Topic: Subtitles... (Read 15939 times)

ldoodle · « **on:** June 02, 2015, 10:27:29 am »

Hey,

Am bashing my way through Breaking Bad at the moment. Currently on Season 3. I do complete disc rips and use particles to break out the episodes.

Episode 3 has some foreign dialogue and I wasn't getting subtitles. So used the OSD to get to the subtitles option and there were 4 options:

off
vobsub
vobsub
vobsub

Err, what the...? So chose each one until I got the right one. But then it carried on showing them, even for English dialogue.

How do I get it so it only shows them for the foreign dialogue? Also, why does it not show the language? I was expecting:

off
Spanish
English
Japanese

because that's what they ended up being. And how comes it doesn't show them by default for foreign dialogue, like a normal DVD/BD player or games console would?

Thanks

Hendrik · « **Reply #1 on:** June 02, 2015, 10:41:00 am »

Complete Disc Rips of DVDs with Particles do not have the information about the language of the streams, its a limitation of the DVD format really. You would be much better advised to rip individual episodes to MKV and properly tag the languages in there.
MakeMKV, for example, also has an option to separate "forced" subs (ie. foreign parts) and full subs into separate streams.

You can probably get a desired result if you play the DVD disc using the menu navigation, ie. don't use particles. Then you get to navigate through the menu just like a normal DVD player would, and the menu has the language information.

ldoodle · « **Reply #2 on:** June 02, 2015, 11:07:05 am »

Can particles be given the info about the language (even if manually)?

Thinking about it, once I've got the particles created, I tag them in the usual way (with season number, episode number etc.) then do Get Movie and TV info. If I had MKV files I'd do exactly the same process so how comes an MKV file can be tagged with the language info but a particle file can't?

I don't fancy re-ripping all my TV shows to single files (I'll never know what ones have foreign dialogue until I watch them so I'll have to do them all).

The menu navigation is all well and good for DVDs, but what about Blu's? I don't really fancy having one type of rip for X and a different type of rip for Y.

Hendrik · « **Reply #3 on:** June 02, 2015, 11:09:19 am »

We do not support storing such kind of extra metadata with particles, sorry.
The reason it would work with a MKV is that the language info is included in the MKV itself, not in MC.

And for Blu-rays, we do actually support reading the stream languages from a full disc rip. You might run into a similar problem of having to figure out which stream has the foreign language parts only though.

Only performing a full rip and checking these things during the rip can ensure a no-frills playback afterwards, IMHO.

ldoodle · « **Reply #4 on:** June 02, 2015, 11:19:27 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on June 02, 2015, 11:09:19 am

We do not support storing such kind of extra metadata with particles, sorry.

Is there a technical limitation (i.e. it's just not possible), or is possible but hasn't been thought of?

I know the particles feature is not really 'pushed' by JRiver, but I think it's easily one of the best features and should be given much more attention.

Hendrik · « **Reply #5 on:** June 02, 2015, 11:21:04 am »

We do not support any kind of per-stream info in any MC database field, so currently its more of a technical limitation, especially since the during-playback info is entirely independent of MCs database.

I would greatly advise to re-think your storage strategy instead, and if only for new rips.
DVD disc/folder rips are a very stubborn format and often you will even have problems like it not finding the subtitles at all (because they don't occur until later in the file, and it wouldn't scan the entire thing, especially for foreign-language-only subs, which may only occur at very few spots in the movie).

Once you start manually tagging things like stream language, you might as well quickly convert it into a new format that natively holds the stream languages anyway. That way the information will also be available to any other kind of playback software, should that need ever arise.

ldoodle · « **Reply #6 on:** June 02, 2015, 11:31:33 am »

Thanks.

Before I knew of JRiver, I just used the native Windows Media Center for disc playback. Back then, this was no good with MKV files and subtitles, hence I stuck to full disc rips.

With JRiver, do any such problems exist? I.e. if I ripped a film like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon to MKV using MakeMKV, the whole film is subtitled so how do/would I know which subtitle track to select in MakeMKV.

Like wise, for a film like Lord of the Rings, where only the Elves and Orks need subtitling, what do I do.

Basically, when I play something in JRiver, I don't ever want to have to fiddle with options, OSDs, right click menus etc. to have it how I need. I want an experience like I'm playing the real disc in a proper disc player.

Thanks again!

ldoodle · « **Reply #7 on:** June 02, 2015, 11:33:21 am »

This just looks so complicated!

ldoodle · « **Reply #8 on:** June 03, 2015, 02:04:00 am »

Is there a 'given' as to which subtitle track to use if there's multiple listed for the same language?

Do I use the one MakeMKV flags as 'Default'?

Hendrik · « **Reply #9 on:** June 03, 2015, 02:30:54 am »

What I would usually do is give it a quick preview which of those tracks is which. Either, one of those is normal subs and one is SDH, or one of those is normal subs and one is forced/foreign only. With DVDs it seems to be somewhat rare to have a dedicated foreign sub track, though.

ldoodle · « **Reply #10 on:** June 03, 2015, 03:28:41 am »

How do I preview which is which? Also, what's the difference between 'normal' and SDH.

Interestingly, Season 3 only has one listing for English subs - this screenshot is from Season 4. Bit strange how each season has different options???

Hendrik · « **Reply #11 on:** June 03, 2015, 03:32:15 am »

SDH is subtitles for the deaf or hard-of-hearing. And by preview I mean just quickly open the file in a player and see!

ldoodle · « **Reply #12 on:** June 03, 2015, 05:40:38 am »

Can I do that without ripping to MKV first? I don't want rip with the wrong one (or with both), then have to rip again once I know!

Sorry to be a pain!

ferday · « **Reply #13 on:** June 03, 2015, 09:33:22 am »

There are quite a few freeware subtitle utilities out there that can do a lot, it might be as simple as reading the file quickly, they are just text.

I can't remember which one I use, I'm not at my PC, but I sometimes will convert an image (vobsub) to an editable text (srt) since you can change fonts and even edit bad text if inclined

Point being that you could probably find one that offers a quick glance at the file and add to your workflow

ldoodle · « **Reply #14 on:** June 04, 2015, 08:42:05 am »

I'm still missing something, surely.

I ripped Title 2 from Breaking Bad Season 3, Disk 2 DVD (so actually episode 6) using MakeMKV (as per the attached screenshot).

This resulted in an MKV file that had subtitles on by default for the whole episode, not just foreign dialogue. If I turn off subtitles, I get nothing at all, not even for foreign dialogue.

By default, the selected English subtitle track has "MKV Flags: Default", so I changed this so it wasn't 'Default' any more and re-ripped. This just reversed the problem: no subtitles at all when playing the MKV, and if I select the subtitle track, I get the whole episode subtitled.

I tried playback in VLC too, and the same problem occurs, so it must be to do with what I'm doing.

ldoodle · « **Reply #15 on:** June 05, 2015, 04:57:08 am »

Quote from: ldoodle on June 04, 2015, 08:42:05 am

I'm still missing something, surely.

Anyone?

Hendrik · « **Reply #16 on:** June 05, 2015, 09:14:41 am »

Its been a long time since I ripped DVDs, I haven't purchased any new ones for a couple years now, but MakeMKV used to have an option to split DVD subtitle tracks into normal and forced subs, just like it does for Blu-ray (and that option is still there, I use it frequently).
Maybe my mind is getting foggy, and it was another tool which can do that? Maybe someone else is more up-to-date on DVD ripping..

ldoodle · « **Reply #17 on:** June 05, 2015, 10:05:48 am »

My library is probably 80:20 DVD:Blu!

CountryBumkin · « **Reply #18 on:** June 05, 2015, 11:17:26 am »

You might want to check out the makeMKV forum for tips on how to use the program. I recall reading that makeMKV has issues with forced subtitles and you have to go in an edit the header. http://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=737d0ee8f55a67ee3b54df9518107a92

I use the program CloneDVD by slysoft (maker of AnyDVD) unfortunately it's not free - but it works well and easy to use. If you are going to continue buying/ripping DVDs you may want to consider it as last resort (if you can't get makeMKV to work).
http://www.slysoft.com/en/clonedvd.html

I'll see if I can find the post/instructions on the makeMKV forum dealing with getting subtitles to work properly/
EDIT - Oh, I see you already posted there and started a discussion.

Is it possible for you upload a copy of the problem disk (maybe Dropbox) so someone smarter (than me) can take a look?

ldoodle · « **Reply #19 on:** June 08, 2015, 12:49:40 pm »

Quote from: CountryBumkin on June 05, 2015, 11:17:26 am

Is it possible for you upload a copy of the problem disk (maybe Dropbox) so someone smarter (than me) can take a look?

Do you mean upload a complete rip? That will take ages!

CountryBumkin · « **Reply #20 on:** June 08, 2015, 01:43:10 pm »

Well, yes - that's what I was thinking. Idea being that someone would be able to see exactly what your working with and help you with it. A complete DVD rip is not any bigger than downloading something like Win10 Preview. I suppose the time it takes depends on your internet speed.

However, I'm not sure if my suggestion is "legal". I mean you would be providing a complete copy to someone who hasn't paid for it. So maybe it's better if you don't.

mwillems · « **Reply #21 on:** June 08, 2015, 02:01:24 pm »

I think part of the problem people are trying to explain is that some discs just don't do a very good job of setting up forced subtitles because there is no standard. Most disks I've encountered that have forced subtitles have a separate "english" subtitle track with just the forced subs. This is true of most of the movies I've seen. Some disks have the forced subtitles baked onto the screen so no subtitle track is necessary, e.g. elven dialog in the U.S. version of the Lord of Rings EE DVDs. Some disks have forced subtitles in a "main" subtitle track, but flagged as forced (which Makemkv can separate out). And sometimes disk authors just don't bother and assume that people will sort it out from context.

So the answer is that the approach to take depends on the disk you have. If your disk is only showing one english subtitle track and no sub-option for a separate "forced" subtitle track, that means the disk author probably didn't actually bother flagging the subs as forced, which means that the forced subs would probably not work correctly in any player.

Have you tried this disc with an ifo full-disc rip or a normal DVD player? Do the forced subs work correctly? (I'd be surprised if they do).

astromo · « **Reply #22 on:** June 08, 2015, 04:00:12 pm »

Manipulating subtitles, audio tracks and chapters with MKV files is pretty straight forward with MKVToolNix

Using this tool, it's easy for the user to set defaults and forces for audio and subs via a GUI. It's possible to suck in a text subtitle file (e.g. SRT) and effectively hard code it. It's also relatively easy to strip subs or audio that aren't required. The software transcodes the streams, so there's no (to my knowledge) quality loss of video or audio in the process.

I'd add that the MKVToolNix has a batch mode, so you can line up a number of processes, hit the go button and walk away to do something else.

I know it's a pain to deal with another tool but that's what works for me if I have to tidy up a MakeMKV rip.

ldoodle · « **Reply #23 on:** June 09, 2015, 03:57:27 am »

Quote from: mwillems on June 08, 2015, 02:01:24 pm

Have you tried this disc with an ifo full-disc rip or a normal DVD player? Do the forced subs work correctly? (I'd be surprised if they do).

Well originally I've always done full disc folder rips, then use particles which I now know won't work (Hendrik's response above). I haven't tried playing back the actual full disc rips using the DVD menus - I'll try that tonight.

The disc works fine in the PS3 with "forced" subtitles. I will also double check this tonight. I don't have a traditional DVD player to test on.

mwillems · « **Reply #24 on:** June 09, 2015, 07:43:53 am »

Quote from: ldoodle on June 09, 2015, 03:57:27 am

Well originally I've always done full disc folder rips, then use particles which I now know won't work (Hendrik's response above). I haven't tried playing back the actual full disc rips using the DVD menus - I'll try that tonight.

The disc works fine in the PS3 with "forced" subtitles. I will also double check this tonight. I don't have a traditional DVD player to test on.

A PS3 is fine, that's what I was trying to determine was whether any player was successfully able to disentangle the forced from the unforced subs. So it looks like they're flagged in a way that MakeMKV can't seem to parse, which is unusual in my experience. Hopefully someone else can weigh in on that.

ldoodle · « **Reply #25 on:** June 09, 2015, 01:05:11 pm »

OK, I was wrong.

Just put the disc in my PS3 and played it... don't get subtitles either unless I put subtitles on, which then has them for the whole episode.

This has got to be a wind/cock up surely? How are you supposed to understand what they're saying!

mwillems · « **Reply #26 on:** June 09, 2015, 01:12:36 pm »

Quote from: ldoodle on June 09, 2015, 01:05:11 pm

OK, I was wrong.

Just put the disc in my PS3 and played it... don't get subtitles either unless I put subtitles on, which then has them for the whole episode.

This has got to be a wind/cock up surely? How the hell I are you supposed to understand what they're saying!

Regrettably that sounds like a disk authoring problem which no software will be able to fix in an automated way. They either did it deliberately, or goofed it up and didn't care to fix it. I recommend you look into the solutions provided by Astromo above for manually creating a custom subtitle track.

I know that's not the answer you wanted, but this is the kind of thing that happens when there are no standards $:-\$

ldoodle · « **Reply #27 on:** June 09, 2015, 01:21:14 pm »

Can someone with a Netflix account quickly watch the last scene of this episode for me and confirm if the foreign dialogue is subtitled?

Could it be that it's supposed to be like this?

Hendrik · « **Reply #28 on:** June 09, 2015, 01:32:58 pm »

Quote from: ldoodle on June 09, 2015, 01:21:14 pm

Can someone with a Netflix account quickly watch the last scene of this episode for me and confirm if the foreign dialogue is subtitled?

Could it be that it's supposed to be like this?

Assuming we're still talking S03E06, the boss guy speaking spanish to the two dudes? My Blu-ray has forced subs.

If you have a full subtitle track, you can usually see if a scene with foreign audio is meant to be subtitled or not, ie. if the full subtitles just say "[Speaking Spanish]", then forced subs will of course also not contain a translation.
But if the full subs contain clear text, then the forced subs also should!

mwillems · « **Reply #29 on:** June 09, 2015, 01:39:57 pm »

Looking at the amazon reviews for the third season of breaking bad it looks like the U.S. DVD release doesn't even have an English subtitle track at all much less forced subs!

ldoodle · « **Reply #30 on:** June 09, 2015, 03:00:55 pm »

Quote from: Hendrik on June 09, 2015, 01:32:58 pm

Assuming we're still talking S03E06, the boss guy speaking spanish to the two dudes? My Blu-ray has forced subs.

Yes that's the one.

Quote from: Hendrik on June 09, 2015, 01:32:58 pm

ie. if the full subtitles just say "[Speaking Spanish]", then forced subs will of course also not contain a translation.
But if the full subs contain clear text, then the forced subs also should!

No, that's not what's happening. If I turn on full subs, I get proper translation, not the [Speaking Spanish] malarky.

ldoodle · « **Reply #31 on:** June 09, 2015, 03:23:18 pm »

http://movies.stackexchange.com/questions/11198/why-dont-they-show-subtitles-for-the-spanish-dialogues

??

Hendrik · « **Reply #32 on:** June 09, 2015, 03:26:22 pm »

Sounds to me like the DVDs are just terrible.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #33 on:** June 09, 2015, 07:35:22 pm »

I think it is time to find a source of forced subtitles and add them to your rips.

Maybe http://breakingbad.wikia.com/wiki/Sunset_subtitles

ldoodle · « **Reply #34 on:** June 10, 2015, 04:23:43 am »

Quote from: RoderickGI on June 09, 2015, 07:35:22 pm

I think it is time to find a source of forced subtitles and add them to your rips.

Maybe http://breakingbad.wikia.com/wiki/Sunset_subtitles

Thanks. If I use that though, that looks like the whole episode's subs, not just the "forced" bits?

ldoodle · « **Reply #35 on:** June 10, 2015, 05:39:38 am »

How does the 'sidecar' subtitle file work? I'm wondering rather than ripping the episodes without any subs, then adding them back in to the MKV file, I use the sidecar subtitle file option instead so I can just drop the files in as I realise a tv show or film needs them.

For example, I'm about to start ripping Season 4. I haven't seen all of Breaking Bad before so I have no idea if any of Season 4's episodes have foreign dialogue, so I could spend ages hunting around and merging in forced only subtitle files when I might not need them!

"Sidecar subtitle files must start with the same name as the video filename. They can optionally contain any suffix to describe the language, etc. Then they must be terminated with a known extension like .srt or .sub."

So if my filename is 'Episode 01.mkv' the .srt file should be named 'Episode 01.mkv.srt' or just 'Episode 01.srt'

?

RoderickGI · « **Reply #36 on:** June 10, 2015, 06:39:00 am »

Quote from: ldoodle on June 10, 2015, 04:23:43 am

Thanks. If I use that though, that looks like the whole episode's subs, not just the "forced" bits?

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that site had the answer. It was just an example site i found in a quick search. There are quite a few subtitle source sites on the web though, so one or more may have the forced only subtitles. Start searching!

My quick search found this one that looks promising: http://www.subtitles.at/breaking+bad+forced
Some of those sites are a bit dodgy though, so scan the downloads for viruses!

If I was doing what you are doing, I would use sidecar subtitles. Much easier to implement. There is a Wiki article here and as you will see a range of sidecar subtitles are supported.

PS: I just looked at the Wiki article again, and that particular article doesn't mention that the timing of subtitles can be changed during playback. So if you didn't know this, search the Wiki and Forum for instructions.

glynor · « **Reply #37 on:** June 10, 2015, 06:43:30 am »

Quote from: RoderickGI on June 10, 2015, 06:39:00 am

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that site had the answer. It was just an example site i found in a quick search. There are quite a few subtitle source sites on the web though, so one or more may have the forced only subtitles. Start searching!

My quick search found this one that looks promising: http://www.subtitles.at/breaking+bad+forced

I remember I found forced subs for my copy of that episode.

ldoodle · « **Reply #38 on:** June 10, 2015, 07:01:21 am »

Quote from: RoderickGI on June 10, 2015, 06:39:00 am

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that site had the answer.

Thanks. With the sidecar files, will I always need to turn on subs, or is there a setting that will check for .srt/.sub files and auto enable if found?

From what I understand, DVD does not have a 'forced' subtitle track (like Blu does), but rather parts of a complete subtitle track are marked as 'forced', and the player knows where the markers are so turns them on/off as needed.

Is that right? If so, couldn't JRiver (and other players) replicate what a player is doing to 'see' the forced markers of a subtitle track. Then I could just rip with English subs and be done with it. Dare I say the ones online might not be accurate if they're Joe Public authored?

RoderickGI · « **Reply #39 on:** June 10, 2015, 07:18:10 am »

Quote from: ldoodle on June 10, 2015, 07:01:21 am

Thanks. With the sidecar files, will I always need to turn on subs, or is there a setting that will check for .srt/.sub files and auto enable if found?

From what I understand, DVD does not have a 'forced' subtitle track (like Blu does), but rather parts of a complete subtitle track are marked as 'forced', and the player knows where the markers are so turns them on/off as needed.

Is that right? If so, couldn't JRiver (and other players) replicate what a player is doing to 'see' the forced markers of a subtitle track. Then I could just rip with English subs and be done with it.

You are correct. MC will honor forced subtitles if they are marked in a subtitle track. I have used them, but forget the details. Silly me. I think you turn off subtitles while playing a show, but have to have the correct settings in Options for the forced subtitles to show, such as Subtitle Language, Program Language, or something like that. I am not near a PC with MC to check.

However, for that to work, you have to have the subtitles file with the forced subtitles marked. The subtitles on the first site I linked to did not have forced subtitles marked. Again, I forget how forced subtitles are marked, but a quick Google will find the format.

MC will find the subtitle files and use them, and remember for each show which subtitles you used.

Quote from: ldoodle on June 10, 2015, 05:39:38 am

So if my filename is 'Episode 01.mkv' the .srt file should be named 'Episode 01.mkv.srt' or just 'Episode 01.srt'

?

The subtitle file name would be "Episode 01AnySuffixYouWantToAddToTheName.srt"

ldoodle · « **Reply #40 on:** June 10, 2015, 07:45:53 am »

Does JRiver support using the word 'Forced' in the subtitle filename to force them on even if the settings say never show subtitles?

Kodi, apparently does: http://kodi.wiki/view/subtitles#Using_Forced_Subtitles

ldoodle · « **Reply #41 on:** June 10, 2015, 08:18:44 am »

Quote from: RoderickGI on June 10, 2015, 07:18:10 am

You are correct. MC will honor forced subtitles if they are marked in a subtitle track.

Thinking about this a bit more, let's say I have various language subtitles as external .srt files, which are complete subtitles. I won't want these on by default, but I would want 'forced' subtitles on by default all of the time.

How would JRiver know the difference between forced and non-forced subtitles if there is no identification in the subtitle file? I think this is why Kodi accepts the 'forced' word in the subtitle filename.

Also, if I did have both forced and non-forced subtitle files... how would I name them?

Episode 01.eng.srt
Episode 01.eng.forced.srt

? Would JRiver then distinguish between them and list them in the Subtitles dialog menu/OSD, or just choose whichever one is found first?

RoderickGI · « **Reply #42 on:** June 10, 2015, 08:39:00 pm »

That subtitle file naming convention is used by Kodi. Plex use something very similar. I haven't looked at the Kodi wiki but I believe forced subtitles would actually be named;

Episode 01.en.forced.srt OR Episode 01.english.forced.srt

from what I have read. That is how Kodi and Plex set subtitle flags for external subtitles; by structuring the subtitle file name.

As per the JRiver Wiki and my example, MC does not seem to use structured subtitle file names to indicate language and type. i.e. Forced or Default. To use an external subtitle file with MC, it should be named;

Episode 01*.srt Where * is any identifier you want to use, but not a flag such as "forced" or "default".

If someone knows different, please speak up.

However, Matt did say back in the release notes of 20.0.138

Quote

19.0.138 (6/5/2014)
8. Changed: Sidecar subtitles will have a higher priority if the name of the sidecar exactly matches the name of the file.

So if you name the subtitle file exactly "Episode 01.srt", it should be given priority.

I am still looking into using external srt files, and how to flag them as forced English subtitles. I think I have deleted the examples I have had previously. Can't find them.

But for you, as you are using MKV files anyway, and you now have srt files of the forced English subtitles only, from the site I linked to above, why don't you just use MKVmerge to merge the srt subtitles into the video (NOT re-encode the video), and flag them as English and Forced during the merge.

Here are some very good instructions on how to do that: http://madaboutbrighton.net/articles/encode-forced-subtitles-using-mkvmerge

There instructions are for using the command line, but I believe it can be done through the GUI as well.

glynor · « **Reply #43 on:** June 10, 2015, 09:54:49 pm »

It can be done through the MKVmerge GUI. That's what I always do. Open the source video. Drop the srt file onto the input tracks area. Merge.

It takes seconds, and you can set whatever default you want.

ldoodle · « **Reply #44 on:** June 11, 2015, 04:05:58 am »

Quote from: RoderickGI on June 10, 2015, 08:39:00 pm

why don't you just use MKVmerge to merge the srt subtitles into the video

I am considering that, so the MKVs are portable (holidays etc.).

My concern is that as they're not official forced subtitle tracks the author could purposely ruin them (change timings/text etc.). At least with an external file I can always directly edit them without having to always merge them back.

RoderickGI · « **Reply #45 on:** June 11, 2015, 06:59:13 am »

I think putting the subtitles into MKV files, if you are already using that format, and flagging them as forced is probably the best idea. It is pretty easy to find subtitles for the type and source of video files you may come across. For example subtitles for DVD rips are common.

I did a little research on the srt format, and it seems I was wrong in thinking subtitles in that format could be flagged within the srt file. There is no support for that in the somewhat poorly documented standard. I must have been thinking of one of the other formats.

Anyway, I have wanted to add some external subtitles to some non-MKV files I have though, so I would test the current MC functionality with a copy of Breaking Bad S03E06, since we know it has forced subtitles.

Disappointingly, the documented format for use with MC, "[Name]*.srt" doesn't work. The external srt based subtitles only showed up in MC when the name of the srt file exactly matched the video name, at least when using an AVI video format. I assume that the video format would not effect the external subtitles functionality though. I didn't test using a subfolder for subtitles though. Maybe a little more testing when I get the time.

Because of that result, testing using ".en.forced" as a suffix on the file was bound to fail, and it did. So either something has broken along the way, or the Wiki is incorrect.

Anyway, it sounds like you have a solution using MKV files, while I still need to do some work for a bunch of AVU, FLV, and other odd video file types.

INTERACT FORUM

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