INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 23 for Windows => Topic started by: JimH on August 08, 2015, 06:26:50 pm
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We've been talking about adding another user interface to try to make MC easier to play for people who aren't familiar with it. I don't know exactly where this leads, but I wanted to propose the idea and let you see if you can improve it.
For talking purposes, imagine that it has the functionality of Theater View, Gizmo, and JRemote. It runs on anything that MC does: Mac, Windows, Linux, and Android.
It might be a separate, but inexpensive product, but it uses MC's library.
It is colorful, more graphical rather than text, and touch friendly.
It can work on a TV, a computer, a tablet, or a phone.
But we won't call it Metro.
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This would be very exciting for me, especially if it ran on ARM.
I've been fiddling around with building small MC-powered touch-enabled devices (like a boombox with a touchscreen, or a raspberry pi media player with a tiny touchscreen for control) and I keep running up against a wall because there's no nice touch interface for MC for Linux/ARM (other than webgizmo, which has some drawbacks).
Some of the SoC's I've looked at can run android, so JRemote or Gizmo is an option there, but those SoC's are more expensive than a Raspberry Pi, and I'd need mediacenter running somewhere else nearby (or a solid wifi link) which makes a portable boombox not particularly achievable. I'd also be losing a lot of functionality (like a DSP stack). So I was kind of waiting to have a look at the native android music player that's been discussed, but wasn't thrilled about having to run android (as that rules out Raspberry Pi's).
Having a nice touch interface sitting on top of a full instance of mediacenter running on ARM or Linux would be amazing, and would allow folks (including you guys!) to put together a touch-controlled raspberry pi streamer, using little touchscreens the same size as a Pi for control (e.g. https://www.adafruit.com/products/1983 )
I'm very excited about this!
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I'm not interested at all on the surface, but mwillems has me thinking this could be the 'big thing'. The ability to run a Pi or a NUC that my wife can control into the TV sounds neat
Colour me intrigued
JimH, you say simple...I think the goal should be just that, really darn simple interface. My 2c for now...
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Very cool potentially. Can't wait to see something!
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if it works on my surface 2, you can count me in
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If your goal is dead simple for untrained users then consider a kiosk style mode. It would be locked in such a way that it would require a very deliberate key combination to switch to another mode. It would be very difficult to get to any place that didn't make sense to an untrained person. Large buttons or scroll areas make this kind of thing easy to use.
I'm patterning a lot of my thoughts around a touch screen jukebox I've seen in a restaurant/bar. Just about anyone can walk up to that box and find music they want to play. It has many thousands of songs and albums to choose from and is easily operated. That's the gold standard for "easy" in my mind.
Very interesting idea guys. :)
Brian.
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I'm patterning a lot of my thoughts around a touch screen jukebox I've seen in a restaurant/bar. Just about anyone can walk up to that box and find music they want to play. It has many thousands of songs and albums to choose from and is easily operated. That's the gold standard for "easy" in my mind.
That's exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking about. I've been working on a touchscreen boombox/jukebox that's semi-portable, and that's exactly the kind of interface I'm looking for. This could be really awesome.
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If this means Linux gets a theater view-esque interface, I'm all for it.
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I think this is an excellent idea. This could potentially fix many Theater View woes where people want more options for skinning. If you keep this in mind when building it, I believe you would have many happy customers. Keep as many of the "settings" in the skin as you can so people can change the look just by loading a skin. Font's, layout, menus, etc.
I would even go so far as to allow the views to be built into the skin, with the option to use your own. Many users don't want to build their own views, while others demand it.
Just my 2c.
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If this means Linux gets a theater view-esque interface, I'm all for it.
+1!
If this means the Id can drive my TV (and replace my Windows HTPC, then that's great). I like the idea of the Id, but without a Theatre View interface, it doesn't apply to me.
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I endorse this proposal. ;D
I want this.
I would absolutely pay for a separate product that gave me a simpler interface that is touch friendly and connects directly to the MC library rather than going through DLNA. Something with a KISS principle design. I'd love for an app like that to cover the majority of my needs for playback use and reserve my use of Media Center for geeky use and for importing new media files and for managing the library and for situations that are doing searches and things that are more geeky or technical. The new interface should be something that is simpler and more idiot proof.
I just put a 2 in 1 laptop in my audio system. One that can fold into tent view or presentation view. I'd love to be able to put that laptop into a Windows 10 tablet style mode and be able to control all the playback needs and display needs I have for playing music and video.
Is HTML5 based development able to do all this? Would that sort of development be able to create a native feeling Windows 10 Universal/Windows app? I'm mostly Windows based. But I also have an Android tablet. And would be willing to buy whatever is necessary to get a touch friendly interface with ease of use, kISS, but yet featureful enough that I don't feel limited or constrained for my typical use. The experience I'm after is worth paying extra for. l have a largish library of over 3000 albums that are a mix of rock, jazz, classical, and other music. Along with concert videos and movies. I need something that is able to handle classical music needs and rock/popular music needs. Considering how much I've paid for all the music and the audio gear, a little extra for an app that lets me browse it nicely and easily is a trivial cost.
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A new UI sounds like a great idea. I'm a big fan of forward thinking/looking graphical user interfaces. Specifically Sci-Fi film computer interfaces we see in films like 'Oblivion', the large sky house work station where we see those wide shots from above of a fantastic interface.
All fiction I know, but very good looking. The 3D UI's we see in Tron legacy 2010, and ENDER'S GAME, and so many more recent Sci-Fi films and TV shows. Like the TV show 'Extant', with its 50 years in our future UI's on the space craft and back on earth in a home enviroment. Check out season 1 and airing now season 2 of Extant for some good looking UI's.
The UI artists that do these jobs and dream them up. All mostly work on a grid base pattern. More food for thought ideas to look at. It doesn't hurt to look at them all to take on board some of the design elements. New forward thinking simpler UI designs will be the way forward in my opinion.
The back end all working in perfect sync with a very intuitive front end. No need for, well much less need for scripting code to be entered into text fields. As we progress into the next decade I would fully expect all this to be done behind very easy to understand UI for us end users. Icon views in graphical windows to wire nodes together, much like one does in 3D animation programs An easier way to visualize scripting. And keyboard mapping all done via in app UI pages and not xml/txt text files. Much like the best PC games would have keyboard mapping. Far easier to understand and use - in the UI.
Windows 10 design also offers up good number of design idea for a more simpler UI, but also the idea of node based icons for wiring up scripts pre-designed for the top scripted functions used. Visual node based scripting, like found in 3D programs.
And lastly, the way the UI animations work, in being very smooth in action. And for touch, offering a few variations for haptic feedback, sound and on/off/hover effects. With options to increase or decrease quality depending upon one's GPU.
Some food for thought UI's from Sci-Fi.
Prometheus Screen Graphics - here. (http://www.georgesimons.co.uk/5169/4080668/gallery/prometheus-screen-graphics) And here. (http://www.shaunyue.com/filter/film/Prometheus). An article about it here. (http://www.artofvfx.com/?p=2834)
Oblivion Screen Graphics here. (http://www.josephychan.com/Oblivion) And especially Here. (http://payload154.cargocollective.com/1/0/6068/5382227/screengrabs_A_09_960.jpg) And here. (http://payload154.cargocollective.com/1/0/6068/5382227/screengrabs_C_02_960.jpg)
Ender's Game Screen UI Design. (http://jayse.tv/v2/?portfolio=enders-game)
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For talking purposes, imagine that it has the functionality of Theater View, Gizmo, and JRemote. It runs on anything that MC does: Mac, Windows, Linux, and Android.
For me - nothing touches JRemote when it comes to simplicity and elegant design for our MC playback here.
If I were to vote on the option to a have a "simple" MC playback interface that ran on the Windows Desktop - all you guys need to do is "refine" a version of JRemote and make it PC/Mac desktop friendly.
VP
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It is hard to be sure about this without more details. But there are currently 3 remote interfaces, WebGizmo, Gizmo and JRemote, plus third party eos, plus Theater View. Adding another one might be spreading the interfaces too thin. The idea of taking one interface (maybe JRemote or maybe something new) and setting it as the standard and having it available everywhere is more appealing than yet another interface.
For me, a new graphical, touch friendly interface should be a standard part for MC (from a functionality perspective, not necessarily from a price perspective), with all the customizability of Standard View. It needs to be more flexible than any the current remote interfaces, yet have a simple look and feel. I would suggest keeping the the flexibility of Standard View and making it graphical and touch friendly. For me, that is a better approach than yet another interface that only does limited things. At some point the new user will come up against the limits, then the next stop is Standard View or Panes, neither which is a natural extension of a touch interface.
In short, MC should have one graphical, touch friendly interface that works across all platforms, including PCs, MACs, tablets, phones, etc. And, that interface, should have all the flexibility that is built into MC. That is a tall order, I know. But it seems to me to be the proper direction, rather than yet another interface.
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It is hard to be sure about this without more details. But there are currently 3 remote interfaces, WebGizmo, Gizmo and JRemote, plus third party eos, plus Theater View. Adding another one might be spreading the interfaces too thin. The idea of taking one interface (maybe JRemote or maybe something new) and setting it as the standard and having it available everywhere is more appealing than yet another interface.
For me, a new graphical, touch friendly interface should be a standard part for MC (from a functionality perspective, not necessarily from a price perspective), with all the customizability of Standard View. It needs to be more flexible than any the current remote interfaces, yet have a simple look and feel. I would suggest keeping the the flexibility of Standard View and making it graphical and touch friendly. For me, that is a better approach than yet another interface that only does limited things. At some point the new user will come up against the limits, then the next stop is Standard View or Panes, neither which is a natural extension of a touch interface.
In short, MC should have one graphical, touch friendly interface that works across all platforms, including PCs, MACs, tablets, phones, etc. And, that interface, should have all the flexibility that is built into MC. That is a tall order, I know. But it seems to me to be the proper direction, rather than yet another interface.
This was my initial thought as well.
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I think consolidation would be nice, but as a famous man once said, "make it as simple as possible, but no more so."
I wouldn't want to lose theater view just to get a unified touch-enabled interface. I think it would be nice to see convergence of the various touch interfaces into a cohesive cross-platform whole, but a ten-foot interface geared towards remote-based navigation is mission critical to my use case.
So my vote is for "Theater View" plus "New-cross-platform-unified-touch-interface-that-hopefully-looks-a-lot-like-JRemote."
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So my vote is for "Theater View" plus "New-cross-platform-unified-touch-interface-that-hopefully-looks-a-lot-like-JRemote."
I think that is along the same lines of what I'm thinking as well. If this "new simplified interface" supported good skinning you could do simple or even improved theater view - eventually. They could slowly add skinning features as they go along and eventually make most people happy. This would allow "future proofing" as well.
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For me - nothing touches JRemote when it comes to simplicity and elegant design for our MC playback here.
If I were to vote on the option to a have a "simple" MC playback interface that ran on the Windows Desktop - all you guys need to do is "refine" a version of JRemote and make it PC/Mac desktop friendly.
VP
+1
Another idea would be to maybe see if jriver could write or offer help for home automation/remote solutions. There is a lot of people who integrate their home appliances into one central managed system. MC has amazing client/remote functionalities to an unbeatable price. System integrators using for example rti or crestron to name only these two would certainly use mc more if control and feedback of it would be readily available to their platform. You will say use jremote or gizmo but as long as tablets such as ios or android do not allow to run a program in a program the user has to toggle from one to another.
Just my five cents
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+1
Another idea would be to maybe see if jriver could write or offer help for home automation/remote solutions. There is a lot of people who integrate their home appliances into one central managed system. MC has amazing client/remote functionalities to an unbeatable price. System integrators using for example rti or crestron to name only these two would certainly use mc more if control and feedback of it would be readily available to their platform. You will say use jremote or gizmo but as long as tablets such as ios or android do not allow to run a program in a program the user has to toggle from one to another.
Just my five cents
Further to this/
Neeo Remote (on kickstarter) looks promising for a more "budget-friendly" approach. They have Sonos integration already.
Logitech Harmony now has a Developer API for their Home/Ultimate, you could contact them.
As far as i can tell from my own experiments, MC needs the following 2 things to make life easier.
1. MCWS needs extending to do push feedback (e.g. playing now, track position, zone, etc), rather than long polling.
2. MC needs to be able to run Display View (full screen) reliably for Video via MCWS, especially if only running Media Server. It should also be a special mode where it never shows the normal UI on exit or whatever.
Would love to have
3. Extension points for custom OSD in display view. E.g i have a zoomable projector. I lose the OSD when zooming scope films as it projects on to black velvet. It would be nice to be able to move this up (or change it entirely to show poster/description/formats/etc), but also mask the black bars so variable aspect movies like Batman don't show the fullscreen IMAX parts in the overspill area.
By "opening" up MC like this, lots of developers could build their own UIs, even embedding into other front ends like Kodi.
I dont think you'll ever please everyone all the time. So, make the core stronger and let others (or yourself) customize to the interface of their choice.
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This is exactly what I've been waiting for! Something simple, pretty and - most important - touch-friendly that works on a Windows tablet and phone. Yes, me might be a minority, but some of us just don't like Android or iOS and we've been excluded from using JRemote. Based on feedback from users not familiar with MC (other than Theater View) I'm hoping for something like the apps for Plex or Emby which are very popular among non-tech users. Personally, I'd like to throw in more than a touch of JRemote, but as skinnable as possible.
For a long time I've been under great pressure from my better half to either buy an iPad (horror) or abandon MC (even worse), so this is really great news, guys!
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Maybe you could think of using a simple layout such as JRemote. my other half constantly moans about how difficult MC is to navigate
It needs to be clean , simple and have the look and fell of JRemote
Also think about PVR duties and how menu structures work on typical domestic PVR units ......... these usually are simple and intuitive to use.
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I like this idea because while I personally have few issues with the 'complex' interface, it does make MC intimidating to users I am trying to evangelize to. Getting someone off iTunes is hard when on first impression MC looks even more complex. I'm not sure how you simplify the interface while surfacing MCs amazing flexibility and power but perhaps the 'newbie' view could have a window that displays tips or pointers to deeper functionality when certain elements of the ui are interacted with (like smarlists or views, etc)? I have been using MC for a few years now and am still discovering useful features. A lot of touch based apps I have used start with a quick tutorial walking you through features/gestures/ui elements to help you get your bearings. That might be of use.
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I'm not sure how you simplify the interface while surfacing MCs amazing flexibility and power but perhaps the 'newbie' view could have a window that displays tips or pointers to deeper functionality when certain elements of the ui are interacted with (like smarlists or views, etc)?
I hope whatever this becomes - it sticks the principle of "simple". I see some of folks already starting to drift into the very complex... I may be off base here - but "simple" in my books should be aimed squarely at my wife - who threatens me incessantly about getting rid of MC because it's too busy.
Simple as in "I want to play some music for our dinner guests" or "I want to hear some Dire Straits". And she presses a button (or two) on the iPad/PC that says Music For Dinner or Artist Search and she gets what she needs in about 5 seconds. That's how simple this needs to be. Nothing that even gives the slightest hint of true MC complexity should be exposed on the UI.
A cut down (and locked down) version of JRemote would be perfect for this - but I also like the Spotify app too - simple and to the point with zero complexity. There are plenty of cool design ideas out there but whatever this becomes - if it starts exposing advanced MC features - it's probably gone too far. Do allow us tech types to "prep" the proper resources so this "simple" UI can see them but leave the fancy stuff in the normal advanced MC desktop client.
Fact is some folks just want to play music in as few button presses as possible. This is exactly why my wife reaches for Songza and crap like that. She is not interested in "advanced" or even "good" for that matter. She digs easy. Like - she will jam in a CD before even considering MC. That easy.
And - congrats if your SO is more tech savvy than mine - but that's a discussion that I can't wade into :)
VP
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Rather than another UI why not extend the existing.
1. TheaterView - for those who want to use a remote. Offer a "basic" kiosk version. Hide the Tagging/Zone switching/advanced options and it hard to switch to desktop/close/restart pc, etc. Fancy graphics are nice but not necessary.
2. Gizmo/JRemote - for touch users. Port to windows tablets. Already simple enough in my view for most people. But, cast it to the MC display so its not showing the desktop ui or a different place in theaterview or a black display view, all of which are off-putting.
I don't think people who are savvy enough to use MC will be overly keen on paying extra for a UI for others to use without the ability to lock down MC into "safe" modes. Otherwise, home "tech" support will remain an issue.
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I don't think people who are savvy enough to use MC will be overly keen on paying extra for a UI for others to use without the ability to lock down MC into "safe" modes. Otherwise, home "tech" support will remain an issue.
I think that WAF alone might justify a modest cost, but that's not the point of this thread.
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I think that WAF alone might justify a modest cost, but that's not the point of this thread.
$1 is still extra... but I think get where you are going with this, as it will be runnable on *anything* then it would be unlikely to use madvr and probably some of the other great stuff. I've guessed this based on your original post saying it will use the MC library not a new "View".
So, I'll add my suggestions to the Feature Requests thread.
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I don't want anything touch-friendly. There is already JRemote. I want something minimal for my desktop, like Winamp was. Playlists, minimal library features, data-dense and compact. I actually don't like the recent trend of bringing back touch and design elements to desktop applications.
So yeah. Something tiny and minimal like Winamp + media library + playlist support for most days, then I can launch all-out MC's normal interface if I need to do organization.
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Catching up on a couple of posts and a bit confused (as usual ;D)
Is this for spouses ( notice how politically correct I am:) SAF not WAF), children of power users etc; or is it rather for new users that aren't motivated/interested in learning the intricacies of the main program?
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That's right.
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That's right.
haha ... which one. or do you mean both
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Its for everyone who wants a simple and pretty interface.
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Is this something you're planning for the MC21 development cycle? Or should we be more patient?
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It's too soon to say. I'm working on a general purpose menu program that might evolve into this.
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Very interested!
I imagine not everyone that owns MC is as audio/video friendly as a lot of you but they still want exceptional playback on their sound system. There are so many features I find too confusing about MC, and I would say some of them are kind of over-kill if you ask me. But I love the quality sound and audio/video file organization MC has to offer among other things, but I am only using the bare bones of what MC has to offer and I don't even have a TV. I just use the video organization to hold all my videos and my service provider offers everything that's available on TV (well most everything) to be accessed through your computer. So when I want to watch something on TV (which is hardly ever) I just play them back on a huge computer screen with the sound running through MC which I find useful.
Would you believe I have had MC for 3 years and still haven't set up Theater view? My first reaction when I opened Theater View was that this is going to be great, but in order for me to get it just the way I want it, its going to take a huge amount of time reading and fiddling around with everything to get it just so and I just don't have the time. So I just use the regular view and it's okay with me, but I really don't want just okay, I want fabulous with a pretty face that doesn't need a lot of make-up. ;)
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There are so many features I find too confusing about MC, and I would say some of them are kind of over-kill if you ask me. But I love the quality sound and audio/video file organization MC has to offer among other things, but I am only using the bare bones of what MC has to offer and I don't even have a TV. I just use the video organization to hold all my videos and my service provider offers everything that's available on TV (well most everything) to be accessed through your computer. So when I want to watch something on TV (which is hardly ever) I just play them back on a huge computer screen with the sound running through MC which I find useful.
Would you believe I have had MC for 3 years and still haven't set up Theater view? My first reaction when I opened Theater View was that this is going to be great, but in order for me to get it just the way I want it, its going to take a huge amount of time reading and fiddling around with everything to get it just so and I just don't have the time. So I just use the regular view and it's okay with me, but I really don't want just okay, I want fabulous with a pretty face that doesn't need a lot of make-up. ;)
Exactly this. People want to use MC, but it takes so much time, reading, and testing to get working. What's in the box is fantastic, it's just the setup is very overwhelming. When you don't even have an hour in the evening to devote to this stuff, it can be a demotivator.
I see two cases:
1) A less-overwhelming interface for daily use when I just want to play music from my library on my pc.
2) An out-of-the-box experience that is less overwhelming and more inviting to new users.
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The out-of-the-box skin also contributed to my uninstall of MC 6 months ago when I demo'd it (mac): Dated (a nice way of saying ugly), clunky, didn't think the features I wanted existed b/c I couldn't find them after a quick survey of the app.
I'm back in the game, but only after devoting hours to read through these forums and wiki. The fact that they exist is great, but they shouldn't be a requirement for getting comfortable with MC.
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What about a JRemote version for Windows, Mac, Linux, Smart TV,... with Theater View functionality (compatible with the use of a remote control)?
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Its for everyone who wants a simple and pretty interface.
Simple, in that its very intuitive for users. And pretty in that its Forward thinking UI design which has a lot going on behind the scenes to do complex things, but shown in such a way its easy to turn on/connect up etc with some right click context menu options and small UI graphical windows. Think more node to node set up in some 3D animation and rendering programs, but on a far simpler scale. Connecting up scripts behind the UI. Just an idea.
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Many people discussing this seem hung up on the fact that several other interfaces exist. Why would the existence of 2 or 3 or 4 interfaces mean that creating another one would be a bad idea? Only if the new interface is no better than the others. But what if this new interface does what it's intended to do? Namely, to make using JRiver MC EASIER for everyone looking for simple interaction with MC.
How could that possibly be a bad idea?
I see full steam ahead for Pretty Face! As long as it works as advertised, I can't wait to see it. :)
Brian.
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Many people discussing this seem hung up on the fact that several other interfaces exist. Why would the existence of 2 or 3 or 4 interfaces mean that creating another one would be a bad idea?
But why invest time, resource and money to reinvent the wheel? If the wheel (JRemote for me personally) already exists.
And as far as being "better" - do we really need JRiver DEV to spend months storyboarding a bunch of new UIs - only to find that the one they could/should/might tweak is already there?
Unless I am truly missing the plot here - I have not seen anything on any media app that bests JRemote for sheer simplicity, elegant workflow and ease of use. Therefore - I do not understand how getting JRemote as an option into the Windows or Mac desktop - would not be considered Plan A for now.
VP
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Which illustrates my point about skinning: Define better. Who is going to make Pretty Face "Perfect" for user x? That would be an opinion, not a fact. Some say JRemote is already perfect. Others disagree. Never will consensus be found. Its an exercise in futility.
Different users have different needs/wants. No one interface or even 6 or 7 are going to fill them all. Having a skinable interface that can have an infinite number of possibilities comes closer. Users also want setup to be simple. So the layout/look/many settings/etc all need to be selectable by simply selecting a skin. That would come much closer to simple, and "perfect" for user x. It could also eventually be added to to allow more complex interfaces, and possibly appease those who ask for more from theater view etc.
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YEs Yes... this would be awesome. I have to work way too hard when having a party or letting the kids "drive" the music. I REALLY want to have a Table ready for a "jukebox" or quick movie player for someone. I really like your original description and would pay an App kind of fee to have this feature.
And a huge thanks to the new version MC21. Just downloaded, opened my audio library and like 2300 thumbnails are finally being fixed with album and cover art!!!!!
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Jumping into this rather late, but as someone who designs user experiences for a living, I thought I'd throw in my two cents :)
I'd advocate for not adding another interface. If the goal is to create a simpler experience for novice users, then making them choose between 4+ interfaces that all have slightly different functionality and requirements doesn't help that situation. Plus, once they get comfortable on the novice interface, then transitioning to the full MC interface to get the last mile of missing functionality just introduces another cognitive hurdle.
Instead, I'd suggest rethinking the default MC interface. I see MC as being a lot like Photoshop -- super powerful, but also overwhelming to new users. But even as a new user, I don't want the power to be hidden from me, because I know I want/need it. What I really want is for the power to make itself known as I need it (aka progressive disclosure). You also need a strong information hierarchy, which MC doesn't have, and host of other things that make for good UX.
Redoing the UX for an app as powerful as MC wouldn't be simple, but it would be an awesome project, made easier by having access to such an enthusiastic community :)
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I found this over on Github, but it is an interface for the Ipad. The software that was used is called Command Fusion Gui Designer.
https://github.com/CommandFusion/XBMC (https://github.com/CommandFusion/XBMC)
This is rather clean interface, but you can add more features via the setup icon in the upper right corner. The License for Command fusion is
rather inexpensive, but as a skin on the screen. Then you might want to look at Media Portal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRoAZkzk3M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRoAZkzk3M)
Majority of the posters have different ideas for JRiver Media Center, but the solution might be to develop a subforum for people to develop their own ideas.
There is a forum called Remote Control Central, but they did this method in the early 2005 on the Pronto Pro remotes. Phillips provided the software in the past.
People can post their photos of their new improved design, but you can use Command Fusion gui designer to develop those designs.
Command Fusion Gui Designer is often used as design tool for media players, but it was primary designed for remote control.
Photoshop is now available via the cloud, and the cost is rather low per month.
JRiver has no interest in developing Home Automation, but you could offer a forum for this feature. The device commands are ready available via the
manufacturer and other sources. This will allow people to develop this feature into JRiver, but I have tried to get other home automation companies to
develop this feature into JRiver. Control4 and Roomie Remote (Simple Remote), but those companies didn't have the interest into developing a 2 way ip driver.
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I already a bit frustrated between jremote and gizmo. I really don't want another.
I want standard and theater view to be better. Theater view should be the simple interface.
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Absolutely something I would be interested in but as mentioned above, make it easy for users to product custom themes/skins (I'm still after something like 1080XF that I used on KODI) and especially easier to view video walls (with perhaps 20-30 movie covers per screen).
This is something I could really see the wife and kids using
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I think it would be a better a idea to improve existing products in terms of UI:
- MC needs extended functionality to allow custom skins to perform more complex tasks and change the UI more drastically. There are amazing skins for Kodi, Plex & Co, but for MC are no good theater view skins because of this reason.
- MC needs support for cover art for arbitrary tags. So one could add cover art for genres, media types, keywords, etc. Also benefits the item above.
- Change the threshold for when a thumbnail instead of the original image is used when displaying covers: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=95795.msg659930#msg659930
- Better automatic scaling in standard and cover view, when resizing the MC window. The horizontal and vertical space between covers should stay constant. The covers should get bigger until one more cover can be inserted, when making the window bigger. The covers should get smaller until one cover can be removed, when making the window smaller. So when I set the cover art to a specific size, they can actually be a little bit bigger/smaller depending on the spacing option and the window size. This way, the cover view would look good at every size and wouldn't need adjustment after resizing.
- The 3d-Views both in standard and theater view need a big overhaul. Their performance is horrible low and they definitely need some antialiasing. Do these views even use OpenGL/Direct3D? According to the performance, they feel more like software rendering.
- Most of the default skins look like as if they are stuck in 2000. I currently use the Modern Cards skin, which is one of the only modern looking skins that are available.
- A better music visualization software. I think the integration of milkdrop 2 seems to be a good idea.
- In JRemote while scrolling through albums, covers should be loaded before appearing on the screen and kept be in the cache: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=97626.msg674184#msg674184
- The Website needs a redesign as well. If you do a Google image search with "JRiver Media Center" most of the pictures show the standard view with lots of covers. That's the kind of eyecandy people want to see. It triggers their collecting mania. The JRiver Website has 2 images showing some covers. After looking at all pictures on the website, I wouldn't have any idea how MC looks, if I had never used it.
The presentation of products like Plex or Emby are much better. Since the website is the place where new potential customers decide if they buy the application, it should be as visually appealing as it can be.
All in all I think a new application is the last thing MC needs. There are lots of legacy parts in the MC UI that need treatment. I would recommend to hire a designer. With a new website, a better presentation and more appealing skins, this will pay off faster than you think.
Edit: I just forgot that there is a Web Interface as well. I'm not sure if it is necessary, since there should be applications for all major platforms, but if you want it to have a future it needs an UI update too.
I also recommened to do this UI refurbishment thing better sooner than later. In the moment the market for these kind of applications is growing fast. New users are much easier to capture than users that have already settled with Kodi, Plex & Co.
In the Kickstarte campaign forum thread I've read:
If it doesn't get funded, we'll do something else.
It seems like that it won't get funded. But this isn't a bad thing. It is an opportunity to start a big UI refurbishment.
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Is this still under development?
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my take on a simplified, browser based, touch friendly, interface
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/mhwlng/sets/72157639348552513 (http://www.flickriver.com/photos/mhwlng/sets/72157639348552513)
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A html5 based user interface would be the way to go.
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This would be very exciting for me, especially if it ran on ARM.
I've been fiddling around with building small MC-powered touch-enabled devices (like a boombox with a touchscreen, or a raspberry pi media player with a tiny touchscreen for control) and I keep running up against a wall because there's no nice touch interface for MC for Linux/ARM (other than webgizmo, which has some drawbacks).
I wonder how far you could get with OneRemote (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=104489.0).
I hope we can work on WebGizmo a little sometime soon, so I'd be grateful to hear what limitations you have found.
Thanks.
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I wonder how far you could get with OneRemote (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=104489.0).
I hope we can work on WebGizmo a little sometime soon, so I'd be grateful to hear what limitations you have found.
Thanks.
The main limitation with using OneRemote in this application is that (as far as I know?) it only runs on Android. The raspberry pi and many other little ARM boards can't run android (in some cases not at all, in some cases not in a usable way), they just run plain vanilla linux (like the Id). Some dev boards can run android, but if I were using a device that could run android, there are already two very nicely developed touchscreen JRiver apps already available (jremote and gizmo) ;D
So on devices that can run android, there are lots of options. And on windows there's theater view which works great on my Surface Tablet. However, on vanilla Linux there's nothing but webgizmo, which has definite limitations on a touchscreen. If you were looking for specifics, here are the biggest issues I hit using webgizmo as a touch interface daily on a raspberry pi for about six months:
1) Unlike android gizmo, in webgizmo there is no load-on-demand infinite scrolling. Album views are broken up into pages with 40 or 50 albums per page. To switch pages you need to touch-press a fairly small hyperlinked number button at the bottom of the page. Additionally, only four or five numbers are available for press at any one time (the rest are ellipsized, like 1, 2, 3 ... 45). Android Gizmo and theater view both handle this through infinite scrolling, which would be nice for webgizmo. Barring infinite scrolling (which would be ideal), larger, easy to press page buttons would be better, although if that's the solution, it would also be nice to have an alphabet (like in standard view). As it is there's no good way to browse a large collection with webgizmo on a touch screen. To offer a concrete example, my music collection "album view" gets split across 50+ pages, and because the page numbers are ellipsized, getting to the "middle" of the collection is pretty hard. It requires two dozen clicks and page loads to get to the "M's"!
2) Unlike android, common desktop web browsers are not perfectly touch optimized. Many browsers (at least the the ones that run well on a raspberry) handle a touch screen by effectively treating it like a mouse. This means "touch and grab" android style scrolling does not work, you have to use the browser scroll bars. That makes scrolling even within the view pages challenging, as one has to grab the tiny browser scroll bar and drag it. By contrast, Android Gizmo provides a nice large "grab bar" for assisted scrolling once you start scrolling. An always-visible "grab bar" (like the one that appears on Android Gizmo, but always on) would be very nice to have in webgizmo.
3) Unlike an android phone, the touchscreens I'm dealing with have no dedicated "back" button (many non-android tablets like the MS surfaces also lack such a button). Webgizmo has no touch-friendly way to emulate this "back" function within the interface. One can, of course, use the browser's "back" button, but in an appliance-type setting you don't want the browser chrome to be visible/accessible to a user (they could break things), you want the "app" to run fullscreen and be self-contained. The lack of such a function within the interface makes navigation tough in full-screen. Once you've gone down a level, your only option is to go all the way back to the top, which (combined with the above mentioned paged-view navigation) means that a single mispress can force you to start over on a chain of 10 or 15 clicks. Gizmo for android relies on the fact that all android phones have a back button, but, a better example is theater view. I use theater view on a windows tablet with no keyboard or back button and it works great because theater view always includes a way to move back up one level (through the rollers). I definitely don't think webgizmo needs rollers, but it would be nice if webgizmo had an onscreen way to either do what the browser "back" button does or just move up one level in the view hierarchy. Even just doing it the way Kodi does by making the first item in any view be "up one level" would do the trick.
4) This is a cosmetic issue, but it bothers me, so I thought I'd mention it. The album cover thumbnails retrieved and displayed in android gizmo look nice and sharp, with no visible artifacts. Often, the exact same album art in webgizmo appears to include artifacts or aliasing. I'm not sure why that would be the case, but it's pretty easy to see if you look at the same album art in android gizmo and then in webgizmo on a browser on the same device. Art with large red or pink color fields seems to show it most prominently.
I've been tinkering with OneRemote and it seems to be coming along nicely, but it appears to be using the webgizmo backend? In any case, the same limitations with webgizmo appear to be present in OneRemote so far: paged scrolling, small numbers to change pages, no onscreen way to go up one level or back, aliasing in the album art etc. (although things are made somewhat easier in the android context by the presence of a hardware back button and native touch scrolling, etc.).
Gizmo and JRemote are both fantastic and hard to beat as dedicated media interfaces in the android setting though, they're very polished. In the desktop space theater view is also excellent. Any improvements to webgizmo to make it closer to those interfaces and/or more "touch friendly" would be greatly appreciated, although if/when theater view lands on linux it will solve most of these problems. In any case, I hope this helps, and I appreciate the chance to offer input ;D
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For me the question is - what's the objective behind it?
- addresses it the playing of movies, pictures or videos like JRemote, which is for me has an easy to use user interface with a high usability :)
- or does it address the management functionality of JRiver like ripping disc, media network configuration, madVR config etc., which is sometimes not so easy to handle?
I like to have more from the Options and the DSP Studio functionality on my JRemote or a new "Pretty Interface" which combines both - if JRemote is not longer strategic? (there were less new functionality over a long period of time)
Is that your goal?
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MC22 will have two new interfaces that were developed from this Pretty Face idea.
Panel (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=105883.0) is an HTML5 browser application.
OneRemote (http://engen.com/OneRemote/index.html) is a native Android app.
Both will continue to evolve.
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We're working on something that is a derivative of the Pretty Face idea.
Here are the goals:
Build a HTML5 web app that can talk to MC. It can access MC's library in much the same way that Gizmo and JRemote do.
Provide an extremely simple interface that anyone can understand. Minimal buttons, minimal choices.
The initial implementation will probably give a user a choice of 6 or 8 buttons. Each one will start a different playlist. The playlists will probably be whatever has been set for the Car Radio buttons These can be static or dynamic (smartlists, Playdoctor).
Once we have it right with playlists, we'll move on to other media categories.
Because it's HTML, it will run in any browser on any device. It will adjust itself to the screen size.
If you've used Panel, the interface will be familiar.
You will connect by entering a URL, something like: 192.168.0.44:52126
If we get it right, it should be dead simple for an inexperienced user to start audio playing on the MC server or on the client device.
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Glad to hear this is still moving forward.
One of my main problems with using theater view. Is trying to get to web media. If I had a nice way to get to my local media in chrome I might be able to better simplify getting to both.
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Jim - What you describe seems to require an administrator behind the scenes to set things up. This works, for example, if an experienced user wants to set up playlists for members of the family. However, what you describe does not seem to fit for a standalone novice user nor does it seem to allow for direct access to tracks or albums for the entire library through user selections. Just wondering what the current thinking is. Will general browsing options be added or will this be limited to administratively set up playlists and radio buttons?
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I think you need to offer something more than just a pretty face - a helpful listener would be a step change in functionality. Voice input is becoming increasingly widespread from Amazon, Google and Apple. Let's face it, most folk start off with the thought "Play Kind of Blue", you never start off thinking "Genres Jazz Artists Miles Davis Kind of Blue". Even a really good text based search could be useful - most people now have decent keyboard skills, at least with two thumbs.
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I am skeptical.
I understand the purpose to have a common simple app for android, ioS etc. to cut down development effort.
But the expectation of people buying specially expensive Apple products is to have an app like JRemote optimized to the apple ecosystem and the device. With a browser interface you have the lowest possible standard across the different UI technologies like swift etc.
Also the browser took a noticeable amount of screen space of your iPad etc.
I would prefer to have Standard View for managing MC as for today and to optimize and enhance!!! JRemote and the Android App. Supporting Windows touchscreen would from my point depend how many potential MC users want to have it.
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I think it would be great if jriver had a UX strategy and said something like "this is where we're going, we plan to deliver over the course of the next 2 release cycles (MC23 & MC24)" and that strategy provided for an admin interface along with the minimal set of content consumer interfaces required to service the supported platforms. IMV that would be a selling point.
Adding some other simple HTML5 interface (particularly one accessed via an ip:port combo that will seem pretty obscure to the non technical user) on top of the plethora of existing interfaces is not a selling point and seems more like a waste of scarce resources. Putting the effort into fixing jremote flaws and/or consolidating gizmo and jremote into one fully featured app interface seems like a better use of dev effort to me. I'm not sure why there is yet another app (OneRemote), perhaps that doesn't control MC at all. Confusing.
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I think it would be great if jriver had a UX strategy and said something like "this is where we're going, we plan to deliver over the course of the next 2 release cycles (MC23 & MC24)" and that strategy provided for an admin interface along with the minimal set of content consumer interfaces required to service the supported platforms. IMV that would be a selling point.
Adding some other simple HTML5 interface (particularly one accessed via an ip:port combo that will seem pretty obscure to the non technical user) on top of the plethora of existing interfaces is not a selling point and seems more like a waste of scarce resources. Putting the effort into fixing jremote flaws and/or consolidating gizmo and jremote into one fully featured app interface seems like a better use of dev effort to me. I'm not sure why there is yet another app (OneRemote), perhaps that doesn't control MC at all. Confusing.
The obscure HTML5 interface isn't meant for the target user. It can be saved as a desktop icon or as the home button in a browser. Someone else would set that up.
I assume you've taken a look at Panel. The best implementation is in the Lighting section which you may not use, but I use daily. It's an extremely simple way to accomplish a task. In this case, the task is starting music like you would turn on a radio. Two clicks. Once we get a little feedback, we'll expand the scope.
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What you suggest is a downgrade on jremote to me.
As far as I can see Panel is a single page that just collects links to an assortment of legacy plain html UIs (webgizmo, webremote, webplay) and the lighting thing (which I haven't seen so can't comment on it). You then have the 2 different apps that have different features and bugs and the main GUI. Ultimately my point is that it would be a (very) good thing to have a strategy for clearing away any legacy interfaces & building the minimal set of UIs (which may mean extending some existing ones or building something new). I would be surprised if that weren't a selling point given the number of posts on the subject of UX.
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So, nearly two years after the announcement of "Pretty Face", this is what we get? Something resembling a very basic and not very pretty remote, if I understand it correctly judging from the comparaison to "Panel" and its "familiar interface". On one hand it's meant to be "an extremely simple interface" with "minimal choices" (if we wanted simple we probably wouldn't be using MC in the first place), on the other hand it needs programming of smartlists that have to be set to the Car Radio buttons and then needs connection to a server via an obscure URL (which all aren't very simple for new users). I understand your goal when you compare it to "like you would turn on a radio. Two clicks.", but you don't mention that the user first needs to build the radio himself.
Please, someone correct me, if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is what most users have been asking for.
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So, nearly two years after the announcement of "Pretty Face", this is what we get?
It wasn't quite an "announcement". Here's the first paragraph of my opening post:
We've been talking about adding another user interface to try to make MC easier to play for people who aren't familiar with it. I don't know exactly where this leads, but I wanted to propose the idea and let you see if you can improve it.
If you have a better idea, then please post it.
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What you suggest is a downgrade on jremote to me.
It's not JRemote or a replacement for JRemote.
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Something else to think about is just how important is the interface for things like panel/ webgizmo, etc with things like IFTTT integration. With the added convenience of speaking commands to your media center, tablets, Ipads, etc. start to take on a new role. For me at least, I can use a traditional remote or maybe in the future a spoken command to do things like change channels, or play a song but I can't use those kinds of things for tasks that require me to sort through volumes of information, and make a choice. Google home does something similar when I ask for a recipe, or ask it a question in general. For instance I ask it, "How do I cook shrimp", and it responds with a short summary, and then sends a web search of the question I just asked to a tablet where I look up different ways to cook shrimp. In this scenario, each device is kind of optimized for its particular purpose.
For JRiver lets say I just want to play some music. I can tell my google home/ amazon echo to just play music but after a while my playlists get old and I want to discover new music or hear something I haven't listened to in a while. Then a tablet or something else that displays volumes of information all at once becomes more useful because it lets me sort through my music or even change music applications.
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For JRiver lets say I just want to play some music. I can tell my google home/ amazon echo to just play music but after a while my playlists get old and I want to discover new music or hear something I haven't listened to in a while.
Play Doctor is good for re-discovery of old music you have.
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Split Consolidate all the remotes (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,110750.0.html)
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I wonder how far you could get with OneRemote (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=104489.0).
I hope we can work on WebGizmo a little sometime soon, so I'd be grateful to hear what limitations you have found.
As I described in the "consolidate ..." thread, WebGizmo truncates tag values when it displays a list of categories. The thumbnails are not useful to me so I can't browse using WebGizmo. or Gizmo or Panel. An example
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Misc/i-zxVDhh9/0/ed4a4bfa/X2/panel_screenshot_05_2017-X2.jpg)
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For me JRemote interface and style the best!!!
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Here's the new interface:
Radio KISS (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,110995.msg767171.html#msg767171)
Before you use it, this isn't trying to be a more powerful Gizmo or JRemote. It may be best suited to your child or your parent, someone who has zero tolerance for complexity. It's a quick way to start music, without having to understand a program.
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Here's the original direction I outlined in the first post of this thread. I think Radio KISS is close. It's not a comprehensive solution (audio, video, etc.) but there's nothing to prevent us from building that, too.
I like the direction this is taking.
We've been talking about adding another user interface to try to make MC easier to play for people who aren't familiar with it. I don't know exactly where this leads, but I wanted to propose the idea and let you see if you can improve it.
For talking purposes, imagine that it has the functionality of Theater View, Gizmo, and JRemote. It runs on anything that MC does: Mac, Windows, Linux, and Android.
It might be a separate, but inexpensive product, but it uses MC's library.
It is colorful, more graphical rather than text, and touch friendly.
It can work on a TV, a computer, a tablet, or a phone.
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Here's the original direction I outlined in the first post of this thread. I think Radio KISS is close.
Really? To me it looks more like an extremely simple remote than what was outlined nearly two years ago. Maybe I read too much into this:
imagine that it has the functionality of Theater View, Gizmo, and JRemote
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I changed my mind. Sorry. We're not trying to do everything with this remote. Friendly first.
There are several other remotes that are comprehensive. This one is easier, in my opinion.
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I started a topic called Web Apps (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,111059.msg767613.html#msg767613) and it explains a little more about the direction we're taking.
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Just re-reading my original post (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,99290.0.html) in this thread. It's now been two years, but I think that Panel (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,105883.msg736617.html#msg736617) is pretty close to meeting the original goal.
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Please use this thread for Panel:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,105883.150.html