INTERACT FORUM
Devices => JRiver Id -- Hardware by JRiver => Topic started by: JimH on March 05, 2014, 03:16:42 pm
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We're probably going to introduce a hardware product this year. I'd like to ask you for your reaction.
[Edit June 15, 2014 -- We're shipping it now. The name changed to JRiver Id. Here's a new thread:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=89084.0 ]
One possibility is an audiophile digital media player based on the Intel NUC 2820 (http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/nuc/nuc-board-dn2820fykh.html), which can be purchased at retail for a little over $250 (with memory and small SSD). jmone reviewed it on Interact recently (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87617.0).
Ours would be this NUC plus Linux (probably Debian) plus JRiver Media Center for Linux, configured to be used as a DLNA Renderer, and possible to configure and use without a monitor. It would probably sell for $395.
The initial version would be audio only because that's what MC on Linux does now. Eventually, it might be upgradable to also play video and images.
Advantages over other DLNA Renderers:
1. Higher quality audio
2. JRiver reliability and bug fixes
3. JRiver's remote control options (for Android and iOS)
4. A device that could be repurposed if needed
Is this interesting?
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I have actually been considering a NUC as something to use for a Media Center client.
However, I would want Windows on it so that I can use it for video playback (with madVR) and from reading around, it seems like they can get quite noisy when used for demanding tasks like that.
I also have concerns about whether it would be capable of DSD playback. (conversion to PCM rather than bitstreaming)
$400 seems an awful lot simply for a DLNA audio renderer, especially as it will just be a "transport" for a DAC, without having a high quality audio output of its own.
If this was a custom box with a display and hardware controls (something like the old Squeezebox devices) I would be more interested.
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I also think it would be a hard sell given all the ~$100 boxes that can be DLNA renderers (including video) which also include many of the online services (Netflix, etc.).
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Is it a linux box that is shipped with jriver or a locked down jriver appliance?
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As an all-in-one HTPC with video support?
HECK YES.
As audio only? Sorry bub.
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As an all-in-one HTPC with video support?
HECK YES.
As audio only? Sorry bub.
Pretty much the same response from me. When I saw Linux, I got excited because it would be great as an MC server, but renderer only, audio only, $400 is too steep. It also seems like a waste of the power of the NUC. You might eb better of selling cheap Android tabs preconfigured with Gizmo, and developing a way to push audio to Gizmo as a zone.
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I might pay in that range for JRiver software supporting encrypted DLNA (DTCP-IP?) so I could dump my cablecard TiVo for something from SiliconDust...
-tm
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I also think it would be a hard sell given all the ~$100 boxes that can be DLNA renderers (including video) which also include many of the online services (Netflix, etc.).
We haven't found a DLNA Renderer that works all the time on all file types.
They're also not audiophile quality.
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Advantages over other DLNA Renderers:
1. Higher quality audio
2. JRiver reliability and bug fixes
3. A device that could be repurposed if needed
Is this interesting?
VERY interesting to me.
Although I would want a top notch audio digital output in SPDIF or BNC. If you are thinking it would be akin to a SqueezeBox with it's digital output quality, I could see it moving.
If it could do 1080 video without a hitch (like my WDTV) I would be able to replace my WDTV and HTPC for something like this. Run it headless with JRemote, and repurpose my HTPC as my server.
Regarding your comment above, what renderers are you referring to that this would best.
Thanks,
Patrick
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Is it a linux box that is shipped with jriver or a locked down jriver appliance?
A Linux box with JRiver. Not locked down.
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As an all-in-one HTPC with video support?
HECK YES.
As audio only? Sorry bub.
The Linux version of MC doesn't do video yet. That's the obstacle.
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The Linux version of MC doesn't do video yet. That's the obstacle.
I get it. Just answering. ;)
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I agree - good value prop if MC had Video working on Linux. Not so much with just audio. The other option is to sell it with windows but I don't know how much the OEM Win version would push the price up.
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If it can do video, it certainly gets a lot more interesting, though if it's Linux-based I would assume we should expect EVR (Red October Standard) quality video rather than madVR (ROHQ) quality video.
I'm guessing that the plan would be to use Linux for a couple of reasons:
- No licensing fees.
- Far more stable as an "appliance" with less to go wrong or support (and people are less likely to try and use it "as a PC")
Looking over jmone's review, I see that it has a JRmark score of 1014 - I thought ~2000 was the recommended minimum for stereo DSD playback? (and it won't cope with multichannel at all)
But I suppose I'm not the intended market, as I would be more likely to buy a NUC and a fanless enclosure and set it up myself, or build a small form-factor PC than this.
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You do see users here from time to time purely wanting an audio only deal, because they ask how to disable the view tree from showing video and other items they don't want. So there is a market, it's just a question of how big.
It would help your assessment if MC could log and report usage patterns in an optional and up front way, so you've got your ethical bases covered. As long as this didn't come at a significant cpu overhead, it wouldn't get user performance complaint. Then with a question like this you could put the word out for users to submit their usage reports similar to the meta data and cover art process. You'd get better quality of feedback than a shout out and it would be easier than a survey. Too many of those turning up in inboxes as it is... just thinking out loud.
For myself, I would echo the thoughts of glynor and jmone.
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An OEM windows licence would set you back ~$50 as a FWIW.
Now onto the more interesting part-
For something like this to be interesting to me, it needs it's own screen and basic controls.
A VFD is fine, but I need a way to see what's playing, and operate basic player controls (Play/ Pause, skip) without going into Android apps etc.
As a video player, you can get away with a remote & no screen, but not as an audio player :)
-Leezer-
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I use Gizmo a lot for playback. The playback information is on the remote. I can see why you might expect it on the playback device, but it's a small mind shift required.
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It's 8 no's (72%) and 3 maybe's right now. I predict it will finish with two thirds maybe's.
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I added a maybe, but that maybe is only in the future. My current setup works pretty well for current needs, and $400 is a lot for purchasing on a whim to see how well a setup works. When we finally get our "library" room finished though, it might need some sweet audio streamed to it...
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Even down the track, if it becomes available with video, is thing going to be powerful enough to do on-the-fly video transcoding for DLNA?
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Any video conversion occurs on the server. The DLNA Renderer just decodes the video stream.
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Given the apparent cost expectations, for an audio only offering, cheap and cheerful appears to be a common line. The cheap hardware option that comes to my mind is via ARM architecture CPU based computing. Something like this:
http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox (http://www.solid-run.com/products/cubox)
http://cubox-i.com/table/ (http://cubox-i.com/table/)
(http://cubox-i.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/CuBox-i-Block-Diagram-1170x874.png)
From what I can make out these things can run with Android, which brings this discussion back to the surface:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=79567.0 (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=79567.0)
or Linux. Here's a blog post from a guy who clean installed Debian Wheezy on a Cubox:
http://gwolf.org/content/cubox-i4pro (http://gwolf.org/content/cubox-i4pro)
I'd think if you're not going to worry about displays, then keep going down the same path and don't carry the $ overhead that comes with an Intel hardware platform (even if a NUC is pretty cheap).
For people like me who really don't want to have to mess with learning a whole lot of command line language, I'd consider a deal in a 2 inch cube pre-loaded and ready to literally "rock and roll" out of the box to a bit-perfect audio standard assured by JRiver. You would really be adding value by providing a convenience factor for a fair proportion of the audio discerning user population who aren't IT wizzes.
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We haven't found a DLNA Renderer that works all the time on all file types.
They're also not audiophile quality.
You can just convert/transcode to WAV to solve the file type problem (and you also get volume leveling that way). And won't this just have HDMI and digital optical outputs which is what most of the cheap boxes (renderers) have too? What will this have that is more "audiophile quality"?
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What will this have that is more "audiophile quality"?
It would be MC, with MC's DSPs and Audio Output configuration, that could directly access MC's Library just like any other client. It would work as a DLNA client too, of course, since MC does, but in a household with other installations of MC, I imagine it would be even more capable.
That said...
I think, perhaps, Jim, you'd do better to take the exact same idea, and reframe it at a MC Server-in-a-Box.
If you can set it up so that all the user has to do is plug it into their network, plug in a big USB3 hard drive, and it Just Works to import and share your media out? Like a File Transporter (http://www.filetransporter.com/why-transporter/#transporter-sync), optimized for all of your media use.
And, of course, if it happened to be on your AV Rack near your amp? So much the better.
I get that there is a deficit in the DLNA market. There is, but I don't know that the play works for that cost. But I think solving the "your media, wherever you are" problem? Yeah, people will pay for that.
But, it has to be consumer-electronics-easy, or close enough.
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It would be MC, with MC's DSPs and Audio Output configuration, that could directly access MC's Library just like any other client. It would work as a DLNA client too, of course, since MC does, but in a household with other installations of MC, I imagine it would be even more capable.
I would consider that an "MC Library Client" rather than a "DLNA Renderer". Even then the DSPs would mainly be important with analog audio output (since your AVR would most likely process the digital output) and I think most "audiophiles" would consider the built-in analog outputs on motherboards pretty poor.
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I think it is a good idea, but you're asking the wrong forum for two reasons:
- readers are already sold to MC, skewed audience...
- few of the readers would buy, they already have JR where they think it is important to.
Find an audiophile forum to poll (and place a few links to good "audiophile" reviews you had).
Audio only, good idea.
AV, great idea ! But you need Linux video, as Windows is both too expensive AND high maintenance if unlocked.
You may even offer at profit optional turnkey solution bundles with
- Logitech K400 or similar keyboard and JRiver remote
- Harmony remotes, low and higher costs. People would pay for that integration.
I know it is a great solution, as two of our TVs are JRiver NUC driven ;D
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The great thing is that it's Linux-based, so we can just install XBMC and use that for videos alongside JRiver for audio until videos are supported.
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I'm with JimH's concept. My NUC is for a portable MC install (rather than a full blown HTPC) that I will control either with a RC or Gizmo pending the application I've got for it at the time. I'm setting up a 16th Birthday where I'm taking the NUC coupled to a PJ and an outside screen so the teenagers can then use Gizmo to push playlists (music and video however) to it.
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I would consider that an "MC Library Client" rather than a "DLNA Renderer".
Yes. Jim said that. It would be both.
It would be MC, built for you, on Linux. That would certainly include both a MC Library Client and a DLNA Renderer. You can do this now, they'd just be doing it for you.
Even then the DSPs would mainly be important with analog audio output (since your AVR would most likely process the digital output)
I disagree. Why would your AVR do all of the processing?
I use MC for most of my processing, because it does a better job, and is far more flexible. I send my AVR PCM via HDMI. About the only thing my AVR does is Room Correction, because setting up MC's Room Correction is too complex. If it had a simpler system, I'd use that too.
I'm not sure how that plays in, technically. It is actually better than your AVR, in almost all ways, if you have an AVR.
That said... That's certainly a big part of why I'd argue that a value proposition here for many targeted consumers is not a sure thing. Its essentially selling the part of the AVR that does all of the "stuff", less the amp, HDMI switch, and DAC stages. It'd do network streaming like an AVR, do file format decoding like an AVR, etc, etc, and send out multichannel PCM. That's pretty cool, as it allows you to use whatever amp and DAC stages you want.
But the problem is that, in all but the highest end markets, you're not going to be able to buy an amp and DAC for a reasonable price in order to "recoup" the cost of the JRiver Audio Box. You're going to end up buying an AVR (like I did) and then not using any of those features and using it like a glorified HDMI switch and decoder (which is what I do, and I almost never change the HDMI switch from port one), which makes your average consumer feel like that money is wasted (even if the AVR software, interface, and often hardware asics are all terrible, as they often are).
I feel like if you want to sell at that high-end, where people will already have and want their own hand-picked discreet power amps, that they're going to want a high-quality, well-supported, integrated DAC to go with it.
Now, perhaps if JRiver had some kind of partnership with a DAC vendor (or better, a handful) where you could buy USB DAC X and plug it in and it would Just Work, they'd have something. I don't know, but I'm guessing that Linux drivers for those DACs are an even bigger crap-show than they are on Windows and OSX (which is bad), though, so I'm not sure how realistic that is of a target...
Without that, you're selling a $400 powerful pre-amp and processor, but I'm not sure there's a big enough market.
That's why I think you position it as both this, and a file-server for your home. Then, you get two potential classes of consumers. But, it would take some work to make that Storage configuration possible on a headless box, and reliable with a variety of USB storage devices on Linux.
I think it could work quite well, though. You plug it in. Plug in a USB drive (which can be anything from a WD My Book type drive, up to a big RAID-in-a-box thing with a USB port on it). It creates a SMB share and plunks it on the network, sets up MC to auto-import anything on the share, runs both the Library Server and the DLNA server, and lets you plug in a nice device via HDMI if you have one nearby. It lets you use Gizmo and JRemote out of the box (just gives you the access key via that web UI I was talking about), and if you open the port on your router, you can stream the stuff on the road too.
The storage and serving part is a substantial stumbling block for a LARGE class of potential JRiver customers. People would like to have this stuff, but setting up the storage and server aspect (leaving that PC on all the time, and maintaining it) is a big part of the issue. If JRiver could help solve that problem, even somewhat simply... You don't have to try to do the whole FreeNAS thing (though why not use ZFS if you're building it as a Linux box anyway), but it should help people like my friends who come over and see my setup and WANT it, get it, with this plus a 3TB USB drive or two, and a little Intel brick.
Again, I think Video is an even better value proposition (especially if it does all of the above too), but without it? I'm not sure it works at all, and I'm reasonably sure it doesn't work at any kind of volume without a better message, and some more thought. Of course, it depends on what scale they're trying to achieve too... So, meh?
All I can really say is... I wouldn't be interested without quality video support and Theater View, and I'm not sure I'd recommend it to my Dad either. But, the biggest reason is I've already built all of the above, but I'm a capable sysad. If it could solve more problems than just receiving and playing media stored elsewhere... Then maybe you'd have something pretty special, and worth $400-$500.
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That's why I think you position it as both this, and a file-server for your home. Then, you get two potential classes of consumers. But, it would take some work to make that Storage configuration possible on a headless box, and reliable with a variety of USB storage devices on Linux.
There's no point surely in duplicating what, say, Synology have done who've already got the storage thing on headless servers with an amazing and well-developed UI and a complete package-management system, sewn up. JRiver should be concentrating on the audio engineering.
Of course, you know what I'm going to say!
I think it could work quite well, though. You plug it in. Plug in a USB drive (which can be anything from a WD My Book type drive, up to a big RAID-in-a-box thing with a USB port on it). It creates a SMB share and plunks it on the network, sets up MC to auto-import anything on the share, runs both the Library Server and the DLNA server, and lets you plug in a nice device via HDMI if you have one nearby. It lets you use Gizmo and JRemote out of the box (just gives you the access key via that web UI I was talking about), and if you open the port on your router, you can stream the stuff on the road too.
Doesn't this describe a NAS, with MC installed on it?
There are indeed two different appliances/markets/products here - a HTPC client, and a central database server. I think this Synapse is basically meant to be a HTPC client, something small and convenient and high quality to be used at the point of media consumption. But there are many capable devices out there already that can do this. The advantages stated:
1. Higher quality audio
2. JRiver reliability and bug fixes
3. JRiver's remote control options (for Android and iOS)
4. A device that could be repurposed if needed
Are all possible right now, with an MC server coupled with a DLNA renderer and/or DAC. The oft-requested ability to use DSP and other audio processing across DLNA, if it ever gets implemented, sort of scuppers the "higher quality audio" argument.
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For those talking about a Server product, this is the format that got me going a few years ago (was based on WHS) - a tranquil SQA-5H (I even had the extra 5 Bay add on). It was a great small format server but the big downside is the low spec'ed CPU's make for a terrible video server if transcoding is needed (eg Gizmo clients).... just not enough grunt. In my case it turned out just adding bays to the main PC was way better.
(http://www.dabs.com/images/product/uni2/DigitalContent/7g/7GKM_EF093714-3AF8-4AC0-BC21-E975782FBBEB_large.jpg)
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I am a definite "no" on this one...
Reason is that I don't live in USA, and sorry to say it but I doubt JR has the competency (or interest) to build, deliver, or support non US boxes...
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I knew I was going to love being in the hardware business.
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I use Gizmo a lot for playback. The playback information is on the remote. I can see why you might expect it on the playback device, but it's a small mind shift required.
Personally, I hate using touchscreen devices as a remote.- You have to unlock the device and wait for an app to load and connect before you can control anything.
- You have to look at a screen to control anything.
- It's easy to hit the wrong thing by accident.
- It's a multi-functional device so it may be in use when you want to control playback. (e.g. wife is reading a book on it)
- It's another point of failure - now you have three devices talking to each other instead of two.
- I've paid $400 for the audio receiver, now I need to buy a tablet?
- Why not just use a docked tablet as the media player? Then you have control and playback in one device.
I knew I was going to love being in the hardware business.
I know that it's not something you are likely to pursue, and probably not even something there is really a market for, but I would pay at least a couple of hundred dollars for a physical remote if it was done right. As far as I can see, everything on the market is crap.
Apple and Sony are the only companies that seem to know how to build a good remote, but neither of them are programmable and capable of controlling other devices.
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I knew I was going to love being in the hardware business.
Twice the fun, lol!
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I knew I was going to love being in the hardware business.
On a personal note, I would advise you to really think carefully about stepping into the hardware business. You have spent many years of your life building up a company that is highly skilled, entrepreneurial and at the top of its game in software. There is an understandable tendency for entrepreneurs to get lured by the big bucks of selling boxes versus selling software. But be aware that you would be starting again from scratch as a new player in such a business. Today you may be seeing the lure of the big bucks on your top line, but do be aware of the risks of being hit by big bucks on your expense line, that you may not have foreseen. (Just think of shipping, warranty, returns, repairs, etc. as just a few topics that you currently don't have in your current business model...)
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Personally, I hate using touchscreen devices as a remote...
Two different use-cases I think. A touch device is perfect when you want to use your system remotely or headless and love flicking through your album covers and borwsing visually, you can also browse while your HTPC is playing video. Not so good for instant access to volume control, fast-forward/rewind and pause. I find a remote control awkward to use for browsing, a tablet is much more intuitive and direct. A touchscreen remote isn't really a remote, it's a mobile version of the desktop app. (Apart from the apps that emulate remote controls that is!) To that end, I'd love an IR or RF remote control that just had simple transport and volume controls to work alongside the tablet, but most PC remotes seem to have dozens of incredibly tiny buttons so you can't really use them without looking.
Multi-device remote controls are a pain to use too, with modes to select and remembering which buttons do what.
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I disagree. Why would your AVR do all of the processing?
I use MC for most of my processing, because it does a better job, and is far more flexible. I send my AVR PCM via HDMI. About the only thing my AVR does is Room Correction, because setting up MC's Room Correction is too complex. If it had a simpler system, I'd use that too.
I'm not sure how that plays in, technically. It is actually better than your AVR, in almost all ways, if you have an AVR.
This seems like an uncommon use case. If you prefer MC's processing it seems like one would typically just buy a multi-channel analog amp since most claim it is a "better" amp than that in an AVR anyways. Personally, along with the auto EQ and room correction that you mentioned, my AVR has all the adjustments I need and I can make most of them on the fly with a remote control and an on screen display.
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This seems like an uncommon use case. If you prefer MC's processing it seems like one would typically just buy a multi-channel analog amp since most claim it is a "better" amp than that in an AVR anyways. Personally, along with the auto EQ and room correction that you mentioned, my AVR has all the adjustments I need and I can make most of them on the fly with a remote control and an on screen display.
I'm now using MC in the way Glynor describes! I prefer MC's fake-surround processing of music over Dolby Pro-Logic or DTS that my AVR would do, so I take multichannel output from MC into my AVR's external decoder inputs, however an AVR is required because my TV and BR player output to it, i.e. a decoder is required in it and therefore an analogue amp won't do.
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This seems like an uncommon use case. If you prefer MC's processing it seems like one would typically just buy a multi-channel analog amp since most claim it is a "better" amp than that in an AVR anyways. Personally, along with the auto EQ and room correction that you mentioned, my AVR has all the adjustments I need and I can make most of them on the fly with a remote control and an on screen display.
Most analog outputs from a PC are not very high quality - I would not want to spend a lot of money on a multichannel amplifier and run audio out from the PC into one of them.
An AVR is the ideal solution - a DAC and multichannel amplifier in one box, so the quality of the PC's analog output doesn't matter.
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This seems like an uncommon use case. If you prefer MC's processing it seems like one would typically just buy a multi-channel analog amp since most claim it is a "better" amp than that in an AVR anyways. Personally, along with the auto EQ and room correction that you mentioned, my AVR has all the adjustments I need and I can make most of them on the fly with a remote control and an on screen display.
I use my AVR the same way, most processing is in MC. The advantage over a multi-channel AMP is that I also get a decent DAC in the AVR without buying an expensive sound card.
I would actually wish for a simpler setup without HDMI, but alas there are no proper digital connections available to do it which also support up to 8 channel 192/24 (maybe a USB DAC could, but 8ch at decent quality sounds pricey), and analog requires a good sound card...
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I use my AVR the same way, most processing is in MC. The advantage over a multi-channel AMP is that I also get a decent DAC in the AVR without buying an expensive sound card.
I would actually wish for a simpler setup without HDMI, but alas there are no proper digital connections available to do it which also support up to 8 channel 192/24 (maybe a USB DAC could, but 8ch at decent quality sounds pricey), and analog requires a good sound card...
Pioneer now have an AVR which will function as a USB DAC. Unfortunately it's their highest-priced model, but hopefully this becomes a trend and something which other manufacturers adopt, and incorporate into lower-end AVRs as well.
Considering that no PC will output DSD over HDMI, it would be nice to see DSD-capable AVRs add USB support for native multichannel DSD playback.
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Most analog outputs from a PC are not very high quality - I would not want to spend a lot of money on a multichannel amplifier and run audio out from the PC into one of them.
An AVR is the ideal solution - a DAC and multichannel amplifier in one box, so the quality of the PC's analog output doesn't matter.
This was my original point: if you are going to tout this as "audiophile quality" and cater this towards audiophiles, you probably should include high-quality analog outputs since HDMI won't really distinguish it from the cheap DLNA networked boxes.
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On a personal note, I would advise you to really think carefully about stepping into the hardware business. You have spent many years of your life building up a company that is highly skilled, entrepreneurial and at the top of its game in software. There is an understandable tendency for entrepreneurs to get lured by the big bucks of selling boxes versus selling software. But be aware that you would be starting again from scratch as a new player in such a business. Today you may be seeing the lure of the big bucks on your top line, but do be aware of the risks of being hit by big bucks on your expense line, that you may not have foreseen. (Just think of shipping, warranty, returns, repairs, etc. as just a few topics that you currently don't have in your current business model...)
I'll start a thread on the beta board to explain our thinking.
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Depends on what you mean by pricey. There are currently nice 8 channel 192/24 USB DACs floating around in the $700-$800 range. Emotiva makes a pretty nice 7 channel standalone amp for $500.
Out of interest, could you give a couple of examples? Just tried Googling but it didn't really turn up anythign of relevance, at kleast not here in UK.
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Rather than head in this direction, my vote would be to focus more development effort on the Mac and Linux products you already have. At the current development pace, they are several years away from being considered full featured products similar to the Windows version.
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Rather than head in this direction, my vote would be to focus more development effort on the Mac and Linux products you already have. At the current development pace, they are several years away from being considered full featured products similar to the Windows version.
+1. I continue to read a lot of negatives on other forums about how far behind the Mac (and Linux) versions are compared to the Windows version of MC.
If it were me - once all three versions are on the same footing - and have the same level of stability - only then would I then consider a move in a new realm such as this.
VP
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One of the reasons we did a Linux port was to offer complete hardware solutions.
In any case, this thread is about the proposed hardware. Discussion of JRiver priorities could go in another thread.
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One of the reasons we did a Linux port was to offer complete hardware solutions. In any case, this thread is about the proposed hardware. Discussion of JRiver priorities could go in another thread.
Understood. To stay on topic - my response would be no - for many of the reasons already stated.
I think I spent about 400 on my HTPC and it does everything a good MC box should do - and does it all very well.
Cheers,
VP
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(1) Would this work with JRemote?
(2) Would this be compatible with a Windows-compatible NAS on the same network?
(3) Support for DSD DoP protocol equivalent to what is offered on Windows version?
I had been considering a MacMini (Win or Mac OS) but this might be an option if the 2014 refresh is just vaporware.
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Pricey DAC's split (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87913.0)
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There's no point surely in duplicating what, say, Synology have done who've already got the storage thing on headless servers with an amazing and well-developed UI and a complete package-management system, sewn up.
To be clear, I wasn't talking about trying to compete with a multi-disk RAID enclosure NAS style device, like those from Synology. I was talking about a way to make having an online media Library in MC easy to obtain and set up, alongside the other benefits.
I was talking about the need most people have, which is to attach one, or two, external USB disks to give them 2-4TB of storage online. More like competing with the NAS-ified USB ports they stick on routers nowadays (and which, by the way, do a terrible job at it (http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/02/dear-asus-router-user-youve-been-pwned-thanks-to-easily-exploited-flaw/)). Now, I certainly realize that Synology and the other similar vendors make more modest systems, but I'm really talking about one more value add to the suggested "base", not a "I want to be the best NAS for everyone" product.
A lot like the File Transporter Sync I linked to earlier, but that can do really high-quality audio as well.
As I said before... I think this is a much easier sell if it has Theater View and Video support, without all the storage stuff I suggested, so maybe really working on that for v20 is time better spent.
It just wouldn't have much value for me, as described, that's all I can really say for sure.
I should also add... One thing you have to be concerned with in any case is security. These appliance devices are now becoming the prime targets for attacks. As PCs have become tougher and tougher targets, often it is these "smart" devices (routers, home automation appliances, and media streaming devices) that are being increasingly targeted.
And, most of the competition in this space is also terrible at that job (in addition to being terrible at software).
I think there's potential here. A good central kernel of an idea. I'm just not sure you've nailed it quite yet.
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We're probably going to introduce a hardware product this year. I'd like to ask you for your reaction.
Ours would be this NUC plus Linux (probably Debian) plus JRiver Media Center for Linux, configured to be used as a DLNA Renderer, and possible to configure and use without a monitor. It would probably sell for $395.
The initial version would be audio only because that's what MC on Linux does now. Eventually, it might be upgradable to also play video and images.
Is this interesting?
Nope, I can't think of any reason to buy such a limited device at this price.
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I think there's potential here. A good central kernel of an idea. I'm just not sure you've nailed it quite yet.
I agree with just about almost everything Glynor has posted in this thread so I'm just posting to add my vote with his views without a long write-up.
FWIW, I have Synology/QNAP NAS machines set up and have been considering getting a standalone mini PC like the NUC here or the Zotac posted in http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87759.0 to install JRiver.
So yes, a full solution for the Media Center will interest me. A pure audio-only solution would not. [I connect it straight the the horrific TV Speakers. LOL]
It kinda short-changes JRiver, JRiver isn't just the best audiophile software solution anymore. It has become the best media solution [admittedly my biased opinion] out there. I would never have considered a standalone PC for other products out there in the past, but JRiver's worth it.
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Absolutely. If it is a high performance unit with best playback in mind. Unless you want to go cheap and then rationalize why something better isn't necessary. Or, if you have the knowledge to build your own....
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Would this be something that would be able to play gapless over DLNA or other streaming?
If it does then that would be something that would/could differentiate it from the competition. Gapless playback as a feature is a biggie for me. Because of the types of music I like and how I like to listen to it (as full albums, not as playlist tracks). I'm not sure how big if a deal breaker gapless support is for others, but for me it's a biggie.
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If we control both sides, we can make gapless work.
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If we control both sides, we can make gapless work.
This statement applies for MC in any case regardless of whether or not the actual PC hardware would be purchased from JRiver...
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I would also not go for this kind of hardware.
In my opinion if JRiver wants to go hardware you should make "JRiver tweaked components". I'm maybe dreaming aloud as I don't know how hard it is to team up with "big-weights" or, what exactly licensing restrictions allows you to do or not, but I would more appreciate to see for example :
- a graphic card which is tweaked exclusively for HTPC use with perfect(!) refresh rates and/or exceptional components
- a hdmi audio (only) card
- an add-on soundcard (ie pass-through aka auzentech or xonar who would allow for DSD over HDMI bitstreaming.
- any hardware which would allow for more hi-fi like builds (why not a special case aka origen M10/M7) with an LCD working perfectly with JRiver - I mean format logo lighting up if you play DSD etc... (the case could be branded - actually If I'm not mistaking NAIM uses a special proprietary edition of the M10).
- on the software-side even if I remember Jim already stated his "not-interested"...I would love to see driver and add-ons allowing for better integration of a JRiver Machine into global remote systems aka RTI, crestron or AMX
Just my five cents
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Well, audiophile world is picky, but 400-500 will not scare them if implemented right. Even an ugly and limited SimAudio Mind still selling for $1200!
AURALiC soon will release Aries Streamer - http://www.stereophile.com/content/auralic-aries-music-streamer for $999.
Will new product be able to match up? Excluding "looks" ))
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It's 8 no's (72%) and 3 maybe's right now. I predict it will finish with two thirds maybe's.
I was wrong. No's are 64% now.
So about 1/3 of our customers might be interested.
Many of our users already use an HTPC for this purpose. In the wide, wide world, the percentage of people who use HTPC's is probably under 10%.
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HDMI Split (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87934.0)
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Audiophiles are a tricky market. You probably won't get a computeraudiophile.com type endorsement with the NUC because the unit has a fan that makes noise. So, while 400 is not expensive in that world, you might not hit the market because the unit doesn't match the prevailing views in that world (players need to be silent, no moving parts, plus dubious claims like great power supply makes a difference etc.)
For the rest of us, it's a bit pricey for audio. For $400 I'd build a low power HTPC with video capabilities. Or buy a 60 dollar network Blu Ray. Or get a chromecast for $35 bucks. Or a longer cable to reach the stereo for $20 dollars. The streaming market has changed a lot in the past year and its just cheaper to get in the door.
So you might consider shooting higher, or shooting lower. Here's two examples of opposite ends of that spectrum, a bundled JRiver package on either would be very interesting:
http://volumio.org/discover/ (custom linux os based on raspberry pi computer at about 60 bucks)
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/497-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-zuma/ (Silent i3 fanless audio server at $1500 bucks)
Good luck and thanks for including us in the conversation!
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Here you have your bundled JRiver package: http://www.baetisaudio.com/index.php
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I use JRiver for Cataloging and Browsing. I haven't found anything better. I used to have a HTPC but moved to a server in the office and streaming devices in the living room. Dune Player for Movies and Squeezebox Touch for Music. Zero maintenance and no big noisy box...
If this hardware was off the shelf with no mods to eliminate "noise" then I wouldn't buy it. However, I would be all over something like this running JRiver. I could once again have the power of JRiver/JRemote controlling playback.
http://www.sonore.us/SOtM1.html
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I think a hardware device is an excellent idea. However, it would have to include video for me to go ahead and purchase one.
Currently, I have 5 wdtv live units in my home. While they work great, I am unable to get the full benefit of Theatre View or access sidecar files using this system. A JRiver media center which allowed full access to video and audio capabilities associated with the MC software would be a perfect solution and would hopefully negate the need for an HTPC.
I would buy 1 (with video) for sure.
Looking forward to hearing more about this.
Dave
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totally. give me WDTV capabilities with SqueezeBox Touch digital output quality via SPDIF and I would buy 3.
if it had video via HDMI i would help you sell them for free.
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Yes I very much would consider a DLNA renderer. In fact I'd pretty much buy it onsight, as long as it was silent, worked with MC and JRemote, and fed my Benchmark DAC2 HGC - presumably by USB. In fact can I have one now. :)
Don't care about HDMI. But not interested if it has a fan.
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Discussion of fans split (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88019.0).
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I would seriously consider this with HD video output. Thus, I checked the "Maybe" box.
However, I have a question or two, mostly about its necessity in my own setup.
I recently stripped down my desktop PC in the interest of having it function primarily as an HTPC (though, being a desktop machine that was originally built to be an entry-level gaming PC, it's still a bit bloated for my taste). I have two zones set up: one in my room, corresponding to a Logitech Z-5500 5.1 surround system--to which the PC is connected via optical S/PDIF--and one in a separate room, corresponding to a Marantz SR5008 A/V receiver--to which the PC is connected via roughly 60 feet of HDMI and to my router via 80+ feet of CAT5E. A custom-assembled 7.1 system is connected to the A/V receiver in turn. The latter outputs the best-sounding audio I've ever experienced, especially when Audyssey is taken into account (bear it in mind, though, that I am still very new and inexperienced in the world of audiophilia). Save when I am using my PlayStation 3 or other device also connected to the A/V receiver, MC is, of course, the application that sees the most use in both zones.
All of my media files are stored in about 14TB worth of HDD's, enclosed in a small external RAID controller (four bays; NOT NAS), and connected to the PC via USB 3.0.
Would/should this Synapse box replace or streamline any of that? Or would this be either redundant, or a downgrade from the setup I already have? I don't understand much about devices designed specifically to function as DLNA renderers, and DAC's, and whatnot, and how they compete in the world of home theatre.
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I split LIV Wave to a new thread. I'll move it to the Hardware board later.
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Not sure why my prior post didn't show.
Any chance that you'll use the Intel NUC with Thunderbolt? That'd be ideal for those of us who might want local storage by Thunderbolt while using the USB for the DAC. No bus interference, higher speed transfers -- what's not to like?
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Is this interesting?
I would only be interested if it also did film/video in which case the NUC specs might not be good enough.
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I would vote 'maybe'. I have a rather simple view compared to many of the posts here. What I would like to see is a complete solution for all the things that JRiver promises.
- Audiophile quality audio
- Media Center capabilities for video and images
- JRemote and Gizmo capabilities as at present
- HDMI for video and audio
Right now I use my PC as a server and stream music to my AVR via DLNA functionality. My AVR, as I think is the case with practically all of them, is not capable of rendering video or images (audio only). So I am using an older WDTV player with an external HD to play movies, videos, and photos through my AVR to my TV. The WDTV has an abysmal UI and I would love to have everything in one device with the great JRiver UI on my iPad.
A turnkey solution for non sysads would easily be worth $400 to me. I think I would prefer Windows to Linux unless JRiver winds up providing support for the Linux aspects because I don't want to learn anything about Linux at this point in my life.
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Returning to this topic two weeks later is interesting, as a couple of things have happened since.
1. I bought another television - a small 32" Panasonic which was reasonably cheap. (and puts out a surprisingly nice picture)
This has WiFi and a DLNA renderer built in. I didn't have a chance to test it with Media Center and see if it worked well for images or videos, but it seems that most displays even at the lower end of things are coming with DLNA support built in now.
2. A family member wanted to get a "streaming box" as they put it, so I had to do some research into this. They ended up with a box from their ISP that cost $16 (a rebranded Roku) and supports all the major streaming services here. (Netflix, Spotify etc.)
Apparently you can also install Plex on this thing too - can a Plex client stream from Media Center? (I'm not familiar with it)
Now this box is obviously not an "audiophile" product (though it does output everything over HDMI) but for an extremely low price, this now does everything they wanted from an audio and video perspective, and will stream from a PC via Plex. (or possibly MC)
$400 seems a lot for a DLNA renderer - especially if it's only doing audio.
The NUC hardware does not have audiophile credentials in my opinion - the analog output is certainly not audiophile quality.
The only digital audio output is HDMI - no S/PDIF connection.
The device has a fan which is, again, not something an audiophile would accept. (if all you're doing is PCM playback, it would probably be unlikely to spin up to audible levels though)
The device is not going to be fast enough to support DSD playback other than bitstreaming.
If it was custom hardware in a fanless enclosure (or utilizing a "silent" fan such as Noctuas) which was capable of DSD conversion, and offered S/PDIF and multichannel analog audio in addition to HDMI, then I think you start to have an exciting product. But you probably don't have something which costs $400 either..
I think going down the route of some low-power ARM device like that CuBox-i (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=87884.msg602155#msg602155) which can do stereo, S/PDIF and HDMI seems like it might be the best solution as a client.
Edit: looks like the CuBox-i will only do S/PDIF or HDMI, not analog audio. But there seem to be a million similar ARM devices, so I'm sure that something will offer the outputs you want.
Any chance that you'll use the Intel NUC with Thunderbolt? That'd be ideal for those of us who might want local storage by Thunderbolt while using the USB for the DAC. No bus interference, higher speed transfers -- what's not to like?
I don't think any of the current generation NUCs have a Thunderbolt port on them, only DisplayPort.
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The WDTV has an abysmal UI and I would love to have everything in one device with the great JRiver UI on my iPad.
You can do this with your setup right now. You're using the iPad to send music via DLNA to the AVR, you can also use it to send music, video and images to the WDTV. Assuming that the WDTV can handle the file formats you've got and, if not, that MC will be able to transcode.
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FYI, Thunderbolt is available on some NUC builds
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/desktop-kit-dc3217by.html (http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/desktop-kit-dc3217by.html)
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FYI, Thunderbolt is available on some NUC builds
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/desktop-kit-dc3217by.html (http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/desktop-kit-dc3217by.html)
Yes - this is not a current product though. I don't think any of the Haswell NUCs (that one is Ivy Bridge) have Thunderbolt ports. It was dropped in favor of DisplayPort to save costs because adoption of Thunderbolt is so low.
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You can do this with your setup right now. You're using the iPad to send music via DLNA to the AVR, you can also use it to send music, video and images to the WDTV. Assuming that the WDTV can handle the file formats you've got and, if not, that MC will be able to transcode.
Yup!!!
There isn't any video that my WDTV Live wont play. It outputs DD 5.1 to my AVR via spdif, so I am assuming it can at least play 24/96 audio. I wouldn't be surprised if it can push 24/192.
I dont use mine for audio but I can check it tonight.
-Patrick
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1) Maybe, but likely not. I voted yes because the question said "would you consider."
2) If it did video, without a doubt.
I bought the beta Mac version thinking that the beta phase of it would be taken closer to the windows version. You're now a full rev in and there's still no progress in the video realm. I didn't buy into the Linux beta for that reason (or Mac MC19). I have 2 linux servers, 3 linux based NAS's, 2 mac books and 1 windows computer in my household. To put that in context, I'd buy a Mac Mini for ~$600 and put J River on it to replace my current Windows HTPC. So would I buy a $400 Linux box to replace instead? In a heartbeat... $500 if it did video, likely. $600? Maybe not.
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ECS LIVA + USB DAC = a lot of bang for the buck.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ecs+liva&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&channel=fflb
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ECS LIVA + USB DAC = a lot of bang for the buck.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ecs+liva&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&channel=fflb
I thought of this topic as soon as I saw it announced, but I think people would expect analog audio outputs.
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I know that it's not something you are likely to pursue, and probably not even something there is really a market for, but I would pay at least a couple of hundred dollars for a physical remote if it was done right. As far as I can see, everything on the market is crap.
Apple and Sony are the only companies that seem to know how to build a good remote, but neither of them are programmable and capable of controlling other devices.
That is not my experience. Harmony remotes have served us well over many years now in a fairly complex home cinema environment. If we have been let down, it has been by hardware manufacturers who tend to ignore the existence of programmable remotes.
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I thought of this topic as soon as I saw it announced, but I think people would expect analog audio outputs.
Well, you have the option to get analog audio out from the LIVA in lots of ways.
- Either by the built in 3,5mm analog output. Probably only worth it on cheaper hifisystems or "computerspeakers". And cheap headphones.
- Second alternative is adding one of all the available minute USB-stick DACS like the Audioquest DragonFly or M2Tech Hiface DAC, or just slightly larger physically Meridian Explorer, any HRT, nuForce and so on.
- Then again you could go all in and let the LIVA drive a high end DAC also.
- And finally, why not use the HDMI to let a integrated amp with hdmi in/outs do the output or possibly use future high end HDMI based DACS.
I like the idea of the LIVA as a really really inexpensive (small and fanless :D ) MC-based DLNA renderer (and control point if you have a tv/monitor).
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I voted maybe. I am getting into high res and dsd so I do not believe the current spec is going to cut it but hopefully there are plans to add support for better spec. Couple of other things that are critical for me no dependencies on the X, if the system is head less there needs to be option to configure JRiver and external drives that is easy to use. For folks comfortable in Linux it might not be difficult but for larger population it might better to provide web based management system similar to home routers and JRiver. I am also hoping that the Linux version will support video over the next 6 months or so.
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We have the NUC running Debian Linux and JRiver Media Center now. It's acting as a DLNA Renderer, so it shows up on the network and I can play APE files to it from a Windows PC.
Bob had to remove the hard drive and install the "Testing" build of Debian Wheezy on another PC.
Here's a picture of the patient (upside down).
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Is DSP studio implemented in the Linux MC? More specifically the parametric eq that can be set separately on left and right channels.
And if so, is the eq taxing on (slow) hardware?
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I brought the device home this afternoon. There was a lot of fumbling around on my part since I hadn't asked Bob any questions.
It's running Debian Linux and a copy of JRiver Media Center. It needed a keyboard to boot and I needed a display to see what it was doing.
Then it took about an hour to get it to show up in MC. I asked Bob a few questions via text message, but nothing seemed to work. What did work, finally, was to plug the other end of the little yellow network cable into the back of the NUC. Embarrassing. Really embarrassing. In my defense, I did get one end of it right.
Now it shows up under Playing Now on my Win8 notebook, and I'm playing AIDA to it. Triumph.
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Moving it to a new location, connecting _all_ the cables, and booting took 6 or 7 minutes. Finding it in MC and playing to it took another 2 or 3 minutes. This time with a keyboard, but no display.
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Then it took about an hour to get it to show up in MC. I asked Bob a few questions via text message, but nothing seemed to work. What did work, finally, was to plug the other end of the little yellow network cable into the back of the NUC. Embarrassing. Really embarrassing. In my defense, I did get one end of it right.
;D
Been there.
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Gizmo can play to it now from our phones and tablets.
Simple. Choose Server (source of music, one of the PC's running MC). Choose Where to Play (destination, the device). The device shows up as a destination choice, just by putting it on the network and turning it on.
It is silent from a foot away, and it runs cool. It's not warm at all to the touch.
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It's a regular wheezy install with our kernel build to get the HDMI audio working in addition to the analog and digital.
Need to get the NUC boot manager out of the picture and the configuration parameters doable remotely.
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any chance of coax digital audio output?
thanks,
Patrick
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any chance of coax digital audio output?
thanks,
Patrick
From this info from Intel:
http://ark.intel.com/compare/78953,71484,74483,71275,71274,76977,76978,71620,76975,74484,76976,71286,68308 (http://ark.intel.com/compare/78953,71484,74483,71275,71274,76977,76978,71620,76975,74484,76976,71286,68308)
the answer is no with what's on the shelf (happy to be corrected though).
For selected NUC boards, you do get this Intel High Definition Audio Specification (http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/standards/standards-high-def-audio-specs-general-technology.html) via HDMI or Display Port (depending on the hardware spec).
I'd expect many audiophiles would be looking for Coax S/PDIF Out from a renderer. If it's not there, then it's another exercise in hardware gymnastics.
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For digital out, you would need to use HDMI or USB.
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Here's the back of the device.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B41e27AZP7dTWVlRX0dNTXhZTlU/edit?usp=sharing
On the left is the power cord. On the right is an 1/8 inch stereo jack for analog sound out.
Two USB (one more on the front of the case), HDMI, and network.
The black slot at the top is for ventilation.
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For digital out, you would need to use HDMI or USB.
Bummer... That puts it out of the running for me unfortunately. Why have HDMI only when it doesn't even run video? Unless it can run as a server???
-Patrick
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HDMI is excellent for audio. I know that some audiophiles don't agree.
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it's not an audiophile thing. High-end DACs tend to have spdif. HDMI is non-existent outside of the multi-channel AVR world. No big deal. You are marketing this to other another demographic.
Cheers!
Patrick
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HDMI and S/PDIF aren't ideal for DACs. Both have problems with clocking (and jitter). If you are looking for a high quality, well engineered audio solution, you need an interface that has the master clock on the DAC.
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Hi Jim,
I am very interested in highest-quality audio. YES, I would consider it strongly. I have tried some of the current high-end renderers, and many are annoyingly buggy. Compared to what you propose, they are two, three, or four times the price. It's hard to see why something so relatively simple should cost so much.
For me, the following would be MUSTS:
- Must work with a standard DLNA control point. Of the ones I've tried for Android, BubblePnP has been the best for quite a while.
- Must support gapless playback flawlessly, along with pause and resume, seek within track, etc.
- Must have S/PDIF or AES-EBU digital out at up to 192/24. I would be less inclined to buy something with only USB out, as many excellent older DACs don't accept USB. Almost no audiophile DACs have HDMI inputs.
- It must be SILENT. No fan, no transformer hum, and so on.
- Must support Ethernet. Wifi is optional.
It would be great to see a true audiophile product at a reasonable price.
Mike
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HDMI and S/PDIF aren't ideal for DACs. Both have problems with clocking (and jitter). If you are looking for a high quality, well engineered audio solution, you need an interface that has the master clock on the DAC.
There are no absolutes with respect to the best DAC configurations.
http://www.naimaudio.com/sites/default/files/products/downloads/files/naim_dac_august_2009.pdf
I am fine without a USB DAC. Just fine.
-p
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They're also not audiophile quality.
apologies if going over old ground.......for me, a no vote. the devil here is in the word "audiophile" ...I would be expecting something more along a CAPS server design if it is marketed as playing audiophile quality music ( whether rendering or serving music it still has to play audiophile quality). Your audiophiles will want better attention to power (emi noise) isolation and clocking with attention to the implementations for usb and coax/optical spdif (or aes/ebu) digital interfaces. This is not a subjectivist/objectivist debate , just a marketing one. Your videophiles are going to want more grunt for madvr rendering. Maybe pitching it as a bit perfect media player ? But I would rather have a cheaper dlna renderer and tweak any incompatibilities...or just re-purpose an old laptop (with windows)... where audiophile quality is not required.
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Yes please. Provided you will ship to the UK (guoted price plus shipping charge) and it will work on UK/Europe/most other places voltage.
A bit is a bit. If it is 'bit perfect' it will be as 'audiophile' as anything else. Don't include a DAC, I will use my existing $12,000 one. Video is not important.
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A bit is a bit. If it is 'bit perfect' it will be as 'audiophile' as anything else. Don't include a DAC, I will use my existing $12,000 one. Video is not important.
Ouch ! You can get a bit perfect DAC for around $395 ....only audiophile Dacs cost $12k ;-)
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HDMI and S/PDIF aren't ideal for DACs. Both have problems with clocking (and jitter). If you are looking for a high quality, well engineered audio solution, you need an interface that has the master clock on the DAC.
I2S probbaly will be ideal out for some high-end DACs.
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I don't see a value at that price point... the Oppo 103 is only $100 more and plays discs as well as being a DLNA controller and renderer.
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Something along the lines of a Brix pro would be interesting, admitedly more of a server. My undestanding (rightly or wrongly) is that you can not acquire boards with crystal well HD5200 Gt3e Iris Pro integrated graphics. I gather they are soldered onto the board and sold as "trays" to OEM vendors. If JRiver qualified as a vendor it could produce a low powered NUC or small HTPC based on one of these Haswell/crystal wells. The unit could come with MC preinstalled on windows or mac. This would cover most (not all) video needs without the need for a large, noisy, power consuming video card.Optional USB host card could be added for audiophiles.
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Ouch ! You can get a bit perfect DAC for around $395 ....only audiophile Dacs cost $12k ;-)
I know. But I try to do my 'audiophile' stuff in the right places :)
And that starts at the DAC as you can't do better than 'bit perfect' from the source. Which is why some of these 'unapproved' JRiver plug ins are a waste of money, mentioning no names. Then speakers. Amplifiers (I use Naim) don't matter too much as any half-decent amp will distort much less than the DAC or speakers (the speakers distort most of all). After 35 years in the computer industry I know how computers work, unlike so many 'experts' I see on one particular forum. If they knew how they worked too we would not see all this nonsense about trigger reference level voltage, leading edge slope, linear power supplies, and stuff. Maybe jitter and clocking is nonsense too. A decent DAC can deal with all that, most of which does not occur anyway. The 'experts' all seem to forget that the 0 or the 1 is detected in the middle of the pulse, both vertically and horizontally, so such things don't matter at all. Such people are not 'experts' in any way. For example 'leading edge slope' doesn't happen on USB as many of the pulses don't have leading edges anyway due to the NRZI coding USB uses. You don't need a fancy high priced source.
The one thing I won't buy is a DAC that needs the +5 volts from the source for its USB connection. That can inject noise straight into the DAC. Not even my earlier $300 Cambridge Audo Dacmagic needed that but amazingly some of the expensive ones still do. But my dCS doesn't.
So JRiver's simple box would do me fine :). JRiver Media Centre is as good as any other software player, maybe better than most, and hopefully this little box will be the same.
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I2S probbaly will be ideal out for some high-end DACs.
Why build something that most members of this forum know how to build themselves of for that matter buy in a fan less case?
The NUC loaded with JRiver is easy to build, be it Windows or Linux. The more specialised job in HARDWARE is getting the audio cleanly to the DAC or converted to analogue within the 'box'. Since we are reaching for audiophile quality IMHO a high end USB/SPDIF bridge would be needed unless you go the whole hog and include a high end DAC.
Given enough demand ~$400 could might be enough to cover the bridge option!
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I don't see a value at that price point... the Oppo 103 is only $100 more and plays discs as well as being a DLNA controller and renderer.
Well, the Oppo doesn't do gapless rendering, a big problem if you like anything that is produced that way. That would include concert recordings, opera, much classical music, and many "concept" rock albums.
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Well, the Oppo doesn't do gapless rendering, a big problem if you like anything that is produced that way. That would include concert recordings, opera, much classical music, and many "concept" rock albums.
That is a very good point and so far my biggest disappointment with BDP-105 (there is a workaround by pulling from DLNA or media storage using OPPO interface - but it is not perfect solution). I would consider adding separate streamer-renderer just to solve that, but not at a very high price. My wife also streams a lot of movies (I am in process of digitizing my video library), but OPPO is fine for that.
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The name changed to JRiver Id. Here's a new thread:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=89084.0
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The name changed to JRiver Id. Here's a new thread:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=89084.0
And the Id is shipping now.
Links
Description (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Id)
Ordering (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Id#Ordering)
Instructions (http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Id_Instructions)
Support thread (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=89498.0)