INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 31 for Windows => Topic started by: Manni on November 11, 2023, 09:27:54 am
-
With nVidia 3xxx and 4xxx series (I have a 3090 and have tested a 4060), you get a lot of frame drops (3-5 per minute) with JRiver using the default nvidia driver setting. This isn't set up specific, it's been documented by many users. It might have started with the 2xxx series. All I know is that it's not an issue with my 1080ti.
This can be resolved when using madVR by setting the number of frames presented in advance to 1-3 (1 in my case), in the rendering settings. Note that with madVR, the frame drops are not reported, yet very visible. This isn't possible with JRVR as there is no similar option.
AFAIK, the only way to resolve these frame drops with JRVR is to set vsync to on in the nVidia "manage 3D settings" control panel. So this is what I've been using until now, as it works with both renderers.
I still get at least one large drop out (1-3 seconds of video freeze and audio drop out, and 1-3 seconds of stutter while audio and video sync again). This is a separate issue, most likely caused by a recent windows 11 update, so I won't discuss this in this thread (but I'm happy to hear if you have any solution to it).
To go back to the frame drop issue, I've realised that the v-sync solution for JRVR only works when JRVR is tonemapping HDR content. If you send HDR passthrough, the frame drops come back. It's easy to reproduce. No frame drops when "use the display HDR capability" is unchecked and JRVR does the tonemapping, dozens of frame drops when it's checked and the display is tonemapping.
This isn't the case with madVR: there is no frame drop with the 3090 as long as v-sync is set to on or the presentation queue is reduced to 1, whether madVR does the tonemapping or whether it's set to HDR passthrough.
I've asked a few questions about this in the Atmos drop out thread, but I've decided to create a new thread as these frame drops are not Atmos related and my Atmos drop outs have been fixed by recent JRiver/LAV updates. Also, it's an issue that's definitely specific to JRVR, as it's not present with madVR.
Here are a few questions for Hendrik:
1) Is there another way, besides setting v-sync on, to get rid of the dropped frames with JRVR?
2) Could a setting reducing the presesentation queue be added (similar to what's available in madVR), so that we can see if it helps?
3) Could you fix the frame drops when using HDR passthrough with JRVR? Currently, there is no way that I know off to get around these, at least when bitstreaming.
This is with a 3090 (the frame drop wihout v-sync on issue was the same with the 4060 I tested recently), going through a Denon X8500HA AVR.
I'm currently not using FRL5 (60p is 8bits, 23p is 12bits) to try to be as closed to the 1080ti. So bandwidth is definitely not an issue. All my testing is done at 23p.
The chain is 3090 > X8500HA HDMI 2.1 input > JVC NZ8 (RS3100). I have a couple of HD Fury VRROOM in the chain, but the issue is present even when they are physically taken out of the chain and no other display is connected.
-
Anyone else can reproduce this issue?
Any chance to get a comment from Hendrik?
Thanks!
-
You can see my thread here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,137318.msg952512.html#msg952512 (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,137318.msg952512.html#msg952512)
It's not exactly the same issue (I'm not bitstreaming, for example), but I'm getting a lot of frame drops with my RTX 3060, though I get them with your settings (again, minus the bitstreaming) or my own, that is, with the TV doing the HDR tone mapping.
I went back to madvr last night and zero frame drops, repeats, or delays with a whole 4K disc, where I'd be getting 20-30 using JRVR, so something seems to be amiss with JRVR and some Nvidia cards.
My two cents.
-
You can see my thread here: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,137318.msg952512.html#msg952512 (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,137318.msg952512.html#msg952512)
It's not exactly the same issue (I'm not bitstreaming, for example), but I'm getting a lot of frame drops with my RTX 3060, though I get them with your settings (again, minus the bitstreaming) or my own, that is, with the TV doing the HDR tone mapping.
I went back to madvr last night and zero frame drops, repeats, or delays with a whole 4K disc, where I'd be getting 20-30 using JRVR, so something seems to be amiss with JRVR and some Nvidia cards.
My two cents.
Thanks. Note that I only have these frame drops if I use HDR passthrough with JRVR.
Also you need to set vsync on in the nVidia CP (and power to adaptive or max performance) with a 3xxx or a 4xxx series to limit the frame drops with JRVR. With madVR, you can shorten the presentation queue, but that's not an option in JRVR (as far as I know).
-
Yes, at the beginning of the thread I noted that Vsync is always set to "On" and power to "Prefer Maximum Performance" in the Nvidia Control Panel.
I tried HDR passthrough (my preference) and HDR tone mapping done by JRVR, and for me, both caused dropped and repeated frames, though maybe it was marginally better with the latter. What struck me, though, was that I get no dropped or repeated frames at all with madvr, with the presentation queue set to 1, as you suggested. That makes me think maybe there's something going on with JRVR with these RTX models (and maybe with certain set-ups), so that we need a similar setting in it as in madvr.
-
So FWIW, there is the config I have for two different nvidia driven setups. Neither exhibits these issues. Both have Vsync ON and Prefer Maxium performance. Both are running Windows 11 with all the latest updates.
3060 to Yami to JVC x7500 (aka Movie Night Machine)
- nvidia Driver : 531.79
- Audio : Bitstreaming
- HDR Settings : HDR to SDR with Target Peak Nits of 110 (my JVC has the "Magenta Bug" so I can't run it in HDR)
4090 to 2 x Philips 1000+ nit Displays one of which goes via a Pio AVR (aka Main / Video Editing PC)
- nvidia Driver : 535.98
- Audio : Decoding to 5.1
- Tonemapping : This one does use the "Use the display's HDR capability" (see attached for all the HDR settings)
Happy to test other setting combinations if it helos on the Main / Video editing PC (which seems the setup most similar to what Manni is trying to do).
-
Yes, at the beginning of the thread I noted that Vsync is always set to "On" and power to "Prefer Maximum Performance" in the Nvidia Control Panel.
I tried HDR passthrough (my preference) and HDR tone mapping done by JRVR, and for me, both caused dropped and repeated frames, though maybe it was marginally better with the latter. What struck me, though, was that I get no dropped or repeated frames at all with madvr, with the presentation queue set to 1, as you suggested. That makes me think maybe there's something going on with JRVR with these RTX models (and maybe with certain set-ups), so that we need a similar setting in it as in madvr.
Those 2 settings are not working for me. I was originally using the Nvidia defaults on my 1080 (not Ti) and I only experienced minor audio dropouts (no video messiness) about once every 3 or 4 films. When I adjusted Vsync to "on" and power to "maximum performance" i got 3 or 4 audio dropouts per movie. Moving back to the Nvidia defaults, the audio dropouts have gone away (for now).
Neither settings affected my frames dropped and frames repeated in any way that I could detect, with about 5 to 8 dropped and 3 oto 5 repeated per film, and do not affect the visual experience at all.
With madVR beta 113 I have no idea of the number of dropped/repeated frames, but it acts EXACTLY the same as JRVR in terms of audio dropouts in relation to Nvidia control panel settings.
Please note that I am using HDR to SDR mapping with both madVR and JRVR, if that has any effect on this.
After stripping my home theater hardware down to the very minimum by removing and and all HDMI splitters and keeping the path as direct as possible, I found NO EFFECT what-so-ever on dropouts, either good or bad.
I am running Windows 10 with Defender completely disabled and basically no other software installed on the HTPC...truly a dedicated PC. My conclusion at this point is that this is a Windows issue, as my other devices (ROKU, ATV4K+, Zidoo Z9X, Vero 4K+, and Sony X800) have never dropped audio even once...all devices bitstreaming, as well as PC bitstreaming. As things stand, the audio dropouts are not a deal breaker and are just a very minor annoyance, but I can understand how Manni and timwtheov are much more concerned about their problems. I was going to buy a 4070Ti for my HTPC, but I think I will save my money and stick with the 1080 for now.
- HDR Settings : HDR to SDR with Target Peak Nits of 110 (my JVC has the "Magenta Bug" so I can't run it in HDR)
I have the "cyan bug" with my Epson LS12000, so I run HDR to SDR mapping for the same reason as you.
-
So FWIW, there is the config I have for two different nvidia driven setups. Neither exhibits these issues. Both have Vsync ON and Prefer Maxium performance. Both are running Windows 11 with all the latest updates.
3060 to Yami to JVC x7500 (aka Movie Night Machine)
- nvidia Driver : 531.79
- Audio : Bitstreaming
- HDR Settings : HDR to SDR with Target Peak Nits of 110 (my JVC has the "Magenta Bug" so I can't run it in HDR)
4090 to 2 x Philips 1000+ nit Displays one of which goes via a Pio AVR (aka Main / Video Editing PC)
- nvidia Driver : 535.98
- Audio : Decoding to 5.1
- Tonemapping : This one does use the "Use the display's HDR capability" (see attached for all the HDR settings)
Happy to test other setting combinations if it helos on the Main / Video editing PC (which seems the setup most similar to what Manni is trying to do).
Can you try to set the 3060 to HDR passthrough and see if you get frame drops?
I've confirmed today that I don't have the issue with the 1080ti. I only drop frames with JRVR in HDR passthrough with the 3090, despite vsync on and power on max performance.
I have too many issues with the 3090 in the AMD 5950X HTPC re video playback, I've put the 1080ti back in and the 3090 is going (again) in the EGPU for the Dell XPS 17.
-
@jmone
I'm curious about the older driver you have for the 3060, the same card I have: is that one more stable? I usually update to the most recent Nvidia driver when they come out via the Nvidia website. Maybe that's a mistake?
-
Can you try to set the 3060 to HDR passthrough and see if you get frame drops?
No problems at my end (well the image that was displayed was all Magenta due to the JVC Bug - kinda worked with Barbie). Here is a Screen shot after 10min of playback (reset after the initial startup drops / repeats).
-
@jmone
I'm curious about the older driver you have for the 3060, the same card I have: is that one more stable? I usually update to the most recent Nvidia driver when they come out via the Nvidia website. Maybe that's a mistake?
No idea, it was the one I installed at the time I swapped in the 3060 (from a 1660Ti that did not do AV1 decoding). Don't think I've updated it since as I have no issues.
-
@jmone
Well, I may as well try it out and see what happens.
-
Looks like the most recent Nvidia drivers were the problem for me with JRVR in HDR passthrough and with Vsync on and "Prefer Maximum Performance" enabled, plus all the other high-end settings I've had checked in JRVR.
I downloaded and installed the 531.79 driver jmone had installed, rebooted, and then watched 1 and 1/2 Game of Thrones 4K mkv episodes (about an hour and 20 minutes' worth), plus 10-15 minutes of a 1080p mkv (upscaled to 4K) and had ZERO dropped or repeated frames. Prior, I was getting about a dropped or repeated frame every couple of minutes, sometimes even more.
I'm very happy, as I didn't want to have to go back to madvr (love the picture with JRVR in passthrough mode). ;)
-
Good news! Lets see how Manni goes.
-
1) Is there another way, besides setting v-sync on, to get rid of the dropped frames with JRVR?
2) Could a setting reducing the presesentation queue be added (similar to what's available in madVR), so that we can see if it helps?
3) Could you fix the frame drops when using HDR passthrough with JRVR? Currently, there is no way that I know off to get around these, at least when bitstreaming.
JRVR does not work like madVR, so asking for the same settings does not make sense. There is no presentation queue like that in JRVR.
What you are experiencing are quirks of power management of the GPU and the driver, not behavior in JRVR.
There are some plans to change the presentation behavior, but thats for the future and unknown if it will improve anything for this particular case. People have been fighting this for years with madVR and suggesting different settings (which change every couple months), there is no magic solution.
-
JRVR does not work like madVR, so asking for the same settings does not make sense. There is no presentation queue like that in JRVR.
What you are experiencing are quirks of power management of the GPU and the driver, not behavior in JRVR.
There are some plans to change the presentation behavior, but thats for the future and unknown if it will improve anything for this particular case. People have been fighting this for years with madVR and suggesting different settings (which change every couple months), there is no magic solution.
Thanks, I wasn't asking for the same settings as madVR, only asking how to fix this issue with JRVR. This isn't a power/driver issue, as there is no such issue with madVR.
Using an old driver might be a workaround with a dedicated HTPC, it's not a solution for someone who is also gaming or video editing.
So let's leave madVR aside (apart from the fact that it doesn't have that issue with the right settings), my comments/question remains:
1) JRVR drops frames with a 3xxx or 4xxx if you don't use vsync
2) Using vsync, there is no dropped frames when JRVR does the tonemapping
3) If you enable HDR passtthrough in JRVR, it then drops frames again.
How do you resolve the frame dropping with JRVR with HDR passthrough, apart from possibly using an old driver that's going to cause other issues and will stop working at some point unless you freeze the HTPC in time (incuding JRiver updates)?
The big advantage of JRVR over madVR is that there is official support.
If there is no support, then it's just as well to live with madVR and its unsupported issues (they have workarounds too, and many disappear in HDR passthrough).
-
Looks like the most recent Nvidia drivers were the problem for me with JRVR in HDR passthrough and with Vsync on and "Prefer Maximum Performance" enabled, plus all the other high-end settings I've had checked in JRVR.
I downloaded and installed the 531.79 driver jmone had installed, rebooted, and then watched 1 and 1/2 Game of Thrones 4K mkv episodes (about an hour and 20 minutes' worth), plus 10-15 minutes of a 1080p mkv (upscaled to 4K) and had ZERO dropped or repeated frames. Prior, I was getting about a dropped or repeated frame every couple of minutes, sometimes even more.
I'm very happy, as I didn't want to have to go back to madvr (love the picture with JRVR in passthrough mode). ;)
FYI, JRVR or madVR should produce exactly the same picture when enabling HDR passthrough in either renderer (unless you ask for some tonemapping to be done and sent as HDR). In that case, it's your display that's doing the tonemapping, not JRVR or madVR. The only other differences with HDR content are things like chroma upscaling or sharpening, which are likely to be minor with HDR content.
-
This isn't a power/driver issue, as there is no such issue with madVR.
This is not a valid conclusion. Neither you, nor I, have any insight in how the hardware or the driver works. Hence, there is no insight how it reacts when presented with a certain workload to process.
You would expect it to just do the work asked of it, but that is not the case, because it often favors saving power over being 100% reliable. This is a well known and documented fact, with dozens of different attempted work-arounds in myriads of different applications and scenarios.
Having to find some magical right settings on some arbitrary numbers in madVR is quite clear proof of this, because for some reason this particular combination gives it just the right amount of data to not choke. But from reliable hardware/drivers you would not expect to need to do that. If I can ask it to render 8 frames in advance, it should not suddenly start acting more stupid then if I request 4 frames.
If there is no support
I'm not sure what you expect "support" to be. Don't you think if there was a simple switch in the code called "fix problem" we would just flip it?
We can look at the issues, and try to investigate as best as we can given constraints from not having everyone's personal setup at hand to reproduce every single issue exactly. But at the end of the day, hardware/driver issues are just that and will always exist. Hardware doesn't come with a developer manual to tell you what to do, unfortunately. All you get is Direct3D and its documentation, and you follow it to the best of your abilities .. and then hardware does what it does anyway.
-
This is not a valid conclusion. Neither you, nor I, have any insight in how the hardware or the driver works. Hence, there is no insight how it reacts when presented with a certain workload to process.
You would expect it to just do the work asked of it, but that is not the case, because it often favors saving power over being 100% reliable. This is a well known and documented fact, with dozens of different attempted work-arounds in myriads of different applications and scenarios.
Having to find some magical right settings on some arbitrary numbers in madVR is quite clear proof of this, because for some reason this particular combination gives it just the right amount of data to not choke. But from reliable hardware/drivers you would not expect to need to do that. If I can ask it to render 8 frames in advance, it should not suddenly start acting more stupid then if I request 4 frames.
I'm not sure what you expect "support" to be. Don't you think if there was a simple switch in the code called "fix problem" we would just flip it?
We can look at the issues, and try to investigate as best as we can given constraints from not having everyone's personal setup at hand to reproduce every single issue exactly. But at the end of the day, hardware/driver issues are just that and will always exist. Hardware doesn't come with a developer manual to tell you what to do, unfortunately. All you get is Direct3D and its documentation, and you follow it to the best of your abilities .. and then hardware does what it does anyway.
When an issue is specific to a single software, I expect that software developer to fix it, like you've done with the Atmos drop out issue, which is now fixed for me following the recent changes you've made to JRiver and LAV (thanks again!).
I still have a large drop out issue which isn't specific to JRiver, so I'm not expecting you to fix it, as it would be unfair, and I've said so in the relevant thread. I have posted about this as I'm still trying to resolve this, but not here as it's not a JRiver-specific issue.
Again, it's not possible to report an issue to nVidia if there is only one software (JRVR) that has it. I'll test with MPC-VR (if it allows HDR passthrough) and other renderers and will report back.
If the issue is specific, I would expect a developer to first try to reproduce the issue with their own hardware, and if they can (I suspect you will with your 4xxx), then see how they can fix it.
We can't live stuck in time with old drivers if JRVR is incompatible with recent drivers.
-
Good news! Lets see how Manni goes.
Just to confirm that reverting to studio 531.61 (the latest studio version before 531.79) does resolve the issue, so thanks for the workaround. It does indeed need both vsync on and prefer max performance set to not drop frames with JRVR, both when tonemapping and when using passthrough, as previously. Thanks for the workaround!
Please could you elaborate on the reasons why you stick with this old driver with the 3xxx?
I'm going to see if it also resolves the large dropout I still have after 1-2 hours of bitstreaming (which is not specific to JRiver) which I experience both with the 1080ti and the 3090.
I'm using the 3090 in HDMI 2.0 mode (4K60 EDID B in my JVC NZ8 and 2.0 input in my Denon X8500 AVR) as it resolves a lot of other issues, especially with madVR (black screen, wrong SDR mode, shortcuts not working, etc).
-
We can't live stuck in time with old drivers if JRVR is incompatible with recent drivers.
We investigate when possible, but sometimes an older driver is clearly the solution. This is well known.
We have limited time to waste on broken drivers. Eventually, they sometimes get fixed.
-
We investigate when possible, but sometimes an older driver is clearly the solution. This is well known.
We have limited time to waste on broken drivers. Eventually, they sometimes get fixed.
This might be the case and I understand, but at least you could reproduce the issue and report it to nVidia, especially when the issue is specific to JRiver/JRVR. This would have a lot more weight than a few reports by a handful of users.
-
I think the reverse is true. Users probably have more impact.
-
I think the reverse is true. Users probably have more impact.
That's debatable, but it depends on your relationship with the developers. Madshi managed to get many things done or fixed with nVidia over the years, for example the wrong refresh rate at 23.976hz. But he has a good contact there.
Anyway, let's look further into this old driver and let's forget for now how to fix JRVR regarding this issue.
First of all, as I said, you can get compatibility issues or warnings with some games using old drivers. For example, I attach a screnshot of what MS Flight Simulator displays at launch with such an old driver. It doesn't mean there are necessary issues (I haven't checked with MS FS), just that it can break compatibility with some games.
I think what might be happening with the 3090 is simply that after a while, new drivers only improve things for the current gen (4xxx currently) and can break or make things worse for older gens (3xxx). Some software resist better than others. I have other issues with the 3090, so I looked if this old driver helped in any way. Here are my findings about Studio 531.61:
1) It resolves the issue when an HDMI 2.1 GPU is connected to an HDMI 2.0 input of an AVR. Recent drivers (535.98 and newer) produce a black screen when trying to use anything above 8 bits at 4K23p. No such issue with 531.61, 10 and 12bits at 4K23 work fine. This is great because it means I can use my Sony HDMI headphones on HDMI Zone 2 without the need for another HD Fury VRROOM in the chain between the HTPC and the AVR to split the audio.
2) As we know, it fixes the frame drops when using HDR passthrough with JRVR.
2) Unfortunately, it doesn't help with my large video/audio drop out when bitstreaming, usually after 1-2 hours. I'm still working on that, but as it's not JRiver-specific I don't do it in these forums.
I tried 535.98, the first studio version after the version recommended by MS FS, and it doesn't help with 1 or 2 or makes any change re 3).
I tried to go up from 531.61, and the only game ready driver version I had archived that was of interest (older than 535.98 and more recent than 531.79) was 532.03, and it has the same benefits as 531.61, it fixes 1) and 2).
It would be good to know if there was any other reason why @Jmone stayed with 531.79 rather than moving up to 532.03.
There is a big difference in size between 532.03 and 535.98, so it's clearly a different architecture. It's probably that change of architecture that broke something with the 3xxx series.
If anyone knows of a DCH version between 532.03 and 535.98 that is closer in size to 875MB (532 branch and older) rather than 670MB (535 branch and more recent), I'd be happy to try it if there is a safe place to get it. Unfortunately, nVidia archives don't go beyond 535.98 and I only archive the studio versions I download, along with the odd game ready version, such as 532.03 that I had by chance.
I'm going to stay with this driver version for now, as it makes it possible to use HDR passthrough with JRiver on the 3090 and resolves the 10/12bits issue when using an HDMI 2.0 input on the AVR.
If I ever get my HTPC to work properly with the 3090, I'll create a thread with suggestions to help others, because frankly what I've been through over the last few months hasn't been a nice experience.
My 1080ti isn't an option anymore now that the Atmos drop outs are resolved (it was immune to them), as these large drop outs I started get once or twice per film (not JRiver related, I also get them with MPC-BE) also happen with the 1080ti.
So for now, the 3090 is staying in the HTPC, using an HDMI 2.0 input in the AVR. I lose 4K120, but I still keep the GPU power and the more recent hardware acceleration. I hope I'll be able to resolve this last issue with my large A/V dropouts, and that 531.61 or 532.03 are not going to stop working with a Windows update of some sort.
I'm on 23H2 and I'm probably going to stop updating the OS for large updates, as any major OS update could break compatibility with the driver. Unfortunately, the large audio drop outs I experience might have been caused by a windows 11 update last August, so my only option to stop them might be to update the OS at some point... What a rabbit hole!
-
Just to confirm that reverting to studio 531.61 (the latest studio version before 531.79) does resolve the issue, so thanks for the workaround. It does indeed need both vsync on and prefer max performance set to not drop frames with JRVR, both when tonemapping and when using passthrough, as previously. Thanks for the workaround!
No probs
Please could you elaborate on the reasons why you stick with this old driver with the 3xxx?
There is a long history of drivers breaking something for HTPC playback. I used to even keep an eye on a fourm thread that listed all the nvidia / amd / intel drivers versions and any HTPC issues (was it AVS?). Once dropped/repeated frames on 23.976hz went from 11sec --> 15min --> 50ish min I sort of lost interest as it was now good enough.
The 3060 runs on a dedicated HTPC. It was an upgrade from my trusty 1660ti to get AV1 decoding and I guess 531.79 from 2 May 2023 was the latest at that time. I do spend a bunch of time and effort during such upgrades to test, recheck settings etc and as it all just worked.... it does not cross my mind to even think about the driver again (well... till something changes or stops working).
The 4090 runs on my daily driver (that I also use for Video Editing), and on that I do upgrade the drivers more regularly as there is normally some post over on the Davinci Resolve forum about some issue that is addressed every now and then. This one is running 535.98 from 30 May 2023. A bit more current but still not the latest, as again - everything is working fine on this driver.
I can upgrade to the later/latest driver if you want me to test.
-
Thanks for the details. That thread was (and still is) on Doom9, not AVS :) I plan to post there to report the recent findings, I know others have the issue I experience when using an HDMI 2.0 input with a 2.1 GPU and it’s good to know the workaround.
I don’t think there is a need for you to update to 532.03 unless you’d like to have a slightly more recent driver than 531.79. 535.98 and above will break things, so no need to test that.
One question though, as you don’t seem to experience the large drop out with the 3060, what’s your OS version and build number? That issue might be caused by a recent win 11 update, so you might want to make sure that you don’t install it if you’re on win 11.
I might have to install windows 10 if I can’t get rid of it on win 11. It looks like an HTPC still has to be dedicated and frozen in time once you get it to work…
By the way, I checked and it doesn't look like there is any version between 532.03 and 535.98, so 532.03 is likeky the last working version for a 3xxx series.
-
HTPC with 3060 running 531.79
Edition Windows 11 Pro
Version 22H2
Installed on 13/02/2023
OS build 22621.2506
Experience Windows Feature Experience Pack 1000.22677.1000.0
Main PC with 4090 running 535.98
Edition Windows 11 Pro for Workstations
Version 22H2
Installed on 12/02/2023
OS build 22621.2428
Experience Windows Feature Experience Pack 1000.22674.1000.0
-
I take the OS updates that Windows pushes out (though I have dropped out of the Insiders Preview ring as it did cause issues).
-
That's great, thanks for the info. I'm already on 23H2 so there is no way back, but I already had the isue with 22H2.
I'll keep working on it, thanks again for your help.
-
No probs - Do you still have issues with the 4XXX cards?
-
No probs - Do you still have issues with the 4XXX cards?
I only tested a 4060 briefly and it didn’t help, so I sent it back. I only have the 3090 in the HTPC, and an internal 3060 in the laptop (Dell XPS 17) with the 1080ti in the EGPU, but I don’t use the laptop for serious video playback.
-
I'm using the nVidia Game Ready Drivers v537.42 on a 3090.
I don't see any frame drops with HDR Passthru in JRVR, but I set my refresh rate to 120 (which looks beautiful) as dynamic switching to e.g. 23hz causes other weird artifacts on my OLED (have no idea to be honest where in the chain it is a problem - but it is quite jarring to see the screen tearing on some scenes. got tired of triaging it).
120hz looks excellent to these eyes. One thing I do need to ensure is I turn off GSync, which I only use when playing video games (my HTPC is also my gaming rig). GSync on causes other artifacts and also disables a lot of controls on the LG OLED.
-
If you have an LG OLED, 119 - 120hz is the right choice for 23 and 24 fps content IMO.
I actually keep G-Sync enabled without issue. 3090ti here.
What artifacts are we talking about?
-
If you have an LG OLED, 119 - 120hz is the right choice for 23 and 24 fps content IMO.
I actually keep G-Sync enabled without issue. 3090ti here.
What artifacts are we talking about?
Perhaps it was an older driver or in all the testing I was doing then, I lost track of what was configured and assumed G-Sync was enabled- i just tried it w/G-Sync and did not see it where I typically did in the past on specific videos so I'll chalk this up to pilot error. the only reason then that I keep it off is to enable some features of the set that would be disabled otherwise. It's easy enough to toggle it.
Agree with you re: 120hz - a stunning picture using JRVR with SDR and HDR content.
-
I tried this out now...using Jrvr and setting display setting to 120 hz on 23 and 24 p content in display settings. I then loaded in performances setting in jrvr...to get the best performance. on my lg oled, I turned off interpolation and only setting motion pro(BFI) to medium.
Most of the time things look good motionwise most of the time. but there are stutter in some motion. But that could be what You refer to inherent sutter in lowframe content. Like in Alien opening scene "white room scene". When there is panning involved there is a lot of judder or shivering.
Like at the end of the scene when Fassbender just finished pouring tee to Guy Pearce and right afterwards the camera is panning upwards to Fassbenders body/face...there is a lot of judder( the picture becomes unclear and shivering motion).
Is this what You experience too? This is especially visable in such bright scenes...a lot of other motion is good.
nvidia panel vsync is set to on and power is set to performance and monitor technology is set to chosen hz(disableing gsync).
nvidia driver is jmones 531.79. and the latest build ...84 JRiver.
-
Try two things separately:
1: Turn off G-Sync (or confirm it is off)
2: With G-Sync off you can set the smooth motion setting to Low/Medium. It will NOT make it look like the dreaded "soap-opera" effect, but will smooth out panning in my experience with little other effect and no artifacts. Note this is on the TV itself.
--
Keeping to the thread topic: with what you did, I assume you are seeing no frame drops per original poster?
-
I think this alien covenant movie scene makes is more visable because of the bright scene, but panning are not smooth on my tv. I set bfi at medium and smoothing at 6, There are still very noticable shivering still. smoothing does not seem to work on 120hz on my tv.
I turned off game optimizer completly off, so it does not even appear on nvidia control panel. And I use sdr and not hdr modus.
Yes, there are no framedrops or repeated frames..only initially..which is normal.
-
I'm using the nVidia Game Ready Drivers v537.42 on a 3090.
I don't see any frame drops with HDR Passthru in JRVR, but I set my refresh rate to 120 (which looks beautiful) as dynamic switching to e.g. 23hz causes other weird artifacts on my OLED (have no idea to be honest where in the chain it is a problem - but it is quite jarring to see the screen tearing on some scenes. got tired of triaging it).
120hz looks excellent to these eyes. One thing I do need to ensure is I turn off GSync, which I only use when playing video games (my HTPC is also my gaming rig). GSync on causes other artifacts and also disables a lot of controls on the LG OLED.
You can turn off g-sync for specific applications and leave it on globally using the profiles in nvcp. The issue I've seen with g-sync enabled is that when the media player goes in fullscreen performance can tank because the renderer gets confused with the fluctuating refresh rate. And yes my LG OLED is always in 120hz mode.
Other than that I always have v-sync+g-sync on globally, and I don't use prefer maximum performance, at least with a 4090 it does not seem needed at all, and that way I'm saving on a lot of power (and noise). My card runs with low clocks and is almost always fanless during video playback, but there is no performance issue and it's all smooth (as it should).
I have seen the OP's issue sometimes but it was always fixed by rebooting or switching back and forth between HDR and SDR in Windows (11). I almost never use the "latest" drivers though, I stay 1-2 version behind unless there is some urgent fix or I need them to play a freshly released game.
-
You can turn off g-sync for specific applications and leave it on globally using the profiles in nvcp.
I'm looking at the nvcp in the 3D program settings and it's showing that the g-sync (monitor technology) option is "not supported for this application" under jriver. Am I looking in the wrong place to shut off g-sync for this specific application? Thanks for the help.
-
If it says unsupported that means it's forced off which is what you want. However it seems that Nvidia is not keeping up with the JRiver updates (it doesn't know about Media Center 31.exe yet I believe), so in that case you can try creating a new profile for it, or you can (my preferred method) use nvidia profile inspector (https://github.com/Orbmu2k/nvidiaProfileInspector/releases) and simply add the new JRiver executable (or any application really) to an already existing profile that has the g-sync off/unsupported flag.
There is a "media player classic" profile in the drivers and for my part I simply add to it any application for which I don't want g-sync to trigger.
I can show you some screenshots later if that helps.
-
MC should setup a nvidia profile to disable GSYNC once you play video for the first time.
-
Interesting, I don't think it did for me but I do those things out of habit so perhaps I did it before MC could do it. Will keep an eye on it next time I update nvidia and reset the settings.
-
MC should setup a nvidia profile to disable GSYNC once you play video for the first time.
Ok, thanks guys... it sounds like that is probably what happened so I'll assume mine is disabled properly.
-
MC should setup a nvidia profile to disable GSYNC once you play video for the first time.
Can this be optional? I don't have an issue with G-Sync and I'd like to keep it active while MC is playing content.
-
Can this be optional? I don't have an issue with G-Sync and I'd like to keep it active while MC is playing content.
It has been doing this for years, if you never noticed any problems, just continue to not notice any problems. :)
-
I started noticing issues the last few months, same as manni (NVIDIA 4090). I was using old drivers (2022) for quite a while until new games dropped. I tried everything mentioned here, and it seems reverting to the 8 month old 531.79 driver is the only thing that stops the random 7 to 20 frame drops/repeats in a movie, usually within an hour of playtime. Using JRVR, any version of LAV filters. Tested using multiple versions of jriver (30.0.0.41 up until 31.0.84).
My setup is a bit different - my receiver cannot handle HDMI 2.1. So I have the 4090's HDMI 2.1 port attached to the HDMI 2.1 input on the 4K TV. This allows me to have 4K120hz for better framerate (24/30/23/29/59) matching, while the audio from another port goes to the receiver.
MadVR seems to have no issues or imperceptible framedrops. I run at 119 or 120 hz on my display, so one single framedrop is not noticeable. However, 7 to 20 drops/repeats in a row lasts half a second to one second - extremely noticeable and jarring.
Interestingly, this is most noticeable for high-bitrate content (Blu-ray and UltraHD Blu-ray with menus and remuxes in MKV), but no problems for lower bitrate stuff (under 20 megabits/sec, DolbyVision or HDR10).
Things I tried that made no difference:
- subtitles on or off
- vsync on/off in NVCP
- Prefer maximum performance in NVCP, on or off
- disable interrupt moderation on my NIC (10 gigabit file share from my NAS)
- Process Lasso CPU affinities, real-time or high process priorities
- GPU VRAM higher idle clocks (using gfrad utility to clock VRAM to 500 Mhz instead of 50 Mhz - this greatly improves DPC latency)
- Upgrade to Windows 11 23H2 from Windows 10 21H2
- increase LAV Splitter Maximum Queue Size and Maximum Packets to 1024 MB and 65535 packets, respectively
- WASAPI mode audio in JRiver
- clean install of jriver including wiping out leftover jriver configuration items (this fixed issues with audio device detection problems that I encountered while testing)
- various audio device settings - Stereo, 7.1, Dolby Atmos for Home Theater, 48Khz, 96Khz, 192Khz and so on
- custom video config using 76.1 LAV Filter and 78.0 LAV Filter
- HDR tone mapping on or off (HDR passthrough always enabled though)
- disable and enable Windows' Game Mode (Windows can detect if a game is running and add performance optimizations for them)
- Configure the NAS to never spin down the hard drives on idle - was thinking maybe a different drive spinning down interrupts the SATA/SAS drive transfers while streaming - but this made no difference
- killing extra processes like browers, superfluous USB devices
- different RAM timings (AMD AM5 CPUs and motherboards are infamous for RAM instability unless you endlessly tweak the RAM timings and BIOS settings for days), although I also noticed the same stutter issues on my old PC with i7-9700K + Z390 motherboard with NVIDIA 536.99 drivers.
- NVIDIA drivers 536.99, 537.34, 537.58 (these ones allegedly fix a DPC latency issue too, but I was not able to prove it using LatencyMon.exe)
I'll do more testing with 531.79. Boy, this will be a pain in the butt though, as I also game on this machine with the same home theater setup, and having the latest driver is often a *must have* to prevent game CTDs. Maybe I can try only using MadVR for remuxes/BDMVs, and JRVR for the dolbyvision lower-bitrate stuff. Although I haven't yet tested dropouts in JRiver/MadVR yet. I know that MPC-HC/MadVR has 0 dropouts/repeats regardless of driver version.
Things I haven't tried yet (this will take many more hours of testing):
- disable hardware accelerated GPU scheduling in Windows 10/11
- figure out if it is possible to install older NVIDIA High Definition Audio drivers - perhaps this could make a difference too?
Speculation: NVIDIA may have changed something with regards to GPU scheduling? Or maybe driver broke handling of queues (buffers not being released? memory leak?)? MadVR seems to have few issues but I understand that madshi must have spent a few years ensuring that driver bugs can be overcome with the queue system he created. I remember those years living with dropped/repeated frames - those were dark times. :)
-
@rpro
For what it's worth, I had no dropped or repeated frames with the most recent Nvidia drivers using madvr but had the same problems you describe with JRVR and the most recent Nvidia drivers. Luckily, I don't play video games, so an older driver is fine by me, for now, though I do worry about the HTPC being in a "frozen" state regarding driver updates as Manni noted above.
Hopefully a solution can be found at one end (MC) or the other (Nvidia).
-
@rpro
For what it's worth, I had no dropped or repeated frames with the most recent Nvidia drivers using madvr but had the same problems you describe with JRVR and the most recent Nvidia drivers. Luckily, I don't play video games, so an older driver is fine by me, for now, though I do worry about the HTPC being in a "frozen" state regarding driver updates as Manni noted above.
Hopefully a solution can be found at one end (MC) or the other (Nvidia).
This issue is only with JRVR and only when using HDR passthrough. If you let JRVR to do the tonemapping, or you use madVR, this specific issue goes away. I had another issue, not specific to madVR, of a large audio/video drop that was likely caused by a windows 11 update in August and was resolved by another one this month.
I have perfect playback now with these older drivers, both when tonemapping and in HDR passthrough, just one frame dropped per hour when bitstreaming, as expected.
There is another bug that leads to Atmos dropouts when bitstreaming, but it has been resolved by Hendrik in recent MC31 versions (both the core and the latest LAV version).
So along with the settings in the nVidia cPanel (and in madVR), quite a few reasons to get drops and glitches, but as long as old drivers are used, not an issue for perfect playback with HDR passthrough and JRVR. These old drivers are an issue for gaming, and any windows update could break compatibility with them, but my HTPC is video first, gaming and editing second, so I’m happy to live with this compromise for as long as they work if by then JRVR doesn’t offer ways around this issue with new drivers, like madVR does.
Hendrik has said that he was thinking of implementing ways to control the presentation queue in JRVR. Hopefully he’ll deliver that and it will help with this issue before these drivers break.
-
Cool Manni - your investigation, along with others, was very helpful.
Sadly, I did get a big dropout when I decided to watch a movie (BDMV) on the 4K TV (2160p119 with 10 bit RGB, LG CX OLED TV). 20 dropped frames. I did make two changes: I turned off Hardware-Accelerated GPU Scheduling, and turned on Auto HDR (which also turns on Optimizations for Windowed Games). I'll revert and test with another movie soon. I am using the 531.79 driver.
I also realized that on this 4K display, I did not have tonemapping enabled when the dropout occurred too.
I was previously testing, overnight (and analyzing the JRVR log file), on my 2560x1440p HDR monitor at 120 hz (it's a cheap gaming monitor).
The number of permutations is maddening!
-
So what is strange is I get far less (or no) dropouts/repeats if I play back a full length movie on my DisplayPort 2560x1440p monitor (120hz with HDR and 10 bit color).
With JRVR, win11, NVIDIA 531.79, WASAPI, audio device in Windows set to 7.1, 24 bit 192KHz.
On my 4K TV, I usually get a massive drop/repeat bomb with audio stutter that lasts about 1 second, usually within an hour. 3840x2160p@120hz. I don't know why.
Just a reminder: I have all 4 ports of the 4090 used up. 1x DP (using HDMI adapter) to the receiver for the audio (this means Windows has it active as a monitor). 1xDP on the gaming monitor - which is "disabled" in Windows when the OLED TV turns on. 1xDP to a secondary monitor (also disabled in Windows), and 1xHDMI to my 4K OLED TV. This works fine using MPC-HC with MadVR (I haven't done a full test using MadVR in JRiver yet)
Some things I am trying:
- disabling the Windows 11 Widgets.exe (can disable Widgets in Taskbar Settings).
- since i game a fair bit, and also use foobar2000 to play audio, I use this application called Gfrad (can be found on guru3D, or you can google it) with its bundled NVIDIA Power Management app. With that utility, I can force a minimum and maximum GPU clock on the 4090, as well as an upper power limit. I set it to 300 watts, mininum clock of 1200 Mhz and maximum clock of 1200 MHz. This is finer control than using the NVIDIA Control Panel to set "Maximum Performance". Caveat: the user interface of this utility is horrible, but I did manage to force these settings only when Media Center 31.exe is running. I hope this will stop the NVIDIA driver from fiddling with the GPU clocks during playback.
I use the GPU-Z app to verify that the GPU clocks are set correctly - they stay at 1200 Mhz.
With the above I will do a test run on my gaming monitor (I don't want to wear out my OLED TV), this time using the HDMI input into the display (1440p119.8hz). I'll play a movie overnight and look at the JRVR csv file in the morning to see if any frames got dropped/repeated. It will probably be okay since it is only 2560x1440p, but I'll use the results as a baseline. Too bad I don't have a 4K monitor to test with.
-
No framedrops while playing the 2.5 hour movie overnight (1440p119hz over HDMI to gaming monitor, audio sent over another HDMI port (1080p60) to AVR separately). With GPU clocks min/max fixed etc as I described above. Next step is to test a 2+ hour 4K movie on the TV at 2160p119.
-
I'll play a movie overnight and look at the JRVR csv file in the morning to see if any frames got dropped/repeated.
I have noticed (and reported to Hendrik via beta team) that enabling JRVR Option>Advanced>Debugging>Log Frame Timing can actually cause frame drops.
I would strongly suggest that you disable that option if you are chasing frame drops and rely on the OSD.
-
Okay, noted!
-
Not convinced that clocks and power savings have anything to do with it. I have let nvidia manage clocks automatically for a long time now, and it was never the cause of the video playback glitches. Cards like the 3090 or 4090 just have so much power than even with their 2D clocks video playback is a trivial task unless running very heavy upscaling/processing.
In my experience nvidia has been tuning the clocks extremely well for the last 2 gens at least, even with the most CPU limited games I could find (where the GPU downclocks like mad) forcing "max performance" did not help with smoothness or anything, it only increased power draw, with zero benefit. I see the same with video playback. The clocks fluctuate as needed by the application yes, but it's so responsive and smooth it causes no issues, even though the render times can fluctuate dramatically sometimes (but with those cards I have too much headroom to care about render times). Very often I play games where my 4090 stays in fanless mode, sometimes it's switching between modes while playing too but that's still not noticeable in actual gameplay - frametimes are flat and perceived smoothness is perfect (using VRR and framerate cap). You have to be monitoring the clocks or the fans (or your ears) to notice.
I currently am using JRVR and HDR passthrough (4090, Win 11, LG CX at 120hz with HDMI) and have no issues (ironically madVR passthrough has been broken for me ever since I installed Win 11, it causes occasional "rainbow" glitches with HDR content - which is why I set up JRVR in the first place since I was fine with my old setup). I am one or two NV drivers revision behind though (I update them based on the games I am currently playing, or if there is a fix for an issue I have).
But yes I have had video playback glitches too (stutters or repeated frames etc.) several times over the years. It was always just some silly thing that got fixed by upgrading or downgrading video drivers. The exact same thing that happens with some games.
-
I have plans for a different presentation mode that should be less dependent on "real-time" rendering from GPUs and hopefully offer better stability over small performance hiccups.
What I can't really say anything on right now is long dropouts, which seem to be driven by something on the audio side. We're looking into that, but I see people reporting similar issues when just watching Netflix in their browser or such, so it might be out of our reach.
-
this thread is crazy long and way too technical fir me o benefit from it. i just want my movies to stop pausing every 5 seconds (not exaggerating). can someone please walk me through how to fix this? all i do is watch movies off of my ssd no streaming or vr. thanks in advance for any help
-
this thread is crazy long and way too technical fir me o benefit from it. i just want my movies to stop pausing every 5 seconds (not exaggerating). can someone please walk me through how to fix this? all i do is watch movies off of my ssd no streaming or vr. thanks in advance for any help
How about creating a new thread about your issue instead of hijacking this one? It has nothing to do with the issue raised in this thread, which you might have realised if you had read its title.
-
Thought I'd post a quick update on something I noticed tonight regarding the issue(s) in this thread.
I'd been using Nividia driver 532.03 for my 3060 per Manni's suggestion somewhere above and have had no dropped or repeated frames in JRVR for a few weeks now with it doing the tone mapping (i.e., "Use the display's HDR capability for HDR videos (if available)" is unchecked).
Tonight, when I updated Windows (a cumulative update to 22H2), there was on option through Windows Update to update "Nvidia - Display," which apparently installed driver version 537.70. After, just to see if this more recent driver worked or not, I watched an entire 4K episode of a show (about 53 minutes) and had 0 dropped or repeated frames.
In looking at my driver update history in Windows Update, it looks like there was one of these "Nvidia - Display" updates last week (on December 6th) too, and as I said, I haven't had any dropped/repeated frames since I installed the older driver noted above; I'm not sure, however, if that 12/6 update changed the driver, as I didn't notice the update in the first place, nor had I looked at the driver version in a while before tonight.
At any rate, maybe a secret with Nvidia drivers is to let Windows install them via this "Nvidia - Display" thing and not go through Nvidia itself? At least for us non-gamers?
I also see in the list of older drivers on the Nvidia site that 537.70 isn't listed. Not sure what that means.
Anyway, FYI.
-
As you're NOT using HDR passthrough (and assuming you're not using a HDMI 2.0 input on an AVR with a HDMI 2.1 GPU either, which causes a black screen at 4K24 in 10/12bits with recent drivers) there is no need to use an older driver with JRVR.
The bug reported in this thread only happens when using HDR passthrough (i.e., "Use the display's HDR capability for HDR videos (if available)" is checked).
What happens with any driver is the long audio/video dropout after 1-2 hours, but that happens with any driver and isn't specific to JRVR, even though Hendrik said they were looking at it (which is appreciated).
So you could really install the latest driver and be done with it :)
-
@Manni,
I actually had the frame drop/repeat problem with both JRVR doing the tone mapping and with passthrough, and the older Nvidia drivers seemed to solve that problem for me. At any rate, tonight I'll try it with passthrough enabled to see if there's any difference with this new driver I noted in my post last night.
-
I have plans for a different presentation mode that should be less dependent on "real-time" rendering from GPUs and hopefully offer better stability over small performance hiccups.
What I can't really say anything on right now is long dropouts, which seem to be driven by something on the audio side. We're looking into that, but I see people reporting similar issues when just watching Netflix in their browser or such, so it might be out of our reach.
I'm trying to follow this with my limited knowledge/hands on as best I can, but I wonder if there would be little if any dropouts if HDMI and/or Displayport video only ports can be used, so that the audio was fed separately via SPDIF (albeit stereo only) or USB (potentially multichannel).
-
As an update - I don't seem to get the frame drops anymore - or at least not reported by JRVR.
However, I do get extreme swings in reported VSYNC measurements, which manifests as frames appearing too quickly or too slowly. They are visually apparent. My workaround when this occurs is to maximize and minimize the Display view, pause the video right click to bring up the popup menu, then close the popup menu, and otherwise fiddle with the jriver user interface. Eventually, something "snaps" and then the vsync becomes stable, and the frames stop become a jumble.
One way to also see this without straining your eyes is to install MSI Afterburner with Rivatuner Statistics server enabled. Then configure the OSD to show the frame time graph. The graph should be almost completely flat. If it starts wobbling up and down, then that means the frame pacing is unstable.
I haven't had time to take screenshots of this frame time graph, but it should be easy to duplicate once you figure out how to configure MSI Afterburner + Rivatuner OSD stats (it is not easy to get that working).
-
delete.