INTERACT FORUM
Windows => Television => Topic started by: deyoungberg on March 09, 2011, 09:06:13 pm
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I have a Ceton Infinitv quad cable card tuner in my pc.
Is there a plan to support cable card capable tuner cards, and specifically the Ceton model?
Please let me know.
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I'm fairly certain that the CableCard tuners require both certification from CableLabs (though I know they relaxed it somewhat recently, I think you still have to pay the fee), and a DRM implementation. I don't think you're likely to see either with MC anytime soon.
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CableCard tuners require both certification from CableLabs [...] and a DRM implementation.
Not what the OP asked, but just curious: to work at all? Or can you use the card as a glorified 4-channels $400 tuner for the copy-freely content?
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It won't recognize it at all. It is installed and works great through windows.
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List price just went down to $265 from $399-. Quite a price drop.
Plus the Ceton software has been upgraded to allow for full network access (streaming).
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Is anyone else using this?
www.cetoncorp.com
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Not what the OP asked, but just curious: to work at all? Or can you use the card as a glorified 4-channels $400 tuner for the copy-freely content?
I believe it is to recognize it at all. At least that was the scuttlebutt from the SageTV folks as to why they couldn't support the Ceton cards. The DRM is part of the CableCard system, which is how it gets access to the digital cable at all without using a cable-company supplied cable box. It isn't about the copy-freely flag. It never even gets that far.
I would love to be able to use one of these, but no DRM is a hard/firm requirement for me. Even if the DRM wouldn't prevent many of my uses for the recorded content (it would), it is also about the principle of the thing.
If I record it, I want to be able to do what I want with it.
If it is going to have DRM anyway, I'd just cancel my cable service and spend my money on iTunes/Netflix, thanks.
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That's bad; I'll stick with my first generation HDHomeRun (are they doing the same thing with their Prime products, since it's a CableCard affair, all other things being equal?).
Glynor - look up, you got PM
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I've been using one since the first batch released. GREAT tuner.
Is anyone else using this?
www.cetoncorp.com
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Is anyone else using this?
www.cetoncorp.com
I don't think that many Ceton users are using MC 16. Ceton will tend to keep you in WMC as the only support for Ceton outside of WMC was the "unofficial" support Sage had. Which worked fine for those channels market copy freely. People would like support in other environments. Windows Media Center is such a close box... people kind of have very mixed feelings about it.
Red October/madvr for live TV would be wonderful. These tuners are becoming very common..
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I don't think that many Ceton users are using MC 16. Ceton will tend to keep you in WMC as the only support for Ceton outside of WMC was the "unofficial" support Sage had. Which worked fine for those channels market copy freely. People would like support in other environments. Windows Media Center is such a close box... people kind of have very mixed feelings about it.
Red October/madvr for live TV would be wonderful. These tuners are becoming very common..
I'm about to be one of those few. I have the Ceton now; I like it and it works well. As soon as I pickup a few pieces of hardware I'll build another HTPC with MC in mind. As much as I like the Ceton I'll probably switch to the HD Homerun Prime in the near-term because I like the idea of network-based tuner sharing better than Ceton's internal approach. The bad news is that as a practical matter, I'll have to continue using WMC7 for cable-based TV.
Though I realize it is easy for me to say this, I do believe JR should develop support for the Ceton and HD Homerun Prime with a nice PVR-like UI so it can serve as a complete MC solution (and by extension viable alternative to WMC7).
Eric
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I have the Ceton and it works well. 4 tuners is almost enough. If the Cetons were dynamically assigned 4 would be about all most folks would ever need. I may pick up one of the Silcion Dust variants to give me a couple more. I hate to pay a rental for a second cable card though.
Hauppage is bringing to market a two tuner variant of the HD Homerun Prime cable tuner pretty cheap. I might pick up one. That would be six cable tuners, so in combination with 2 dual Homeruns ATSC tuners that would be ten tuners, in that situation one should never be without a tuner no matter what kind of fleet you have at home.
I can only dream about Red October/madVR playback quality for cable tuners. I might sign up for NFL network if I could get cable TV with madvr caliber rendering.
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Is anyone else using this?
www.cetoncorp.com
The Ceton tuner card is what made my HTPC a functioning part of my entertainment system. Before the Ceton tuner card my HTPC would just sit there under the TV and play blu-rays every once in a while. Now my HTPC is my Cable Box, DVR, Music Server, and Blu-ray Player. I would love it if JRiver could support the Ceton tuner card but I dont see that ever happening due to DRM. One thing that bothers me is switching between JRiver and WMC because it ruins the seamless 10ft interface you should have when using a HTPC. It would be nice if there was a way to integrate JRiver into WMC so JRiver could be launched from within WMC like TMT5.
I live right next to Fluid Digital which is one of the original suppliers for the Ceton tuner card and I can tell you first hand that they would ship out several hundred tuner cards per week. There was and still is a huge demand for the Ceton tuner card because it is the key to making a functional HTPC. The HTPC community has been waiting for something like the Ceton tuner card for a very long time. I was one of the first to get mine and it has been absolute bliss ever since.
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Welcome to the forum. We recently received a Ceton card. It's possible we may be able to support it.
DRM won't be an issue technically, but I'm afraid it uses the higher (more expensive license) of the two levels of DRM that Microsoft offers. We have worked well with the lower level for more than five years. The higher level has a $10,000 price tag, plus certification fees.
One thing that bothers me is switching between JRiver and WMC because it ruins the seamless 10ft interface you should have when using a HTPC.
I don't understand what you mean. MC has Theater View. Hit F11 a couple of times or choose it from the View menu.
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Welcome to the forum. We recently received a Ceton card. It's possible we may be able to support it.
DRM won't be an issue technically, but I'm afraid it uses the higher (more expensive license) of the two levels of DRM that Microsoft offers. We have worked well with the lower level for more than five years. The higher level has a $10,000 price tag, plus certification fees.
I don't understand what you mean. MC has Theater View. Hit F11 a couple of times or choose it from the View menu.
I use the Ceton card through Windows Media Center for watching and recording TV and then exit Windows Media Center and switch back to JRiver to listen to music and watch movies. I have to switch between two programs unless I am missing something?
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MC with my Ceton card would be like HTPC heaven. I hate having to switch back and forth, music, tv, music...
Welcome to the forum. We recently received a Ceton card. It's possible we may be able to support it.
DRM won't be an issue technically, but I'm afraid it uses the higher (more expensive license) of the two levels of DRM that Microsoft offers. We have worked well with the lower level for more than five years. The higher level has a $10,000 price tag, plus certification fees.
I don't understand what you mean. MC has Theater View. Hit F11 a couple of times or choose it from the View menu.
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I don't think support for OCUR Tuners need be free. It could be an add on. A few hundred add on licenses could go a long way to manage extra license cost faced by JRiver. Ceton/HD Prime user would probably jump, you might even be able to get a seat licencse charge if you implemented an extender mode. People go out and buy XBOX 360s that they don't want jut to view the Ceton in other rooms when they already have PCs in that room.
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One thing that bothers me is switching between JRiver and WMC because it ruins the seamless 10ft interface you should have when using a HTPC
I think I understand. (I apologize in advance if I don't understand and I'm just making this up :))
Are you using a Windows MCE remote to control both programs? I'm assuming you're using JRiver's MC in Theater View.
If you leave both programs running, you'd have no way to switch between them, or to direct commands to only the program you wish to use.
To get past this, a program like Event Ghost or Girder is a viable solution. I run Beyond TV and MC17 simultaneously on my HTPCs and Event Ghost lets me switch between the programs. Also, once I switch from one program to the other, it will then send the correct keystroke command for the program that has been selected.
This lets me leave both programs running on the HTPC. I realize the interface changes when you switch between the programs, but that's really no different that what you'd get calling JRiver MC from Windows MC to play audio files.
I posted a bit about what I did here (scroll about halfway down):
https://sites.google.com/site/lhwidgetssite/home/00-computers-as-a-source-component/making-it-work
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I agree with this and strongly believe that native cable tuner support within MC would deliver the last key piece to allow the software to serve as a complete, valid alternative to other media centers-WMC included.
I use the internal Ceton now and would definitely pay a reasonable fee to be fully supported within MC.
I don't think support for OCUR Tuners need be free. It could be an add on. A few hundred add on licenses could go a long way to manage extra license cost faced by JRiver. Ceton/HD Prime user would probably jump, you might even be able to get a seat licencse charge if you implemented an extender mode. People go out and buy XBOX 360s that they don't want jut to view the Ceton in other rooms when they already have PCs in that room.
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One thing I think needs to be clear. There are two current approaches to networked cable tuners on the PC. The first is the Ceton approach where the tuners are statically assigned and only available to the PC they are assigned to, the second is the SiliconDust approach with the HD Primes which is similar to the HD Homeruns. The tuners are dynamic and are available to any Win 7 WMC box on the networks on first come first serve basis. Both approaches have advanteges and disadvantages. Either way if used for whole house TV one is likely to run out of tuners and that is why so many folks buy XBOX 360s that they don't really want. The XBOXes are used as Windows Media Center Extenders. It is not that people are against spending the money on the XBOXes... it is just they are pretty much TV only.
People want extenders in software that allow full tuner sharing while having full access to all the capbabilities of the HTPC.. Sage provided a great ecosystem.. but Sage did not support the DRM to make the cable tuners fully functional. Non protected content worked great on Sage Hardware Extenders or their Software Clients.. A lot could be learned by JRiver by building out a home infrastructure with a Ceton and and a mix of HTPCs and XBOXes.
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MC works with Xbox and PS3 and most DLNA devices already.
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Again, another good point concerning Xbox which only amplifies the value of a MC cable solution in software. What if I don't want or need Xbox's throughout the house? For me, I like the idea of DIY "lite" HTPC clients to fill this role (running MC of course) ;D
To this end I believe there is money for MC to make here over time, notwithstanding the licensing fees Jim mentioned previously. It is true that it may take some time to recapture the up front development costs involved but the payback will be a complete, feature rich, media center solution that would allow users to forsake all other competitors.
I wouldn't consider speaking for anyone else on this thread, but for me the value add of cable support is clear.
...Either way if used for whole house TV one is likely to run out of tuners and that is why so many folks buy XBOX 360s that they don't really want. The XBOXes are used as Windows Media Center Extenders. It is not that people are against spending the money on the XBOXes... it is just they are pretty much TV only.
People want extenders in software that allow full tuner sharing while having full access to all the capbabilities of the HTPC.. Sage provided a great ecosystem.. but Sage did not support the DRM to make the cable tuners fully functional. Non protected content worked great on Sage Hardware Extenders or their Software Clients.. A lot could be learned by JRiver by building out a home infrastructure with a Ceton and and a mix of HTPCs and XBOXes.
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Jim:
I've been using Media Center since v.9 and wanted to add my support to those asking you to support the Ceton tuner card.
Your software is a great and I marvel how you've been able to keep it current. I originally used it for the audiophile features and relied on mpc home cinema, media browser, shark007 and other various plugins to handle video. The fact that I now use MC for pretty much everything is really satisfying.
The one missing piece at this point is HDTV. Where I live, OTA is impossible; you must have cable. Therefore, the Ceton card has been great even though it is/was expensive and was in short supply when released. Since those early days (which was only this past summer) I believe it is clearly a critical component for many of us who use HTPCs or who have it on a WHS box and use the tuner bridging to provide service to the various PCs within our home. If we could do this within Media Center v. having to fire up Windows Media Center just for this reason that really would be, at least for me the last piece of the puzzle.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not wild about having to pay a "surcharge" just because I have a Ceton. However, if that is what it takes to get you to support the card then it's likely I would (depending on the amount of the surcharge of course). In the end though, however you decide to proceed (from a pricing standpoint), adding support for this product is where I think you need to go and is consistent with the course you have taken over the years.
Just my $.02.
oneklakes
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Thanks for the kind words. We would definitely like to support Ceton, but there are some obstacles. It's not clear yet whether we will be able, but we have a card, we're working on it, and we've had excellent help from Ceton.
I have to say it's only about even odds right now, so don't uninstall WMC yet.
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Jim:
Thanks for quick response. "Uninstall WMC" now that's funny! On the other hand, uninstall JMC, "you'd have to pry it from my cold dead fingers" or whatever that's supposed to read, you know what I mean... :)
oneklakes
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(http://www.pix01.com/gallery/8D12431D-7EA0-495D-9EA2-775091458CB9/Charleton_Heston/6085532580.jpg)
Charlton Heston (1923-2008) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlton_heston)
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:)
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Thanks for the info about this device. I've been thinking about getting something like this for a while and this meets the specs I've been wanting including a USB version so I can connect it to my vmware server that runs my house MC. I would LOVE to use MC with this. I don't use MC for Video now, this would push me over into both the Video AND Audiophile camps.
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I don't think that many Ceton users are using MC 16. Ceton will tend to keep you in WMC as the only support for Ceton outside of WMC was the "unofficial" support Sage had. Which worked fine for those channels market copy freely. People would like support in other environments. Windows Media Center is such a close box... people kind of have very mixed feelings about it.
I use both Ceton and MC 17. Ceton + Xbox 360 for tv, MC + PC for everything else.
DRM with the copy once flag is a real issue that would have to be worked out for multiroom viewing. Right now if I record a 'copy freely' program I can watch it anywhere, including my Mac in my office or on my iPad (after transcoding). 'Copy once' programs can only be watched on the PC that recorded them, or through an approved extender device (of which the XBox 360 is the only current game in town). To make matters worse, if you ever make a change to the PC that recorded the shows, they can become unwatchable. Even changing drivers can break the DRM (personally had this happen switching between AMD and Microsoft HDD drivers).
For MC to be a viable option for cable TV, it would have to support recording on one PC and playing back in other rooms (preferrably though other systems running MC or an inexpensive MC extender device with the full Theater View UI. That and the UI would have to be at least as good as the current WMC UI for TV. Not a very high bar, but it is head and shoulders above the cable box software.
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Jim - you can add me to the list of MC owners who also uses the Ceton InfiniTV 4 cards. I've got a pair of them in one of my PC's and would be thrilled to be able to use them with J River. Some sort of extender solution that includes the TheaterView (so not DLNA) would be pretty important for those who have channels marked as Copy Once so you can see a nice presentation of the meta data when selecting a show to watch. I need to remember to add my current Recorded TV folder from WMC to my J River library and see what the presentation looks like (is the meta data from WTV files used yet in MC17?). I also haven't played around at all with the TV recording features in MC, so I have no idea how strong that is compared to BeyondTV, SageTV, and WMC at this time.
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Another vote here>
I'm running my Ceton inside WMC for TV with a Xbox360 in the bedroom.
Audio gets the MC treatment & my reason for purchasing MC. ;D
Keep up the great work you guys.
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+1
Windows 7 with Ceton card and 4 Xboxes. I use MC for whole house audio system. (Loving new Gizmo app).
I would like to not have to be beholden to WMC and would be very interested in a solution from MC.
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Thanks for the kind words. We would definitely like to support Ceton, but there are some obstacles. It's not clear yet whether we will be able, but we have a card, we're working on it, and we've had excellent help from Ceton.
I have to say it's only about even odds right now, so don't uninstall WMC yet.
Making any progress with Ceton card or USB?
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I'm bummed JRiver MC doesn't support the Ceton InfiniTV card. I'm glad I found this out before paying for it, which I certainly would have done. However, I want an all in one solution, which for me includes PVR support for my tuner card (I'm trying to lose that darn cable box). Guess I'll check back every 6 months or so, although it doesn't sound to promising. Nice program though. I really enjoyed it.
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JRiver has to be working on some new goodies ;)
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Thanks for the kind words. We would definitely like to support Ceton, but there are some obstacles. It's not clear yet whether we will be able, but we have a card, we're working on it, and we've had excellent help from Ceton.
I have to say it's only about even odds right now, so don't uninstall WMC yet.
Has any progress been made to support the InfiniTV4 tuners? I really dislike WMC and would like to return to JRiver...
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MC 18.0.146 added support for Ceton devices:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=79010.0