INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => Media Center 17 => Topic started by: Matt on May 15, 2012, 09:25:40 am
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Media Center 17.0.152 added support for playback of SACD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD) ISO files.
[17.0.154 is now available at the top of this board]
When you import a SACD .iso file, it will expand to the individual tracks inside the SACD. You can play the tracks like any other tracks in your library.
The SACD ISO contains tags like album, artist, track names, etc. These values will be shown in your library.
Playback supports both regular output (PCM) and DSD bitstreaming.
To import a SACD, drag an .iso file from Explorer into Media Center.
There are a few limitations (this list may change with time):
- Only two channel ISO files are supported
- DST compressed ISO images are not playable
- Import requires drag-n-drop; import using auto-import is not yet supported
A special thanks to BigMac for his help on this.
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Matt - does this mean you have written your own ISO parser (albeit only for SACD ISO)?
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Matt - does this mean you have written your own ISO parser (albeit only for SACD ISO)?
Yes, but SACD ISO files are nothing like other ISO files.
We also have regular ISO building / parsing code for our burning engine.
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This build should be available in the next few days.
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Is it possible to convert those songs from the iso to flac to archive them?
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Is it possible to convert those songs from the iso to flac to archive them?
Using DSD for conversion, DLNA, handhelds, etc. is not fully supported. Someday it will be.
However, I wouldn't recommend converting the files to PCM anyway. As long as Media Center supports the files, there's really no quality or convenience to be gained.
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This is indeed awesome news! ;D ;D ;D
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The build is out now. It's at the top of this board.
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At the risk of asking what everyone else knows the answer to, as I don't have a DSD capable DAC, how do I setup the output of MC to accommodate a run-of-the-mill 24-96 or 24-192 DAC?
Currently, I'm getting error messages indicating that I need to change my hardware or output settings to play these files.
Thanks,
Joel
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Media Center will automatically convert DSD to PCM for output on any normal hardware. I personally think this is often the best solution, since it allows using volume and other processing.
You may have to set DSP Studio > Output Format to resample high sample rates like 384KHz to something your hardware will support.
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I have EMM Labs New DAC2X DAC which support DSD over USB by DoP 1.0. Now I can play either natively or converting to PCM format.
Thank you, JRiver Team. ;)
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That's very nice, but without DST it's kind of incomplete because some SACDs have stereo area compressed.
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It seems there is one issue. There is pause and play issue. Every track stop for one second and play again by the end of track.
Beside this, playable ISO plays very well.
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It seems there is one issue. There is pause and play issue. Every track stop for one second and play again by the end of track.
Beside this, playable ISO plays very well.
Do you mean there is no gapless playback?
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Do you mean there is no gapless playback?
No, it is little bit different than Gapless. It is like there is pop clicking noise. ?
I guess when DST compression play is ready, it will be also fixed.
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Coming next build:
NEW: Added SACD support for DST compressed tracks.
NEW: Added SACD support for multi-channel tracks.
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Coming next build:
NEW: Added SACD support for DST compressed tracks.
NEW: Added SACD support for multi-channel tracks.
Thanks. ;)
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Coming next build:
NEW: Added SACD support for DST compressed tracks.
NEW: Added SACD support for multi-channel tracks.
And SACD-R "plastic circlets" playback (like MC does for regular CDs) would be great to have too. Some people use PC and consumer SACD players interchangeably. Kind of ultimate solution...
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A few, probably very dumb, questions but:
1) You have to open Windows Explorer to drag the iso into MC ? Not possible from Drives & Devices > Explorer?
2) How do you keep a permanent entry in the Library ? Or is this not possible ?
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Do you have ISO files types enabled under Options > File Types > Data, and import configured to import Data > ISO file types?
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Coming next build:
NEW: Added SACD support for DST compressed tracks.
Does it mean that the next build will support DST compressed .dff tracks too?
It would be great!
Bye
Andrea
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Do you have ISO files types enabled under Options > File Types > Data, and import configured to import Data > ISO file types?
Do you mean that under File Types > File Association I have to set "Yes" for Disk Image Files ? If so, that doesn't work for me. If I set it to Yes, the next time I start MC it is reverted to No again.
And when I import Data > Iso, I can import the file in the Library but then it doesn't play when I drag it in MC from Windows Explorer. As soon as I delete it again from the Library and restart, I can drag it in again and it expands to all the tracks. In other words: As long as it is in the Library it doesn't play.
And finally: Does it only work when it is dragged and dropped from Windows Exlorer ?
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Meanwhile I think I figured out how to do it, including import in the Library, but I would like to know if this is also the right, simplest and recommended way.
I dragged and dropped the iso from Windows Explorer in the Playing Now window. It expands then to all the tracks. Then I select all tracks, right-click and choose Import To Library. Subsequently I get an entry in Library and next time, after restarting MC, I can play it from the library without having to import it again.
Is this indeed the right way ?
Thanks in advance
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Is this indeed the right way ?
Yes, that's perfect.
And I expect the import complications to get sorted out in the next couple weeks so this won't be necessary.
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Thanks.
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Hello everyone,
I have a very dumb question: how do I rip an SACD to iso? Do I need a special optical drive or can I do it with a regular cd/blu-ray drive?
Best regards,
Mikkel
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You need an old PS3. The drives aren't available for PC's.
You can find a link to an article at ComputerAudiophile.com here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Super_Audio_CD
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How about to support "DVD-Audio ISO" in future. :) ::)
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Coming next build:
NEW: Added SACD support for DST compressed tracks.
NEW: Added SACD support for multi-channel tracks.
Thannnk you so much.
I still use 2 differents player (foobar) because JRiver didn't do it before.
So impatient to test it !!
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Thank a lot for your efforts to implement the SACD ISO support in MC17.
However, there is something urgent to be resolved. At least it is critical to me... >:(
If you changing (renaming) the SACD ISO file name, MC17 (ver. 17.0.157) won't read the SACD ISO. The current MC17 can only read a SACD iso with the original file name that had been given during SACD ripping while Foobar has no problem at all.
I hope you can resolve this ASAP.
Thanks again for the SACD ISO support.
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If you changing (renaming) the SACD ISO file name, MC17 (ver. 17.0.157) won't read the SACD ISO. The current MC17 can only read a SACD iso with the original file name that had been given during SACD ripping while Foobar has no problem at all.
The name of the ISO should not matter. If you rename it, you will need to reimport it into Media Center by using drag-n-drop.
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The name of the ISO should not matter. If you rename it, you will need to re-import it into Media Center by using drag-n-drop.
Thanks Matt.
You are right. There is nothing wrong with MC17. The problem is my old libray structure(?).
Before MC17 supports the SACD ISO I imported all my ISO files as document and linked to the external player (Foobar) for my convenience. Once MC17 registered a file (in this case SACD ISO as document), MC17 cleverly remembers its category and keeps registering into the same category even though I delete the ISO in document and try to re-import into audio.
If I delete the old ISO in document and rename it before re-importing into audio, then MC17 recognizes as a brand-new ISO and successfully registers as SACD ISO audio file. This is a very time-consuming job. Is there any easy and fast way to reslove my problem? Or is it possible the old libray information just in document category?
Sorry for my fault and please help me... :)
Thanks in advance.
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You'll have to double-delete the old records.
Create a Smartlist with the rule: ~d=a
Use the search box to find the ISO files. Pick them and remove them from the library.
Refresh the Smartlist and the files will come back (they're now in the 'Removed' section of the database, which is normally hidden).
Remove them again.
Then import.
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Create a Smartlist with the rule: ~d=a
Thanks a lot, Matt.
I had some troubles with adding the rule you mentioned. I could not find the option like ~d=a.
At any way, I created a Smartlist with listing up all document (data) files with ISO extention.
I deleted twice... and it works. :)
Thanks again and have a nice day.
p.s. Are you gaoing to support the DVD-audio ISO playback near future like SACD ISO?
If you need a sample file I will let you have it via Mr. BigMac. :)
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Thank a lot for your efforts to implement the SACD ISO support in MC17.
However, there is something urgent to be resolved. At least it is critical to me... >:(
If you changing (renaming) the SACD ISO file name, MC17 (ver. 17.0.157) won't read the SACD ISO. The current MC17 can only read a SACD iso with the original file name that had been given during SACD ripping while Foobar has no problem at all.
I hope you can resolve this ASAP.
Thanks again for the SACD ISO support.
When did you downloaded 17.0.157? Latest I can see is 17.0.155.
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It will be public soon.
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I know your still working on the SACD portion and I love the support your giving to a small niche community. The SACD iso ripped directly from an SACD source is working great, especially after 17.0157. I am running into custom SACD iso problems.
These include SACD iso created from DVD-A, Reel to Reel, and iso combining multiple SACD sources, and probably a few more.
If someone from JRiver wants copies of some custom SACD iso for testing purpose send me a PM.
Thanks again for the SACD love.
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Does it mean that the next build will support DST compressed .dff tracks too?
It would be great!
Bye
Andrea
Hello, I've tried 17.0.160 build and I've seen that supports SACD .iso dst compressed tracks but DST compressed .dff tracks extracted from ISO are still not playable.
Do you think this feature will be implemented in the future? This would permit to save son much storage space!!
Thanks in advance
Bye
Andrea
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Thanks for this feature. It runs great except that I can not jump to a different part of a track. Scrobbeling makes the track start from the beginning.
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but DST compressed .dff tracks extracted from ISO are still not playable.
Could you provide a sample file to matt at jriver dot com?
Thanks.
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Could you provide a sample file to matt at jriver dot com?
Thanks.
In the next few days I think I'll be able to send you a sample file.
I really appreciate your support.
Thank you!
Andrea
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Hi, I have ISO that foobar plays without problems. When I dragged iso to the play-now window, MC17 displays a pop-up and I selected import. It then show 0 files imported w/o diagnostics. Is there a debug/logging option that I can turn on to see what's going on? I can provide sample ISO file if needed. Thanks.
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I can provide sample ISO file if needed.
Please do. I know they're huge, but having one that doesn't work really helps. I'm matt at jriver dot com.
Thanks.
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Did you set bitstreaming on? It's set under video options.
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format
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Could you provide a sample file to matt at jriver dot com?
Thanks.
In the next few days I think I'll be able to send you a sample file.
I really appreciate your support.
Thank you!
Andrea
I've sent the sample.
I hope you will have good news soon.
Thanks and bye
Andrea
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I've sent the sample.
Thanks. I'll download it tomorrow and let you know what I learn.
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You'll have to double-delete the old records.
Create a Smartlist with the rule: ~d=a
Use the search box to find the ISO files. Pick them and remove them from the library.
Refresh the Smartlist and the files will come back (they're now in the 'Removed' section of the database, which is normally hidden).
Remove them again.
Then import.
I imported most of my SACD iso files into Audio category with full tracks expanded following your instructions (double-delete). However, I failed to import several ISO files and they keep imported into Data category as before. :(
What should I do? Please Help...
Thanks...
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I imported most of my SACD iso files into Audio category with full tracks expanded following your instructions (double-delete). However, I failed to import several ISO files and they keep imported into Data category as before. :(
What should I do? Please Help...
Thanks...
Is there any way you could provide a sample of a SACD that won't import? Dropbox maybe?
Thanks.
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Is there any way you could provide a sample of a SACD that won't import? Dropbox maybe?
Because of the file size (about 3.25G) I made a Torrent file and sent it to you via email.
I hope you can download it using Torrent.
Thnaks.
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Because of the file size (about 3.25G) I made a Torrent file and sent it to you via email.
I hope you can download it using Torrent.
Torrent doesn't seem too happy. I've gotten 16kB in 30 minutes.
I think it only works when lots of people are hosting the file.
Would it be possible to using something like Sky drive, Google drive, etc.?
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Torrent doesn't seem too happy. I've gotten 16kB in 30 minutes.
I think it only works when lots of people are hosting the file.
Would it be possible to using something like Sky drive, Google drive, etc.?
In Korea, the speed should be somthing like 5~10 Mbps...
Any way, I deleted the torrent seeding and have just opened a ftp server.
I sent an email again with my ftp server info.
Go to http://filezilla-project.org/ to get the ftp client.
Good Luck...
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I've sent the sample.
I hope you will have good news soon.
As they say, the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from :)
Anyway, thanks for the DST compressed DFF file. Look for native support of that format next build.
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Also coming soon:
NEW: Added support for SACD .iso files that use large sectors.
Thanks to everyone that has provided samples.
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Quote from: rael71 on May 28, 2012, 01:53:42 pm
I've sent the sample.
I hope you will have good news soon.
As they say, the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from
Anyway, thanks for the DST compressed DFF file. Look for native support of that format next build.
Thank you!
Bye
Andrea
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Coming next build:
NEW: Added SACD support for DST compressed tracks.
NEW: Added SACD support for multi-channel tracks.
Seems like the support for SACD ISO multi-channel tracks isnt included the newest build? (17.0.165 (6/1/2012)) Or is there smth wrong on my end?
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Call to all PlayStation users or PlayStation newbies: Please take part in a thread about PS3 technics and firmware hints.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=72568.0
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[17.0.154 is now available at the top of this board]
At the top of this board? what does this mean? where does one actually download this version?
Thanks
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The most recent build is always in a thread near the top of this board.
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Hi
Is there a plan to support DSD bitstream playback of SACD ISO/DFF files through HDMI so that I can hook my PC to DENON AVC-3909 via HDMI and can enjoy DSD DIRECT MODE just like I do with OPPO BDP-93 and SACD disks? There are some AV receivers that can decode DSD bitsteam through HDMI, instead of converting DSD to PCM.
Cheers,
Masayk
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Hi
Is there a plan to support DSD bitstream playback of SACD ISO/DFF files through HDMI so that I can hook my PC to DENON AVC-3909 via HDMI and can enjoy DSD DIRECT MODE just like I do with OPPO BDP-93 and SACD disks? There are some AV receivers that can decode DSD bitsteam through HDMI, instead of converting DSD to PCM.
Cheers,
Masayk
IIRC this is a driver issue, so Intel/NVIDIA/AMD would need to support it at a driver level to make it work.
SBR
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Sry I missed this nfo before:
There are a few limitations (this list may change with time):
Only two channel ISO files are supported
Is there any progress with this? Is it very complicated so it will take a long time to fix it? Or maybe it even cant be fixed?
This and dvd-a support is all i need for my JRiver experience to be complete :-D
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I would like to know how do you manage the tag values in ISO files.
It seems they can't be saved directly in the ISO files ? Is that right ?
I'm asking this because I am currently ripping all my SACDs, which I extract in .dsf files. Since the tag values are sometimes incomplete or incorrect, I often have to make corrections in the tags (for example in the 'Genre' or 'Composer' fields), and I prefer to store the modified tag values directly in the files themselves, because I find this solution more "portable".
So for listening purpose, I store my .dsf files, with the modified tag values, but for archiving purpose, I also store all my .iso files (which I would need for example if some day I have a multi-channel setup, and want to also extract and tag the multichannel .dsf files)
It would be great if I could store the modified tag values directly inside the .iso files, because it would save a lot of disk space, but I suppose the ISO file format does not allow that ?
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Sry I missed this nfo before:
Is there any progress with this? Is it very complicated so it will take a long time to fix it? Or maybe it even cant be fixed?
Multi-channel ISO files should now work.
I only have a couple to test with, so feedback welcome.
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I would like to know how do you manage the tag values in ISO files.
It seems they can't be saved directly in the ISO files ? Is that right ?
ISO files often contain tags. We read them, but don't write them.
I'm asking this because I am currently ripping all my SACDs, which I extract in .dsf files. Since the tag values are sometimes incomplete or incorrect, I often have to make corrections in the tags (for example in the 'Genre' or 'Composer' fields), and I prefer to store the modified tag values directly in the files themselves, because I find this solution more "portable".
Good choice. JRiver reads and writes the ID3v2 tags inside of .dsf files.
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I would gladly help out with the development, for example by being part of the beta and/or upload files :-)
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I'm asking this because I am currently ripping all my SACDs, which I extract in .dsf files. Since the tag values are sometimes incomplete or incorrect, I often have to make corrections in the tags (for example in the 'Genre' or 'Composer' fields), and I prefer to store the modified tag values directly in the files themselves, because I find this solution more "portable".
Just a question, Rotho.
Which software do you use to extract .dsf files from SACD .iso?
The softwares I use extract .dff files and the I have to convert them in .dsf with audiogate.
I also have the problem that Audiogate doesn't support DST compressed files so I cannot convert Those compressed files in .DSF
Thanks and bye
Andrea
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Which software do you use to extract .dsf files from SACD .iso?
I use the sacd_extract command (http://code.google.com/p/sacd-ripper/downloads/list (http://code.google.com/p/sacd-ripper/downloads/list)).
Here is the syntax :
Usage: sacd_extract [options] [outfile]
-2, --2ch-tracks : Export two channel tracks (default)
-m, --mch-tracks : Export multi-channel tracks
-e, --output-dsdiff-em : output as Philips DSDIFF (Edit Master) file
-p, --output-dsdiff : output as Philips DSDIFF file
-s, --output-dsf : output as Sony DSF file
-I, --output-iso : output as RAW ISO
-c, --convert-dst : convert DST to DSD
-C, --export-cue : Export a CUE Sheet
-i, --input[=FILE] : set source and determine if "iso" image,
device or server (ex. -i192.168.1.10:2002)
-P, --print : display disc and track information
Help options:
-?, --help : Show this help message
--usage : Display brief usage message
I use the options -c -s to get the dsf files.
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Hello Matt, I have been testing playback of a few sacd iso's. The stereo portion seems to work well but the multichannel files have issues. I tested 3 different sacd iso's and found that all 3 caused media center to crash after the first 5 or so multichannel files. My settings are wasapi event output through hdmi with downsampling to 192 and my htpc uses intel i7 8 cores with 4G ram. The test iso's used were 1. Norah Jones - Come Away with Me 2. Al Di Meola - Consequence of Chaos 3. Beck - Sea Change. Also, is there any progress with improved import method of sacd iso?
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I use the sacd_extract command (http://code.google.com/p/sacd-ripper/downloads/list).
Here is the syntax :
Usage: sacd_extract [options] [outfile]
-2, --2ch-tracks : Export two channel tracks (default)
-m, --mch-tracks : Export multi-channel tracks
-e, --output-dsdiff-em : output as Philips DSDIFF (Edit Master) file
-p, --output-dsdiff : output as Philips DSDIFF file
-s, --output-dsf : output as Sony DSF file
-I, --output-iso : output as RAW ISO
-c, --convert-dst : convert DST to DSD
-C, --export-cue : Export a CUE Sheet
-i, --input[=FILE] : set source and determine if "iso" image,
device or server (ex. -i192.168.1.10:2002)
-P, --print : display disc and track information
Help options:
-?, --help : Show this help message
--usage : Display brief usage message
I use the options -c -s to get the dsf files.
Thank you!
I didn't know those command line switches; I tried them and now I can extract directly .dsf!!
Bye
Andrea
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I drag-n-drop SACD ISO file to "playing Now" but it won't play showing the message " The ASIO device 'ASIO4ALL v2' does not support the sample rate of 352800 Hz. Playback could not be started on the output 'ASIO' using the format 'DSD 2.8 Mhz 1 bit 2 ch'". I am using v17.0.165 MC and the output is set at ???96,000 Hz. My foobar has no problem playing SACD ISO files at all. I'd appreciate it much if some one can help me solve this problem
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*updated to version 165 today*
I can get the iso to be recognized but does not playback with my current setup.
With wasapi-style event output and Dsd selected in the video options, I still get nothing. With Dsd over PCM selected, same thing.
Any thoughts?
Is there a comprehensive setup article or something?
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*updated to version 165 today*
I can get the iso to be recognized but does not playback with my current setup.
With wasapi-style event output and Dsd selected in the video options, I still get nothing. With Dsd over PCM selected, same thing.
Any thoughts?
Is there a comprehensive setup article or something?
Have you tryed direct sound or wave out as audio output? Those works for me.
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Changed to Direct Sound and it worked.......too bad no wasapi output though.
Thanks!
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I drag-n-drop SACD ISO file to "playing Now" but it won't play showing the message " The ASIO device 'ASIO4ALL v2' does not support the sample rate of 352800 Hz. Playback could not be started on the output 'ASIO' using the format 'DSD 2.8 Mhz 1 bit 2 ch'". I am using v17.0.165 MC and the output is set at ???96,000 Hz. My foobar has no problem playing SACD ISO files at all. I'd appreciate it much if some one can help me solve this problem
In DSP Studio > Output Format, set > 192,000 Hz to output at 44,100 Hz (tune this later once you get it working).
Make sure all bitstreaming is off in Options > Video.
Finally, we don't recommend ASIO4All. It's just a wrapper of Kernel Streaming, so you're better off using Kernel Streaming directly. More on that here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes
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@Erik_Rohr, I think the same advice above will help you. In particular, turn off bitstreaming.
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Hi matt first congrats for your software, there is no media center but jriver that handle sacd!
I'm actually using foobar + sacd plugin to play my iso of sacd with an asus hdav1.3 deluxe soundcard and asio drivers.
I'm trying jriver because it's more friendly and I need the room correction.
so I've no problem with stereo sacd
but with multichannels sacd I can't have the same sound on the same speaker compare with foobar.
I tried asio offset and channel reordering with no success.
So is there a way to send a test signal to speakers in order to identify them ( as I can do with foobar and channel mapping)
or are you sure of your decoder engine for multichannel sacd??
thanks for considering this.
best regards
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so I've no problem with stereo sacd
but with multichannels sacd I can't have the same sound on the same speaker compare with foobar.
I tried asio offset and channel reordering with no success.
So is there a way to send a test signal to speakers in order to identify them ( as I can do with foobar and channel mapping)
or are you sure of your decoder engine for multichannel sacd??
Set DSP Studio > Output Format > Channels to 5.1 or 7.1 (whichever you have).
Play something simple like an MP3.
While that's playing, use DSP Studio > Room Correction to play a test tone to each speaker.
Use 'Order Channels' in DSP Studio > Parametric Equalizer 2 to adjust channel ordering until all speakers are correct.
You might start a new thread if you have more questions about this, and we'll try to help.
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Set DSP Studio > Output Format > Channels to 5.1 or 7.1 (whichever you have).
Play something simple like an MP3.
While that's playing, use DSP Studio > Room Correction to play a test tone to each speaker.
Use 'Order Channels' in DSP Studio > Parametric Equalizer 2 to adjust channel ordering until all speakers are correct.
You might start a new thread if you have more questions about this, and we'll try to help.
thank u for answering so fast !
I'll try that and let you now on a new thread
regards
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Is anybody else having problems with multichannel playback? Media Center will only play first 5 or 6 tracks of multichannel iso.
Edit: Issue fixed with update of JRiver MC 17, now just need 3 channel playback.
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Is anybody else having problems with multichannel playback? Media Center will only play first 5 or 6 tracks of multichannel iso.
Is there any way you could provide a sample ISO to matt at jriver dot com? Dropbox maybe?
Does it play with anything other programs?
Thanks.
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Thank you!
I didn't know those command line switches; I tried them and now I can extract directly .dsf!!
Bye
Andrea
Andrea, Hi. I am new to JRiver but a DSD ripping vet of sorts (I helped Mr Wicked beta test and roll out the ripper and extractor in the US). Anyway, I have a set of bat files (batch scripts, if you will) that will automate the extraction for a variety of options: DSF, DFF (stereo or multichannel), etc and the biggest advantage is that you can batch multiple ISO's with this, each to their own folder. No more typing command lines per ISO, etc. I've also written a pdf called SACD Ripping For Dummies. PM if you want a copy and/or the bat files.
Matt and gang,
This is VERY cool what you are doing with SACD support. I stumbled upon JRiver as a great DSF tagging tool while using Linux as my music server (MPD). However, I am now targeting building a dedicated Windows (CAPS V2-like) machine for multichannel DSD serving, using JRiver as the multichannel player.
Question(s):
1) I assume JRiver's implementation of DoP will work for multichannel (i.e USB or firewire to a DSD-capable DAC like the Mytek 8X192)
2) where would I do individual channel trims, and is that even possible with DSD (I'm assuming those trims must be done in analog)?
Thanks again. I've ripped my collection of 550+ SACD's so if you need any permutation for testing lemme know. And thanks to folks like BigMac for helping push this. I own the Meitner MA-1 (little non-ceramic brother to your DAC2X) and the Mytek, and love DSD playback. :)
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1) I assume JRiver's implementation of DoP will work for multichannel (i.e USB or firewire to a DSD-capable DAC like the Mytek 8X192)
DoP doesn't currently support more than 2 channels.
Just output PCM (no bitstreaming). It will sound great and solve your question #2.
2) where would I do individual channel trims, and is that even possible with DSD (I'm assuming those trims must be done in analog)?
For levels, use DSP Studio > Room Correction.
DSP Studio > Parametric Equalizer has a lot of tools that can work on individual channels as well.
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Matt, thanks but going to all the work of caring for the pristine DSD path only to "just output to PCM" doesn't do it for me. :) I will devise an analog trim at the back end. As for the vehicle, hmmmm.
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Hi Ted,
Good to see you here. Can't seem to get rid of you! I've been here since before MC supported the Mytek; I bought MC after they got it working for DoP. Matt et al have been remarkably responsive to my requests over the last few months!
However, I guess the solution to much of the issues might be to get ASIO and native DSD working for the Meitner and Mytek. So far as I know the only machine that native DSD ASIO without DoP works for is the Playback Designs machine.
Would love to have MC work with ASIO/native DSD though it might be a driver issue?
Yeang
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Matt, thanks but going to all the work of caring for the pristine DSD path only to "just output to PCM" doesn't do it for me. :)
This is just my two cents, but I don't think there's any need to feel this way.
SACD is good because it's a high quality version of music you like. But there's nothing magical about DSD as the final transport.
The conversion to PCM changes 1-bit 2.8 MHz to 64-bit 384 kHz. That's 8x the data, meaning you're not losing anything.
So I would do the processing digitally. It's going to be easier and sound better than anything you can cook up in the analog realm.
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Matt, thanks for the response. I know this is getting way off topic so I will try and summarize my feelings as simply: any DSD-to-PCM transfers I've listened to just don't sound right to me (at a max of 24/176k; I owned a couple of 32/384k DACs but it was moot due to the DACs' sonics). Bruce Brown (Puget Sound, does all HDtracks DSD conversions) is a friend, and I like and respect his work, but compared to native DSD the transfers don't hold up for me. But I realize there are tradeoffs later in the signal path (short of owning a Sonoma workstation) so it is what it is.
Again, thanks for pushing the envelope on DSD playback.
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Set DSP Studio > Output Format > Channels to 5.1 or 7.1 (whichever you have).
Play something simple like an MP3.
While that's playing, use DSP Studio > Room Correction to play a test tone to each speaker.
Use 'Order Channels' in DSP Studio > Parametric Equalizer 2 to adjust channel ordering until all speakers are correct.
You might start a new thread if you have more questions about this, and we'll try to help.
@matt
thank u it's working, it was not easy to reorder !
if you allow on more question why do I need to do that? aren't the channels recognise by JRiver?
As we use a DSP to do that is it still bitperfect? or is there any loss?
regards
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if you allow on more question why do I need to do that? aren't the channels regognise by JRiver?
There's no standard output order with ASIO. It seems to vary with each vendor, or worse in some cases like Creative where the default ASIO mapping is a total mess that requires complicated changes in the driver control panel to correct.
As we use a DSP to do that is it still bitperfect? or is there any loss?
Yes, it is. It only orders the channels. No changes are made to the data.
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Is anybody else having problems with multichannel playback? Media Center will only play first 5 or 6 tracks of multichannel iso.
have the same problem but
After the first install of jriver all tracks are played
If i close jriver and restart it perform some kind of installation (maybe an update) and then there is a "playback problem" after track 5 or 6
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Yes, it is. It only orders the channels. No changes are made to the data.
thank u matt
is it the same for room correction? lossless too?
forgive me for my questions i've just discover JR MC
anyway
I will set up everything and then consider buying it !
best regards
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have the same problem but
After the first install of jriver all tracks are played
If i close jriver and restart it perform some kind of installation (maybe an update) and then there is a "playback problem" after track 5 or 6
just one more thing about this
for example I have an album with 10 tracks, on the sacd I have 10 stereo tracks (from 1 to 10) and 10 multichannels tracks (from 11 to 20)
I can play the 10 stereo tracks, and for the multichannels only 4 tracks , from 11 to 14
when I try to play the next tracks I have the playback error
hope it helps
regards
edit
my mistake
it seems to be solved with the latest build...
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Thanks a lot, Matt.
I had some troubles with adding the rule you mentioned. I could not find the option like ~d=a.
At any way, I created a Smartlist with listing up all document (data) files with ISO extention.
I deleted twice... and it works. :)
Thanks again and have a nice day.
p.s. Are you gaoing to support the DVD-audio ISO playback near future like SACD ISO?
If you need a sample file I will let you have it via Mr. BigMac. :)
I have problem with importing some SACD iso too. I don't know how to create the rule ~d=a per Matt response or to create Smartlist with listing all documents (data) with ISO extensions. The pulldown menu in edit/create smartlist does not have document type nor iso extensions.
HELP!!!
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Another thing I noticed is that if the SACD iso's reside on an external drive, JRiver seems to lose the connection of where the files are on the system - whereas if the iso's are JUST on the harddrive of the CPU, its fine. Any thoughts?
........on a sidenote, its functionality at this point is pretty good and most importantly the sound is awesome, keep up the good work.
Erik
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My sacd iso's are stored on external drive and haven't had any problems. The only issue I still encounter is with 3 channel playback. Most classical and jazz sacd's have 3 channel files but JRiver MC won't play them. Hopefully a future update will fix the issue but other than that I am very pleased with sacd playback.
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My sacd iso's are stored on external drive and haven't had any problems. The only issue I still encounter is with 5 channel playback. Most classical and jazz sacd's have 5 channel files but JRiver MC won't play them. Hopefully a future update will fix the issue but other than that I am very pleased with sacd playback.
MAC or PC?
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I'm using a pc with Windows 7 64bit. It might be losing locations when your computer is restarted.
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Works fantastically for me. I rip my SACD's to iso use extract and store them as .dff in MC17 on my server. Had no problems whatsoever so far. Stereo and multichannel work great. They are sent in PCM 192/24 multichannel over HDMI right now to my Denon Amp.
If now we could trick on of the HDMI drivers from Asus, Intel, AMD or NVIDIA (as I gave up that one of these will tweak their driver in that direction) to output DSD bitstream over HDMI It would be the icing on the cake and my amp would be pleased
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Another thing I noticed is that if the SACD iso's reside on an external drive, JRiver seems to lose the connection of where the files are on the system - whereas if the iso's are JUST on the harddrive of the CPU, its fine. Any thoughts?
........on a sidenote, its functionality at this point is pretty good and most importantly the sound is awesome, keep up the good work.
Erik
I'm still having the issues with the "file path/file corruption". I am also using the same software for HTPC applications as well - it seems after I play a video and than try to initiate playback this is when this happens......After I restart the program everything plays fine, but I have to do that every single time after I play a video. I wonder if/when JRiver will start recognizing the iso's as part of its auto import function as opposed to having to drag/drop them into the library that would fix the problem......
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Matt, just out of curiosity is there no doable way (don't have this level of IT-knowledge) to force dsd bitstream out ?? or put another way only if amd/NV or Intel implement it in their hdmi audio driver it opens this gate. If the latter is the answer then I better stop hoping and will hunt for usb dsd capable multichannel DAC. what then is the pain is that this DAC should also be able to "digest" dts master hd and dolby true hd....but hey my denon 5308ci does all that...I just should be able to bitstream the dff's over to him.
Does everyone know of a piece of hardware which could do that ??
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Matt, just out of curiosity is there no doable way (don't have this level of IT-knowledge) to force dsd bitstream out ?? or put another way only if amd/NV or Intel implement it in their hdmi audio driver it opens this gate.
HDMI does not support DSD bitstreaming, and I think there's little chance of that changing soon.
But DSD-as-PCM sounds great. You can use that with any hardware, including HDMI.
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Matt, Thanks for the rapid answer. My Denon 5308ci is deemed to accept dsd over hdmi...but it sounds less good than through the proprietary denon-link. Without launching the endless debate of what sounds better dsd-pcm I tend to agree with you : currently I send multichannel 192/24 pcm into the denon and the results are really amazing. A million thanks to have thought about SACD and have it implemented so quickly !!!!
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HDMI does not support DSD bitstreaming, and I think there's little chance of that changing soon.
I think it does. A study of the HDMI specification 1.3 or later shows that HDMI can transport DSD or DST data This is an optional not required feature. If it is implemented then it has to support at a minimum DSD 64fs but the HDMI standard allows up to DSD 512fs rates over HDMI and up to 8 channels. In terms of the HDMI Handshake the device can advise/report DSD support, DST support and rate support (returned as the base frequency of 44.1 and the fs multiplier) in the SHort Audio Descriptor field of the EDID
"A Source may transmit One Bit Audio at an fS (1/64th of the bit rate) of 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz,88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz or 192kHz. Any Source capable of supporting One Bit Audio should support an fS of 44.1kHz, corresponding to a bit rate of 2.8224MHz.Transmitted One Bit Audio shall have an audio sample rate within ±1000 ppm of the targeted sample rate. A Sink may accept One Bit Audio at an fS (1/64th of the bit rate) of 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz or 192kHz. Any Sink capable of supporting One Bit Audio shallsupport an fS of 44.1kHz, corresponding to a bit rate of 2.8224MHz."
Just an observation. Your reliance on users to supply ISO files suggests that you don't have an extensive library of DSD data at your disposal and a restricted experience with DSD (not Analog tape->DSD or PCM->DSD, DXD->DSD). Native DSD (record->mix->master) recordings especially those which are stereo/simply miked, unmixed, live to DSD recorder through a good Analog to DSD converter like the Grimm AD-1 converter are in a different class than similarly sourced analog captured by PCM. However these are an audiophile niche and popular music listeners need not be concerned on missing out.
Pulse width modulation is not architecturally the same thing as pulse code modulation when it comes to capturing analog. Delta-sigma DACS and DSP type operations in software may effectively.practically obliterate differences between DSD and PCM in the digital domain but the ability of DSD to initially represent/capture the analog signal is superior to PCM, in the area of impulse response especially and micro dynamics like attack and decay. Multichannel listening is a different kettle of fish however. Room correction (time and frequency adjustements), for now, are best done in high bit rate PCM until such time as CPU/DSP power allows SDM/DSD equivalents. DSD's benefits are further multiplied once you start to raise the sample rate. As others have suggested, on revealing systems in competent rooms DSD transcoded to PCM is a discernible sonic degradation compared to DSD left untouched on its way back to analog. This aural distinction is clearer with DSD originated sources as above but less so where the recorded source was PCM which has undergone PCM->DSD->PCM manipulations
(http://www.picciafuochi.com/dsd-pcm-impulse-response.gif)
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I think it does. A study of the HDMI specification 1.3 or later shows that HDMI can transport DSD or DST data
Interesting. I (obviously) did not know that.
Is there any HDMI hardware on a computer (video card, DAC, etc.) that would accept DSD?
on revealing systems in competent rooms DSD transcoded to PCM is a discernible sonic degradation compared to DSD left untouched on its way back to analog
I've heard people argue both sides. Conceptually I don't see how DSD could contain anything that the converted PCM @ 352kHz could not contain.
Are there double-blind tests that substantiate the claim that you can hear the difference? It would be a fun thing to try to test.
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I've heard people argue both sides. Conceptually I don't see how DSD could contain anything that the converted PCM @ 352kHz could not contain.
Are there double-blind tests that substantiate the claim that you can hear the difference? It would be a fun thing to try to test.
Prior to getting DSD-capable DACs (Meitner and Mytek to name 2) I had converted quite a few of my DSD folders (I've ripped hundreds of SACDs) to 24/352k or 24/176k. Once I heard them in native DSD, especially those that were recorded and mastered in native DSD (about 30% of all 7000 SACD's out there) there was no comparison. I'd love to do a double blind. I feel I could guess 100% of the time. This is not to say 24/192 or greater PCM isn't wonderful...it is..it's simply to say do not convert DSD to PCM without being willing to live with the sonic consequences (and frankly, the other way around too. :) I'd much rather have the PCM masters than the PCM-based SACDs that are out there ).
And yes, there are dozens of HDMI-capable AVRs and pre/pros that accept, from capable SACD and universal players, DSD over HDMI (i.e have the ability to not convert to PCM automatically). DSP things like bass management are disabled, however.
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Absolutely. For me the problem is the following. I use two denons an 5308ci amp and a dvda1udci. I listened to pure SACD's through the denon-link. Quality is just fantastic. and i would also think I could find ou blindly if my denon gets fed with dsd directly or with PCM. For HD music I use a LINN Akurate which goes analog to the amp.
Now for the htpc (dvd-bluray mostly live concerts) & sacd's i can bitstream the dvd's and the bd's but sacd through hdmi bitstream is a no go. I understand that this is dependant on the hdmi audio driver (nv/amd or intel) used and that the hurdle is there.
I saw some DAC with dsd support but these are for the moment all 2-channel DACS. What about multichannel sacd's....and should i abandon the pretty good DA quality of my denon for a only-2channel DAC how would i go for BD and DVD (Actually i?m unaware if in river it would be feasible to play SACD automatically through DAC 1 while BD and DVD would still bitstream through hdmi
Actually I'm very glad and thankfull of the SACD support in MC17...(made me buy MC and switch my whole home server concept over to JRiver) but multichannel PCM even if at 24/192 is the best I can get with my actual setup and the hdmi-no-dsd-bitstreaming limitation.
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This is all very technical for a regular guy to understand, and I completely appreciate the thought process and hard work involved in getting DSD to work as best as possible in MC. I love how it works now - drag the ISO into MC and done. It would be greatt if MC would just scan and pick it up like any othr FLAC file in the library. Now, I don't have (yet) a DSD capable DAC as my Krell pre amp's DAC tops out at 24/192. I will purchase soon a DSD capable DAC, so the learning curve is kinda steep right now. I guess this is the only thing keeping me from going out and buying one right now. I don't know how this will end up and I'm just waiting to see how all this will get resolved. But I gotta say that DSD downsampled to 24/192 sounds pretty darn good from my listening chair!! ;D
Thanks for your hard work guys.
Jimmy
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Hi,
Finally, I managed to get a sacd ISO file from a friend.
"drag & drop" the file into the "Now playing' and true it expands to multi music files.
But when I "import to library", i can't seem to find the files...
Am I suppose to see this file physically...?
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"drag & drop" the file into the "Now playing' and true it expands to multi music files.
But when I "import to library", i can't seem to find the files...
Currently you have to import with drag-n-drop.
Import with the regular import tool will be supported in the future.
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I've tried to import (drag-n-drop) a couple of SACD ISOs and they played flawlessly.
The strange thing is the album file size reported at the bottom of the "tracks" view: it looks like that the displayed album size
is the result of the ISO size multiplied by the number of tracks. This happens for both discs so that each album weights several
tens of Gigabytes while the real ISO size only few GB. It is a minor problem but this makes difficult to quickly evaluate the total disk space
used by the disc collection, at least from MC.
Am I doing something wrong?
Thanks.
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Hi Matt,
thanks for the response, but think you misunderstood my question..
I was following the steps by Ton, after the drap & drop of the file...see bold text
Can't see to find where the library, I have not setup the library so it must be at the default location...
Basically was attempting to play from my library so that, like Ton Mentioned .. I don't have to drap & drop every time I wanted to play a iso file.
Meanwhile I think I figured out how to do it, including import in the Library, but I would like to know if this is also the right, simplest and recommended way.
I dragged and dropped the iso from Windows Explorer in the Playing Now window. It expands then to all the tracks. Then I select all tracks, right-click and choose Import To Library. Subsequently I get an entry in Library and next time, after restarting MC, I can play it from the library without having to import it again.
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Hello,
I imported my SACD ISOs from my local hard drive just fine. But now I all my library to an external hard drive. And when I try to drag and drop the SACD ISO into the Now Playing section, it doesn't expand into the individual tracks. It only shows the single iso filename and when I try to "play" it, the roxio software opens up.
When I try doing it from the local hard drive, it does it just fine as its supposed to.
Don't understand.....
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Update
I created a new library with some files stored locally on my laptop. Now this is what happens:
In Main library, all my files are in an external hard drive. In that case, I can only import the ISO file using drag n' drop from the local hard drive in my laptop. If I try from the external harddrive, it only imports the iso file itself and not the individual tracks. If you try to play it, it opens roxio to burn the iso image.
When I switch to the Laptop Library, everything is backwards. I can only import using drag n' drop from the external harddrive. If I try with the local hard drive, it does the same as above.
Has someone had this happen? What could be happening?
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I figured it out!!
I had the ISO file inside the Album artist folder. I just removed the ISO from the music folder and put it in a SACD ISO folder and drag n dropped from there.
So Now I have Media\Music as the main music folder but also have Media\SACD_ISOs for the SACD ISOs and all is fine now!!
Hope this info helps those who can't import their SACDs
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that is a strange behavior
I have 2 computers with MC installed
My sacd are on a folder E:\sacd, and my flac music is on E:\music
on one computer I can have my library with both flac and sacd (with drag&drop) on the other I can't
I must put the sacd into E:\music if I want to drag&drop them
very strange!!!
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SACD iso is great.
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Now for the htpc (dvd-bluray mostly live concerts) & sacd's i can bitstream the dvd's and the bd's but sacd through hdmi bitstream is a no go. I understand that this is dependant on the hdmi audio driver (nv/amd or intel) used and that the hurdle is there.
Actually I'm very glad and thankfull of the SACD support in MC17...(made me buy MC and switch my whole home server concept over to JRiver) but multichannel PCM even if at 24/192 is the best I can get with my actual setup and the hdmi-no-dsd-bitstreaming limitation.
Have you had any problems or has anyone else with multi-channel playback? When I try to playback with multi-channel, it plays for a brief moment and then starts buffering. Two channel playback is just fine with no such problem.
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Have you had any problems or has anyone else with multi-channel playback? When I try to playback with multi-channel, it plays for a brief moment and then starts buffering. Two channel playback is just fine with no such problem.
No I had no issues with multchannel SACD's at all. I would just love to find out a way to bitstream the dsd audio over hdmi rather than sending PCM multichannel 192/24 over HDMI.
BTW I do stream the files (ie are not local but on server-wired gigabit lan). when I press play MC buffers (approx 3-4sec) and then it's just playing steady all the way through.
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No I had no issues with multchannel SACD's at all. I would just love to find out a way to bitstream the dsd audio over hdmi rather than sending PCM multichannel 192/24 over HDMI.
BTW I do stream the files (ie are not local but on server-wired gigabit lan). when I press play MC buffers (approx 3-4sec) and then it's just playing steady all the way through.
What type of hardware are you using? Your PC? At least one other person is having similar issues. I am wondering if it's a hardware issue on my end.
Also when JRiver converts dsd at 64/384 it applies a roll off at 30khz because of the noise in SACD. Is this 30khz roll off applied when you pass 24/192 with b5.1 out via HDMI?
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Regular DIY HTPC, core i3, 2130 /AsRock Z77-mini-ITX / AMD 6570 (catalyst 12.6)/ 8GB RAM-1600 / Win 7 64bit. Reduced bitrate output settings in DSP : over 192 to 192. The Amp is a denon 5308 ci(a)...connected through HDMI. I Use WASAPI event style or direct sound.
Source files are stored in dsf format (after extraction from the iso).
Cannot tell re 30khz...where could I check that ? I assume it happens as it is a default setting in the downconversion from either 64bit @ 352.8 kHz or 64bit @ 705.6 to 24bit @ 192 by MC.
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Regular DIY HTPC, core i3, 2130 /AsRock Z77-mini-ITX / AMD 6570 (catalyst 12.6)/ 8GB RAM-1600 / Win 7 64bit. Reduced bitrate output settings in DSP : over 192 to 192. The Amp is a denon 5308 ci(a)...connected through HDMI. I Use WASAPI event style or direct sound.
Source files are stored in dsf format (after extraction from the iso).
Cannot tell re 30khz...where could I check that ? I assume it happens as it is a default setting in the downconversion from either 64bit @ 352.8 kHz or 64bit @ 705.6 to 24bit @ 192 by MC.
Thanks. I assume everything is 30khz as that's the default but not sure. Matt?
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Another thing I noticed is that if the SACD iso's reside on an external drive, JRiver seems to lose the connection of where the files are on the system - whereas if the iso's are JUST on the harddrive of the CPU, its fine. Any thoughts?
........on a sidenote, its functionality at this point is pretty good and most importantly the sound is awesome, keep up the good work.
Erik
I seemed to have solved this issue......when I have "Memory Play" selected in the audio settings, that appears to cause this issue. So I de-selected it and VOILA, problem gone.
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Source files are stored in dsf format (after extraction from the iso).
Cannot tell re 30khz...where could I check that ? I assume it happens as it is a default setting in the downconversion from either 64bit @ 352.8 kHz or 64bit @ 705.6 to 24bit @ 192 by MC.
Ok, I can play multichannel dsf files with no problem. I just do not have enough CPU power to play them from the iso files without extracting them first. Who can do that? Play multichannel directly from the iso files with no extraction to dsd or dsf first?
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Meanwhile I think I figured out how to do it, including import in the Library, but I would like to know if this is also the right, simplest and recommended way.
I dragged and dropped the iso from Windows Explorer in the Playing Now window. It expands then to all the tracks. Then I select all tracks, right-click and choose Import To Library. Subsequently I get an entry in Library and next time, after restarting MC, I can play it from the library without having to import it again.
Is this indeed the right way ?
Thanks in advance
I'm doing this as above. The iso files will unpack and play. I right click and click import. Subsequently, I see only the first track in the Library, and can't play the other tracks. If I try the drag and drop again the file also doesn't play. The only way I get the file to play again is by deleting it from the HD, and then recopying it to the HD. At this point the "drag and drop" method works again. But only for one time.
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I've tried to import (drag-n-drop) a couple of SACD ISOs and they played flawlessly.
The strange thing is the album file size reported at the bottom of the "tracks" view: it looks like that the displayed album size
is the result of the ISO size multiplied by the number of tracks. This happens for both discs so that each album weights several
tens of Gigabytes while the real ISO size only few GB. It is a minor problem but this makes difficult to quickly evaluate the total disk space
used by the disc collection, at least from MC.
Am I doing something wrong?
Thanks.
I am having the same problem, Skogkatt is having... I have about 20 SACD and the total size displayed in the botton of the tracks view of all the SACD I got is more than 1 tera... however the size should be about 3GB for each SACD... is it OK?
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wonderful to see that SACD ISO support was added to this fine HTPC player!!!!
is there any update on the HDMI DSD bitstream playback idea? Is there a way it could be added to the app, then the onus is on people who own various HDMI 1.2+ cards to get THEIR hardware drivers updated/modded to allow for DSD bitsream in windows?
Sadly I'm not an expert and I don't have time to research to know what I'm talking about with the matter any more than what I just summarised :-P.
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Any update on playing SACD ISOs with MC version 18 ?
Any comment on reproducing multi-channel SACD audio ?
Thanks in anticipation !
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Any update on playing SACD ISOs with MC version 18 ?
Any comment on reproducing multi-channel SACD audio ?
Both should already work great in MC18.
If you have a problem, just report it as a bug in a new thread.
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Hi Matt et al.
I can play sacd iso with JRiver 18 by a few methods but I have some problem as below:
1. in Theatre view, I can see the sio files with song list and can play, however some iso files when play it needs buffering a lot, so stop start play while buffering. This only happens to a few iso files, most other files are played smoothly.
2. In Window Explorer, I click iso file and open with JRiver default. Then in Window Explorer double click iso it will open JR to play. But if JR already opens, it doesn't work. If I want to play another iso file I have to close JR, then open the other iso from WE again. The buffering issue is the same with those files above.
3. From WE, drag and drop iso into Playing Now window of JR: sometimes it works, sometimes not.
My question 1: does JR20 fix the problem, if so I will upgrade to JR20 from JR18. If not, what can I do to avoid buffering too long?
Question 2: I convert iso to dsd by using the jave sacd2dsd where I select convert DSF to DSD, does converted dsd file have similar quality as iso or is quality compromised?
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ok I must be dumb. You said it's at the top of the board, but scrolling all the way up, I don't see anything to download.
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ok I must be dumb. You said it's at the top of the board, but scrolling all the way up, I don't see anything to download.
This is the version 17 board, but we're on MC 21 now. So download that.