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Which (if any) of the below proposed "Media Sub Types" would you like to be added to JRiver Media Center?

Animated Movie
Animated TV Show
Animated
Comedy (Video)
Comedy (Audio)
Comedy
Concert
Live Performance
Sports
Sporting Event
Training
Workout
Other... (Reply to poll with suggestion and I"ll add it to the list)
None - They are perfect as they are

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Author Topic: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types  (Read 4111 times)

bzowk

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POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« on: June 02, 2014, 12:01:26 pm »

Hello All!

As I started to use JRiver Media more and more, I was frustrated that I couldn't figure out how to add additional Media Sub Types.  When choosing to create a new one, I could only choose from a list of pre-defined ones.  After searching for a solution, I made a post asking how to do this.  The reply was "Media Sub Type only accepts the preset values.  We will consider additions if there's a consensus."

So... I thought I'd make this Poll listing some types I'd like to see, if others agreed, and if so which they liked.  Each choice listed represents a Media Sub Type which currently does not exist, yet I'd personally use.  Some may be redundant, but I did this on purpose so you could also choose the wording you'd prefer as well.  

Please select any Types which you would potentially like to see to be added in a future release.  If you have a suggestion for one not listed, please post it in this thread and I"ll be happy to add it!

Existing Media Sub Types
Below is a list of all current Media Sub Types in the latest version of JRiver 19...
  • Adult
  • Audiobook
  • Book
  • Educational
  • Home Video
  • Karaoke
  • Movie
  • Music
  • Music Video
  • Other
  • Photo
  • Podcast
  • Radio
  • Remix
  • Ringtone
  • Short
  • Single
  • Stock
  • System
  • Test Clip
  • Trailer
  • TV Show

Thanks!
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Matt

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2014, 02:12:32 pm »

This is a well run poll.  We will add the top vote getters.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

6233638

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2014, 07:45:42 pm »

It was never really clear to me why Media Sub Type only allowed specific values, rather than letting you enter whatever ones suited you.
 
Things like "Animated Movie" and "Animated TV Show" feel like they belong in an "Animated" Genre for their relevant sub type. (Movie/TV Show)
Again; Comedy seems like it should be a genre, and there is no reason to have the separate Audio/Video tags - those are defined by Media Type.
How does "Live Performance" differ from "Concert" and can they not simply fit under the heading of "Music Video" ?'
How do "Sports" and "Sporting Event" differ? Should "Sport" be a sub-type or a genre?
 
 
I was never quite clear on the intent for Media Sub Type though.
A sub type like "Music" I understand, but then why is there also "Single"? Does that not also belong to music? Same thing for remix - especially when "remix" might only apply to a single track on an album.
I've been using tagging for this rather than the Sub Type, which is set to "Music" for all of my music.
 
And now that I think about it, why is there "Music" and "Music Video"? Shouldn't any items that belong in those categories simply be tagged as "Music" for the Sub Type, with the Media Type (Audio/Video) defining whether they are a "Music Video" or not?
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glynor

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2014, 11:44:55 pm »

6233638's points above are well taken.  I can't speak to why it is the way it is, but I can tell you how I use it, and that might shed some light on some of the choices above (and why some of the proposed additions seem redundant).

I use the [Media Sub Type] field to categorize different kinds of a particular [Media Type].  By that, I mean: those which serve different fundamental purposes, or which have a set of characteristics that make them unique from "typical examples".  As 6233638 points out, because you can "stack" different fields on top of the Media Sub Type for a particular file, you don't need the Media Sub Types to be very specific.  But, a TV Show is fundamentally different from a Movie in many ways.  You won't want to browse them using the same sub-categories.

Likewise, Audiobooks are fundamentally different from Music, such that it makes sense to treat them entirely differently.

However, for many items, you can easily "unify" the top-level sub type, and then further subcategorize them via another field.  For me, the usual suspect is [Genre].  If I have a bunch of various "training" and "education" types of recordings, I can lump them all under the existing Educational [Media Sub Type], and then have a "Cooking" genre, a "Programming" genre, or whatever I want within there, to make those into sub-categories.  But, with those types of things, I can pretty easily divide them into [Series] and even sometimes [Seasons], so the "category scheme" I'd want to use with them matches.  So, I just need a "curated" Genre list, and I can keep a variety of Educational videos all in one place.

I can't keep Audiobooks and Music grouped together because they both use [Genre] for other purposes, so that makes sense to have as a distinct [Media Sub Type] (though I don't argue that a separate Book item isn't redundant, but again, "audiobooks" are a well-defined "category" in other applications so perhaps it makes sense in that regard).

Some of your other examples...

Music Videos could certainly be used for both MTV-style single-song produced videos, and for live concert video recordings (equally valid would be using Music as the [Media Sub Type] since [Media Type] is already video).  But these are two fundamentally different things, and if you're looking for one, you're probably not looking for the other.  And, Music Videos are a "thing".

What I do?  I have my small collection of MTV-style music videos tagged as Music Video (small because YouTube makes it basically pointless to collect all but rare ones).  I have my (also reasonably small) collection of Concert videos tagged as [Media Sub Type] Music.  That distinguishes them.  We don't have a Concert Media Sub Type, but that works basically just like one (but with a more vague name so you could jam whatever weird music video you have in there if needed).  Each of those "types" is likely to want to use their own [Genre] set, since Genre is a thing in music.

So... I don't know.

I get these from the voting list above:

* Sports: Again, they're not really TV Shows (they're way longer than most, anyway, and usually not consumed in the same manner), and certainly not Movies.  I don't really record a lot of sports stuff, so when I do, they just get put in as TV Shows.  Sporting Event is the same thing with a different name, and you can use [Genre] to subcategorize them as needed anyway.

* Concert/Live Performance: This could almost be combined with Comedy, except that stand-up Comedy things are often (but not always) going to fall into Series categories, wheras for concerts and other live performances, you probably want [Artist].  But then there's Plays... So, I don't know.  I like the Media Sub Type names to be very short-and-sweet, so I'd say "Live" in any case.  I'm not sure if you really include Concert (which could be under Live and could be still under Music like I do now), but I think it is something that people are likely to collect, and which have a "defined set of traits" that makes them difficult to mix with other media (they have Genres, you browse mostly like Music, etc).

* Comedy: Because stand-up is different from a TV Show and also different from a Movie.  You care about different categories and fields for these. I have these under Other then Genre = Comedy now, though, and that works okay for my needs.  I don't think having separate audio and video comedy choices makes any sense, because we already have [Media Type].  Check that properly if you want them separated.  It could conceivably fall under a more-generic Live Sub Type, along with Concerts and whatnot.

* Workout: I used to keep these under Educational (with cooking shows, my technical training videos, and stuff like that) but my wife could never find them, so now they're stuck in my TV Shows.  She'd like a separate nicely-named category for them.  And what she likes, I like.

Things I don't get:

* The Animated ones.  That's a Genre, and it is even one that auto-populates for you from TMDB (and it is easy enough to set it with Tag On Import rules for other shows).  Separate them using Genre if desired.  I have views that show just kid-friendly shows and movies (and my other ones hide that content) and you don't need fancy Media Sub Types to do it, just filters on Views.

* The Comedy Audio and Video ones noted above.

* Training.  That is Educational.  Use it and add a Genre tier if needed.
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glynor

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2014, 11:48:45 pm »

I should also note, I also don't get the existing Remix Sub Type.
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jmone

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2014, 11:56:57 pm »

I'm pretty comfortable with the current range as they all do what I need, with maybe the exception of adding "Sports" as this to me is a different Media-Sub Type.  As Glynor points out, most of the others could be done by using the Genre. 

From what I remember, when Media Sub types were added they were created as non editable fields as MC used logic for ??Theaterview?? that relied on specific values...
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glynor

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2014, 12:03:52 am »

They've explained a few times, vaguely, why they want them kept as pre-defined.  It isn't worth arguing over, and the compromise was that Matt was going to do this every so often when people came up with small sets of additions that make sense for a variety of people.

That's fair.  (And good job, Matt.)

I think technically, it is something along the lines of that internally they need to (or want to) treat them like an Enum (a static list of constants) rather than as a variable that they have to parse for user-entered content (which does require safety checking and all sorts of "prevent the crazy" stuff).  Maybe it is performance?  Maybe reliability?  Maybe a bit of both mixed with a good helping of over-abundant caution?

Dunno.  That's the deal.
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InflatableMouse

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2014, 12:42:35 am »

From what I remember, when Media Sub types were added they were created as non editable fields as MC used logic for ??Theaterview?? that relied on specific values...

Matt once suggested that choosing the 'Concert' subtype for music videos would make them sound different.

I thought he was pulling my leg.
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fitbrit

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2014, 01:05:13 am »

I'd like to see Stand up Comedy, but I guess that could be a 'Live Performance'
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syndromeofadown

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2014, 01:27:08 am »

I would really like to have "Web-Series"

It would be useful for ongoing series like:
Red letter media: Half in the Bag
Red letter media: Best of the Worst
Red letter media: Plinkett Reviews
Moment Of Clarity
Culture In Decline
Salad Fingers
etc.


"Live Performance" Could be useful for standup comedy because they are not really TV shows or movies. Usually they are TV specials that get released on DVD. Can't say I care much if it's there or not though.


All other suggestions in the poll serve no purpose. Using genre correctly eliminates the need for them. One might argue that animation is a medium and not a genre, but who cares. The scrapers get info from either a TV database or a movie database so it makes sense to those as the subtype.

I always wanted documentary added but since setting up genres correctly I no longer need it. I am now happy it's not an option because I have a cleaner, more well organized library.
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TCube

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2014, 02:11:59 am »

Hum ... Voted
What about "Foreign Movie" as in "Lang." ? or something close.
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connersw

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Re: Re: Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2014, 05:13:43 am »

The scrapers get info from either a TV database or a movie database so it makes sense to those as the subtype.

Bingo--there's the rub.  Stuff like comedy/standup, concerts/live performances, even sports and web series, if they are official releases, need to be Movies (or TV Shows for the web series that are in the DB) for the scraper to work.  I suppose I could see the usefulness if the scraper still worked, but I've already built my Library around the issue by using Genre like everyone else.

Like Glynor, I found the Workout one a bit odd to think of as Educational, but it was the only Media Sub Type that seemed to fit. I've used Expressions to rename these groupings as Instructional in all my Views which seems to make more sense to me and others so that they are easier to find.
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Hendrik

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2014, 05:20:05 am »

Some people touched on that already, but the reason for the fixed Media Sub Types is that some of them alter behaviour in some way. During playback, for info retrivieal, how views are processed, etc.
If it was a custom field, that wouldn't be possible.

I also agree with glynor that a bunch of those in the poll list should probably just be handled by genres. The Sub Type is not meant to  be a replacement for genres, but instead should identify distinct types of media.
Like, Comedy is just a genre of movie or tv show. Animation is a mixed-bag, as animation can either be considered a genre, but then different animated shows have different genres as well, but at the same time it remains a TV Show or a Movie. Could always use two genre values, its a list afterall.

I could get behind a Sport and Concert/Live Performance subtype, and maybe even Workout, as they don't really fit perfectly into anything we have. Technically a concert is a music video, but its still kinda distinctly different, while the genre would identify the type of music.
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6233638

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2014, 06:24:33 am »

Well you won me over with Sports as a sub type. That gets my vote.
I'm still not sure that I like the idea of Concert or "Live Performance".
I don't think I would use it, but I can see where Live Performance would be useful, as you can use that for music or comedy specials etc.
 
I like the suggestion for a Web Series sub type. I have a lot of those and they are simply tagged with "Other" right now, to keep them separate from TV and Movies.
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Matt

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2014, 08:53:13 am »

Next build:
NEW: Added media sub types Sports, Workout, and Concert (Concert will also use center focused mixing).
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

rudyrednose

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2014, 12:48:32 pm »

the reason for the fixed Media Sub Types is that some of them alter behaviour in some way. During playback, for info retrivieal, how views are processed, etc.

Thank you.  I think this would be useful info in the wiki. 
There is no entry for Media Type or Media Sub Type : http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Category:Frequently_Asked_Questions
 
It would be useful to have better visibility in how both Media Type and Media Sub Type bring a difference in MC behaviour.

Cheers,

'nose
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MrC

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2014, 12:52:12 pm »

Maybe you might start collecting and cataloging them, and we can add specific entries where needed.  See also:

   http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Tags#Media_Sub_Type
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connersw

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2014, 02:15:38 pm »

Will you still be able to get Movie & TV Info with the new Media Sub Types?  Currently, things like Diana Krall: Live In Paris and Teton Gravity Research films can be pulled from TMDB with a Movie Sub Type.  I wouldn't want to switch if that feature went away. 
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Hendrik

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2014, 03:59:58 pm »

MovieDB lookups are tied to that subtype. You could change it after looking it up.

Maybe we can also perform it for other subtypes, but that warrants some feasibility checks first, like if there is a useful amount of data for more than a few rare exceptions.
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bzowk

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2014, 06:04:36 pm »

Hey Guys -

Been AFK for a couple of days so just checked on my post.  I'm glad its supported as I didn't want to over step any boundries, but just make a suggestion.  Didn't think it would get as much attention as it has.  I've got a couple of opinions based on what replies I've read...

- I have tried to add items to the list (a couple others were suggested above), but seemingly I can only edit the attached message.  Ill try again in a few minutes.

- Some questioned the redundancy.  I wasn't suggesting they all be added, but just wanted to provide a variety of choices / titles for similar categories.  Wish I had thought of "Stand Up" as that is exactly the target media  i was aiming for (see below)

- I understand that there are tags / other labels which may be used for classification and perhaps should be depending on who you are talking to.  I'm not trying to suggest how the app works; just wanted to see if others wished for a function that I wanted

- Someone mentioned adding "Stand Up" instead of Comedy.  You are right.  The media (audio & video) I planned to add to this category was actually stand up, not comedy films so I agree - "Stand Up" would be much better and if not "Live Performances."  

Question: Is there currently any way to add any Media Sub Types to the left sidebar alongside Movie and TV Show?

Thanks for everyone's time and thoughts!  Ben
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bzowk

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2014, 06:11:32 pm »

This is a well run poll.  We will add the top vote getters.

Matt -

Just wanted to reply to you specifically to say thank you for tagging this post and your interaction with everyone.  I know I'm a new user here and JRiver app/forum newb, but have been enthused by media apps for a while now yet am far from a metadata expert.  Many developers (assuming you are one / the one) fail to listen to feedback so yours is appreciated.

Thanks again!
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connersw

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2014, 07:28:34 pm »

Question: Is there currently any way to add any Media Sub Types to the left sidebar alongside Movie and TV Show?

You can add whatever you would like to the Tree on the left; it is completely open to customization (one of MC's strengths).  Right click on Video -> Add Library View.  You will get a pop-up Window with some starter templates or choose Empty View at the bottom to build your own from scratch.  See:  http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/View_Schemes
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bzowk

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2014, 12:19:43 am »

Great - Thanks!
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MrHaugen

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Re: POLL: Proposed Media Sub Types
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2014, 03:46:05 am »

I voted Concert and Comedy, as those are the only one I don't see as a more or less pure genre choice. Comedy is a genre ofcourse, but I'm talking about breaking out standup and similar from things like movies and TV Shows.
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