicker, the tag retrieval is more comprehensive (useful especially for classical music), and it has some clever strategies for dealing with dodgy cds. I would certainly try it to see if it gives you a different result. And try FLAC or WAV rips too. Just in case. And dont forget, as I said in a previous post, you can download test tracks of known bit-depths from other sites.  And if you want a copy of a track that lights the 16bit light on my DAC2, just say.

[csx31]

The problem has been solved, thanks to excellent support from Rory at Benchmark, and one of their technical people.  The problem was in the volume mixer settings.  3 sliders were showing with my computer's system tray's speaker icon: Device-Speakers; Applications-System Sounds; and J River Media Center 19.  By disabling "volume" in JRiver (right mouse click on the speaker icon in upper left corner near volume slider, Noire skin screen), the Device and J River sliders in the system tray went to 100%, and the Applications slider went to 0%.  I now control volume through my powered speakers. 

If I am understanding this correctly, when the JRiver volume is low, dither is added at a very low level, and this causes the 24-bit LED to light, and remain on regardless of music file played.

The Benchmark DAC2 now indicates perfectly 16- or 24-bit, and 44, 48, 2x, and 4x file information.

This has been an educational experience in deeply exploring both JRiver setup options, and Windows 7 sound settings.

I am also very pleased with how well music files sound when played through JRiver and the DAC2.

Thanks again to everyone who offered suggestions on finding a solution, this is most appreciated.  Hopefully this experience will help someone else with a similar issue.

 

[AndyU]

Glad youi've sorted it. It is misleading (to some people at least) that the bit perfect blue light comes on even when you are using MCs volume control. I guess they have their arguments. But MC uses 64 bit arithmetic and then dithers the result down to 24 bits - which is why the appropriate lights came on on your DAC2.

I suppose there might even be an argument that MCs 64 bit volume control is "better" than the 32 bit one in the DAC2 - and how you have the output attenuation set on the DAC2 will have an effect also. You could always try setting the DAC2 to bypass, and using MCs control - this can be especially convenient if you want to control everything through JRemote.

Have to say your o/p was a bit misleading in that you said " I use no DSP, and use the volume control of the DAC2, not the Media Center's volume." whereas it seems that you were actually using MCs volume.

[csx31]

Have to say your o/p was a bit misleading in that you said " I use no DSP, and use the volume control of the DAC2, not the Media Center's volume." whereas it seems that you were actually using MCs volume.

I didn't realize that I was using MC's volume control.  The MC blue volume bar next to the speaker icon, upper left corner, always showed full-on, 100%.  Because of that, when I changed volume using the slider in the system tray, I thought I was changing volume through the DAC2.  The blue light indicator showing "direct path, no changes" also reinforced this.

I now use DAC2 in the HT mode, which sets the DAC2's volume control automatically to the 3 o'clock position, and I use the volume control on my powered speakers to adjust volume.

Having 3 volume controls -  JRiver, DAC2, powered speakers - made this confusing re set-up.

[AndyU]

Confusin for sure! If you add in the 3 attenuators settings inside the DAC2 you kinda have four volume controls! Which attenuator setting do you have? 0, -10 or -20? 

[csx31]

Confusin for sure! If you add in the 3 attenuators settings inside the DAC2 you kinda have four volume controls! Which attenuator setting do you have? 0, -10 or -20? 

I left at the factory default, which I believe is -10db.  The manual says that in the 0db setting, the attenuator is disabled.  I wonder if removing the attenuator from the circuit would improve the performance.  Especially if you were controlling volume through the powered speakers.  On the other hand, things are working fine now, and I'm not looking for another issue to deal with.