INTERACT FORUM
Windows => Television => Topic started by: JimH on July 25, 2022, 02:40:47 pm
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ATSC 3.0 is the latest standard in television. It provides some interactive features, some streaming features ("catchup TV", for example, and is generally more reliable than ATSC 1.0, which we think of as "digital TV".
It's available in some market areas in the U.S. now. More are coming.
JRiver Media Center 30 supports it now.
More About ATSC 3.0
TomsHardware (https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/atsc-30-explained)
Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATSC_3.0)
Instructions
Please see Yaobing's post below:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,133604.msg936484.html#msg936484
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If anyone is currently using it, please add more about how it works and what you like or don't like. Thanks.
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Quick requirements:
1. HDHomeRun CONNECT 4K (Model HDHR5-4K)
2. Tuner 0 and 1 ONLY
3. MC DMS Tuner Stream ONLY
4. MC JRVR video (I think)
Previously I had only tested recording some channels and playing the files, but most channels have no audio due to AC-4 audio. Had not tried Live Tv yet because I would have to redo my entire tuning method to DMS mode.
EDIT: Just configured the latest beta MC version on my laptop for DMS, and all ATSC 3.0 channels are working with audio and video! I'm getting five channels - noticed the audio on two of them audio is quite a bit louder than the other three. Likely due to the experimental AC-4 audio magic in MC :)
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It's good to know that playback of DMS channels works. I am still working on bda channels.
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I just downloaded version 29 to give ATSC a try. I decided to just add issues to this thread instead of opening multiple threads in the forum. Please let me know if I need to open individual issues.
1) One ATSC channel (CBS - 113) here in Sacramento does not show up in my guide. I see in the list of favorites but I don't see it in the guide. I played around with the favorites list for a while and disabled all the non ATSC channels except for PBS which does not seem to have ATSC support.
2) Audio balance was incorrect on ABC for Jeopardy and America's Got Talent on NBC, the left channel dominated. FOX was better for So You Think You Can Dance, but I only listened for about 1 minute.
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1) One ATSC channel (CBS - 113) here in Sacramento does not show up in my guide. I see in the list of favorites but I don't see it in the guide. I played around with the favorites list for a while and disabled all the non ATSC channels except for PBS which does not seem to have ATSC support.
What guide method do you use (XMLTV, SiliconDust, or OTA)?
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I am using SiliconDust.
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The channel has now appeared in the Guide.
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I reviewed multiple recordings from the location stations. All of those using AC-4 (ABC,CBS,NBC,FOX) had audio but the channel assignments seemed wrong. The sound was directed mostly from the front left channel, with a small amount from the right channel but nothing audible in the center channel. I made another recording on PBS which only has not adopted the ATSC 3.0 format and stereo sound was represented correctly.
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...I am still working on bda channels.
I see a lot of Tv related entries in the MC 30 release notes, but it's not clear if ATSC 3.0 BDA is working yet?
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The audio balance is still favoring the left channel in Release 30. I posted here since it seems like the place to track all ATSC issues.
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I see a lot of Tv related entries in the MC 30 release notes, but it's not clear if ATSC 3.0 BDA is working yet?
It works, but there are still a few wrinkles to be ironed out.
To be specific:
Playback of live channels in time-shifting and non-time-shifting works.
Scheduled recordings will work. Recording will be done in TS format only. JTV format will not be possible.
It does not work correctly if you tried to watch a channel while a scheduled recording is still going on. I am working on fixing that.
(EDIT) Also playing a channel from a client does not work if the tuner is only available on the server.
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Has anyone else seen the audio issues I have mentioned? The left front channel is dominant and some stations have main channel audio coming from the left rear surround in my 5.1 configuration.
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Can you provide a short recording demonstrating that?
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Has anyone else seen the audio issues I have mentioned? The left front channel is dominant and some stations have main channel audio coming from the left rear surround in my 5.1 configuration.
Yes but I have not done enough testing to figure out which audio channels are louder than others. I seem to remember this same issue was reported in the silicon dust forums when they first started trying to decode AC-4 audio in their windows app and streaming devices apps. They finally got it sorted out, behind the scenes.
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Can you provide a short recording demonstrating that?
I tried collecting some short clips but they seem to be 10-25 MB. If I make it small enough for an attachment here, will it be usable?
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Just upload a large file to any file sharing site and post a link here. Something like google drive etc.
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cATC4Fm-OAYPNCdY0M5fU9CQ47hu3vqI/view?usp=sharing
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Did anyone have a chance to look at the sample file I uploaded to GoogleDrive last week?
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I can reproduce the issue, and we're working on a fix. But it might be a few more days.
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Do you have an update on the status of this issue?
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Any update on the audio issues?
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An update on the fix for the audio issues would be greatly appreciated. All of my ATSC 3.0 recordings still have audio in the left channel only.
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Hendrik had looked into it and said it was a tough issue to fix. So I think the answer is "not yet".
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Is there/will there be support of Dolby AC-4 codec?
Thanks,
Osho
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Currently ATSC 3.0 tv channels that use AC-4 audio do work in MC30, but all the sound (wrongly) comes out of the left channel speaker, when it should be a 5.1 format (for example). It has been like this for months, and seems to be on the back burner, which is kinda sad. Seems like they don't realize how big this is, I think MC could get a lot of new customers if they could perfect this.
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Just as I posted a few days ago, Hendrik had looked into it but found no easy fix. We will continue working on it.
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I've made some progress for a build in the near future. Let us know how the experience is with that, I only have very short samples, as I don't have access to ATSC 3.0 myself.
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I've made some progress for a build in the near future. Let us know how the experience is with that, I only have very short samples, as I don't have access to ATSC 3.0 myself.
Maybe longer clips will help, so I'm posting 10 minute sample file links from each of my local stations.
Audio for all my ATSC 3.0 stations show up as "Multi In 5.1 PCM" on my AVR. For FOX CBS ABC, all the sound plays out of the LEFT FRONT speaker (at quite a low level), and absolutely nothing plays from the other speakers. But for NBC and (sister station) MyTv, it seems that just the Center Dialog comes from the SURR LEFT speaker (at a very high level), and I actually do get some surround effects from other speakers (at a low level), despite these two stations also showing up as "Multi In 5.1 PCM" on my AVR.
Media Info show the following for all stations:
Format : AC-4
Format/Info : Audio Coding 4
Commercial name : Dolby AC-4
Substream #1 : 5.1
Channel mode : 5.1
Channel layout : L R C LFE Ls Rs
EDIT: Video clip links removed
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Thanks for the clips.
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Thanks, those sound fine with the new version to me. Let us know if that matches your experience once build 64 is out.
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30.0.64 (2/17/2023)
1. Fixed: Various improvements to AC-4 audio decoding, including fixed channel mapping and improvements to audio timing to reduce glitches in playback.
Video is much smoother, almost no dropped frames. Unfortunately I am getting no sound (AVR shows Multi In 5.1 PCM but silence) for live tv and the recorded samples provided for stations NBC, ABC, CBS, MyTv.... Except for FOX, which has sound and seems like proper channel mapping ?
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One thing you might want to check is that Output Format is enabled and resampling to a reasonable rate. AC-4 has this peculiar thing that audio uses very obscure sample rates and you are supposed to resample it to a common rate as needed. But the decoder does not do that yet and would rely on Media Center to do that instead.
The easiest setting would be to set both 44.1 and 48k to resample to 44.1 and 48k respectively in output format. This wont cause resampling for any normal audio, but will resample the oddball AC-4 files.
I might look into doing that transparently.
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The easiest setting would be to set both 44.1 and 48k to resample to 44.1 and 48k respectively in output format.
That worked. Now have sound on all stations and seems like proper channel mapping. Thank you
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Thanks, those sound fine with the new version to me. Let us know if that matches your experience once build 64 is out.
When do you expect to release build 64?
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Build 65 was just posted at the top of this board.
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I just downloaded and installed MC30, build 59 is what came from the download page. My channel list is not showing the ATSC 3.0 channels. I even performed a channel rescan, but still not there. Is there a setting I've missed somewhere that enables the 3.0 channels? I do have one player that supports AC-4 audio (Roku Ultra 4800) so can help evaluate any audio issues.
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Use MC 30.0.65
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,135221.0.html
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Build 65 installed. Still not seeing the ATSC 3.0 channels in the All Programs channel list. Looking under Manage Channels doesn't show them either. I have 10 different 3.0 channels in the area that are available using the Silicon Dust app on my Roku and Shield.
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Build 65 installed. Still not seeing the ATSC 3.0 channels in the All Programs channel list. Looking under Manage Channels doesn't show them either. I have 10 different 3.0 channels in the area that are available using the Silicon Dust app on my Roku and Shield.
Only tuner #0 and #1 in the HDHR box are able to see the ATSC 3.0 stations. So in MC I created a new tuner profile with only those two tuners, and named it ATSC 3.0 then do a channel scan with that profile. You should see the ATSC 3.0 stations have a 1 added to the front. For example 3.1 ATSC 1.0 becomes 103.1 for ATSC 3.0, or 13.1 becomes 113.1 and so on. Once the ATSC 3.0 channels show up, you can copy/point the guide info from the ATSC 1.0 stations.
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Thanks for the suggestion. I tried to build a new profile but couldn't make one. I know I deselected the first two tuners from the existing profile, but once it was complete I found they were selected again. So I can't seem to be able to separate the two 3.0 tuners.
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Thanks for the suggestion. I tried to build a new profile but couldn't make one. I know I deselected the first two tuners from the existing profile, but once it was complete I found they were selected again. So I can't seem to be able to separate the two 3.0 tuners.
I have not gone as far as deleting any tuners from my primary OTA profile, because all tuners in the box can do ATSC 1.0 instead I just made a second, new profile just for ATSC 3.0
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Interesting summary of problems in four cities: Chicago, Miami, Austin, and West Palm Beach.
https://forum.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=388933#p388933
Not yet a success story.
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Thanks for the suggestion. I tried to build a new profile but couldn't make one. I know I deselected the first two tuners from the existing profile, but once it was complete I found they were selected again. So I can't seem to be able to separate the two 3.0 tuners.
You need to use DMS channels, instead of bda channels for ATSC 3.0. See tzr916's screenshot.
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Build 65 is a huge improvement. Thanks for all the effort.
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I have not gone as far as deleting any tuners from my primary OTA profile, because all tuners in the box can do ATSC 1.0 instead I just made a second, new profile just for ATSC 3.0
When I look at my tuner info, it doesn't say anything about DMS or BDA. Is there a setting on the tuner itself that isn't showing the hardware correctly in MC? Or is there a setting in MC that I missed when I upgraded to the HDHR Flex 4K as my tuner?
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TV Setup:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/TV_Setup
TV Tuners:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/TV_Tuners
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When I look at my tuner info, it doesn't say anything about DMS or BDA. Is there a setting on the tuner itself that isn't showing the hardware correctly in MC? Or is there a setting in MC that I missed when I upgraded to the HDHR Flex 4K as my tuner?
Sorry about the confusion. When we initially developed TV tuner support over 20 years ago, there were analog OTA and analog Cable channels. The tuners were Analog Tuners. Shortly after that we started having digital TV. These were supported on Windows only, using Microsoft bda architecture. These tuners are called "digital" tuners in MC. In MC setup, they are under "Antenna (over the air)" service type. ATSC devices are originally bda only. The DVB devices used in other countries are similar in that they are supported as bda devices.
Some of these tuners are network devices and support network protocols, giving us the ability to support them in Mac and Linux. These are under the service type of "Streaming (from a network tuner or from the Internet)". DMS stands for Digital Media Server, and is available with one of these network devices.
For ATSC 3.0, it appears that bda is just not updated to handle the new format. Thus we rely on devices such as HDHomeRun to do the tuning and we just get the stream from the device via DMS.
In television setup, choose "Streaming (from a network tuner or from the Internet)" for Service type, and choose "Tuner Stream" for Tuner type. Tuner Stream is just another way of saying "DMS". Sorry for all these confusing terms.
From there you should be able to complete the setup by following the wizard.
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Another thing that is important to mention:
DMS/Tuner Stream devices are network tuners, and requires enabling of Media Network feature of MC.
Tools/Options -> Media Network, check the checkbox "Use Media Network to share this library and enable DLNA". Under Advanced, make sure all three DLNA checkboxes are checked.
Once this is enabled, each time you start/restart MC, you need to wait a little bit for MC to discover all the network devices before you start running TV setup.
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OK, I've got it now. I was confused because my tuners were already visible on my network as DLNA sources, but MC wasn't configured correctly to use them. Thanks for the detailed info, I now have them available as both types. I've still a bit of config left to do, as it's now showing all ATSC 1.0 stations twice, but I can figure out the best way to work that out and not mess with any existing recording schedules.
Thanks to all!
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https://forum.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=77618
Looks like ATSC 3.0 may end up being crippled due to Encryption + DRM. Some stations in various cities are already employing this. Currently the HDHR hardware and native HDHomeRun App will not even lock signal on ATSC 3.0 stations that have it! With the latest firmware they will just display "Content protection required".
Silicondust states that they have the Encryption/DRM license and are working on a solution to actually play and record these channels within their native HDHomeRun App (windows10, android, roku, etc).
Unfortunately, just like cablecard Premium channels, no opensource app has ever achieved playback of DRM content. However, most opensource apps including JRiver can play cablecard Encrypted channels (without copy protection).
PLEASE look into getting JRiver licensed for ATSC 3.0 Encryption. If you don't, when the USA shuts off ATSC 1.0 everyone will be forced to use the HDHR App!
https://a3sa.com/licensing/
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One thing you might want to check is that Output Format is enabled and resampling to a reasonable rate. AC-4 has this peculiar thing that audio uses very obscure sample rates and you are supposed to resample it to a common rate as needed. But the decoder does not do that yet and would rely on Media Center to do that instead.
The easiest setting would be to set both 44.1 and 48k to resample to 44.1 and 48k respectively in output format. This wont cause resampling for any normal audio, but will resample the oddball AC-4 files.
I might look into doing that transparently.
30.0.66 (2/21/2023)
Changed: Audio with odd sample rates will be automatically resampled to a common rate.
This seems to have adversely affected bitstreaming (non-ATSC 3.0) tv channels/recorded shows my Denon! I get intermittent crazy loud "buzzing" noise. It's happened four times so far. It will usually go away if I press STOP, then Play again. I've set resampling back to NONE, to see if it goes away. Link for recording of the noise I get:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10VCeeJDAYQ-e1PLckplq_rvrztzuEZKA/view?usp=sharing
Almost all channels I looked at have 384kHz, there's one that has 448kHz but that is not in the MC re-sample list at all ?
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Bitstreaming completely bypasses any resampling logic. If your channels show weird sample rates, something else is up. Although those sounds more like values for the audio bitrate.
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Bitstreaming completely bypasses any resampling logic. If your channels show weird sample rates, something else is up. Although those sounds more like values for the audio bitrate.
Before today, I've never looked at bitrates. I only care about why I am getting a crazy loud buzz noise sometimes. It's NEVER happened before, years and years of bitstreaming through three different AVR's. Aside from turning bitstreaming off, what should I do about this?
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...Silicondust states that they have the Encryption/DRM license and are working on a solution to actually play and record these channels within their native HDHomeRun App (windows10, android, roku, etc).
PLEASE look into getting JRiver licensed for ATSC 3.0 Encryption. If you don't, when the USA shuts off ATSC 1.0 everyone will be forced to use the HDHR App!
https://a3sa.com/licensing/
https://forum.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=391619#p391619
Nickk @SiliconDust says:
"It should be possible for in-home third party apps to meet requirements similar to how our apps meet requirements. It requires work but we are happy to advise."
Looks like ATSC 3.0 encryption may be closer to CableCard than we first thought. It would be great if someone from JRiver staff could reach out to Nickk on this. The sooner the better!
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https://forum.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=77618
Looks like ATSC 3.0 may end up being crippled due to Encryption + DRM. Some stations in various cities are already employing this. Currently the HDHR hardware and native HDHomeRun App will not even lock signal on ATSC 3.0 stations that have it! With the latest firmware they will just display "Content protection required".
Silicondust states that they have the Encryption/DRM license and are working on a solution to actually play and record these channels within their native HDHomeRun App (windows10, android, roku, etc).
Unfortunately, just like cablecard Premium channels, no opensource app has ever achieved playback of DRM content. However, most opensource apps including JRiver can play cablecard Encrypted channels (without copy protection).
PLEASE look into getting JRiver licensed for ATSC 3.0 Encryption. If you don't, when the USA shuts off ATSC 1.0 everyone will be forced to use the HDHR App!
https://a3sa.com/licensing/
Hearst owned Sacramento NBC and MyTv ATSC 3.0 stations are now encrypted. Likely the others will follow suit. What is JRiver's plan?
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https://a3sa.com/licensees/
SiliconDust is officially on the list, and playing encrypted channels in their APPS will be working soon. Other stand-alone box manufacturers also on the list are Bitrouter (ZapperBox) and Nuvyyo (Tablo). So far I do not see any opensource windows apps like JRiver.
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SiliconDust is officially AS3A NextGen Certified for ATSC 3.0 They are now inches away from playback of encrypted channels on their HDHR App (various platforms), with recording encrypted channels coming.
Is JRiver looking into AS3A Certification at all? SiliconDust have stated:
it's hard to say what may or may not be available to third party apps. Once we've successfully gone through this ourselves, then we will be able to provide guidance to other developers, if there are options available, etc.
https://forum.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=393460#p393460
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I'm reminded of the record labels finally deciding MP3 was OK and they could maybe make money if they supported it.
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I just received this from our local public TV broadcaster, TPT. Minneapolis / St. Paul, Minnesota.
TPT is excited to upgrade our transmission signal to NEXTGEN TV on October 25! The changes are part of TPT’s digital transformation efforts, with the goal of better serving our community now and into the future.
NEXTGEN TV is the next evolution of broadcast technology. The technology improves the efficiency of broadcast and will provide a stronger signal to those at the edges of our coverage area. In the future, the technology will allow TPT to provide more personalized viewing experiences to viewers with smart TVs and serve as an essential resource for first responders during community emergencies.
TPT makes the transition on October 25, and viewers who use an antenna will need to rescan their television channels to continue to access TPT channels. Member Services will be available to assist those who need help with the rescanning process. You can contact us by email at memberservices@tpt.org or by phone from 9:00am-4:00pm Monday through Friday at 651-229-1300 or toll free at (866) 229-1300.
Learn more about TPTs transition to NEXTGEN TV.
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SliconDust apps still cannot play Encrypted ATSC 3.0 channels. Just wanted to post something they posted which I thought was hopeful in regards to possible third party adoption one day.
"...we had assumed the broadcasters weren't going to be using DRM until non-TV products had sorted things out, let alone pushing for DRM-by-default. They rushed it. We want to be public with how much the industry has screwed this up, but at the same time we have to be diplomatic. So I can say this much, but I can't give you the full vivid details of what I think about the broadcasters, Pearl, A3SA, etc, and what I would like to scream at them.
All that being said, it's still so much better than dealing with CableCARD DRM. It's still DRM, and DRM sucks, but it's at least a modern DRM approach that is meant to work on more devices, and shares a lot of DNA with streaming services, which have broad support..."
https://forum.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=396499#p396499
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Just for reference for other readers. ATSC is relevant for North America & Sth Korea broadcasting only. The stanard is not used and therefore not relevant if you are anywhere else in the world according to my reading is that right?
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At this time, ATSC 3.0 is used in the US, South Korea and Jamaica, and Brazil and Trinidad and Tobago expressed plans to adopt it in the future.
Many countries which did not use ATSC in the past will likely not swap to it, eg. Europe and Australia will likely continue using evolving versions of DVB instead.
Of course tighter DRM is going to arrive in all systems eventually.
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Wow, AS3A's drm has basically nailed the coffin shut for Windows ATSC 3.0
"Will DRM encrypted ATSC 3.0 channels play on my XBox or my Windows 10/11 system?
No. ATSC 3.0 uses Google Widevine DRM encryption which is a competitor to Microsoft PlayReady DRM encryption. This issue is not specific to the HDHomeRun product. A3SA is aware of the problem. There is no solution at this time. Any solution is outside our control and our guess is that a solution is unlikely anytime soon."
https://forum.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=78888