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Author Topic: DAC Sound Quality as a Function of Warm Up  (Read 6715 times)

astromo

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DAC Sound Quality as a Function of Warm Up
« on: August 23, 2014, 09:01:15 pm »

Howdy all.

Just spotted this tech paper over at AQ, Evaluation of Digital Devices.

Quote
Listening to a cold digital device (any DAC that has been unplugged for one hour or more) will significantly shortchange the experience and negatively impact the desired outcome. However, a 24-hour warm-up period can – and most often will – significantly improve DAC performance. Moreover, comparisons between a suitably warm DAC and one that is cold can result in invalid findings.

News to me. Sounds like stepping back in time to the age of vac tubes.

Did a search here on Interact and nothing much came up in the scrape, so if I missed prior discussion - apologies.

Anyhoo, any comments from the collection of ears out there as to whether this bit of commentary stacks up?
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natehansen66

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Re: DAC Sound Quality as a Function of Warm Up
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2014, 10:50:28 pm »

I haven't noticed anything like that. I would think if a modern piece of equipment needs warm up time then there's something wrong with it. It's nice to see they have data to back up their position. That said, I'm a speaker guy, and I have no idea what I'm looking at there or what its' significance might actually be. I do know that it's not practical for me to leave my system on all the time.
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Ninouchka

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Re: DAC Sound Quality as a Function of Warm Up
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2014, 07:37:31 am »

With my old Marshall amp, it makes a difference, tubes are a bit old.
But digital? Maybe the coils and condensators of the power supply, but it shouldnt take long.
New for me. gonna read the article.
thanks for the info.
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6233638

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Re: DAC Sound Quality as a Function of Warm Up
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2014, 07:42:57 am »

I doubt the temperature itself matters, it's more likely that temperature stability matters.
This is why some of the really high-end DACs have a temperature-controlled clock, and get very warm when they are on.
 
Personally, I leave my DAC on 24/7 not for performance reasons, but simply because I have found that electronic devices are generally a lot more reliable when they are left on than switched on/off multiple times a day.
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dean70

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Re: DAC Sound Quality as a Function of Warm Up
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2014, 05:19:57 pm »

I experience this with my emo power amps - something about the bias current stabilising once the output stage has reached operating temps. It only takes about 10 mins to warm up.


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Arindelle

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Re: DAC Sound Quality as a Function of Warm Up
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2014, 06:35:08 am »

sorry sceptical about this one --

I doubt the temperature itself matters, it's more likely that temperature stability matters

+1 this makes sense ... unless your system is in the un heated workshed .. how long does it take to go from 20° to what? ...  27°? 10 minutes if that.

Maybe Dragon Fly Dacs sound crappy when they are cold (can't see them comparing with other brands) ;D

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mwillems

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Re: DAC Sound Quality as a Function of Warm Up
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2014, 09:37:36 am »

I'm not sure a single test of a single interface tells us a whole lot, but even assuming that their experimental data is representative and valid, I'm still not sure how well their data supports their hypothesis.  

It's true that their graph shows a pretty sharp decrease in phase noise at 1Hz after warm up.  The issue with that is that no one (not even mojave who has a system that will play flat down to 7Hz) does any listening at 1Hz.  The lower limit of human hearing is around 20Hz and redbook CDs don't generally even include sound below 20Hz for that reason. In lab conditions, humans have successfully detected sounds down to 10 or 12Hz, but that's really the absolute limit in very artificial conditions.  In practice, sounds below 20Hz tend to be felt instead of heard (the "bass hit" in our chests, etc.).  For my part I can't actually even fully hear a 20Hz tone, 25Hz is fine, but I feel a 20Hz tone about as much or more than I hear it, and below that, forget it, I hear nothing but my china rattling even when it's very loud.

So even assuming the validity of their tests, if you look at the portion of the graph at 20Hz and above you'll notice two things: the noise is at -100dB or lower for all categories (which should be very hard to hear), and the four measurements aren't really very far apart at all.  The 1 hour measurement is the outlier, and the 15 minute measurement is indistinguishable from the 24 hour measurement.  The cold measurement's jitter decreases very sharply right at 20Hz.  And that's not really that surprising given that DACs are engineered with the audible band as their primary focus; you'd expect to see the best behavior between 20Hz and 20KHz.  

Experts disagree on the audibility of phase distortion/jitter in general, but based on my own experiments with phase manipulation, I'm inclined to think it is at least potentially audible in the audio band if it's severe/loud enough.  What I'm skeptical of is the detectability or relevance of sub-sonic jitter. Given that sound is not generally audible below 20Hz (and completely inaudible well before we get to 1Hz), for these results to be meaningful, someone would have to be able to "feel" jitter to detect that the fidelity of the sub-sonic rumbling in their home theater is distorted.  I've read arguments that sub-sonic jitter can (through intermod) inject itself into the audible band, but I'd need to see evidence of that, there's no evidence in these graphs.

So color me skeptical, but I'm open to evaluation of additional supporting data.
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AndyU

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Re: DAC Sound Quality as a Function of Warm Up
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2014, 04:13:30 am »

I believe makers of very high quality DACs such as Antelope Audio, MSB and iirc Lavry put the clocks for their DACs in a temperature controlled "oven", so it's quite reasonable to me that at some level the performance of a DAC could change with temperature. How audible that is to how many people is a different issue.
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