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[mojave]

I've been working this weekend setting up a home theater that is using JRiver for all media playback. The owner has an anamorphic lens for his Sony projector. There are two ways of handling this right now:

1.  Let the projector do the vertical stretch when it detects 2:35:1 or 2:40 movies. It only stretches the video area so you lose the JRiver OSD.

2.  Let JRiver do the vertical stretch. Currently you have to manually right click the movie when it is playing, select Window > Stretch and also select Window > Crop Black Bars > Video within back bars is 2:40:1. This method maintains the OSD and is preferred. You also get the high quality madvr resizing.

#2 is very cumbersome and isn't easy for kids or other family members to use. What would be ideal is to have Tools > Options > Video > Advanced have settings for aspect ratios that automatically work depending on the actual aspect ratio of the visible portion of the video.

There is Aspect Ratio Correction under Video > Advanced, but it doesn't do a vertical stretch.

[mojave]

The OSD in Display View has an Aspect Ratio option. You can't select both Stretch and Crop Black Bars 2.40 (or any other aspect ratio). You can only select one or the other.

You can select both Stretch and Crop Black Bars with a right click and Window options, but not at the same time. You can use them at the same time, just not select them at the same time.

[6233638]

If you're using a remote, the simplest solution I can think of would be to enable aspect ratio correction set to 2.40:1 and aspect ratio mode set to "no change".
 
You could bind keys to:

Code: [Select]

MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 0
MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5
This would toggle between no correction (16:9 and 4:3 content) and cropping letterboxed films.
Use -1 if you want a single button to act as a toggle to cycle through all the options.
 
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Center_Core_Commands#Playback_Engine
 
If you are using madVR, you probably want to reduce the queue size to make this more responsive.
With it set to 128, there's a delay of a couple of seconds between the horizontal and then vertical scaling being applied.

[mojave]

If you're using a remote, the simplest solution I can think of would be to enable aspect ratio correction set to 2.40:1 and aspect ratio mode set to "no change".
 
You could bind keys to:

Code: [Select]

MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 0
MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5
This would toggle between no correction (16:9 and 4:3 content) and cropping letterboxed films.
Use -1 if you want a single button to act as a toggle to cycle through all the options.
 
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Center_Core_Commands#Playback_Engine
 
If you are using madVR, you probably want to reduce the queue size to make this more responsive.
With it set to 128, there's a delay of a couple of seconds between the horizontal and then vertical scaling being applied.

Thanks for the suggestions. Cropping letterbox films isn't what is done for an anamorphic lens. It needs a vertical stretch. The horizontal pixels stay the same, but you scale the image vertically to use all pixels available. You aren't discarding any of the picture. The core command idea is a good one, but there isn't a proper command available that I can find for this combo:

1.  Window > Stretch (you can choose stretch or crop and these commands work with Window > Crop Black Bars)
2.  Window > Crop Black Bars 2.40

A keyboard shortcut might be easier than the current method, but the theater owner is using JRemote for complete control. Can JRemote have custom buttons?

It would be more elegant if it was just handled automatically. If the projector can detect the actual aspect ratio of the video area, I would think LAV Filters would also detect this. Maybe Hendrick can comment more on whether this is possible. I know it used to be detected by Theatertek back when I used that program.

[Hendrik]

LAV has no concept of actual video area, nor should it. It processes whatever image was encoded, if that contains black bars, so be it.
Of course it knows the aspect ratio of that image, including black bars, and on for example Blu-rays thats just always 16:9, so no point in knowing really.

I heard rumors that madshi was working on some things for madVR for such use cases, maybe he will automate something like this.

[mojave]

I see that Video > Advanced > Aspect Ratio Mode has Stretch as one of its options. This works in conjunction with "Crop Black Bars 2.40" that is done on a per video basis. If "Crop Black Bars 2.40" (and other aspect ratios) could be added to Video Advanced mode then ZoneSwitch rules could be used to switch between movies tagged 16:9 and those tagged 2.35 or 2.40. I'm not sure how this would work with Blu-rays played from the disc, though.

Instead maybe Video > Advanced > Aspect Ratio Mode should also have "Stretch for Anamorphic Lens" which would stretch all video in that zone. Most use a 2.4 or 2.39 screen so setting it for 2.4 should work.

[6233638]

Thanks for the suggestions. Cropping letterbox films isn't what is done for an anamorphic lens. It needs a vertical stretch. The horizontal pixels stay the same, but you scale the image vertically to use all pixels available. You aren't discarding any of the picture.

The settings I posted above should do just that.
 
16:9 and 4:3 content are horizontally compressed (so that the lens expands them to the correct aspect ratio) and then cropping the top and bottom of the image with a 2.40:1 film will fill the screen.
 
Don't enable any other stretching or aspect ratio changes in the player.
 
Edit: If you check the madVR OSD, you will see that it changes the movie size to 1920x801, and scales to 1920x1080.

It would be more elegant if it was just handled automatically. If the projector can detect the actual aspect ratio of the video area, I would think LAV Filters would also detect this. Maybe Hendrick can comment more on whether this is possible. I know it used to be detected by Theatertek back when I used that program.

Letterbox detection is more difficult than you might think.

[mojave]

16:9 and 4:3 content are horizontally compressed (so that the lens expands them to the correct aspect ratio) and then cropping the top and bottom of the image with a 2.40:1 film will fill the screen.

No, you don't want to horizontally compress 16:9, you want to vertically expand 16:9. When you enable aspect ratio correction set to 2.40:1, madVR reports the target window as 1671 x 1080. This will downsize the image which is not the goal.

With a Blu-ray you have the following:
Movie Resolution:  1920 x 1080
Target Rectangle:  1920 x 1080

If you use Aspect Ratio Correction 2.40 then you get this:
Movie Resolution:  1920 x 1080
Target Rectangle:  1671 x 1080

If you use Stretch and Crop Black Bars 2.40 then you get this:
Movie Resolution:  1920 x 801
Target Rectangle:  1920 x 1080

Aspect Ratio Correction downscales the image causing a loss of pixels from the original.

Stretch and Crop stretches vertically. The original horizontal pixel count is maintained. Now the anamorphic lens stretches the image horizontally to fill the screen.

I spent all weekend with the projector and screen and can assure you that Stretch and Crop are what is required. You take the red box below and stretch it vertically to fill the screen and then you slide over the anamorphic lens to stretch it horizontally.

You start with this (actual theater):


Vertically stretch in JRiver to this:


Horizontally stretch with the anamorphic lens to this:

[6233638]

No, you don't want to horizontally compress 16:9, you want to vertically expand 16:9.

You cannot vertically expand 16:9 without cropping the image when your source and output are both 1080p.
 

When you enable aspect ratio correction set to 2.40:1, madVR reports the target window as 1671 x 1080. This will downsize the image which is not the goal.

It's the only way to preserve the original aspect ratio without moving the lens out of the optical path.

You start with this (actual theater): http://www.avsforum.com/image/id/3179596/width/900/height/900/flags/LL
Vertically stretch in JRiver to this: http://www.avsforum.com/image/id/3179609/width/900/height/900/flags/LL
Horizontally stretch with the anamorphic lens to this: http://www.avsforum.com/image/id/3179598/width/900/height/900/flags/LL

And the settings I posted will do that, with 2.40:1 content.
With 16:9 content, you have to compress the image to preserve the original aspect ratio, as the lens stretches the image horizontally.

[mark_h]

If he's using one of the new Sony 4K models he should consider dropping the anamorphic lens altogether and use the zoom method.  This was my approach and the image is much better for it...

[mojave]

Just to clarify, I'm talking about Blu-rays in which the image is not anamorphically encoded like it is with an anamorphic DVD. A 2.40 Blu-ray never uses the full pixel count for the image area. There has been some talk about anamorphic Blu-rays being produced in the future.

You cannot vertically expand 16:9 without cropping the image when your source and output are both 1080p.

Correct, which is why Stretch & Crop Black Bars vertically expands 2.40 and not 16:9.   This setting crops off the top black bars and tells madVR that the image is 1920 x 801 and needs to be stretched to 1920 x 1080. The visible portion gets vertically expanded.

It's the only way to preserve the original aspect ratio without moving the lens out of the optical path.
And the settings I posted will do that, with 2.40:1 content.
With 16:9 content, you have to compress the image to preserve the original aspect ratio, as the lens stretches the image horizontally.

With 16:9 content, the lens isn't used. Why would you want to use the lens with 16:9? This visible area is 1920 x 1080 and matches the projector's pixel count perfectly.

These explain it the same way I have:
Why Anamorphic
Anamorphic lens or projector zoom

For Constant Image Height with an anamorphic lens:
For 16:9 you mask off the side black bars of your 2.40 screen and show the 1920 x 1080 pixels.
For 2.40 you remove the masks, vertically stretch 1920 x 801 to 1920 x 1080 pixels. Horizontally stretch with the lens.

Now you are using 1920 x 1080 pixels for both and your image height has stayed the same.

If he's using one of the new Sony 4K models he should consider dropping the anamorphic lens altogether and use the zoom method.  This was my approach and the image is much better for it...

He had one purchased and then cancelled and decided to wait a couple years. He bought the Sony VPL HW5ES. Even with the anamorphic lens and sled he saved several thousand dollars.

[6233638]

With 16:9 content, the lens isn't used. Why would you want to use the lens with 16:9? This visible area is 1920 x 1080 and matches the projector's pixel count perfectly.

Well then you're wanting to switch between a 16:9 and 2.40:1 setup, rather than using a 2.40:1 setup with 16:9 and 2.40:1 content which is what I thought you were asking about.
 
I know people that have a pure 2.40:1 setup because the sleds can be expensive, and 90% of what they watch is 2.40:1 anyway. They just leave the lens in place and mask it off.
 
For what it's worth, switching between:

Code: [Select]

MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 1
MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5
When Media Center is set up for a 2.40:1 output will switch between 16:9 and 2.40:1 output, and may still be the easiest solution.
 
I assume that you're using some sort of remote to trigger the masking and the sled, so you can probably capture the IR signal on your PC and use it to trigger either command in Media Center? (it's not something I've tried to do, it just seems like someone would have figured out a way of doing it)

He had one purchased and then cancelled and decided to wait a couple years. He bought the Sony VPL HW5ES. Even with the anamorphic lens and sled he saved several thousand dollars.

I would have stuck with the 4K projector, but that's not what this topic is about.

[mojave]

For what it's worth, switching between:

Code: [Select]

MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 1
MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5


When you switch between them you are not maintaining constant image height! I just tried it again. Hint:  The target rectangle in madVR needs to be 1920x1080 for both 16:9 and 2.40:1.

When Media Center is set up for a 2.40:1 output will switch between 16:9 and 2.40:1 output, and may still be the easiest solution.

To be "setup for 2.40:1 output" means zooming your projector so that the pixel height is now 801 pixels. You lose the OSD in Theater View and your 16:9 ends up being 1424 x 801 because both images have to be the same height.

All I'm after is a simple "Vertical Stretch 2.40" in Video > Advanced.  I want it to crop in that zone from 1080 to 801 pixels and then stretch back to 1080 pixels. Other Zones/ZoneSwitch will be used for other aspect ratios.

[6233638]

I think you're misunderstanding the madVR OSD or something.
 

• Media Center set to 2.40:1 output, playing back a 16:9 film.
   Correct for 16:9 with an anamorphic lens in place.
   
  
• MC set to 2.40:1 with a 16:9 film, using MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 1
   Film is displayed 1:1, assumes lens is not being used.
  

 

• Media Center set to 2.40:1 output, playing back a letterboxed 2.40:1 film.
   
  
• MC set to 2.40:1 with a letterboxed film, using MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5
   Film is stretched to fill the screen, lens corrects aspect ratio.
  

[mojave]

I'm glad we had this conversation.    

I never tried 2.40 mode in Video > Advanced with letterbox movies in combination with MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5. I thought that you were using MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5 with letterbox movies in JRiver in 16:9 mode (or no mode). That makes a big difference.  

Using 2.4 mode in Video > Advanced and MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5 is exactly the same as using Window > Stretch and MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5.

I see that by leaving it in 2.4 mode the anamorphic lens can always be left in place which is probably the most convenient.

[mojave]

If the anamorphic lens is left in place, then won't Theater View always be distorted?

[6233638]

If the anamorphic lens is left in place, then won't Theater View always be distorted?

Ah, you're right - it didn't occur to me that only video would have its aspect ratio corrected, and not the whole UI.

Using 2.4 mode in Video > Advanced and MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5 is exactly the same as using Window > Stretch and MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5.

Well the difference is that if you were to set Stretch as your default for video playback, 4:3 content would be all stretched out for example.
 
 
Triggering 1 and 5 with the same remote as the lens/masking is probably the cleanest solution.

[apgood]

I'm glad we had this conversation.    

I never tried 2.40 mode in Video > Advanced with letterbox movies in combination with MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5. I thought that you were using MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5 with letterbox movies in JRiver in 16:9 mode (or no mode). That makes a big difference.  

Using 2.4 mode in Video > Advanced and MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5 is exactly the same as using Window > Stretch and MC19.exe /MCC 28022, 5.

I see that by leaving it in 2.4 mode the anamorphic lens can always be left in place which is probably the most convenient.

Hi Mojave,

What did you end up doing to get JRiver do play the 2.40 movies the way you want while still keeping the OSD on screen? 

I'm trying to set a new projection system up now and I've setup lens memories to switch between 16:9 and 21:9, so I can leave the lens in place, but when in 21:9 mode then of course I lose the OSD. 

Cheers
Alex