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[shAf]

This is an extenuation of the following thread ...

http://www.musicex.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=MediaCenter;action=display;num=1064165957

... but since I upgraded to 9.1 (257), I thought it better to start another.

I notice several things:

(1) I configured recording TV for WMV and "good" compression ... and it works for recording "on the fly", but trying to use MC Scheduler for unattended recording does not pay attention to the recording preference, and instead offers only uncompressed AVI(??)

(2) When recording "on the fly", simply going from full screen to 'internal' (via dbl-clikking the TV display) caused the recording to begin again, and the prior recording was lost(??)

(3) I'll not do this again as I have no use for it, but I entered "webview", and had a helluva time returning to the previous type of display.  It's not intuitive, ... that is, I used a 'right-clik' to access webview, but there's no method of right-clikking out of it.

Other than these observations, v9.1 looks like a great upgrade ... I'll look forward to using it.

tia  

[Yaobing]

but trying to use MC Scheduler for unattended recording does not pay attention to the recording preference, and instead offers only uncompressed AVI(??)

When scheduling your TV recording in Media Scheduler, you need to give it correct file extension. The default is AVI. Change that to WMV when scheduling.

(2) When recording "on the fly", simply going from full screen to 'internal' (via dbl-clikking the TV display) caused the recording to begin again, and the prior recording was lost(??)

I can not reproduce this behavior. Recording continues smoothly in my tests when display mode is changed.

[shAf]

When scheduling your TV recording in Media Scheduler, you need to give it correct file extension. The default is AVI. Change that to WMV when scheduling.

I see ... but this is very misleading, and in need of a fix.

I can not reproduce this behavior. Recording continues smoothly in my tests when display mode is changed.

I'll try again.  I'm sure of what was happening, but I don't believe it was consistent and redily duplicatible ... but once it started happening, it would stop/start the recording everytime I dbl-clikked to "internal", and then dbl-clikked to full screen.  The on-screen display would reset to 0 frames saved, although the elapsed time would not reset.

[shAf]

I experimented a bit again last night, and I am still experiencing major differences between recording on the fly and predetermining the recording with MC Sheduler.

I need to experiment some more and document exactly what I am configuring for, but last night's settings were for "windows media", with all compression settings as 8-9 or 80-90%, or "good".  As you implied, I needed to change the 'AVI' extention to 'WMV' in the MC Sheduler "save as" dialog.

If I record on the fly, the result is what I want ... capable of full screen display and pretty good sound.  If, however, I quit MC9.1 (257) and schedule with MCS, I end up with terribly choppy sound, and an image which fill only 75% of my NTSC TV when "full screen".  It's still a mystery to me why recording with MCS is so much different than recording on the fly within Media Center(?)

I was hoping to figure this out by Sunday eve, so I could schedule for a week's worth of scheduled and unattended recording of Martin Scorsese's documentary The Blues ... but alas, there is always the ATI software.  If there are JRiver compression settings which are tried'n'true (... rather than Windows Media ...), then please feel free to suggest them.

[Yaobing]

Have you made sure that you select appropriate recording profile (the same one you  used for on-the-fly recording)  before scheduled recording?

Again it works fine on my computer.

[shAf]

Have you made sure that you select appropriate recording profile (the same one you  used for on-the-fly recording)  before scheduled recording?

Thanx for your replies and efforts in helping me.  Yes ... I am having my problems ...<g>... but its not entirely my fault.  If I use the MC Scheduler for testing, it then fails to relinguish "TV control" for the sake of getting into the 'advanced options' ... and I have to reboot.  This may have something to do with MC9.1 trying to control my ATI AIW 9700P ... but I don't believe I had the same problem with MC9.0.  (Yaobing, please indicate which TV card you're using).  As it goes, I stand and watch each 'on the fly' recording, trying to grab exactly 36second (which is a hundredth of an hour)

Yaobing states in a previous thread:

I did a quick test, using JRiver Video Codec for video compression, at Quality setting of 7, and video size 640 x 240, and WMA audio compression at 160kbps, a ten minute recording takes up 2 GB for the temp file, and 2 GB for the final destination file. That is about 12 GB / hour

I cannot duplicate this because I cannot find a video Codec with JRiver's name on it ... neither can I seem to find WMA audio compression for 160kbps.

Here are some of my observations after playing with many of the different permutations:

Video in general:
If I ask for res of 640x240, the result is a squashed picture (and the display aspect ratios settings ... 4:3, stretch, etc ... don't seem to affect it).  If I select Windows Media for a WMV file, the resulting picture size is only 640x480 in my 800x600 TV display ... whereas choosing AVI and 640x480 results in a full display.  Playing with WMV versus AVI, the compression is much better for WMV, resulting in ~6-10Gb/hour, whereas, AVI seems to be consistently 10 times that size.  So if I can figure out why WMV will not fill my screen, I might be in business (although see below).

Audio in general:
AVI files give me the best sound, practically indistinguishable from the original ... but this may be a result of the very little commpression I am seeing with AVI.  WMV, on the other hand, yields terrible sound ... not even worthy of any of the compression settings I am experimenting with.  It is very choppy, and full of audio repeats.  I believe something is wrong here, I cannot believe this quality of audio compression is representative of any of the compression settings offered ... and I cannot even get rid of it.

Regarding the compression offerings I see, my video options are:
DV video encoder
Indeo Video 5.10 video compression filter
Cinepac by Radius
Indeo Video 5.10
Microsoft Video 1
ATI YUV12 format codec
ATI YUV12 format codec (yep, 2 instances)
no compression

and for audio:
WMV:
none offered, except for data (e.g., frequency, bit-depth, mono v stereo)

AVI:
(a bunch, many of which fail (i.e., give me an error sound upon selection)
WM Speech encoder
WMaudio encoder
ATI MPEG encoder
IAC2
Learnout & Hauspie CELP
Learnout & Hauspie SBC 8kbps
Learnout & Hauspie SBC 12kbps
Learnout & Hauspie SBC 16kbps
IMA ADPCM
PCM
Microsoft ADPCM
DSP Group Truespeech
GSM 6.10
Microsoft G 723.1
CCITT A-L-aw
CCITT u L-aw
no compression

I have tried almost as many of these as offered, and cannot seem to duplicate anyone's results.  It could be I'm making it harder than it is, but I haven't stumbled onto the right combo yet.  Can anyone see what I'm doing wrong??

[sraymond]

shAf,

To make you life a little easier, I suggest you download a small utility called AVICodec (http://avicodec.duby.info/).  Using this utility, you can take a look at the details of your captured AVI video.

Here's an example of what it will tell you:


In this case, you can see the bitrate for the video is around 600 kbps and the audio is about 100 kbps...  for a total of 700 kbps.  Coverting to MBps, this closely approximated the total file size of 500 MB for 6000 seconds of video.

Again, using this example, you can see that better compression might come from either video or audio.  With some experience, you'll realize what the optimal bitrate for a given codec is.  I find that MP3 audio at 100 kbps sounds just fine for me.  The video will depend mostly on the codec you choose and the aggresiveness of its parameters.

For video, I suggest you try an MPEG4 codec - either DivX or Xvid.  For audio, you might want to start with an MP3 codec.

Remember...  AVI is not a codec - it's a container for a codec.  Based on your list of codecs, it sounds like you're missing some of the best.  AVICodec will also tell you what codecs you have installed on your system.

If you're missing the JRiver codec, you might want to do a search on "Yaobing JRiver codec registry", because I remember he helped me fix a registry problem that prevented me from seing the JRiver codec.

So...  if you let me know what AVICodec gives you for some TV you've captured, I can give you my opinion on how to improve...  but nothing beats trial and error - working on either audio or video at a time.

Scott-

P.S.  I think the noise in your captured video can have a profound effect on the compression performance.

[sraymond]

I did a quick test capturing a VHS input using the Xvid codec...  I got decent results at 630 kbps.  For some reason, the MP3 audio codec resulted in a noticable hiss.  Using the WMV2 audio codec, I got nice results at 160 kbps.

The only problem was deinterlacing, which I can't do via MC 'cause DScalar doesn't support the ATI AIW cards.

The JRiver video codec resulted in a HUGE bitrate...  something like 3500 kbps at a quality of 8.  I'll play a bit more with it and see if there's a reasonable quality/size point.

Scott-

[Yaobing]

I cannot find a video Codec with JRiver's

You may be the second person who have this problem. Somehow JRiver Video Codec failed to register on your computer during registration. You can register them manually.

1. First make sure MJVideoEncoder.ax and MJVideoDeconder.ax are in the TV subfolder, C:\Program Files\J River\Media Center\TV.

2. Run these commands:

regsvr32 "C:\Program Files\J River\Media Center\TV\MJVideoEncoder.ax"

regsvr32 "C:\Program Files\J River\Media Center\TV\MJVideoDecoder.ax"

After doing this you should see "JRiver Video Codec 1.0" in the list of video compressors.

Also, you can download DivX codec from here http://www.divx.com/divx/. They have a free version if you do not want to spend 20 or 50 dollars.

many of which fail (i.e., give me an error sound upon selection)

Some audio codec just can not be connected and I have no way of filtering them out. So I just decided to let users try them and find their best choices by experimenting.

I am using ATI AIW Radeon 8500DV, which is an older model than yours.

[sraymond]

The JRiver codec, even at quality level 0 (which is way unacceptable in terms of quality) is still 550 Kbps for 320x240 at 29.997 fps.  I wonder if anyone else has gotten a reasonable bitrate for an acceptable quality...

JRiver:  What sort of bitrates have you gotten with your codec?

Scott-

[shAf]

Thanx for this information.  I was able to find and install the JRiver codecs, and I have installed the DivX codec as well.

First trial with DivX resulted in a sound track with a bit of a delay.  I used the WMPCM codec, and I wonder if there aren't audio codecs I am missing as well.

The first trial with DivX was "on the fly" and resulted in a very unstable MC display and it was difficult to stop the recording exactly when I wanted to.

Sendond trial with DivX was scheduled, and I watch my TV flash between unrecognizable windows as it records.

Gotta run ... more trials to go ..

thanx again  

[shAf]

The results for JRiver's codec is reasonable for filesize, but I am getting errors upon playback.  It seems to play ok in the small internal window, but if I want full screen I get a  "JRiver Decoder" window error dialog that says:

unknown exception from decoder caught in transform.

Regarding audio codecs, how can I not be offered a MP3 codec??

I was curious about checking out a ATI recording with AVIcodec.  For a 2hr recording, the resulting filesize was less than 8Gb.  The video info implies:

8000kbps, 29.97fps, 720x480

the audio info implies:

224kbps, 48000Hz, 2 channels

Wouldn't this imply JRiver has some work to do?  Am I somehow comparing apples to oranges??

cheerios  

[sraymond]

I was curious about checking out a ATI recording with AVIcodec.  For a 2hr recording, the resulting filesize was less than 8Gb.  The video info implies:

8000kbps, 29.97fps, 720x480

the audio info implies:

224kbps, 48000Hz, 2 channels

Wouldn't this imply JRiver has some work to do?  Am I somehow comparing apples to oranges??

No...  you're not comparing apples to oranges.  In the end, the only thing that matters is file size and video quality.  I think I remember JRiver saying they wrote their own codec because others (I presume Xvid or Divx) were too expensive to license.  So I don't expect the JRiver codec to be as good (or better) than others - but so long as it's in the ballpark, they do us users a great service by not having to worry about installing other codecs.

I think 8000 Kbps is a factor of ten too high for video you want to keep around (i.e. archive).  That's two DVDs instead of a single CD.

The audio isn't too bad, but I think you could do better - though it might not make a significant difference in the final file size.

What codecs do ATI use?  You should be able to use these in MC as well.  What you're processor?  Are you dropping frames while recording?

Have you tried playing your captured video in another player?  You might try nplayer (http://www.samo-systems.cz/index.php?id=470), which is pretty "light" or WMP or ATI's video player.

Keep at it...  

Scott-

[shAf]

What codecs do ATI use?  You should be able to use these in MC as well.  What you're processor?  Are you dropping frames while recording?

Have you tried playing your captured video in another player?  

I'll keep other players in mind ... but ... it would be nice if MC could ...

My CPU is P4/2.4GHZ, and I experience dropping frames only with some codecs ... but I have no idea with ATI recordings.  Would AVIcodec give me this type of info?

The codecs imply MPEG-2 for video and MPEG-1 for audio.  The beauty of ATI recording is ... I select what I want to record and make a choice of "DVD","better","good" & "fair" ... I believe the info I provided before was for "DVD" (... although you have to wonder how they put 2 hours on a single disk ... and all those features too ...<g>...).  The downside is I have to select from what's indicated by the Gemstar EPG, and it is missing some channels here in Newfoundland.

I have no idea how to make the codecs available to ATI also available to MC.

Wth respect to recording with ATI at 8Gb/hour ... how can I reformat them for 2-3hrs/DVD?

[sraymond]

shAf,

Wth respect to recording with ATI at 8Gb/hour ... how can I reformat them for 2-3hrs/DVD?

I've found VitualDub to be the best application for working with encodings.  It only works with VFW codecs - JRiver chokes.  But remember, re-encoding an already lossy encoding just makes things worse.  But it's definately worth a try - the advantage being that you don't have to do it real-time.  But if you've got plenty of CPU horsepower (certainly a P4 2.4 classifies!), you're better of doing it more aggresively on the capture.

I have no idea how to make the codecs available to ATI also available to MC.

I'd have thought they show up on their own...  but maybe not.  I wouldn't worry about it - sticking with an MPEG4 codec would seem to be a good bet.  What's the best you've done with DivX or Xvid?

I'll keep other players in mind ... but ... it would be nice if MC could ...

I agree...  but trying with another player might help you narrow down the problem with replaying.

Scott-

[shAf]

I've found VitualDub to be the best application for working with encodings.

Thanx  for the tip!

What's the best you've done with DivX or Xvid?

Encoding with DivX was a bit of a hassle because the MC display went crazy while it was acquiring.  When I was able to acquire, I never had audio synched with video.

I had the ATI software grab 2 instances of the Scorsese The Blues documentary last night.  Two instances, the latter being a later broadcast because I'm never sure about local broadcasting.  The strange thing was the 1st was acquired with 192kbps audio, and the latter with 224kbps audio ... while both were configured the the same (DVD quality) ... go figure  ?!?   I'll post this curious behavior at the Rage3D forum.

[Yaobing]

Am I somehow comparing apples to oranges??

From consumer point of view, no you are not. But ATI uses MEPG-2 codec which I believe can not be used in AVI container. It would be nice if we can eventually support MPEG-2.

We wrote the JRiver Video Codec so we can:
1. Provide a codec for the users to record without having to install other codec by themselves; and
2. Allow time-shifting to work.

As Scott mentioned, licensing an existing codec is too expensive.

I'll keep other players in mind ... but ... it would be nice if MC could ...

I think what Scott meant was for diagnostic purpose whether you could record and play using another player whereas you could not do in MC. Your computer may have something special that prevents MC from working. If that is the case we would like to know. But often it is hard to diagnose the problem, whether it is a bug in MC or just something on your computer.

Regarding audio codecs, how can I not be offered a MP3 codec??

With regard to audio codecs, all I do is to grab all codecs availabe on your system and compatible with DirectShow. We do not install any audio codec in DirectShow filter form. So my list and your list, and Scott's list of available audio codecs may all be different. Windows includes some audio codecs. Other applications may install some others. I have no idea where the codecs on my machine came from.

Which OS do you have?

It seems to play ok in the small internal window, but if I want full screen I get a  "JRiver Decoder" window error dialog that says:

unknown exception from decoder caught in transform.

I do not know whether this is a bug in the JRiver's codec. It may or may not. But it should not matter whether you play in internal window or in full screen. Maybe it was triggered randomly. When you switch from internal window to fullscreen, did you choose "Desktop resolution"?

[shAf]

... Which OS do you have?

Win2000 (SP4) ... sorry for not posting system info, but I exchange with YABB with my laptop, else I wouldn't be able to read the fine print with my HTPC's NTSC.

I do not know whether this is a bug in the JRiver's codec. It may or may not. But it should not matter whether you play in internal window or in full screen. Maybe it was triggered randomly. When you switch from internal window to fullscreen, did you choose "Desktop resolution"?

Remembering what I tried to read with a right-clik, I was probably asking for "full screen" ... that is, I consistently got the error for several JRiver codec'd AVIs, and got the same error whether I dbl-clikked the TV window, or right-clikked for 'full screen'.  For these 640x240 recordings, the only way I can get the display to correctly stretch vertically is to have the display configured for "aspect ratio = '1.33:1'".  Come to think ... I don't believe I got the error message for a 320x240 JRiver codec'd AVI ... just for 640x240(??)

[Yaobing]

For these 640x240 recordings, the only way I can get the display to correctly stretch vertically is to have the display configured for "aspect ratio = '1.33:1'".  

This is correct behavior. A 640 x 240 video will be displayed as such, unless you tell the program to stretch it back to 4:3 ratio.

Come to think ... I don't believe I got the error message for a 320x240 JRiver codec'd AVI ... just for 640x240(??)

We will investigate.

[sraymond]

I think what Scott meant was for diagnostic purpose whether you could record and play using another player whereas you could not do in MC.

Yes.  I did mean that!

We do not install any audio codec in DirectShow filter form.

Is this another licensing issue?  It might make it easier to have a tried-and-true option for audio...

This is correct behavior. A 640 x 240 video will be displayed as such, unless you tell the program to stretch it back to 4:3 ratio.

Do you use half the resolution as a poor-man's-deinterlacer?  I've always wondered about that...  and half the file size is a nice by-product.

Scott-

[Yaobing]

Is this another licensing issue?  It might make it easier to have a tried-and-true option for audio...

I just have not given it enough thought. All I was concerned was to be able to select an audio compressor in the program. I thought Windows already comes with a number of compressors. (Maybe XP has more available than W2K).

Do you use half the resolution as a poor-man's-deinterlacer?  I've always wondered about that...  and half the file size is a nice by-product.

No. We choose that resolution as a compromise between resolution and CPU usage. At 640 x 480 most CPU would be stretched to limit for on-the-fly compression.