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Author Topic: Low shelf filter for speakers  (Read 3341 times)

harlington

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Low shelf filter for speakers
« on: June 01, 2015, 07:17:21 am »

Hi all,
If I add a +6db low shelf filter centered at 250hz for my left, center and right speakers which are crossovered to my subs at 120hz, does the filter only apply to my speakers and NOT speaker plus subs? I assume the 6db rise ends at 120hz or close to it?  I tried this and thought I heard the added mid bass from my subs. Thanks.
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mwillems

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Re: Low shelf filter for speakers
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2015, 07:21:58 am »

It depends on how you're doing the 120Hz crossover, and what order you're doing things in. 

If you place the shelf after bass redirection in the DSP chain, and you make sure the sub is not selected in the shelf's channel selector, then the shelf should not affect the sub.  If you place the shelf before bass redirection and/or select the sub as a channel on the shelf, then the sub will get the boost too (on at least some of it's content).
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harlington

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Re: Low shelf filter for speakers
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2015, 09:32:18 am »

Sorry, I should mentioned that I use my AVR for bass management and do not select sub for this low shelf in jriver. If I read your comment correctly, only my speakers are affected for this filtter basedon my settings, correct? Thanks.
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mwillems

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Re: Low shelf filter for speakers
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2015, 11:38:41 am »

Sorry, I should mentioned that I use my AVR for bass management and do not select sub for this low shelf in jriver. If I read your comment correctly, only my speakers are affected for this filtter basedon my settings, correct? Thanks.

No, that's not what I'm saying.  Your sub will be affected because you're doing bass redirection after the shelf.  JRiver applies the boost to the speakers, but then later in the signal chain you're doing the crossover and sending the boosted bass from the speakers to the sub.  So the boost will affect the redirected content in the sub channel.  The only way to ensure that the boost doesn't affect the sub channel is to do bass redirection in JRiver before you add the boost.
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harlington

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Re: Low shelf filter for speakers
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2015, 01:29:57 pm »

Help me understand this as the change in jriver occurs before its signal got sent to my AVR, so the boost on my speakers assuming the subs also got boosted in jriver (which is another question: why the subs got boosted if LS filter was applied to speakers only, the sub was not checked in this LS filter) will be crossovered by my AVR setting: small/120hz no? Thanks.
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mwillems

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Re: Low shelf filter for speakers
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2015, 01:45:10 pm »

Help me understand this as the change in jriver occurs before its signal got sent to my AVR, so the boost on my speakers assuming the subs also got boosted in jriver (which is another question: why the subs got boosted if LS filter was applied to speakers only, the sub was not checked in this LS filter) will be crossovered by my AVR setting: small/120hz no? Thanks.

Yes, the change occurs before the signal goes to your AVR.  That's the problem.  The AVR can only re-reoute what you send to it, and if you modify the left and right speaker before sending it, any modifications will get re-routed too.  Adding boost to the speakers before bass management will always boost the sub whether you select it or not, because you're boosting the material before you feed it to the AVR.

A shelf filter stops rising at a certain frequency, but all frequencies below it are also boosted.  So your shelf may stop rising around 120Hz (depending on the Q), but all frequencies from 120Hz on down to 0 are still boosted +6dB.  So when your AVR re-routes the bass from your speakers, it's re-routing the boosted bass, which means the bass from your speakers in your sub will be +6dB louder than it used to be, and +6dB louder than the native LFE content. 

Imagine that the normal volume of the bass you redirect from your speakers at 100Hz is 30dB, which gets redirected by your AVR to the Sub and added to the LFE.  You've added 6dB of boost to material at 100Hz and below, which means the redirected bass from your speaker is now 36dB when it gets added to the LFE.  That will not only make your sub louder, it will change the relative composition (speaker bass will sound louder than LFE bass, etc.). 

If you want to do bass management as your last step, there's no way to do what you're doing that will work the way you want.  You need to do bass management in JRiver before the shelf to have full control over this kind of thing.

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harlington

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Re: Low shelf filter for speakers
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2015, 03:31:02 pm »

Got it. Thanks for a great explanation. Is it better to do bass management within jriver? If so, I assume I need to set all my speakers to large in my AVR, correct?
If I do not have bass management in jriver and keep it at the AVR, can I just add a low pass filter at 120hz on the sub channel in jriver before my speakers LS filter? Thanks again.
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mwillems

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Re: Low shelf filter for speakers
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2015, 06:08:54 pm »

Got it. Thanks for a great explanation. Is it better to do bass management within jriver?

If you want flexibility to do the kinds of changes you're describing, yes.

Quote
If so, I assume I need to set all my speakers to large in my AVR, correct?

If you're doing bass management in JRiver, ideally you'd turn it off altogether.  Most AVR's have a "direct" mode or something like that.

Quote
If I do not have bass management in jriver and keep it at the AVR, can I just add a low pass filter at 120hz on the sub channel in jriver before my speakers LS filter? Thanks again.

No that wouldn't work because the boost hasn't been added to your sub channel yet at that point.  That's happening in your AVR.  Do you see the issue?  Because your bass management is happening in the AVR (the last step), you can't really do anything about it in JRiver.  You add the boost to the speakers, and it doesn't go into your sub channel until it gets to your AVR, so you can't fix it in advance without undoing your shelf.
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harlington

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Re: Low shelf filter for speakers
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2015, 08:55:47 pm »

If you want flexibility to do the kinds of changes you're describing, yes.
what about sound quality, say I only have bass management in jriver v.s on my AVR without any other filter in jriver?
If you're doing bass management in JRiver, ideally you'd turn it off altogether.  Most AVR's have a "direct" mode or something like that.
I have a Denon X4000 7.2 AVR and do not recall an option to turn off bass management beside setting speakers to large
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