INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 23 for Windows => Topic started by: tbng on February 07, 2018, 08:01:17 am
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Those of us with surround systems generally have a processor that automatically determines how many channels are present in the incoming signal. If the processor sees a two-channel input, it can be set to switch automatically to a desired DSP setting that creates a virtual surround sound field. This is ideal for classical music listeners for whom hall ambience is an inherent part of the musical experience. If you set JRiver output to 5.1 and the input is two-channel, JRiver still outputs a 5.1 format with no data in the center and surround channels. The surround processor still sees a 5.1 signal and will not initiate the desired two-channel DSP.
JRiver users must configure separate output zones, i.e., one for multi-channel and another for two-channel, then manually select the desired one prior to playback. It works but it's a nuisance. This method eliminates obtaining desired results from a playlist that contains both two and multi-channel recordings, and JRiver can hang when switching between them manually.
I urge JRiver please to add an output setting that would allow the software to output a multi-channel signal when that is the source but automatically switch to a two-channel output when that is the source. Roon has recently added just such a setting, so I know it can be done.
It would also be helpful if the entire multi-channel configuration process were coordinated and simplified. I needed months to figure it out even and stumbled upon the final required step only by trial and error.
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Thats what the "Source number of channels" option is for, the number of channels is output entirely as-is.
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Thats what the "Source number of channels" option is for, the number of channels is output entirely as-is.
Yes but, in many cases, it doesn't work as expected.
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JRiver users must configure separate output zones, i.e., one for multi-channel and another for two-channel, then manually select the desired one prior to playback. It works but it's a nuisance. This method eliminates obtaining desired results from a playlist that contains both two and multi-channel recordings, and JRiver can hang when switching between them manually.
I urge JRiver please to add an output setting that would allow the software to output a multi-channel signal when that is the source but automatically switch to a two-channel output when that is the source. Roon has recently added just such a setting, so I know it can be done.
This is done automatically using ZoneSwitch (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=76605.0). However, this doesn't work if trying to playback a mixed playlist.
Your other options are to use "Source number of channels" as Hendrik mentioned or to bitstream (turned on in Tools > Options > Audio) to your processor. Bitstreaming means you can't use JRiver's volume control or DSP.
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Yes but, in many cases, it doesn't work as expected.
It does work as designed, ie. it sends the audio without any changes of channel count to your device. This seems to be exactly what you are asking for. This is the option thats supposed to do just that. What doesn't work?
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This seems to be exactly what you are asking for.
Just to clarify, kr4 did not start the thread. :)
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We can still hold him responsible, can't we?
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I have a 7.1 system, and I have really not been too troubled in playing 2.0, 5.0, 5.1 and 7.1 files. My music files are all 2.0, 5.0 or 5.1. Some BD videos are 7.1, others 5.1. I do have some 3.0 and 4.0 files, but they use 5.0 container files, so no problem.
I use two zones - 5.1 and 7.1 output - together with "For Stereo Sources, only mix to 2.1" in DSP Studio. I do use JR Room Corection for bass management. Zoneswitch automatically switches from the 5.1 to the 7.1 zone automatically as needed based on the Channels tag. Yes, the two zones would lose the current playlist when switching. But, I never intermix music and 7.1 video in the same playlist. That does not make sense to me. And, I have only a few music BD-As in 7.1.
So, output is always 2.1 for 2.0 input files and 5.1 for 5.0 or 5.1 input files. It is 7.1 for 7.1 BD files, mainly videos. I use a Mch DAC now, but when I formerly used a Mch prepro via HDMI, the above worked fine with bass management in the prepro permanently turned off in favor of JRiver bass management.
I did have some channel misalignment for a time at first because I had been using Source Number of Channels instead of 5.1 or 7.1 as my output setting in DSP Studio. Source Number of Channels causes channel misassigments between 5.0 and 5.1 input files. It is deceptive that way.
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Contrary to what some you have claimed, "source number of channels" does NOT function in the way that name implies. Selecting that configurarion will NOT result in a dynamic change in output number of channels based on input number of channels. If you select 5.1 in JRiver, you will ALWAYS get 5.1. If the source is two-channel, you will still get 5.1 out with three of the channels containing no data. Dataless channels mean nothing to a surround processor. It still sees that as 5.1 and, therefore, will not enage two-channel DSP processing. The user must manually select the desired zone in JRiver prior to playback so that it send two of multi channels, a shortcoming for reasons I have already stated. If Roon can do it, so can JRiver.
I eagerly await a JRiver representative's comments on this matter.
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Hendrik is on the JRiver team.
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Selecting "Source Number of channels" works just fine. I confirmed it just now. Note that for an output device to see such a change, you need to use an exclusive audio output like WASAPI in exclusive mode.
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Stereo and Surround 4, 5, 5.1, 6 channels work (with 4-way crossover, total 12 channels).
I configured 12 channel fix.
DAC is a RME UFX.
I play flac with various numbers of channel. (and bit rates)
Stereo gets stereo out
5.1 gets 5.1 out and any other combination also.
The files must be in standardized channel format ITU):
1 left
2 right
3 Center
4 Sub
5 Rear left
6 Rear right
In that combination JRiver works fine (MC22.0.11)
Peter
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Contrary to what some you have claimed, "source number of channels" does NOT function in the way that name implies.
If your Audio Device in Tools > Options > Audio Device says [Direct Sound] after it, you are going through the Windows mixer after the audio leaves JRiver. Your Sound settings in Windows Control Panel will then determine how many channels you are actually outputting.
Use a hardware direct method of output: Audio Output Modes (https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes)
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It does work as designed, ie. it sends the audio without any changes of channel count to your device. This seems to be exactly what you are asking for. This is the option thats supposed to do just that. What doesn't work?
i have some dsd files that are 4.0 audio and source number of channels does not work for me. i need to set up a zone as 5.1 to hear the surround channels as jriver outputs 2.0 if i use source number of channels.
anything that is 2.0, 5.1, 7.1 work just fine with source number of channels
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We can still hold him responsible, can't we?
You can try but, if you are playing to a 6-8 channel DAC and you set the output to (Same as input), you get improper channel mapping with 4.0 and 5.0 sources. I have not had such problems in years because selecting 5.1 works for me with any source format.
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I need to clarify a point that I think is being missed.
JRiver will play a two-channel recording just fine using a 5.1 output configuration BUT ONLY IN STEREO. I do not want to listen to two-channel recordings merely in stereo but want to engage DSP processing to create virtual surround. To do that, the processor must see a two-channel input. If the processor sees a 5.1 input, even if three of the channels contain zero data, it will assume discrete multi-channel input and not engage applicable DSP processing.
These are facts that I know about JRiver after a year or more of trying:
1. Configured with "source number of channels," JRiver cannot and will not playback a multi-channel source but demand that the user change to a two-channel output configuration to continue. The name implies that it functions as an automatic channel selection setting, but it does not.
2. JRiver can and does permit configuration of a zone that outputs a two-channel signal that works exactly as I want it.
3. JRiver can and does permit configuration of a zone that outputs a multi-channel signal that works exactly as I want it.
4. JRiver cannot and does not provide a means to switch automatically between the functions described in 2 and 3. Rather, it is incumbent on the user to switch zones manually prior to playback. This is what I want to change.
P.S. In both zone configurations, the output device used in my JRiver setup is "HD621 (Intel(R) Display Audio [WASPI]". "HD621" refers to a Meridian HD621 HDMI interface that acts as the DAC in this case, although it sends the signal still in digital format to a Meridian 861V8 where the actual D-to-A conversion is accomplished.
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"Source Number of Channels" functions just like you want it to - unless your device doesn't actually accept the number of channels you are trying to send it - in which case you are given an option to configure a different number of channels to mix to.
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"Source Number of Channels" functions just like you want it to - unless your device doesn't actually accept the number of channels you are trying to send it - in which case you are given an option to configure a different number of channels to mix to.
That is not entirely so. The number of channels is not the same as the mapping of channels. If one uses "Source Number of Channels" with a 4.0 source and outputs it to an 8 channel DAC, the output is LF/RF/LS/RS (without space holders for the missing Ctr/Sub channels). As a result, the hard-wired connections from the DAC send the LF/RF to the correct amp/speakers but the LS/RS to the Center and Subwoofer speakers. If one chooses "5.1" as an output format, MC inserts silent Ctr/Sub outputs in the appropriate place and playback is as expected.
"Source Number of Channels" is literally correct but not always appropriate.
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"Source Number of Channels" functions just like you want it to - unless your device doesn't actually accept the number of channels you are trying to send it - in which case you are given an option to configure a different number of channels to mix to.
Actually, that is not true. Mch SACDs, for example, exist as both 5.0 and 5.1 mixes. However, the Channel metadata tag value on the disc is either the integer value 5 or 6. But, 6 is not the same as 5.1 and JRiver interprets it as a 6.0 recording with no sub channel, causing the channel misassigment. It redirects the disc sub channel to a different channel also messing up surround/back channel assignments.
I am not blaming JRiver. It is a subtle, inadvertent miscue between metadata standards on the disc and the interpretation by JR. Possibly 6.0 recordings exist, although I have never encountered any. Unfortunately, Source Number of Channels lulls people to sleep thinking they have gotten it right. It seems logical, though it does not work as desired. It took me awhile to discover the problem, because it is not necessarily blatantly obvious in listening to unfamiliar recordings on my 7.1 system. I discovered it only by looking at instantaneous channel output levels using the display in my Exasound driver. My reaction was WTF.
The symptoms might be different on a 5.1 system, such as refusing to play. Others have reported issues due to this in 5.1 systems in this forum. Fortunately, setting the DSP Studio output parameter to 5.1 solves the problem for both 5.0 and 5.1 files.
I just saw Kal's response above, also. Thanks, Kal, for an even more detailed explanation.
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That is not entirely so. The number of channels is not the same as the mapping of channels. If one uses "Source Number of Channels" with a 4.0 source and outputs it to an 8 channel DAC, the output is LF/RF/LS/RS (without space holders for the missing Ctr/Sub channels). As a result, the hard-wired connections from the DAC send the LF/RF to the correct amp/speakers but the LS/RS to the Center and Subwoofer speakers. If one chooses "5.1" as an output format, MC inserts silent Ctr/Sub outputs in the appropriate place and playback is as expected.
"Source Number of Channels" is literally correct but not always appropriate.
Actually, that is not true. Mch SACDs, for example, exist as both 5.0 and 5.1 mixes. However, the Channel metadata tag value on the disc is either the integer value 5 or 6. But, 6 is not the same as 5.1 and JRiver interprets it as a 6.0 recording with no sub channel, causing the channel misassigment. It redirects the disc sub channel to a different channel also messing up surround/back channel assignments.
The symptoms might be different on a 5.1 system, such as refusing to play. Others have reported issues due to this in 5.1 systems in this forum. Fortunately, setting the DSP Studio output parameter to 5.1 solves the problem for both 5.0 and 5.1 files.
That explains what I've been seeing since forever as well! I never could figure it out and just resorted to using automatic zone switching to send 4.0 and 5.0 audio to a "Quad Audio" zone in a 5.1 wrapper. That causes issues with playlists though.
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Mch SACDs, for example, exist as both 5.0 and 5.1 mixes. However, the Channel metadata tag value on the disc is either the integer value 5 or 6. But, 6 is not the same as 5.1 and JRiver interprets it as a 6.0 recording with no sub channel, causing the channel misassigment.
Would it be correct, in your opinion, to interpret 6 as 5.1? If everyone agrees, we should be able to do that.
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Would it be correct, in your opinion, to interpret 6 as 5.1? If everyone agrees, we should be able to do that.
Jim - that would be fine by me, and it might help current and future users avoid the Source Number of Channels trap. Unless someone has a lot of 6.0 BDs or other formats - DVD maybe, but I doubt it - it should not cause a major problem.
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I think the issue here is the difference between DACs, which are 'dumb' devices, and an AVR or a Sound Card.
With a 'dumb' device like a DAC, each channel has a fixed assignment, typically:
1 - Left
2 - Right
3 - Center
4 - LFE
5 - Side Left
6 - Side Right
7 - Rear Left
8 - Rear Right
So if you send them a four channel source, they map the Rear Left/Rear Right channels to Center / LFE (channels 3 & 4).
When you send a Sound Card or AVR a four channel source, they know that it's a quadrophonic track, and map the Rear Left/Rear Right to the correct output channels (7 & 8).
I'm not sure that there is anything for Media Center to do here, because Media Center is behaving correctly.
When you play a four channel source and tell it to use the "source number of channels", it outputs a four channel signal mapped to channels 1-4.
If you set the output to "5.1 channels" it maps the output to channels 1,2,5,6 and if you set the output to "7.1 channels" it maps them to 1,2,7,8 ensuring that the sound is played to the Rear channels rather than the Center/LFE channels.
(apparently Rear Left/Rear Right move from channels 5 & 6 in 5.1 to 7 & 8 in a 7.1 signal, unless Media Center is doing the wrong thing here)
Jim - that would be fine by me, and it might help current and future users avoid the Source Number of Channels trap. Unless someone has a lot of 6.0 BDs or other formats - DVD maybe, but I doubt it - it should not cause a major problem.
The fact that 6.0 media exists means that it would be a problem if you tried to map all 6 channel sources to a 5.1 output.
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i have some dsd files that are 4.0 audio and source number of channels does not work for me. i need to set up a zone as 5.1 to hear the surround channels as jriver outputs 2.0 if i use source number of channels.
anything that is 2.0, 5.1, 7.1 work just fine with source number of channels
I also have some DSD rips/extracts from SACD with 3 or 4 channel audio. However, they are all in 5.0 containers as DSFs with the appropriate channels null and containing no audio signal. So, 5.1 output works as expected with them, as would Source Number of Channels, being equal to 5 in each case.
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This issue has come up before. A solution may be to just add the explicit options as an option under Source Number of Channels. For example,
4 Channel - LF/RF/LS/RS (4.0)
or
4 Channel - LF/RF/C/LFE (3.1)
5 Channel - LF/RF/C/LS/RS (5.0)
or
5 Channel - LF/RF/C/LFE/BS (4.1) (BS = Back Surround = LS+RS)
6 Channel - LF/RF/C/LFE/LS/RS (5.1)
or
6 Channel - LF/RF/LS/RS/LR/RR(6.0) (S - Side, R = Rear)
and any other options that can be identified.
It may be just a matter of having a option to include LFE or not when using Source Number of Channels, and have the mappings happen behind the scenes.
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I think the issue here is the difference between DACs, which are 'dumb' devices, and an AVR or a Sound Card.
With a 'dumb' device like a DAC, each channel has a fixed assignment, typically:
1 - Left
2 - Right
3 - Center
4 - LFE
5 - Side Left
6 - Side Right
7 - Rear Left
8 - Rear Right
So if you send them a four channel source, they map the Rear Left/Rear Right channels to Center / LFE (channels 3 & 4).
When you send a Sound Card or AVR a four channel source, they know that it's a quadrophonic track, and map the Rear Left/Rear Right to the correct output channels (7 & 8).
I'm not sure that there is anything for Media Center to do here, because Media Center is behaving correctly.
When you play a four channel source and tell it to use the "source number of channels", it outputs a four channel signal mapped to channels 1-4.
If you set the output to "5.1 channels" it maps the output to channels 1,2,5,6 and if you set the output to "7.1 channels" it maps them to 1,2,7,8 ensuring that the sound is played to the Rear channels rather than the Center/LFE channels.
(apparently Rear Left/Rear right move from channels 5 & 6 in 5.1 to 7 & 8 in a 7.1 signal, unless Media Center is doing the wrong thing here)
The fact that 6.0 media exists means that it would be a problem if you tried to map all 6 channel sources to a 5.1 output.
Maybe because I only use SACD or BD rips, I have never seen files with only 3,4 or 7 actual physical channels. 6 channels in the metadata tag on any of my files really always means 5.1. Otherwise, all my files are 2, 5 or 8 in the metadata tag, with 8 meaning 7.1 on output. As explained, the 3 or 4 channel SACD recordings I have are already in 5 channel containers automatically via the ripping/extraction process.
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Maybe because I only use SACD or BD rips, I have never seen files with only 3,4 or 7 actual physical channels. 6 channels in the metadata tag on any of my files really always means 5.1. Otherwise, all my files are 2, 5 or 8 in the metadata tag, with 8 meaning 7.1 on output. As explained, the 3 or 4 channel SACD recordings I have are already in 5 channel containers automatically via the ripping/extraction process.
There is a 6.0 format that has been used. It was never very popular, but it definitely exists. It has 2 fronts, 2 sides. 2 rears and no LFE. It is meant for music, especially classical music, not movies. The center channel for an orchestra is pretty meaningless. Low bass goes to the front. The mapping is in my previous post. I would need to check, but I am pretty sure that is correct.
EDIT : Here is a link to a discussion of 6.0 audio.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/chesky.htm
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There is a 6.0 format that has been used. It was never very popular, but it definitely exists. It has 2 fronts, 2 sides. 2 rears and no LFE. It is meant for music, especially classical music, not movies. The center channel for an orchestra is pretty meaningless. Low bass goes to the front. The mapping is in my previous post. I would need to check, but I am pretty sure that is correct.
Do you know what medium they occurred on, DAD perhaps? 6.0's are probably some 1990's relic. Once SACD's Scarlet Book was published about '99, the 5.0/5.1 ITU channel configuration became the widespread standard as SACD became the prevailing force for Mch music. Fortunately, that was also compatible with later DTS and Dolby standards for lossless, hirez BD codecs.
It is possible, but I am still doubting there is much music or video out there in 6.0.
We disagree, by the way, on the importance of the center channel for classical, orchestral or other music in Mch.
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Do you know what medium they occurred on, DAD perhaps? 6.0's are probably some 1990's relic. Once SACD's Scarlet Book was published about '99, the 5.0/5.1 ITU channel configuration became the widespread standard as SACD became the prevailing force for Mch music. Fortunately, that was also compatible with later DTS and Dolby standards for lossless, hirez BD codecs.
It is possible, but I am still doubting there is much music or video out there in 6.0.
We disagree, by the way, on the importance of the center channel for classical, orchestral or other music in Mch.
6.0 recordings came about at the time of SACDs and DVD-A. It was an alternative to 5.1. If you read the Chesky article I linked to, it discusses the important of side and rear reflects for concert hall music and why he, at least, favored that over a center and LFE channel. There are certainly 6.0 options on some SACD/DVD-A, although, as I said, it was never a big player. Mch players and receivers of the time had 6.0 input and output options.
Probably overstated the usefulness of the center channel for classical. The point was it is very different for classical than for movies. I would agree that a center is great for soundstage, but that is definitely different than the use of center speakers for voice in movies. And the center should be full range, which they seldom are.
Meridian once had a 3 channel front system that basically created a great center sound stage using the left and right channels. It was impressive, but never caught on.
Anyway, the number of people with 6.0 files is certainly very small, but it was a legitimate format for a while.
EDIT: I think the only 6.0 DVD-Audios that were release were from Chesky Records (David Chesky). I cannot find any other references. They were never in high production, but there were some out there. The problem was you needed a specific speaker setup and you then you needed to turn off LFE +10dB boost.
As I said, never really caught on, but it was out there. But my guess is that if 6.0 went to 5.1 nobody would notice. But, if fixes for the other anomalies can be made, might as well leave in 6.0
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Maybe because I only use SACD or BD rips, I have never seen files with only 3,4 or 7 actual physical channels. 6 channels in the metadata tag on any of my files really always means 5.1. Otherwise, all my files are 2, 5 or 8 in the metadata tag, with 8 meaning 7.1 on output. As explained, the 3 or 4 channel SACD recordings I have are already in 5 channel containers automatically via the ripping/extraction process.
I have DVDs and Blu-rays with 3, 5, and 7 channels stored on them. 3 channels is typically L/R/C, 5 channels doesn't use the LFE, and 7 channels is 6.1
I don't have any Blu-rays or DVDs with 4 channels, but do have a few music tracks - though not SACD. 4.0 is typically stored in a 5.0 or 5.1 container.
I'm sure that I have some 6.0 discs, but can't see an easy way to identify them without playing them one-by-one.
As I said, never really caught on, but it was out there. But my guess is that if 6.0 went to 5.1 nobody would notice. But, if fixes for the other anomalies can be made, might as well leave in 6.0
I'm not clear on what mapping all 6 channel formats to 5.1 is supposed to fix anyway.
I just went through 25 6-channel SACDs using preview mode, and they're all treated as 5.1 by Media Center, not 6.0
I suspect this is another channel mapping issue caused by using the "Source Channels" with a DAC rather than an AVR / Sound Card.
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I have DVDs and Blu-rays with 3, 5, and 7 channels stored on them. 3 channels is typically L/R/C, 5 channels doesn't use the LFE, and 7 channels is 6.1
I don't have any Blu-rays or DVDs with 4 channels, but do have a few music tracks - though not SACD. 4.0 is typically stored in a 5.0 or 5.1 container.
I'm sure that I have some 6.0 discs, but can't see an easy way to identify them without playing them one-by-one.
I'm not clear on what mapping all 6 channel formats to 5.1 is supposed to fix anyway.
I just went through 25 6-channel SACDs using preview mode, and they're all treated as 5.1 by Media Center, not 6.0
I suspect this is another channel mapping issue caused by using the "Source Channels" with a DAC rather than an AVR / Sound Card.
Agreed, there is no way to tell if there is an LFE channel in a file other than by convention, since the file header only has the total number of channels. The header has no information about whether or not an LFE channel is present.
From Fitzcaraldo215 comments above, it seems like Source Number of Channels of 6 for an SACD does not map to 5.1, but some other mix without an LFE. But you say all of your 6 channel map to 5.1. So there seems to be a disconnect on that.
Mapping all 6 to 5.1 would probably fix that problem, while introducing a problem for true 6.0 files, which are quite rare.
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I'm not sure that there is anything for Media Center to do here, because Media Center is behaving correctly.
Yes, it is behaving as intended. I am not disputing it but, as you point out, it is not behaving appropriately in all instances for all people.
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Right. I don't really need a fix for 6=5.1 if using Source Number of Channels. Everything in my library maps fine for me using 5.1 and 7.1 zones with Zoneswitch. I would be happy to stay that way.
I only raised the concern because others had reported having the problem, which was fixed by just using 5.1 or 7.1 as output parameters.
It appears there might be some extremely rare, old Mch files (like fine wine!) that are six-channel 6.0 and not 5.1. On the other hand, I suspect there are many more current JR users who are experiencing a channel misassigment between 5.0/5.1 they just do not know about while using Source Number of Channels. The audible symptoms are sometimes subtle, as they were for me.
But, what might make the most sense as JR policy here is to leave the current mechanism alone, 6 channels = 6.0, not 5.1 output. Perhaps, just raising awareness of the issue better and including some sort of warning text when selecting the Source Number of Channels option would be sufficient.
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Isn't this the real problem here?
This is done automatically using ZoneSwitch (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=76605.0). However, this doesn't work if trying to playback a mixed playlist.
If ZoneSwitch worked within a Playlist, switching smoothly from Stereo to 5.1 to 4.0 to 7.1, based on good rules which may mean some additional tagging of files for the desired output channel format, wouldn't this issue just go away?
Sure, "smoothly" may be difficult. There would at least be some switching issues for the target DAC/AVR/Sound Card, so transitions and Gapless playback may suffer. But that may be a reasonable tradeoff for being able to play any and all channel formats without intervention, in one Playlist.
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But, 6 is not the same as 5.1 and JRiver interprets it as a 6.0 recording with no sub channel
I don't think this is true. The default channel layout for 6 channels without any layout indication is 5.1, and I also checked the DSD input plugin just in case it might override this - it does not.
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I am not into multichannel music ... I only use multichannel for movies
But here is suggestion ... why not have extra tag for music/videos that JRiver automatically populate when importing media that describes channel mapping ... then use that tag for playback
If JRiver interpret channel mapping incorrectly ... can then manually change that tag ... since JRiver seems to interprets most multichannel correctly, changing few odd tags manually does not seems like a big chore
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If ZoneSwitch worked within a Playlist, switching smoothly from Stereo to 5.1 to 4.0 to 7.1, based on good rules which may mean some additional tagging of files for the desired output channel format, wouldn't this issue just go away?
IMV anything that moves more DSP configuration into zoneswitch is a bad thing. In this case it seems the bigger change is enabling jriver to change audio device (config) on track change, once you've done that then using multiple zones seems like unnecessary overhead vs a dsp block change (like the output channel mapping via tags suggestion). It would be even better if this came alongside decoupling output format from mix target (not entirely obvious if this is directly related to this problem but is in the same ballpark at least).
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IMV anything that moves more DSP configuration into zoneswitch is a bad thing.
Well, it depends how well it works I guess.
I don't consider Zones to be physical playback zones anymore. I consider them to be Output Profiles which include the Audio Device and DSP settings. Changing the Output Profile to match the track format seems like a logical idea. Of course, it may be very difficult to do well, or even at all.
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I don't consider Zones to be physical playback zones anymore.
the coupling of physical locations and configurations of those locations is the bad thing, it turns a single MC instance into something that can really only talk to one location (if you need multiple configurations for that location). I'm probably going OT for this thread though.
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I am not into multichannel music ... I only use multichannel for movies
But here is suggestion ... why not have extra tag for music/videos that JRiver automatically populate when importing media that describes channel mapping ... then use that tag for playback
If JRiver interpret channel mapping incorrectly ... can then manually change that tag ... since JRiver seems to interprets most multichannel correctly, changing few odd tags manually does not seems like a big chore
I think all you need is a tag as to whether or not there is a LFE channel. After that the mappings are all set by convention.
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I can think of at least 3 different 7.1 surround formats:
1) Left, Center, Right, Left Side, Right Side Left Rear, Right Rear and Sub
2) Left, Inner Left, Center, Inner Right, Right, Left Surround, Right Surround and Sub
3) Left Height, Left, Center, Right, Right Height, Left Surround, Right Surround and Sub
All have an LFE
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Yes, it is behaving as intended. I am not disputing it but, as you point out, it is not behaving appropriately in all instances for all people.
I think you're misunderstanding the problem. There is nothing for Media Center to fix; you need to select the appropriate number of output channels for your device (5.1 / 7.1) if you are using a DAC rather than an AVR or Sound Card (or an AVR/Sound Card which lacks support for formats like 4.0).
Then Media Center handles the channel mapping rather than passing it through as-is for the device to handle.
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I can think of at least 3 different 7.1 surround formats:
1) Left, Center, Right, Left Side, Right Side Left Rear, Right Rear and Sub
2) Left, Inner Left, Center, Inner Right, Right, Left Surround, Right Surround and Sub
3) Left Height, Left, Center, Right, Right Height, Left Surround, Right Surround and Sub
All have an LFE
Pretty sure the Inner and Height channels are not typically stored in a 7.1 file. The are usually generated within the receiver. They can be stored in a higher level file format.
Here is the normal order in a file for a 7.1 file
1 Front Left - FL
2 Front Right - FR
3 Front Center - FC
4 Low Frequency - LF
5 Surround Left - SL
6 Surround Right - SR
7 Back Left - BL
8 Back Right - BR
Note that the terms Surround (or Side) and Back sometimes get interchanged. But the 5/6 positions are for the speakers in a typically 5.1 setup and the 7/8 positions are for the additional speakers in a 7.1 setup, which are typically behind the listener.
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I don't think this is true. The default channel layout for 6 channels without any layout indication is 5.1, and I also checked the DSD input plugin just in case it might override this - it does not.
I have not tested this recently. But, I clearly had a channel mismatch problem when using Source Number of Channels when playing Mch SACDs into a USB DAC. Kal and quite a few others here and in other forums did too. Changing the output to 5.1 fixed it in all cases I am aware of for both 5.0 and 5.1 files.
As I said previously, I determined this by observing the instaneous channel-by-channel level indicators in my Exasound driver. It has been awhile, and I am not sure if the problem occurred on 5.0 or 5.1 files. I recall that one was OK and the other was not. Note also that I was using JR bass management, which might or might not have affected the issue. Also, I was using Dirac Live DAP at the time, now VST plugin, on my PC ahead of the Exasound driver in the signal path. It is doubtful that Dirac had an effect on channel misalignment.
I have no idea what was happening before that into an Integra prepro via HDMI, where I did not use bitstreaming but used JR bass management. It might or might not have been the same. But, others have reported a similar issue using Mch processors, again fixed by using 5.1 as the output parameter. If they were doing bass management in the processor, misassigment of the sub channel might not be noticeable, since the deep bass would still be redirected to the sub by the processor's bass management.
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I have not tested this recently. But, I clearly had a channel mismatch problem when using Source Number of Channels when playing Mch SACDs into a USB DAC. Kal and quite a few others here and in other forums did too. Changing the output to 5.1 fixed it in all cases I am aware of for both 5.0 and 5.1 files.
Then the issue is that your DAC does not handle the unmapped input correctly, not that Media Center is doing anything wrong.
As I explained earlier in this topic, this is because DACs are typically 'dumb' devices that map channels 1:1 while AVRs and Sound Cards will remap channels automatically based on the input format.
Media Center will do that remapping itself if your playback device does not support it, if you select a specific output format such as 5.1 or 7.1 rather than "source channels".
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We have gone a bit far afield from the original upgrade request that began this stream.
To reiterate: JRiver software works exactly as I want it playing both multi- and two-channel recordings but only if I manually switch between pre-defined two-channel and 5.1 channel zones before initiating playback. The original question remains open: Will JRiver provide an upgrade to automate this function?
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ZoneSwitch should do that. Are you sure it doesn't?
If not, please start a ZoneSwitch topic.
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I think you're misunderstanding the problem. There is nothing for Media Center to fix; you need to select the appropriate number of output channels for your device (5.1 / 7.1) if you are using a DAC rather than an AVR or Sound Card (or an AVR/Sound Card which lacks support for formats like 4.0).
Then Media Center handles the channel mapping rather than passing it through as-is for the device to handle.
I was not disputing that.
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1. Configured with "source number of channels," JRiver cannot and will not playback a multi-channel source but demand that the user change to a two-channel output configuration to continue. The name implies that it functions as an automatic channel selection setting, but it does not.
This seems to be the issue here. I am not currently set up to test this, but do others see the same thing? That Source Number of Channels will not play back a multi-channel source? This does not seem right to me. Could it be an HDMI issue with the Meridian HD621 HDMI interface?
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We have gone a bit far afield from the original upgrade request that began this stream.
To reiterate: JRiver software works exactly as I want it playing both multi- and two-channel recordings but only if I manually switch between pre-defined two-channel and 5.1 channel zones before initiating playback. The original question remains open: Will JRiver provide an upgrade to automate this function?
Make sure that your audio device is configured to use WASAPI Exclusive Mode when "Source Number of Channels" is selected as the output.
Then the number of channels should match the files being played.
ZoneSwitch should do that. Are you sure it doesn't?
If not, please start a ZoneSwitch topic.
ZoneSwitch cannot handle mixed playlists of stereo and surround files. It creates two separate playlists.
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I have always used WASAPI, and the setting "open device for exclusive mode" has always been checked in my setup. It is not the issue.
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Pretty sure the Inner and Height channels are not typically stored in a 7.1 file. The are usually generated within the receiver. They can be stored in a higher level file format.
Here is the normal order in a file for a 7.1 file
1 Front Left - FL
2 Front Right - FR
3 Front Center - FC
4 Low Frequency - LF
5 Surround Left - SL
6 Surround Right - SR
7 Back Left - BL
8 Back Right - BR
Note that the terms Surround (or Side) and Back sometimes get interchanged. But the 5/6 positions are for the speakers in a typically 5.1 setup and the 7/8 positions are for the additional speakers in a 7.1 setup, which are typically behind the listener.
Although not very common the Sony SDDS format used the inner front speakers in its file format, which is what I was thinking of. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Dynamic_Digital_Sound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Dynamic_Digital_Sound)
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Although not very common the Sony SDDS format used the inner front speakers in its file format, which is what I was thinking of. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Dynamic_Digital_Sound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Dynamic_Digital_Sound)
According to the Wikipedia article, there was never a home-theater version of SDDS. It was a commercial only product.
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OK here is another example then 4.0.
Is that LF, RF, LS, RS or is it L, C, R, S?
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I have always used WASAPI, and the setting "open device for exclusive mode" has always been checked in my setup. It is not the issue.
So if you manually select 2.0 in DSP Studio your processor receives a 2 channel input, and if you select 5.1 it receives a 5.1 input, but when you select "source number of channels" it always receives a 5.1 signal?
OK here is another example then 4.0.
Is that LF, RF, LS, RS or is it L, C, R, S?
That's 4.0 and 3.1.
I don't think I've ever seen a 3.1 source in a 4 channel container; always inside a 5.1 signal (6 channels) with empty rear channels.
I have a couple of 3.0 Blu-rays which are stored in a 3 channel DTS-HD container, but no 4 channel discs.
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OK here is another example then 4.0.
Is that LF, RF, LS, RS or is it L, C, R, S?
This example seems like it is as much a receiver/DAC issue a anything else. It is not an order issue. As Kal says above, putting 4.0 into a 5.1 wrapper is a solution that avoids such issues.
This has gotten too far off topic to be useful, at least for me.
EDIT : IF S stands for Sub, I agree with RDJames. If it stands for Surround (Side) then it is a very unusual format. S is usually Surround or Side in these discussions. Sub should be called LFE or Sub for clarity.
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For R D James
You wrote, "So if you manually select 2.0 in DSP Studio your processor receives a 2 channel input, and if you select 5.1 it receives a 5.1 input, but when you select "source number of channels" it always receives a 5.1 signal?"
1. If I use source number of channels, two-channel sources play as expected but multi-channel records will not. When I try playing a multi-channel recording with source number of channels engaged, JRiver demands I change to a two-channel zone configuration and offers to do it for me if I click yes but never does it send out a 5.1 package.
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This seems to be the issue here. I am not currently set up to test this, but do others see the same thing? That Source Number of Channels will not play back a multi-channel source? This does not seem right to me. Could it be an HDMI issue with the Meridian HD621 HDMI interface?
Not in my experience. I no longer have an HD621, so I cannot refresh and confirm.
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For video playback, LAV Audio automatically puts any "odd" layouts into a standard layout container by adding empty channels, which should avoid such issues, would such an option for audio help?
ie. 3.0/4.0/4.1/5.0/etc would all become 5.1, and 6.0 would become 6.1 or 7.1 (6.1 is sometimes badly supported as well, and very few people actually have a rear/surround center).
Of course this might still prevent an external processor to process a 3.0 signal as it was 3.0, instead it would see a 5.1 signal, but most processors would likely not be able to do anything with 3.0 or 4.0 anyway, but only stereo.
Another possibility would be having an option to disable re-mixing of stereo streams, and only mix anything with more channel into the selected output format - which should also achieve what people seem to be asking for here.
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EDIT : IF S stands for Sub, I agree with RDJames. If it stands for Surround (Side) then it is a very unusual format. S is usually Surround or Side in these discussions. Sub should be called LFE or Sub for clarity.
S stands for mono surround and is NOT an unusual format at all it is the original Dolby Surround format and was used on movies before Dolby 5.1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Pro_Logic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Pro_Logic)
A list of standard speaker layouts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surround_sound#Standard_speaker_channels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surround_sound#Standard_speaker_channels)
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For R D James
You wrote, "So if you manually select 2.0 in DSP Studio your processor receives a 2 channel input, and if you select 5.1 it receives a 5.1 input, but when you select "source number of channels" it always receives a 5.1 signal?"
1. If I use source number of channels, two-channel sources play as expected but multi-channel records will not. When I try playing a multi-channel recording with source number of channels engaged, JRiver demands I change to a two-channel zone configuration and offers to do it for me if I click yes but never does it send out a 5.1 package.
That sounds like your issue is that you haven't got 5.1 playback working at all via Media Center, not that anything else is the problem.
You need to get that working first. I'd start by checking that your device is configured to the maximum number of channels that it supports in Windows' Sound Settings. (right-click the speaker in the system tray and select playback devices)
For video playback, LAV Audio automatically puts any "odd" layouts into a standard layout container by adding empty channels, which should avoid such issues, would such an option for audio help?
ie. 3.0/4.0/4.1/5.0/etc would all become 5.1, and 6.0 would become 6.1 or 7.1 (6.1 is sometimes badly supported as well, and very few people actually have a rear/surround center).
Of course this might still prevent an external processor to process a 3.0 signal as it was 3.0, instead it would see a 5.1 signal, but most processors would likely not be able to do anything with 3.0 or 4.0 anyway, but only stereo.
If I understand this correctly, this would be a new option in addition to "Source Number of Channels" which would be something like "Source Number of Channels (common formats only)" which would basically see Media Center change the output between 2.0, 5.1, and 7.1 where appropriate?
That could work well without making the configuration overly complicated.
Thinking about the problem some more though, do most people actually want "Source Channels" or are they really only looking for stereo sources to be output as 2.0 and multichannel sources to match their speaker layout?
The easier solution for this may be a checkbox below the mixing options which is "Output a 2.0 signal for stereo sources" which would then let you specify whether the system is 5.1, 7.1, or anything else, in the "Channels" selection.
EDIT: I see that you added a similar comment to your post. That's probably what people are actually asking for.
S stands for mono surround and is NOT an unusual format at all it is the original Dolby Surround format and was used on movies before Dolby 5.1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Pro_Logic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Pro_Logic)
Aren't these matrixed formats which present themselves as a 2 channel signal?
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For R. D. James
You wrote:
"That sounds like your issue is that you haven't got 5.1 playback working at all via Media Center."
That is incorrect. As I have stated on several occasions throughout this thread:
1. Multi-channel playback from JRiver works PERFECTLY on my system but ONLY if I first select a zone in JRiver defined with 5.1 channels out. If I try to play a multi-channel recording using a zone defined with "source number of channels," JRiver refuses to do it and demands I (or it) switch to a two-channel zone.
2. Two-channel playback from JRiver works PERFECTLY in my system but ONLY if I first select a two-channel output zone either configured with two channels or "source number of channels.
3. Playing two-channel recordings via a 5.1 zone setting does work but is unacceptable because JRiver still outputs a 5.1 package with three channels containing no data. That limits me to stereo playback because my surround processor still sees a 5.1 package and therefore will not engage two-channel DSP processing. Regardless of the brand, this is how all DSP surround processors function.
4. Ergo, JRiver works PERFECTLY in my system. The problem is that JRiver cannot play two- and multi-channel recordings consecutively without manual intervention to change the output zone. "Source number of channels" does not function as its title implies it should.
I just want JRiver to keep playing music sans manual intervention with the desired results and keep playing until I tell it to stop whether the recordings are all two-channel, all multi-channel, or a mixture of the two. That is, after all, the working definition of a playlist.
My suggestion is that if the output zone is defined as multi-channel and the source is only two channels, JRiver should dynamically switch the output to two channels. This could either be by default as Roon has chosen to do or by an optional setting. I would be happy to beta test this.
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1. Multi-channel playback from JRiver works PERFECTLY on my system but ONLY if I first select a zone in JRiver defined with 5.1 channels out. If I try to play a multi-channel recording using a zone defined with "source number of channels," JRiver refuses to do it and demands I (or it) switch to a two-channel zone.
So if you disable Zone Switch, and change that zone from "5.1 channels" to "Source Number of Channels" in DSP Studio without making any other changes you are no longer able to play 5.1 files in it?
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That is correct. Source number of channels has never worked with multi-channel sources.
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Before we go further, please clarify what you mean by "disable zone switch."
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Then the issue is that your DAC does not handle the unmapped input correctly, not that Media Center is doing anything wrong.
As I explained earlier in this topic, this is because DACs are typically 'dumb' devices that map channels 1:1 while AVRs and Sound Cards will remap channels automatically based on the input format.
Media Center will do that remapping itself if your playback device does not support it, if you select a specific output format such as 5.1 or 7.1 rather than "source channels".
I don't think so, and it is not a question of right or wrong. There is no sense arguing that JR is right by literal, textbook definition if many users are having a problem. It is a question of compatibility with most files and with most user Mch setups. Those setups might use HDMI, USB, Wasapi Exclusive mode, ASIO drivers or something else.
JR is in fact mapping the channels, but doing so incorrectly under certain circumstances, as with the file Channels tag value on Mch SACD = variably 5 or 6, which is being used in Source Number of Channels. This assumes, of course, that one is not bitstreaming Mch codecs from video files, like DTS HDMA, which any DAC could not handle anyway. Those would not be mapped physically to channels until they are decoded in a processor.
There may be rare, unusual Mch formats, some hypothetical rather than real. I don't think formats on video media have been the source of many user difficulties. I think the Mch SACD issue is probably the most prevalent because both 5.0 and 5.1 are about equally common.
But, I no longer have a problem myself as a result of using Zoneswitch between 5.1 and 7.1 zones and forgetting about Source Number of Channels. The effect on playlists is irrelevant to me, since I never include 7.1 videos in my music = FLAC and SACD playlists. And, stereo works fine for me too within both of my zones as 2.1, even comingled with Mch in the playlist.
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I do not have a multi-channel setup, but just tried a Windows 8 laptop with HDMI with a Yamaha receiver. I put 5.1 and 2.0 PCM files into playing now and played them, with Source Number of Channels set. Each time playback switched cleanly between the different formats with no errors. And I got appropriate 2 channel or 5.1 in the speakers. The files were both PCM files. I did have to use Direct Sound rather than WASAPI but I think that is an issue with my laptop.
So, it seems, that switching between 2.0 and 5.1 using Source Number of Channels is not a general problem and is probably specific to your setup.
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Before we go further, please clarify what you mean by "disable zone switch."
Right-click any of your zones, bring up the Zone Switch configuration, and disable it so that it does not route any of your files to another zone.
That is correct. Source number of channels has never worked with multi-channel sources.
The only thing you should be doing is:
1) Play a 5.1 (6-channel) file in your desired zone.
2) Stop playback, open DSP Studio, and change the output from "5.1 channels" to "source number of channels".
3) Hit the play button again.
The output being sent to your device should not be changing at all.
- 5.1 Channels (http://abload.de/img/5.1-channelskxsee.png)
- Source Channels (http://abload.de/img/source-channelssbs2i.png)
If that still isn't working, please upload a screenshot showing the Audio Path when a 5.1 track is playing.
I can't think of a reason why a zone would be able to play 5.1 tracks when DSP Studio has the Output Format set to "5.1 channels", but cannot play those same 5.1 tracks when it is set to "Source Number of Channels".
JR is in fact mapping the channels, but doing so incorrectly under certain circumstances, as with the file Channels tag value on Mch SACD = variably 5 or 6, which is being used in Source Number of Channels.
When you select "source number of channels" you are telling Media Center not to do any channel mapping. It passes that task on to the playback device.
If you send that to a 'dumb' device like a DAC, the channel mapping will be wrong because a DAC typically will not do any remapping. Media Center isn't getting the channel mapping wrong, the playback device is.
When playing to a device like a DAC you need to specify the output format in DSP Studio so that Media Center does the channel mapping instead.
This is why I think that Hendrik's suggestion to add a checkbox that outputs stereo files as a 2.0 signal may be the best solution.
That way you can have Media Center remap multichannel formats, but pass through stereo formats, rather than having to pass through everything to the playback device.
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Same problem. Works fine in 5.1, but when I change to source number of channels, JRiver will not play it and demands I change to a two-channel output. ZoneSwitch was on but is now off.
Where do I find the Audio Path of which you wanted a screen shot?
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1. If I use source number of channels, two-channel sources play as expected but multi-channel records will not. When I try playing a multi-channel recording with source number of channels engaged, JRiver demands I change to a two-channel zone configuration and offers to do it for me if I click yes but never does it send out a 5.1 package.
Could this scenario be happening here?
Source number of channels set in Zone being used.
A two channel track is played by the user.
The Meridian 861V8 detects the Stereo signal, switches to stereo, and performs its DSP.
Playback of stereo is stopped by the user, or the track finishes.
A Mch track is played by the user.
MC detects a Mch track, but knows that the output device, a "HD621 (Intel(R) Display Audio [WASPI]" is a stereo device. MC can't play a 5.1 track to a stereo device, so offers to change the track to 2 channel for playback.
Basically, could the Meridian 861V8 be telling MC what channel count it is set to, rather than the channel count it is capable of?
If the example above were reversed and a Mch track was played first, say 5.1, then a 2.0, MC would be happy to play a 2.0 track to a 5.1 device in a zone set to Source number of channels. The Meridian 861V8 should then detect the 2.0 channel track from MC and switch to 2.0 channels for playback, also turning on DSP.
Just a thought to explore.
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Meridians are rare birds. But, even there, I think you are way off the mark of what is happening. A Meridian just absolutely does not stop play by JRiver in order to do DSP.
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The Meridian HD621 is an HDMI switch with multiple inputs and one digital output. It does no DSP but transmits the digital signal via a single set of non-HDMI cables to the 861V8 (or other Meridian processor) where the DSP audio processing is accomplished. Based on how it acts with other sources, it sees any number of channels passed to it. I believe blaming the HD621 for any of this is going down the wrong path.
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Sorry guys, I Copy/Pasted the wrong Meridian component when I wrote that, and I wrote it in a hurry. I have updated my post above. Re-read it and see what you think.
This is nothing to do with blame. It is about understanding what is happening, and hence resolving your issue.
My understanding, and what Hendrik has written above, is that MC needs to know the capability of the target audio device. If it is asked to send 5.1 channel audio to a device that it believes only has stereo capability, then MC will offer to send it as stereo, which is exactly what you have reported as the observed behaviour.
1. Configured with "source number of channels," JRiver cannot and will not playback a multi-channel source but demand that the user change to a two-channel output configuration to continue. The name implies that it functions as an automatic channel selection setting, but it does not.
MC won't switch to the source 5.1 channels when it believes it is playing to a stereo device.
In fact, having the Meridian HD621 between the MC PC and the Meridian 861V8 may have an influence on MC's capability to determine what the target audio device is capable of. Because tbng, you did say;
P.S. In both zone configurations, the output device used in my JRiver setup is "HD621 (Intel(R) Display Audio [WASPI]". "HD621" refers to a Meridian HD621 HDMI interface that acts as the DAC in this case, although it sends the signal still in digital format to a Meridian 861V8 where the actual D-to-A conversion is accomplished.
So MC doesn't see the Meridian 861V8 as the output device it is playing to, but in fact, sees the Meridian HD621 as the target device. HDMI connections are fickle things, and adding in an HDMI switch could well be confusing MC.
Because it is the Meridian 861V8 processor that must communicate its capabilities when the source number of channels changes, and it must detect a stereo signal and engage DSP processing.
I do not want to listen to two-channel recordings merely in stereo but want to engage DSP processing to create virtual surround. To do that, the processor must see a two-channel input. If the processor sees a 5.1 input, even if three of the channels contain zero data, it will assume discrete multi-channel input and not engage applicable DSP processing.
Is the Meridian 861V8 communicating its capabilities correctly to MC via the Meridian HD621 when the source number of channels changes?
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I believe blaming the HD621 for any of this is going down the wrong path.
You should remove it and connect to your AVR directly. Process of elimination.
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The 861 doesn't have HDMI inputs so can't be directly connected. That's what the HD621 is for.
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The 861 doesn't have HDMI inputs so can't be directly connected. That's what the HD621 is for.
Ah, I didn't realize that.
I would try playing a track with 5.1 channels selected, and make note of the output in Audio Path; e.g. 24-bit (Padded).
Then use those settings manually in Tools > Options > Audio > Device Settings and see if that gets "Source Number of Channels" working.
If it still isn't working, try disabling WASAPI Event Style.
I wouldn't expect that to be the problem, since it works when a 5.1 output is selected, but it's already strange that selecting 5.1 works, when playing a 5.1 track and selecting "Source Number of Channels" does not.
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The 861 doesn't have HDMI inputs so can't be directly connected. That's what the HD621 is for.
That is true but the connections between the 861 and the 621 are software-based and their nature is determined by the Meridian set-up program. In effect, then, the HD621 "knows" the features of the 861 connections.
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The Meridian 861V8 does have a USB input though, so the Meridian HD621 could be eliminated from the audio chain for testing by using that, direct connecting the MC PC to the Meridian 861V8. I have to assume that there is a USB driver for the Meridian 861V8 if it has a USB input, or more likely that it would be detected as a USB Audio device if connected. It might need some configuration using MConfig though.
Of course, the issue could be with the Meridian 861V8 itself, selecting an input profile and sticking to it, or telling MC it is a Stereo device even though it could change to a Mch device.
Or if you are not willing to try a USB connection and you have another device connected to the Meridian HD621 via a second HDMI port:
1. Set MC to use "Source number of channels".
2. Play a stereo file and check that the Meridian 861V8 recognises the input and switches on its DSP. Stop playback or wait until it finishes.
3. With the other HDMI turned on, switch the HD621 to the input for that device.
4. Wait one minute to ensure that the HDMI connection completes its handshake correctly.
5. Switch the HD621 back to the MC PC HDMI input.
6. Wait one minute to ensure that the HDMI connection completes its handshake correctly.
7. Play a Mch file from MC to the HD621 and check if the Meridian 861V8 recognises the input and plays the file without trying to activate its DSP.
Did that work? Or did you see the MC message about selecting stereo output?
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The Meridian 861V8 does have a USB input though, so the Meridian HD621 could be eliminated from the audio chain for testing by using that, direct connecting the MC PC to the Meridian 861V8. I have to assume that there is a USB driver for the Meridian 861V8 if it has a USB input, or more likely that it would be detected as a USB Audio device if connected. It might need some configuration using MConfig though.
The USB input will not support multichannel. If it had, I would probably have kept it.
Of course, the issue could be with the Meridian 861V8 itself, selecting an input profile and sticking to it, or telling MC it is a Stereo device even though it could change to a Mch device.
Not if all is working as it should. I used the 861v8/HD621 (HDMI) for years with my PC-based server running MC. It distinguished stereo from MCH all the time without any change in connection or configuration.
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If it worked for you with Mch files, and without MC asking to switch 5.1 audio to stereo, then maybe there is a problem with the setup of tbng's Meridian 861V8. There does seem to be a lot of options and settings in MConfig.
MC doesn't ask to switch to stereo unless it thinks the output device is a stereo only device.
In fact I tried to create the error tbng has reported, which I'm sure I have seen before and specifically asks a user if MC can switch to stereo output, and I couldn't on my stereo system. Windows kept taking my 5.1 output and downmixing it to stereo, or just playing the first two channels only, without any message from MC. Even though I had Exclusive Access turned on for my motherboard soundcard connected to stereo speakers and set as stereo in Windows Playback Devices configuration.
The best I could do was to get the "Something went wrong with playback" message, which only occurred with;
In Media Center:
Source Number of channels (No upmixing or downmixing).
No output encoding.
Open Device for Exclusive Access turned on.
EDIT: "Options > Audio > Advanced > Auto configure output settings on playback error" set to: Ask. (Maybe that function isn't working at the moment? I should be prompted to changed settings on the error below.)
In the Windows Playback device:
Configured as a Stereo device.
Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device off. (So MC tries to take control and can't.)
I then get the error below. Note that I was using a 5.1 Movie file to test, as I don't have a 5.1 audio file on my stereo workstation here.
(https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=114295.0;attach=26755;image)
So tbng, could you produce the error message you get when you try to play a Mch file to the Meridian HD621 and post an image of it here? Ta.
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I think we need to see images of Audio Path when a 5.1 file is playing correctly, and an image of the error received when the output is changed from "5.1 channels" to "source number of channels".
The best I could do was to get the "Something went wrong with playback" message, which only occurred with;
In Media Center:
Open Device for Exclusive Access turned on.
In the Windows Playback device:
Allow applications to take exclusive control of this device off. (So MC tries to take control and can't.)
That should prevent playback on any audio device.
If you disable exclusive access, you can't play back audio using exclusive access.
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The Meridian 861V8 does have a USB input though, so the Meridian HD621 could be eliminated from the audio chain for testing by using that, direct connecting the MC PC to the Meridian 861V8. I have to assume that there is a USB driver for the Meridian 861V8 if it has a USB input, or more likely that it would be detected as a USB Audio device if connected. It might need some configuration using MConfig though.
Of course, the issue could be with the Meridian 861V8 itself, selecting an input profile and sticking to it, or telling MC it is a Stereo device even though it could change to a Mch device.
The USB input on the 861v8 is only two-channel. How I wish it were multi-channel.
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I think we need to see images of Audio Path when a 5.1 file is playing correctly, and an image of the error received when the output is changed from "5.1 channels" to "source number of channels".
I agree.
Where do I find the Audio Path of which you wanted a screen shot?
tbng, have you found the Audio Path in MC now? https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Path
That should prevent playback on any audio device.
Yeah, I know. I was trying to get MC to propose changing a 5.1 file output to 2.0. I'm sure I've seen that message before, when the "Auto configure output" setting was set to Ask. Couldn't produce it with a Video file. Need to get a 5.1 FLAC onto this PC to see if I can make it happen. I believe I need to have Exclusive Access turned on for the whole audio path, or Windows will step in and ruin things.
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I have a similar problem. In some playlists I have a mixture od SACD 2CH and SACD 6 CH files. In a DSP settings I set the output to 2 Channel as my DAC (using ASIO driver) is only a 2 channel DAC. I am also using JMRSS Mixing (recommended). My intention is clear: I would like that JRiver passes 2 channel DSD signal to the output as it is but in case of 6 channel signal to downmix it to a 2 channel. The later does not work and I get an error saying that my DAC does not support 6 channel output (which I know).
My question is: how to activate downmixing of the 6 channel DSD stream to a 2 channel DSD stream ?
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Set the Output Format for the Zone to 2xDSD in Native Format?
This is an old thread that I'm not going to read back through. Describe your environment here at least, or start a new thread and do so there.
Answer the question in my signature if they are relevant.
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Also worth noting that if you're bitstreaming DSD, downmixing won't work while bitstreaming either.
The best way around this that I can think of is to create a new zone and use the ZoneSwitch feature (which you can set it up to detect multichannel DSD content using something like [Compression]=[DSD] [Channels]=>2 for the search). From there set Output Format up like Rod mentioned above using Output Encoding set to whichever DSD option you want to use and set Channels set to 2. Do note that any conversion (which downmixing would be) goes through a PCM conversion step, so in that case it'd be DSD > PCM > DSD, and it's always a lossy conversion.
The alternatives would be letting MC convert the multichannel DSD content to PCM and playing that back (since it goes through a PCM conversion step anyways if doing the above) or just not playing back multichannel content completely to avoid this issue.
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These proposed solutions are not very practical. I would rather live with this error than to have to switch between different zones in the middle of the playlist. But if I understood it correctly, the claim is that in the case of DSD it is not possible to do any downmixing ... ?
By the way the environment is:
Windows 10 1909 (Build 18363.720)
MC26 - 56
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Can't downmix DSD without doing any conversions and it's not possible to downmix while bitstreaming DSD.
Using ZoneSwitch with a special zone setup for converting/downmixing multichannel DSD would make things easy and automatic. Like I said, the DSD conversion/downmix is a lossy conversion and it has to go through a PCM step regardless if you're converting DSD to DSD (so DSD > PCM > DSD) or DSD to PCM.
So it's up to you whether or not doing that would be worth it or not. If not it'd probably be best to avoid multichannel DSD content.
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If you aren't familiar with Zones in MC vs Zones in an AVR they aren't anything alike. I have a Bitstream Zone setup so that anything I have tagged as Atmos/DTS:X will bitstream so my AVR can decode them. Everything else (audio and video) plays through my "normal" Zone where everything is converted by MC and sent LPCM to the AVR. All switching is done automatically. What is mentioned above is basically the same but you will have a 2ch and a 6ch Zone setup and a Zone Switch rule on when to do the auto-switching.
Zones are more like groups of settings for outputs than different locations.
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I believe it is still the case that ZoneSwitch does not work in playlists.