INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 25 for Windows => Topic started by: Yaobing on February 25, 2019, 02:35:54 pm
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This is something that I meant to do for a long time.
Some users have TV tuners on client computers instead of the server and can not move them to the server for various reasons, such as not having TV antenna/cable at the server location. For a long time we can only use the tuners on clients for live viewing, not for recording. The reason for the limitation is that any time a user schedules a recording, the recording rule is sync'ed to the server and thus the server would perform the actual recording.
Now MC will allow recording to happen on clients. Here are some details:
0. Before recording can happen on any client, one must first make some configuration changes.
A. The TV recording folder that a client uses must be shared with the server.
B. The server must understand the folder structure that the client uses. This means one must use mapped drive or UNC. For example, if TV recording folder on the client is set to "V:\TV Recordings\", then the same folder must be mapped on the server as "V:\TV Recordings\", so that any recordings written to this folder will be playable by the server.
1. If the server does not already have the channels of the type matching the tuners on the client, for example ATSC channels, and the server does not have tuners of that type, then you need to first scan for channels on the client. On a client, the television Setup tool is enabled initially. If you click it, you may be asked to confirm that you want to enable channel and EPG setup on the client. Click Yes and go ahead with the normal Setup procedure to set up channels. The Setup wizard will ask you to set up EPG too. You may choose an EPG method, such as mc2xml or Over-the-air, or choose "No Guide" (see item 2. below). Clicking Yes on the initial confirmation will enable the setting "Allow setup on clients". This setting is in TV Options > Advanced section. If you change you mind about this setting, you can go to Advanced section to change it.
2. It is recommended that you keep EPG setup on the server. There is one situation in which you have to run EPG updates on the client. This is the case if your over-the-air tuners are all on the client, and not on the server, AND you absolutely need to use over-the-air method of getting EPG data. If this is the case, choose Over-the-air EPG mode during Setup (see item 1. above). That been said, however, if you insist on doing all TV stuff on the client, there is nothing to prevent you from running EPG updates on the client, with mc2xml or with OTA.
3. To actually get recording to work on the client, there is another setting you must turn on. This setting is TV Options > Recording > Enable recording on client. This option must be turned on manually.
4. Now you can run TV recording wizard to set up recordings, including subscription recordings. In the last wizard step, you may choose on which computer you want the recording to take place.
5. If you set up a new rule on the server, the recording will happen on the server (the only choice is "server").
6. If you set up a new rule on a client, MC will test and make sure the conditions specified in item 0. above are met. If so, you will be given the choice of recording the show on "the server" or "this computer". Once you make the choice, all future recording related to this particular recording rule (in case of subscription recording) will be recorded on the same computer, until you reconfigure it.
7. If you configure an existing rule on the server, and the rule was previously set to record on a client (say "Computer A"), you will have the choice of keeping "Computer A", or changing it to "the server".
8. If you configure an existing rule on the server, and the rule was previously set to record on the server, then the only choice will be "the server". To change it to a client, you need to do the configuration on that client.
9. If you configure an existing rule on a client, and the rule previously was to record on the server or on this particular client ("Computer A"), then you will have the option to set it to "the server" or "this computer".
10. If you configure an existing rule on a client ("Computer A"), and the rule previously was to record on a different client ("Computer B"), then you will have the option to set it to "the server", or "this computer", or "Computer B".
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The purpose of this system is to allow you to use a tuner that is on a client and not accessible on the server. If you have networked tuners (such as HDHomeRun), you should not use this setup as it will incur extra network usage without providing any advantage.
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I have 3 PCS with tuner cards and they all record different shows for different people (Kids, Wife and me...)
The PC for the kitchen only has ATSC cards therefore need to access one of the other 2 (HTPC or living room) from time to time for Sports channels recorded off of 2 STBs with Colossus/HD PVR capture cards)
The only problems I have with my current setup is:...If I access one of those 2 PCs from the kitchen PC I lose the server ability on that PC for TV recordings AND Need to make sure I revert back to the main library to reactivate the server for TV recordings…
So this is a nice attempt to leverage card usage on all PCs but will not help me and sharing one recording location would be hard to manage...
Nice addition but not sure it will be useful for my needs.
And hopefully this won't screw things up with my current setup...WHat I trully need is the ability to access either one of my 2 PCs with tuner cards without losing the ability to record shows on that Kitchen PC...
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Now your kitchen PC will be able to record while it is a client to another PC. That is the point of this change. However if you can not make a shared drive for both the client and the server, then it will not work. Also if you keep switching from one server to another, it may be hard to manage.
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Now your kitchen PC will be able to record while it is a client to another PC. That is the point of this change. However if you can not make a shared drive for both the client and the server, then it will not work. Also if you keep switching from one server to another, it may be hard to manage.
I want different contents on the different PCs/Drives as I have different subscriptions as per my first post. Could you make it so the kitchen PC has its own server settings for recordings (using local drives) but behaves as a client for TV watching simultaneously? (ie looking at the library content on the server only?)
This is really all I need. Then if someone forgets to bring back the Kitchen PC on its main library no recordings will be missed!
Not sure I understand why we need a Shared Drive for this new feature to work? This will be a major PITA as the 2 PCs would have to be on all the time or need a separate NAS...And I need all the space I can get for the different recordings for the different audience...
As a side note not sure it's related but I've had issues where MC would mix local recordings to server recordings when connected as a client on the kitchen PC but this doesn't seem to happen anymore (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,106997.msg743334.html#msg743334)
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Could you make it so the kitchen PC has its own server settings for recordings (using local drives) but behaves as a client for TV watching simultaneously? (ie looking at the library content on the server only?)
That can not be done because when a client is connected to a server, it is using a copy of the server library. It either synchronize everything with the server (with authentication), or loses every change on exit. So the recordings are either synchronized into the server library, or not saved at all.
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However...
The setting at "Options > Television> General > Folder for recording and time shifting files" is tied to the PC and not the Library. It is not synchronised to the Client from the Server, or back again. So there can be different values in the Server and Client Libraries.
I think when the Client creates a recording it would use that local setting to decide where to put it, even if it had the Server Library loaded at the time.
Naturally, it would be best if the Client always loaded the Server Library, and was synchronising back to the server with Authentication. But the Client recording location would probably be meaningless on the Server, even if the default "C:\Users\[UserID]\Videos\JRiver\TV Recording\" was used. Even if the location existed, it would be unlikely to be the location used on the Server. The recording location would have to be independent of the User ID anyway, so that all useres could access it. So the MC Server would be unable to find the files and would mark them as such, or would remove them from the Library if the "Fix broken links" setting was set to either of the "Yes" options.
However, if the recording location on the Client was Shared (i.e. KitchenTV = C:\TV\), and set on the Client and Server to that Share, then the Server could have a different recording location, but it would still find the recordings created in the \\KitchenPC\KitchenTV\ location by the Client PC.
You could then have another share set up for the Server recording location, i.e. ServerTV, and available to both the Server and the Client, so that the Server saw the recordings on the Client PC, and the Client PC saw the recordings on the Server PC. Then create a share for each Client PC's TV location and set them up on all PC's, so all can see all recordings, if wanted. The "Fix broken links" setting would then have to be set to "Yes. (protect files on missing drives)". In fact, it may be easier to use mapped drives rather than Shares, so that it is easier to understand and when drive "W:\" was missing, MC wouldn't delete the recordings. Each PC recording location could have its own mapped drive, which was created on all PCs in the network.
The question is, would this break MC on the Server? i.e. It would now be managing recordings created by two separate instances of MC, using different and potentially overlapping Recording Rule IDs and Channel IDs, for example. Although based on the description you have given Yaobing, that would be an issue even in the recommended configuration.
So, the Server records to drive T:\ and has a mapped drive W;\.
The Client records to drive W:\ and has a mapped drive T:\.
The Client always uses the Server Library, synchronised with UserID and Password authentication.
The Client records a program to drive W:\ and creates a record in the Client copy of the Server Library.
The Client synchronises the record of the recording to the Server, which recognises the W:\ location.
The Server can play the recording from the Client or Server (itself).
The Client can play the recording from the Client (itself) or the Server.
If there was a chance that the record of the recording wasn't synchronised back from the Client to the Server, then the Server could be configured to Auto Import recordings found in the W:\ location. which would then be loaded on the Client on a restart, or synchronised back to it.
I think that would all work. What do you think Yaobing? How about you try it Imeric.
TL;DR: It doesn't matter if the recordings are local on the Client PC, as long as the path to the recording matches a path available to the Server.
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Hmmm, maybe condition 0.B. would have to be modified, so that different locations were allowed, as long as the Server could see the Client location. That may be hard to test.
My understanding in MC prior to this change is that the TV functionality creates a record of all recordings in the Library it is using, which is why the TV Recording location doesn't need to be included under Auto Import. In the current new arrangement if full User ID and Password Authentication isn't being used, this record wouldn't be synchronised back to the Server, so the Server wouldn't know about the recording, unless it also looked in the location using Auto Import. So full User ID and Password Authentication should also be a prerequisite, should it?
In fact, without full User ID and Password Authentication, wouldn't some of points 1 to 6 fail? Or are you writing Recording Rules directly to the Server, rather than using synchronisation?
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Yeah, I misspoke on shared drives a little in my first post.
The server and the client do not need to use identical "Recording folder", but the server must have a mapped drive that is identical to whatever the client is using. For example, you can have a shared folder, which can either be on the client or on the server physically, though server is probably preferred, and it should be mapped to identical drive, say drive V:\. So the client specifies V:\TV Recordings\ as the location to put recordings in and all recordings made by the client should be there. The server must be able to understand that location and be able to access it. When the client makes a recording, it will be something like "V:\TV Recordings\PBS News Hour.ts", or something in a subfolder. This file is now part of the server library after synchronization is done. The server should be able to read/play the file "V:\TV Recordings\PBS News Hour.ts". On the other hand, the server's TV recording location does not need to be in V:\TV Recordings\. It can use its own location, such as W:\TV Recordings\. This server location does not need to be shared with any client. I do not see so much difference whether the server uses W:\ drive or V:\ drive. Once a client connects, it should be able to play any file the the server serves, from either location.
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I modified my first post.
I will give a hypothetical example here:
Suppose my server has only one drive, C:\, and I create a folder C:\Users\Yaobing\Video\Client Folder\TV Recordings\ on the server, and want clients to write TV recording files into it. I would share the folder C:\Users\Yaobing\Video\Client Folder\, and map it to drive V: (so on the server, V: is the same as C:\Users\Yaobing\Video\Client Folder\). On the client I would also map the same shared folder (server's C:\Users\Yaobing\Video\Client Folder\) to drive V:\ and specify "V:\TV Recordings\" as the location for TV recordings. This way, any file the client creates in this folder will be referenced as one in the folder V:\TV Recordings\, or its sub-folders, and be totally accessible by the server. That is all we need. The server can specify it's own TV recording location anywhere on its own C: drive, including but not necessarily C:\Users\Yaobing\Video\Client Folder\.
Here I use the phrase "sharing a folder" to mean making a folder on one computer accessible from another computer, not "both computer must use the same folder as recording location."
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For example, you can have a shared folder, which can either be on the client or on the server physically,
There you go Imeric. It sounds like this change will do what you want. It just needs to be set up correctly. :D
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I’ll try this out tonight and let you know how it goes.
Few comments/questions on this:
- The kitchen PC will always connect as a client therefore is dependent on the server PC which needs to be on for this to work. Right?
The "C:\Users\Yaobing\Video\Client Folder\TV Recordings\" is actually located and shared from the client (Kitchen-PC), mapped and accessed as V: on both servers...Right?
Then this should work... I think...
- Still unclear as to why we have that dependency to the server PCs to need to see the Client's TV folder content if TV folders can be different on the 2 Client/Server PCs...Well this could be useful in case I want to access the Kitchen PC content form the 2 servers but why is it a must? So the client can access its own local content...Right?
What if you implement the following?
- The kitchen PC will always try to access the Server-PC when it's on. If it can't it just loads it's main library. This would make this a fully handsfree solution...
Another issue is I want access on 2 server PCs not just one since they have different contents...Maybe this isn't an issue let's see...
Thx guys.
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For example, you can have a shared folder, which can either be on the client or on the server physically, though server is probably preferred,
The last part of this quote is from the stand point of server needing to serve the files to different clients. If you mostly watch client-recorded-shows on the same client, then it makes sense to have the disk on the client physically, provided you use the client option "Play local file if one that matches Library Server file is found". This option has been ignored for JTV recordings, but I just made a change yesterday to honor it (will appear in the next build).
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If you mostly watch client-recorded-shows on the same client, then it makes sense to have the disk on the client physically
I do.
provided you use the client option "Play local file if one that matches Library Server file is found".
I always left this unchecked thinking it was the cause of seeing both server and client's local content (other post linked above) but I don't think it was it...This will obviously need to be checked for this to work as I'll be connected on the server all the time... :(
I'll also need to figure out a way to split content from the server and client in theater view...And some contents shouldn't be accessed by the kids (Zombies...etc...)
This option has been ignored for JTV recordings, but I just made a change yesterday to honor it (will appear in the next build).
I use .ts so not an issue for me....
Any chance to add this on:
- The kitchen PC will always try to access the Server-PC when it's on (a prompt or user selectable to choose the default?) . If it can't it just loads it's main library. This would make this a fully handsfree solution...
I don't want this PC to be dependent on a server PC that is not always on at the same time....
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I always left this unchecked thinking it was the cause of seeing both server and client's local content (other post linked above) but I don't think it was it...This will obviously need to be checked for this to work as I'll be connected on the server all the time... :(
I suspected that content control was your concern. This will be an issue anytime you use client-server setup. The client sees server's content. The "Play local file..." option has nothing to do with it. The meaning of the option is "if the client finds an identical file locally, it will play the local file, instead of having to stream the file from the server".
You do not have to use this option. Using it will let you play a file without going through the network, and thus playback is smoother.
I'll also need to figure out a way to split content from the server and client in theater view...And some contents shouldn't be accessed by the kids (Zombies...etc...)I use .ts so not an issue for me....
That is the way to go.
Any chance to add this on:
- The kitchen PC will always try to access the Server-PC when it's on (a prompt or user selectable to choose the default?) . If it can't it just loads it's main library. This would make this a fully handsfree solution...
I don't want this PC to be dependent on a server PC that is not always on at the same time....
By default, the client always tries to connect to the server (i.e. MC uses the setting used in the last session). If the computer was a client in the last session, it will try to be the same client in this session. If it fails to do so, it will show a message. The user needs to make a few clicks to let it switch to main library.
Some time ago we added the option to always start in the main library.
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The client sees server's content. The meaning of the option is "if the client finds an identical file locally, it will play the local file, instead of having to stream the file from the server".
So it makes me wonder why the server needs to see the Client's TV recordings in the first place.... In other words when MC is connected to a server, it is smart enough to also know about its own local content and play it instead... Based on this logic wouldn't it make this whole feature a lot easier and simpler for the users to just change the client behavior so it shows both the Server's content (when available) and its local one when connected as a server?
Some sort of a hybrid mode that would always prioritize a Server connection while recording TV shows locally and show both local and remote content?
Due to this I guess? the recording rule is sync'ed to the server and thus the server would perform the actual recording.
Can this be user selectable? This would also make it easier to keep subscriptions different on all 3 PCs instead of having a pool of subscriptions on the server where you select client vs server...Also eliminating the server's dependency to see the Client content...
Some time ago we added the option to always start in the main library.
Yes I'm the one who requested it :)... https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,103629.msg720089.html#msg720089
Only problem with it is...When I close MC the server part doesn't close so it will never load on its main library...Changing this to when the GUI closes would resolve this!
I feel we are really close to something working (for me anyway...) since it is now possible to record on a client locally while connected to a server this is the main thing....
Just need to play with this a bit more....
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Think about the MC Client/Server process a bit more. Specifically, how the Client's copy of the Server Library is refreshed (overwritten) each time the Client connects.
Also consider, for this solution to work, the Kitchen PC needs to always load the Server Library. No more need to open the Main library (once you configure MC for this new functionality).
MC doesn't know what is local versus what is elsewhere if a drive has been mapped. The Client will always show both the Server and Client content, when connected in Client/Server mode. You may need to MC User functionality to control access to Views and restricted content.
Read Yaobing's first post again, particularly the Recording Rule stuff. Rules can operate on the Client or Server. But as they must be stored in the Server Library, because that is now the only Library in use, they will be synced to the Server Library.
Are you running Media Server on the Clients? Why?
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The Client will always show both the Server and Client content, when connected in Client/Server mode.
I think Eric and you are talking about two different concepts regarding "Server and client content". Eric wants the client computer to have its own library, in addition to the server library so he could have the client record TV shows independent of the server. That is not possible.
The new feature of allowing clients to record should meet his need after he figures out how to control who can see what content.
Are you running Media Server on the Clients? Why?
Eric has been running the Kitchen computer as an independent computer except when he needed to access the contents of another computer. I think that is why he was running Media Server.
This reminds me that with the new feature allowing client to record, we will have to put the client in Media Server mode too because we will need the computer running if we want it to record TV show. The new feature seems to open a small can of worms...
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Thanks Yaobing good to see you totally understand my needs!!!
This reminds me that with the new feature allowing client to record, we will have to put the client in Media Server mode too
Just so you know I am running all 3 PCs in server mode including the Kitchen PC without any issue but loses the ability to record TV shows when I connect to a server...(Which is the only problem really with my current setup and what I would like changed or modified without a dependency to a server...)
I was in the midst of replying back to RoderickGI so I'll try to rephrase for him....Only fair as he's trying to help!
Are you running Media Server on the Clients? Why?
Mmmm how do I respond to this politely :)... You could re-read my earlier posts on my current setup but let me rephrase it in a way that will hopefully make sense to you:
- 3 PCs: HTPC (recording Specialty channels on STB for shows and sports), Living Room PC (similar setup as HTPC but aimed at recordings for the kids ie...Sports), Kitchen PC with ATSC Only (recording wife+family stuff) and used as a client from time to time to mostly watch sports....
Not having everything on one PC is great and allows for the following:
- Leverage hardware (hard disc space, ATSC tuner cards, 2 accessible STB recording different Specialty channels)
- Allows me to control what the kids have access to and watch.
- Even though this got a lot better over time...The overall client experience was fair at best for me...When possible I'd rather connect to a server PC directly for a better channel surfing experience and until very recently it was not possible to cancel recordings and a few other things from the client...
- Connecting to a server requires both PCs active therefore requiring unnecessary resources...
- If something happens to one of the PCs the other 2 are available as backups...
- The overall efficiency is better this way since those PCs will run comskip, do transcoding tasks for a few shows and so on...
Enough Talk, time to try this out and post back!!!
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It's always good to keep it polite and remain civil Eric. Particularly if there is simply a terminology or communication difficulty, which I suspect that there is in this case.
Nothing you just described requires the JRiver Media Server to be running on your Client PCs.
The only reason to run the JRiver Media Server on a PC is if you wish to share the contents of that PC with other PCs or devices.
In your case, I assume that you share the contents of the HTPC with the Living Room and Kitchen PCs, so it needs the JRiver Media Server to be running. If you also share the contents of the Living Room PC with the HTPC and Kitchen PCs, then it will need to run the JRiver Media Server. Do you share the contents of the Kitchen PC with the HTPC and Living Room PCs? If so, then yes, you would need the JRiver Media Server running on the Kitchen PC.
Also, in each case, if you had music on a PC and wanted to be able to play that music on phones, tablets, and other devices, then yes, they would need the JRiver Media Server running.
You will notice that I am specifically saying "JRiver Media Server". So, terminology
JRiver Media Center GUI:
The main program, which when running can do the tasks of the JRiver Media Server as well as provide the user with a GUI. Can be started at Windows Startup or directly later from a Windows shortcut etc.
JRiver Media Server (https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Server):
The component of MC that can be run independently of the JRiver Media Center GUI, and will allow MC Client and DLNA connections to the content in the Library loaded on the PC it is running. Can be started at Windows Startup or later via the "Tools > Advanced Tools > Media Server" option in the top menu of JRiver Media Center GUI Standard View. Sometimes called the Library Server, but that is a superseded term I think.
JRiver Media Network (https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Media_Network):
A feature of MC that provides the setup and communication functionality to support MC Clients and optionally DLNA Clients. The feature needs to be turned on in MC under "Options > General > Features" to allow access to the MC Client configuration, however, the settings at "Options > Media Network > Use Media Network to share this library and enable DLNA" does not need to be turned on for MC Clients to connect to a JRiver Media Server or JRiver Media Center GUI acting as a Media Server.
JRiver Media Center 2x Service:
A component of MC visible in the Windows Task Manager, which isn't the JRiver Media Server, runs whether the JRiver Media Server is running or not, and can keep running for a while even if the JRiver Media Server and GUI have been shut down. Prevents MC from being started again until it closes when it is finished whatever it is doing, or is closed manually. If JRiver Media Server and GUI were doing nothing when they were closed, the JRiver Media Center 2x Service closes immediately. If Service was doing something when the JRiver Media Server and GUI were closed, it can take a few minutes for the JRiver Media Center 2x Service to close. (Description included for clarity, given that this Service has been mistaken for the JRiver Media Server previously.)
I think Eric and you are talking about two different concepts regarding "Server and client content". Eric wants the client computer to have its own library, in addition to the server library so he could have the client record TV shows independent of the server. That is not possible.
Yes, I understood that is how he is using it now, but this new functionality replaces that need. Eric will need to move any content on the Kitchen PC to a location on that PC that is visible to the Server, and he will need to import that content into the Server Library, as part of the transition to using this new functionality. But a local Library on the Kitchen PC would not be required anymore.
The new feature of allowing clients to record should meet his need after he figures out how to control who can see what content.
I agree.
Eric has been running the Kitchen computer as an independent computer except when he needed to access the contents of another computer. I think that is why he was running Media Server.
As above, Media Server doesn't need to be running on the Kitchen PC for it to access content on another computer. Media Server needs to be running on that other PC.
This reminds me that with the new feature allowing client to record, we will have to put the client in Media Server mode too because we will need the computer running if we want it to record TV show.
I don't understand this statement. The Client needs to be running as a Client of a MC Server, so that it can have a copy of the Server Library with the Recording Rules available. It will need to be able to wake the Client PC at the correct time. It will also need to send WOL commands to the MC Server so that it can update the MC Server Library via synchronisation. While that wake process may take a little while, it does seem to be working pretty well now since Bob made some changes. Of course, I don't know if a MC Client woken to record a program will automatically send WOL commands, but currently any activity on the Client that requires writting to the Library does seem to do that, with some delay.
Maybe "putting a Client in Media Server mode" means something different to running JRiver Media Server on the Client?
But all the above is basic to the idea of having Clients being able to record TV while connected to a MC Server.
BTW Eric, if a MC Client is connected to a MC Server, it is dependent on that Server. There is no getting around that. Although theoretically, with recent changes, if a MC Client can't access the Server it is "connected" to, it will ask if it wants you to fall back to the local Library, and I think after a while it does that automatically. So if a recording rule in the Client copy of the Server Library woke the Client, the Client couldn't wake the Server and fell back to the local Library, and if the rule was also in the local Client Library, at that time MC should start the recording locally. But that would mean managing rules in two Libraries, much like now, and would probably be horrendously unreliable, as dropping such connections can cause issues, because they rely on DLNA protocols.
Did I miss anything?
EDIT:
The Shares and Drive Mappings required need to be done in Windows.
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Yaobing I managed to get it working but a first recording attempt on the client is nowhere to be found on both the server (living room) and client (kitchen).
What should my client options be set at?
thx
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Yep. Recordings are not saved anywhere when created from the client (client option selected from kitchen PC)….
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I'm unable to get it to work.
I set a TV recording folder K:\TV on the kitchen client (which is on a local drive)
I network mapped that same drive as "K" on the server PC and added K:\TV in the Auto-import folder
After doing this I could see the option to save on client PC when setting up a recording from the client, leading me to believe my setup is OK...
However it will not record and will just play the recording live...No trace of JTV folders being created either...
Let's say this works
- Yaobing will the Client (Kitchen PC) be able to perform its own recordings without having access to the server?
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I forgot to mention, there is a setting you have to turn on: TV Options > Recording > Enable recording on client.
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Nothing you just described requires the JRiver Media Server to be running on your Client PCs.
The only reason to run the JRiver Media Server on a PC is if you wish to share the contents of that PC with other PCs or devices.
As above, Media Server doesn't need to be running on the Kitchen PC for it to access content on another computer. Media Server needs to be running on that other PC.
The kitchen PC needs to record its own TV shows so The Media server has to be enabled for this to work (and wake the PC up if it's in sleep mode) AND I want it to use its own local drive not the server drive.
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I added items 7, 8, and 9 in my original post regarding new settings.
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I added items 7, 8, and 9 in my original post regarding new settings.
I did 7,8 but missed 9 in the options… I guess EPG will never run if it is always connected to the server right?
I forgot to mention, there is a setting you have to turn on: TV Options > Recording > Enable recording on client.
It works!!!! It's recording on the kitchen client and being seen by the server as well, very nice…
Now if the Kitchen PC could still work without the dependency on the server this would be awesome…
I was curious and closed the server while recording from the kitchen and it hanged (understandably so...) Restarting it brought back the prompt to load a library… :(
Back to my point of having some sort of hybrid mode where the client can start automatically without server access and perform TV recordings…This would work!
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I don't understand this statement. The Client needs to be running as a Client of a MC Server, so that it can have a copy of the Server Library with the Recording Rules available.
There has been some misconception, myself included. The confusion is whether Media Server must be on in order to run scheduled TV recordings and scheduled EPG updates. I often use Startup > Run on Windows startup: Media Server (allows library sharing, television recording, etc.) as a way of ensuring the part of MC is running all the time.
There is also a practical merit too: even if you choose to start Media Center on Windows startup, you may end up clicking Close on it and forget about having TV recordings in the evening.
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Will a client PC wake the server up if asleep?
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I did 7,8 but missed 9 in the options… I guess EPG will never run if it is always connected to the server right?
EPG will run (in the next build anyway - in current build it only runs when you do it manually, not automatically in the background) if you configure it to run, even if the computer is acting as a client. You do not need to let it run on client, if the server covers all channels.
It works!!!! It's recording on the kitchen client and being seen by the server as well, very nice…
If you have not configured MC client to automatically sync with the server, you should run "Sync changes with Library Server" after the recording is done so ensure the server has the most updated info. I will add some automatic calls to sync during and after recording for the next build.
Now if the Kitchen PC could still work without the dependency on the server this would be awesome…
I was curious and closed the server while recording from the kitchen and it hanged (understandably so...) Restarting it brought back the prompt to load a library… :(
Back to my point of having some sort of hybrid mode where the client can start automatically without server access and perform TV recordings…This would work!
It will not work without the server. What you wish for is running against MC's basic design. MC can not have two different libraries loaded simultaneously.
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Will a client PC wake the server up if asleep?
I have not been successful in that. When I tried to start MC client, it attempted to wake up the server but failed. I am not sure how it should work.
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If you have not configured MC client to automatically sync with the server, you should run "Sync changes with Library Server" after the recording is done so ensure the server has the most updated info. I will add some automatic calls to sync during and after recording for the next build.
It will not work without the server. What you wish for is running against MC's basic design. MC can not have two different libraries loaded simultaneously.
Ok… But based on your comment above it loads a server copy, and can perform TV recordings locally so…
What if it can still work even if the server PC shuts down for XYZ reason? Once it's able to connect to the server again a resync is performed then and nothing is lost… That Common K:\TV folder is still available locally anyway right?
Kind of similar to a USB drive being disconnected...MC just lets you know the file is not available… Does that make sense?
Hopefully this can give you some ideas…:)
The MC Kitchen client could also start automatically with a local temp copy of the server library until it can connect to it again and resync...
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There is also a practical merit too: even if you choose to start Media Center on Windows startup, you may end up clicking Close on it and forget about having TV recordings in the evening.
Ah yes. That makes sense. Of course, either the JRiver Media Server or the JRiver Media Center GUI, even if it is minimised, must be running for recordings to the initiated.
My concern was that having JRiver Media Server running on the Clients would make them all visible to other Clients, adding to the list of Dynamic Zones, which may be confusing. It adds another process running on what may be a low powered Client. I guess that in an environment with Server S and Clients A & B, if Client A tried to play to Client B, even if that was not intended, it should work, as long as Client B settings regarding conversions are correct. I guess Dynamic Zones could also be hidden on Clients as required, as long as that didn't impact the Server list of Dynamic Clients.
The kitchen PC needs to record its own TV shows so The Media server has to be enabled for this to work (and wake the PC up if it's in sleep mode) AND I want it to use its own local drive not the server drive.
Other than the practical issue above of having at least one component of MC running, none of the above requires Media Server. Running the Media Center GUI minimised would work just as well, and not result in Client PCs appearing as Dynamic Zones on other Client PCs.
I have not been successful in that. When I tried to start MC client, it attempted to wake up the server but failed. I am not sure how it should work.
I've had it working correctly for a while now, although I did have Media Server running on the Client because I use my Workstation as a Client, Server, and Standalone installation of MC. I share the Workstation Client contents to other DLNA Clients, mainly my phone, when I am running my Workstation. I've turned that off now and will see if the Client still properly wakes the Server. The process is a bit hit an miss, takes some time, and it can look like the Client has locked up, but it does complete and wake the Server when you do anything other than browse the local copy of the Server Library. I would have expected the start of a recording to trigger the WOL process, as tags are written early in the recording process, but maybe that needs some special attention.
Discussed here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,118288.msg821813.html#msg821813
If that process worked reliably and quickly then this;
What if it can still work even if the server PC shuts down for XYZ reason? Once it's able to connect to the server again a resync is performed then and nothing is lost… That Common K:\TV folder is still available locally anyway right?
would work, as long as "shut down" meant "go to sleep". If the Server was rebooted it probably wouldn't work, because a new copy of the Server Library would probably be loaded into the Client, overwriting the previous copy. Although maybe the Client would just connect to the currently open Server Library and continue on as if the reboot didn't happen. Just opening with a previous temporary copy of the Server Library might be an option, if that didn't cause synchronisation errors. That would need some detailed investigation. Recovery from an unknown state could be complex, if the connection was lost at some stage though. It depends on how synchronisation is managed.
Thinking some more. If the Client woke up to start a recording and couldn't connect to or wake the Server, then the "Server didn't wake. Trying to reload the Server Library" process discussed in that thread may actually work in re-establishing the Client/Server connection and correctly starting the recording. Maybe some co-ordination with Bob required.
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I have not been successful in that. When I tried to start MC client, it attempted to wake up the server but failed. I am not sure how it should work.
I just tested this again with Media Server turned off in the Client.
Browsing around results in the "Busy" Windows icon, but eventually responds.
Selecting a track and trying to play it resulted in a message something like: "Communication with the Server failed. Do you want to switch Libraries?". When I answer no to that message track playback from the Server to the Client starts. So the WOL is working, but it is a bit slow, and MC has given up by the time it works. Or else the message is a result of any errors occurring, even when the connection is successfully re-established.
So if you see that message, try saying No to it.
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Will a client PC wake the server up if asleep?
I gave this a try this morning and it woke the server up. However for this to work properly the connection timeout would have to be extended or have it try a few times to make sure it has time to wake the server PC up and connect without user intervention... I had to hit retry 2-3 times and it ended up connecting. Yaobing your WOL settings may need to be changed on your device or BIOS?
-Million dollar question is: Will both of those PCs wake-up for a local client recording to take place? (another reason why the dependency on the server PC should be eliminated or kept to a minimum...)
A few comments on the overall experience last night with the Kitchen PC connected as a client:
- Overall surfing experience and maneuvering in the theater view works great if I stick to the ATSC Tuners (as I assume it's using the local ones)
- It's when I start surfing on the STB channels of the server that problems start...
1. If an STB recording is going on and you access it from the guide it will start playing it "live" ie...It doesn't start from the beginning of the show as it should (this is an old issue that I circumvent by accessing the show under "Shows" in theater view. Then it will start from the beginning as it should.
2. Even if not recording, it doesn't always free up the HD PVR capture card so that I can change channels...I had to manually go on the previous channel, hit "stop" and then I could select other STB channels.
3. Changing channels through the OSD does not work when playing STB channels. It will change the channel right away before you have time to select one. It works fine with ATSC channels. (Again old issue and all of the above are reasons why I don't connect as a client if I don't have to...)
This is not specific to a client or server connection (ie will happen even using the HTPC or living room PC) and is an old issue that would need to be resolved:
When channel surfing on the STB and you "time-shifted" or rewinded a bit before changing STB channels it will keep time-shifting active. You either have to wait or hit forward for the channel change to take place...In other words it is not changing the channel right away or stopping time-shifting...Is this clear? I can try to clarify :)....
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The option to record as a client would need to be added in the Theater view choices.
MC crashes if a show is playing and I go back to the main library. (minor...but thought you should know..)
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I just tried a client recording while both the server and client PCs were asleep.
The server woke up but not the client so the recording was missed until I started the client manually.
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I just tried a client recording while both the server and client PCs were asleep.
The server woke up but not the client so the recording was missed until I started the client manually.
Thanks for reporting. I had thought there might be an issue, but have not gotten to it yet.
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Yaobing could you please add an option so it's possible to record both on the client and server?
thx
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Yaobing could you please add an option so it's possible to record both on the client and server?
thx
Why? Does not make sense to me.
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Since the client seems to be dependent on the server for recordings I guess it does not make sense you’re right.. Let me rephrase then. :) make the client able to record on its own without a server connection...
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If the "client" is not connected to a server it is not a client. You will need to configure that instance of your library to record. A computer not connected to a server only knows its own library and will not have anything to do with any server library. You can manually configure the independent version of the library so that it will record any show you want, perhaps the same shows that the computer will record when it is in a client-server connection. This way you will be sure that the shows are recorded whether the computer is connected to a server or not.
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Why? Does not make sense to me.
Since the client seems to be dependent on the server for recordings I guess it does not make sense you’re right.. Let me rephrase then. :) make the client able to record on its own without a server connection...
Since this doesn't seem to be a viable option let me rephrase...
I have the same subscriptions to record the noon and evening news on the Living Room PC (server) AND the kitchen PC. If I have the option of recording on both machines I don't have to create duplicate subscriptions on the server so I don't miss the recordings when the Kitchen PC is connected to the server. This also serves as a backup if one of the 2 PCs missed the recordings...
This way, the recordings will take place on the kitchen PC whether or not it's connected on its main library or as a client and I don't have to create duplicate entries on the server. (And yes those subscriptions also have to be set on the Kitchen PC's main library.)
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Some users have TV tuners on client computers instead of the server and can not move them to the server for various reasons, such as not having TV antenna/cable at the server location. For a long time we can only use the tuners on clients for live viewing, not for recording. The reason for the limitation is that any time a user schedules a recording, the recording rule is sync'ed to the server and thus the server would perform the actual recording.
I'm not completely clear on what the distinction is between "client" and "server" here. What server are we talking about here ? Media Server ? Storage server ?
The place where my OTA coax cable comes is my home theater room. I have a HTPC in it running Win10, with 5 ATSC tuners. It records shows locally to a 1TB SSD using MC25. I normally watch TV in my home theater only, so this has worked for me so far. I just enabled the HTPC to share its library using the Media Network options. So I guess technically, you would now call this HTPC machine the "server" ?
I am typing this from a desktop PC in my home office, also running Win10 and MC25. It's connected to the HTPC via wired 10 Gb ethernet (there are two 10 Gb switches in between). I used the "Add library" feature to load the library from the HTPC. I am able to play TV shows from it just fine.
However, from my desktop PC, I can't use any of the tuners from the HTPC. When I go to the "Television" option on the sidebar of MC25 on my desktop PC, I see a list of all the TV channels that are configured on the HTPC. I double clicked one. It shows the name of the channel and program, and "Waiting for signal lock ...". And then nothing happens. Same is true on every single channel. Any idea why this is happening ? Is live playing supposed to work ? I'm pretty sure if I walk to the home theater room and turn on the projector, I can tune any channel I want. At least, that has always worked. I'm wondering if MC25 in this case is trying to use the HVR-1265 card that is in my home office desktop PC. I use this card only for video capture. It has one ATSC tuner, but no coax cable is plugged to the antenna input. If MC25 is trying to use the channel guide from the HTPC (server) with the local card in my desktop, that would certainly cause this "no signal lock" behavior. It also wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for it to be trying to do that, IMO. It should be tuning to the selected channel on the HTPC using one of its 5 tuners, and then allow the MC25 client on my desktop to view this recording over the LAN. At least, that's what I assume it should do. But it's not doing that. I have remote desktop access to the HTPC, and I can see it doesn't start any recording. None of the ATSC tuners are in use. The other thing it could do is stream the ATSC data over the LAN to the client, assuming the network bandwidth is high enough, which my 10 Gb ethernet connection certainly is, even if I wanted to use all 5 ATSC tuners at once. A single TCP stream can do up to 5 Gb/s with iperf3, and with 3 TCP streams, I can max out 10 Gb/s. Of course if we are talking about more bandwidth constrained networks like, say, wireless G, it could be an issue. But even on wireless AC I can do >200 Mbps, so I would think this should work too for sharing multiple ATSC tuners.
FYI:
When I go to "Television / Show status" on my desktop PC, ie. the MC25 client, I see 3 devices. There is 1 ATSC tuner, 1 capture device, and my Logitech webcam.
When I go to "Television / Show status" on the HTPC, ie. the MC25 server, I see 8 devices : 5 ATSC tuners, and 3 capture devices.
I wish I could copy/paste that data, but that doesn't seem to work.
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Why? Does not make sense to me.
I can certainly conceive some use cases where you would want only the client to do the storage. If the machine with the physical ATSC tuners (which I will call the "server") has, say, zero local storage, or limited storage, but beefy network bandwidth - enough to support the concurrent data streams for all the tuners at once over LAN or WLAN - you would certainly want to be able to initiate recordings from the client side. The server physical machine with the tuners could even be completely diskless, booting its OS from the network. The client could choose to store the ATSC stream on the location of its choice - either local, or, if it is also diskless, a 3rd machine.
IMO, you wouldn't want the server machine (with the tuners) to depend on a network share from a file server to be available, as this would require that second machine to be available, and it can be tricky if you don't want to keep that file server up 24/7. I don't keep my file server up 24/7. Currently, I have my clients wake it up my file server with WOL when they need to perform backups to it. The heuristics for when the file server goes to sleep aren't well defined yet. I have yet to write the script for it. I wish there was some sort of standard protocol where a client could tell a file server "I need access to this network share now" and "I am done with this share, it's OK with me if you go to sleep".
My preferred way would be for something that will work well with a diskless server (with the physical tuners in it), and either with a client with its local disk, or with separate diskless client and file server, to be all kept powered down as much as possible, ie. none of the 2 or 3 systems should ever need to remain up 24/7. Only the machine with the tuner and the machine with the storage should need to be up during recordings. Only the client machine and the file server should need to be up when playing back previous recording. If playing live TV, only the client and the tuner server should need to be up, not the file server. If pausing live TV - ie. delayed, then the storage server also needs to be up.
All this can be accomplished in a number of different ways. I have been admonished before about suggesting specific ways to implement things in software, so I will abstain from doing so, and only state what I would personally like to see supported. Maybe this is for MC78 and not MC25, but one can dream :-)
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Why? Does not make sense to me.
To come up with a shorter use case:
I could be in my home theater downstairs watching TV live or time delayed using my HTPC and one of its 5 OTA tuners. It would be recorded locally. That would leave up to 4 ATSC tuners still available.
My husband might want to simultaneously view TV too from his laptop, which has a fast 802.11ac network connection, and a local SSD. He could decide to pause TV, and possibly record some programs to his local disk. He probably wouldn't be initiating an timed recordings from that laptop though.
However, there is also a second HTPC upstairs. It's a desktop, and just like his laptop, has 802.11ac wireless, and a local SSD. Since this one never moves, it could be set to use some of the tuners of the HTPC downstairs, and programmed to make some recordings to its local SSD.
My mother might come to visit with her tablet and want to view live TV as well. Maybe if there is something she likes, she can decide to record some shows to her tablet's (limited) local storage and take them back home with her to France. I can't stream the data to her over that distance, because Comcast has a ridiculous upload cap at 40 Mbps, and 1TB per month data cap. So, keeping the data in the same house as the tuners does her no good.
I hope that's enough possible use cases. When there are a lot of tuners in a single machine, and a lot of local network bandwidth, one can imagine many different scenarios. Not everyone is necessarily going to share the same tastes in programming and save programs into a single shared library, or store their library in a single location onto a single file server. So I can certainly see why one might want to record from different devices, and onto different storage locations.
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The Server is, of course, the JRiver Media Center Server, which is MC running on a PC (Windows), Mac (OSX), or Linux box, with Media Network turned on. It doesn't even need the DLNA Server function turned on, when you are connecting from another MC installation, and you don't need Media Network turned on in the Desktop PC either. Just set up the Client Options under Media Network in the Desktop. When you do connect from the Desktop PC to the Library on the HTPC, the HTPC is acting as the Server, and the Desktop PC is acting as the Client.
Yes, it sounds like your Desktop PC is trying to use the local ATSC tuner, which it should only try to do if you have run TV setup on the Desktop, I think. Although my Workstation Client does see my local webcam, so maybe MC sees all devices whether TV setup has been done or not. It has been a long time since I set up tuners!
I think if you go into TV Options on the Desktop, click on the Tuner Profile at the bottom, then click Configure, you should be able to uncheck the local ATSC tuner, which will deactivate it. Then playing TV channels on the Client, when connected to the Server, should work.
I can certainly conceive...
All this is supported in MC now, but you do have to decide where you want recordings stored, and use a mapped drive or URI to point to that location. You could have a diskless MC Server, a diskless MC Client, and a Windows Server for storage of media files. However, it wouldn't be a good idea to have a diskless server, because it is best if MC stores its Library files (not the media files) on a local fast disk, if you want MC to be repsonsive. Best practice is to have at least a local boot drive with MC and its Library on it, and to use an SSD for that local drive.
Windows takes care of waking and sleeping any of those. MC prevents resources it needs from going to sleep while it needs them, but doesn't get involved in putting them to sleep. Just set up the sleep functions on each PC and let Window handle it. You certainly don't need any special script for it, just normal Power Management settings.
Whenever you are watching Live TV, or using Time Shifting, MC needs access to a disk drive, as MC saves temporary JTV files even when watching live, in case you want to rewind the program, and probably for some buffering.
To come up with a shorter use case:
Okay, so now you are pushing it a bit. I won't respond to all that, but much is doable if you understand how MC works. Probably not the recording locally to Mum's tablet, without any TV setup done on that tablet. I haven't played with this new functionality enough to work that out, but I think not. She can record the program to the Server, then copy it to her tablet before she leaves!
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I'm not completely clear on what the distinction is between "client" and "server" here. What server are we talking about here ? Media Server ? Storage server ?
The place where my OTA coax cable comes is my home theater room. I have a HTPC in it running Win10, with 5 ATSC tuners. It records shows locally to a 1TB SSD using MC25. I normally watch TV in my home theater only, so this has worked for me so far. I just enabled the HTPC to share its library using the Media Network options. So I guess technically, you would now call this HTPC machine the "server" ?
I am typing this from a desktop PC in my home office, also running Win10 and MC25. It's connected to the HTPC via wired 10 Gb ethernet (there are two 10 Gb switches in between). I used the "Add library" feature to load the library from the HTPC. I am able to play TV shows from it just fine.
However, from my desktop PC, I can't use any of the tuners from the HTPC. When I go to the "Television" option on the sidebar of MC25 on my desktop PC, I see a list of all the TV channels that are configured on the HTPC. I double clicked one. It shows the name of the channel and program, and "Waiting for signal lock ...". And then nothing happens. Same is true on every single channel. Any idea why this is happening ?
Your HTPC is the server, and your desktop PC is the client.
The client has been able to use its local tuner for live viewing for years, provided the local tuners are properly set up.
In your case, the single ATSC tuner on the client has not been properly set up (no antenna hookup), and MC does not know it. That explains the behavior your described. MC will always try to use a local tuner for live viewing (i.e. you double-clicking on a given channel, or clicking "Watch" button after selecting a channel). MC will ask the server to serve a channel only if it can not find a suitable tuner on the client. You need to hook up an antenna to that tuner if you want to use it. Otherwise you can just completely rely on the 5 tuners on the server, but let MC on the client machine ignore the single tuner that does not have an antenna. The way to do that is to run "Manage Devices" on the client and select the tuner, and click "Configure...". You then select "Disabled" from the drop down "Tuner Type" list
I'm wondering if MC25 in this case is trying to use the HVR-1265 card that is in my home office desktop PC. I use this card only for video capture. It has one ATSC tuner, but no coax cable is plugged to the antenna input. If MC25 is trying to use the channel guide from the HTPC (server) with the local card in my desktop, that would certainly cause this "no signal lock" behavior. It also wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for it to be trying to do that, IMO.
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Most people who have tuners on the server would like to leave those tuners for recording purposes and use the tuner on the client for live viewing. This makes complete sense from the point of view of "saving" tuners. Since you have a tuner on the client, why not use it? The channels scanned on the server are "ATSC" channels and they should be playable from any computer that has an ATSC tuner. The second reason for using the local tuner is to reduce network load - when you do have a tuner locally, why bother going to the server with all that network load.
Since you have many tuners on the server, you probably do not care about "conserving" tuners (some people do care about it, even with more tuners than you have). Like I said above, you can hook up an antenna to the tuner on the client, or disable the tuner.
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Your husband can watch a TV channel on his laptop, utilizing one of the five tuners downstairs. I assume the laptop does not have a tuner, if it does, but he can not use it, it should be disabled. MC on a client first looks for a local tuner for playing a TV channel live (including time-shifted playback). If it does not find a tuner locally, it will ask the server to serve the channel.
Your husband can also schedule recordings from his laptop, but recordings will happen on the server. The recorded shows reside on the server and can be streamed to any client.
The same can be said about your mother's tablet, with one caveat - MC only supports TV functionality on Windows computers.
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Ah yes, Manage Devices. I keep thinking about the old way of managing TV setup. Apologies.
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The Server is, of course, the JRiver Media Center Server, which is MC running on a PC (Windows), Mac (OSX), or Linux box, with Media Network turned on. It doesn't even need the DLNA Server function turned on, when you are connecting from another MC installation, and you don't need Media Network turned on in the Desktop PC either. Just set up the Client Options under Media Network in the Desktop. When you do connect from the Desktop PC to the Library on the HTPC, the HTPC is acting as the Server, and the Desktop PC is acting as the Client.
OK, thanks, that clarifies it !
Yes, it sounds like your Desktop PC is trying to use the local ATSC tuner, which it should only try to do if you have run TV setup on the Desktop, I think. Although my Workstation Client does see my local webcam, so maybe MC sees all devices whether TV setup has been done or not. It has been a long time since I set up tuners!
I think if you go into TV Options on the Desktop, click on the Tuner Profile at the bottom, then click Configure, you should be able to uncheck the local ATSC tuner, which will deactivate it. Then playing TV channels on the Client, when connected to the Server, should work.
I don't recall ever doing the TV setup on my client; only on the HTPC, ie. the box with the physical tuners.
Indeed, I just clicked TV Options on my client, but the list under "tuner profiles" is empty.
When I click "Setup" (under General), nothing happens.
When I click "Manage devices", I see the digital ATSC tuner, analog tuner, and the webcam. There is a Configure button next to each one. I used it on the ATSC tuner and checked "disabled". Indeed, that fixed the problem !
Thank you very much !
One thing I found a little odd is that when I view live TV in the server HTPC (or time-delayed TV, with pause), the bit rate does not show in the "alternate display" text.
But when I view the live channel from the client PC, I do see the real-time bit rate. I guess that's because it's really playing the server's recording.
The fact that bit rate wouldn't show at the source device on the HTPC made it difficult for me to ascertain that I was getting the full original rate without any compression going on. I had originally selected a channel that happened to only have about 5.8 Mbps data rate, KQED-HD 1, according to my client. On the HTPC, it just didn't show the bit rate. After I started recording that channel on the HTPC, I could stop the recording, then play it back, then play that recording, and MC25 showed the bit rate, finally. This is a cosmetic bug, but it took some time to figure out.
I switched to another channel with higher bit rate, KPIX-5, which was at 15 Mbps, and matched it both on the server and client the same way.
All this is supported in MC now, but you do have to decide where you want recordings stored, and use a mapped drive or URI to point to that location. You could have a diskless MC Server, a diskless MC Client, and a Windows Server for storage of media files. However, it wouldn't be a good idea to have a diskless server, because it is best if MC stores its Library files (not the media files) on a local fast disk, if you want MC to be repsonsive. Best practice is to have at least a local boot drive with MC and its Library on it, and to use an SSD for that local drive.
Thanks ! At the moment, all my devices for recording, playback and storage have at least some amount of local storage, and boot from that local storage. It's certainly a PITA to administer a relatively large number of Windows clients at home, though. I wish I could have something that was more lightweight in terms of administration.
Windows takes care of waking and sleeping any of those. MC prevents resources it needs from going to sleep while it needs them, but doesn't get involved in putting them to sleep. Just set up the sleep functions on each PC and let Window handle it. You certainly don't need any special script for it, just normal Power Management settings.
Yes, I agree Windows takes care of these very nicely. I run Win10 on two HTPCs, my main desktop, and my husband's more recent laptop. His older laptop is still on Win7, though it is capable of Win10. My work laptop runs Win10, but is administratively locked down with group permissions, such that I cannot install MC on it (not that I don't know how to defeat, but I'm not inclined to do so).
The only two real computers I have that aren't running Windows in the house are my file server with Ubuntu 18.04, and an older PC (which used to be my HTPC, until a recent upgrade to Ryzen) transplanted to a new case that is running ArcaOS (ie. OS/2). Unfortunately, neither of those operating systems handle power management well. I won't speak of OS/2 since MC doesn't run on it, but Ubuntu seems only capable to manually go to sleep when I press the power button, or issue the "systemctl suspend" command from a shell.
The Ubuntu file server never seems to go to sleep on its own. I have been meaning to write a script to fix that, since it has a quite significant power draw, about 110W while the 5 x 10TB disks are spinning, and still 85W when they are not spinning. The heuristics are complicated, though. I basically have to collect stats from the NIC and/or various services, and figure out when it is idle long enough, and safe to suspend. I think the proper logic is built into Windows. Unfortunately, Windows, at least the client versions of Windows I have licenses for - doesn't have anything like ZFS. I'm running RAIDZ2 with ZFS on Linux.
Whenever you are watching Live TV, or using Time Shifting, MC needs access to a disk drive, as MC saves temporary JTV files even when watching live, in case you want to rewind the program, and probably for some buffering.
That makes sense, buffering has to happen somewhere. Using the local disk is certainly one approach. Maybe starting buffering with JTV files on a RAM disk would make some sense, either on the client or server side, if either one has enough RAM, to speed up the live playback, especially when channel surfing.
Okay, so now you are pushing it a bit. I won't respond to all that, but much is doable if you understand how MC works. Probably not the recording locally to Mum's tablet, without any TV setup done on that tablet. I haven't played with this new functionality enough to work that out, but I think not. She can record the program to the Server, then copy it to her tablet before she leaves!
She has an iPad 2 which no longer has an updated OS, so I guess she is SOL on that one. A Windows tablet would work, I suppose.
Yes, copying to tablet before leaving is an option, but it isn't necessarily as intuitive, especially if one started watching a program from live TV, then decided they liked it and hit "record" to get the whole show. Of course, one does keep leave the tablet up and running until the show finishes. If recording at the server, the MC server with the tuner must stay up also. That part should already work, but mixing mom's library with her son's might be less than ideal. I have not actually tried this. In practice, she was watching more shows on Youtube that were pre-recorded rather than live during her last trip while I was at the office, not OTA channels with MC. I taught her enough to use the Dish DVR with the old Sony RM-AV2500 IR remote - enough that she managed to start the the projector, receiver, and dish box, and even control the X10 lights in the completely dark HT room. She also managed to watch a bunch of 4K blu-rays on the Sony UHD player. Not too bad for a 72 year old ! I won't say it wasn't laborious to teach her, and she took notes, but she figured it out and never called me at work because she was stuck. I don't think I could get to that same level of usability with Media Center just yet, especially the TV part, compared the Dish DVR UI. At the moment, I'm still paying $40/month for Dish still and mostly watching HD locals from satellite at reduced bit rate, even though I can also get from my 5 OTA tuners on the HTPC at higher bit rates. I'm really looking forward to the day when the remaining bugs I have it are resolved.
Speaking of bugs, here is another one that is more than cosmetic : I had a case earlier where my HD OTA channels were showing just a very small rectangle in the lower right corner of the screen. This was with MC25 maximized, and the desktop on my HTPC running at 3840x2160 (UHD). Tuner was local. It happened after doing a bunch of channel surfing. I haven't come up with a reproducible scenario yet. It wasn't just today, but happened in the past once also. The only way to fix it was to exit both Media Center and Media Service. This had the effect of stopping all the recordings that were ongoing. When I ran into this, the "Stop" button in MC25 did not have any affect, also. OTA video content just kept player. Certainly a strange one.
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Your husband can watch a TV channel on his laptop, utilizing one of the five tuners downstairs. I assume the laptop does not have a tuner, if it does, but he can not use it, it should be disabled. MC on a client first looks for a local tuner for playing a TV channel live (including time-shifted playback). If it does not find a tuner locally, it will ask the server to serve the channel.
Your husband can also schedule recordings from his laptop, but recordings will happen on the server. The recorded shows reside on the server and can be streamed to any client.
AFAIK, no, his laptop doesn't have a tuner. But if it did, it wouldn't be too practical for a laptop to hook up coax :) Great to know that this works - I will install MC25 on it, I'm sure he will love this.
Edit: his older laptop running Win7, an HP dv7-2173cl, does have a built-in tuner, to which we never hooked up a coax, and for which no setup has ever been done.
I think it's a little odd when one is connected to a remote library that MC looks for a local tuner first, and not for a remote tuner first. In my case, MC was getting the list of channels from the HTPC server, on which I had run TV setup. But then, it was trying to reuse that list with the local tuner, on which I had never run the TV setup. Even if I had run local setup, and had a coax actually hooked up to it, it could be connected to an antenna pointed to a completely different place than the antenna connected to the HTPC. You would have to at least compare the local and remote channel list IMO, and decide which one to use. If a channel happens to be both in server and local clists, then you have a decision to make as to which one to prioritize in the software. But if a channel is only on the server's list, as was my case, since I had never run TV setup on my client, then the server's tuner should be used.
I think I might have run into this issue on the second HTPC upstairs as well in the past. That upstairs HTPC also has a Hauppauge card, and no coax hooked up. I think I tried to use one the tuners from downstairs before, and gave up because MC couldn't get the channels somehow. Not sure if it was the same "can't lock" problem. My husband uses the Hauppauge card in that second HTPC for video capture also, not for tuning TV channels. Yes, we have 4 Hauppauge cards in 3 different desktops in the house, but only one computer has coax hooked up ...
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Your HTPC is the server, and your desktop PC is the client.
The client has been able to use its local tuner for live viewing for years, provided the local tuners are properly set up.
Well, "provided the local tuners are properly setup" is a pretty big condition, especially if you aren't aware this is required.
3 out of the 4 desktops in the house have a grand total of 4 Hauppauge cards in them. Only one desktop has a coax cable hooked up to the card's tuner inputs.
The other 2 desktops each use the Hauppauge cards for capture only. They only have things connected to the s-video or composite inputs of the card. Nothing on the coax antenna / cable / FM inputs
In your case, the single ATSC tuner on the client has not been properly set up (no antenna hookup), and MC does not know it. That explains the behavior your described
Well, I think that's a matter of semantics, how well you document the requirement, and what you do in a failure case like this.
I settled on Hauppauge PCI and now PCIe devices for capturing composite/s-video after trying many USB devices that had all kinds of issues - would run on one machine with one controller, and fail on another one. This was extremely annoying after doing motherboard upgrades when USB chipsets change. There was no rhyme to what would work or not with the USB capture devices. So, the ATSC tuners are there coincidentally. AFAIK, Hauppauge doesn't make PCIe cards for capture only. The ATSC tuners are bundled with video capture capability. In any case, if you intentionally never intend to use the tuner, arguably, not having setup your tuner is not a mistake on the part of the user. If I go to one of these machines without coax, but with a Hauppauge card, and start Hauppauge WinTV, the program doesn't show me a list of channels to choose from, because I never setup the local tuner. For that matter, if I start MC25 and load the local library, and click "Television" it shows an empty channel list. That is all fine. The issue is when one MC connects to a remote server, which has tuners, and a list of TV channels, and then tries to re-use that remote channel list with the local tuner, even though TV setup was never run locally. MC should know the local channel list is empty because setup was never run, and thus it should not even try to use the local tuner, IMO.
Even if you want to make the argument that MC should try the local tuner in that case, should things really end with "unable to lock" error message after I double-click a channel in MC ? Maybe MC could inform the user that the local tuner is having issues, and perhaps offer to disable the local tuner, especially if the TV setup was never run on it ? Or offer to use the remote tuner ?
. MC will always try to use a local tuner for live viewing (i.e. you double-clicking on a given channel, or clicking "Watch" button after selecting a channel). MC will ask the server to serve a channel only if it can not find a suitable tuner on the client. You need to hook up an antenna to that tuner if you want to use it. Otherwise you can just completely rely on the 5 tuners on the server, but let MC on the client machine ignore the single tuner that does not have an antenna. The way to do that is to run "Manage Devices" on the client and select the tuner, and click "Configure...". You then select "Disabled" from the drop down "Tuner Type" list
That did work, thanks, but I would never have figured this out on my own.
Since you have a tuner on the client, why not use it?
Because I couldn't purchase a single hardware card from Hauppauge that did capture only. It had both features in one package. There is no way at the OS/driver level to disable only the tuner hardware, but keep only the capture part active. If there was, I would certainly have done so.
My counter-arguments are :
- MC doesn't try to use a local tuner if connected to a local library. Same as Hauppauge WinTV
- if one has a local tuner and wanted to use it, it would be fairly obvious for a user to know that they have to run setup on it. Whereas having to explicitly disable a tuner that one never wanted to use in the first place is far more complicated and rather non-obvious, and apparently has caused me to be unable to share my tuners over my local network for years ...
The channels scanned on the server are "ATSC" channels and they should be playable from any computer that has an ATSC tuner. The second reason for using the local tuner is to reduce network load - when you do have a tuner locally, why bother going to the server with all that network load.
Don't assume that is always what's intended. Surely it is possible for MC to detect that the local ATSC tuner has never been setup by the user in MC, and never use the tuner until it is setup. Never having setup the tuner should be a sufficient hint that the user does not want to use that tuner. Offer the option to set it up, if it has not been setup yet.
There might also be a software way to detect that nothing is actually hooked up to the local tuner automatically, so that MC can skip it and go straight to server.
The assumptions that one wants to :
a) save tuners
b) save network bandwidth
Are of course completely untrue in my case. My MC server has 5 tuners. And I have at least 10 Gb/s of full-duplex bandwidth on each of the MC server and MC client end. And my network is setup such that I have ample bandwidth, even on wireless, to stream at least one HD channel, and probably far more. No iperf result has come up under 100 Mbps on wireless. The only thing that comes in (well!) below that is the powerline AV1200, which is use only for some very low-bandwidth devices, or for WOL, since wireless WOL doesn't actually work with any of my wireless NICs (WOL option not even available in wireless NIC drivers).
I suspect many others have local networks that have ample bandwidth for ATSC streams. I have been on gigabit LAN at home since 2004, or 15 years ago. I only recently switching to 10 Gigabit LAN at home - upgrade started in December and mostly done as of last week. Wireless N is capable of 1 ATSC stream at least, and often multiple streams. That's been ratified as a spec since 2009, 10 years ago. Wireless AC is from 2013 and can provide real world bandwidth of 400 Mbps or more, enough for >20 ATSC streams.
Since you have many tuners on the server, you probably do not care about "conserving" tuners (some people do care about it, even with more tuners than you have). Like I said above, you can hook up an antenna to the tuner on the client, or disable the tuner.
Right, I do not care about conserving tuners on the server at all. Hooking up an antenna on the client is not a good option. That involves having to run coax to multiple places, probably >300 ft, and multiple signal splitter or amps.
We had the discussion about disabling the tuner above, multiple times. I think MC can do much better in this case.
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I suspect many others have local networks that have ample bandwidth for ATSC streams. I have been on gigabit LAN at home since 2004, or 15 years ago. I only recently switching to 10 Gigabit LAN at home - upgrade started in December and mostly done as of last week. Wireless N is capable of 1 ATSC stream at least, and often multiple streams. That's been ratified as a spec since 2009, 10 years ago. Wireless AC is from 2013 and can provide real world bandwidth of 400 Mbps or more, enough for >20 ATSC streams.
To add to the question of "why not use a local tuner" :
If one is sharing their MC library and OTA TV tuners over a slower WAN (ie. Internet / VPN) rather than LAN, then one would likely want to conserve bandwidth indeed. I have not tried this myself yet
However, in that particular case, if the client has a local tuner, it's very unlikely that you would be able to actually use it, since the client might be located in a completely different geographic area than the server. Even if the local tuner is actually setup with an antenna hooked up, that local tuner is much less likely to be able to access the same OTA channels as the server's tuners. Therefore, I think there are not many situations in which you actually want to use the local tuner when connected to a remote library.
Those situations would be mainly :
1) if the local tuner was ever setup by the user in MC, ie. has a non-empty channel list
2) only for channels that exist both in the local tuner's channel list, and the remote server's channel list
At that point, I agree that it makes sense to use it.
But for channels only on the server's tuners channel list, only the server's tuner should be used.
And for channels only on the local tuner's channel list, only the local tuner should be used.
As a sidenote, any single tuner might have a different channel list, whether on the client or server. MC asks me to provide the zip code and area for every single one of the 5 tuners on my HTPC during TV setup. I find that mildly annoying, given that all 5 tuners have coax coming from the same OTA amplifier, and all have the same channels on each one of them. But I understand other users might have 5 different OTA antennas pointed in different places, and thus for those, asking 5 times make sense. It's not always possible to have a single antenna, and merging multiple antenna signals into a single common coax can be problematic for the signal. Perhaps there could be an option in MC somehow to tell it that all the tuners have the same layout, to avoid being prompted so many times. Maybe some sort of question along the lines of "do you have multiple TV antennas connected to this machine's tuners, or just one ?" in the TV setup wizard, perhaps, if the machine has more than one tuner.
What does all this have to do with the remote connection ? Well, if one does have, say, 5 remote tuners and 1 local tuner, each with a different OTA antenna and different channel list, then MC on the client would have to select the correct one of the 6 tuners that actually features the particular channel when double-clicking on that channel. My setup is fortunately not that complex that it requires this level of granularity, but other users setups might.
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Thank you for your inputs.
The current implementation was the result of users' request. For the future perhaps when a client has never been used for TV in the past, we can pop up a question and ask the user whether the local tuner should be used.
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Thank you for your inputs.
The current implementation was the result of users' request. For the future perhaps when a client has never been used for TV in the past, we can pop up a question and ask the user whether the local tuner should be used.
Thanks. I can certainly understand users have different needs. Such a question would work fine if initial tuner setup was never done.
Julien
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I haven't read the whole thread. But, Thank You! I have been waiting for this for *years*.
I assume this requires both server and client to use MC25?
Osho
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I haven't read the whole thread. But, Thank You! I have been waiting for this for *years*.
I assume this requires both server and client to use MC25?
Osho
Yes