INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => Media Center 17 => Topic started by: Matt on October 10, 2011, 05:00:50 pm
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I spent a little time today thinking about how to do a more graphical series view for television shows.
We have always shown a text list for series, because switching to thumbnails shows something like this:
(http://files.jriver.com/images/theaterview_series_1.jpg)
A couple changes today help make the view look like this:
(http://files.jriver.com.s3.amazonaws.com/images/theaterview_series_2.jpg)
1) The ability to do Cover Art > Get From Internet on television programs and browse and select artwork from TheTVDB
2) A change of aspect ratio for movie and television thumbnails views to better accommodate poster artwork
3) As you arrow around, the backdrops load immediately for the selected program instead of waiting for you to enter a series
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Better, but we now need series info, so therefore an info panel tailored to suit :)
I agree with the basic sentiments from MrHaugen's thread below on how to implement this.
Another little idea mind (You've got most of this already, so I'd hope fairly trivial to implement)-
How about allowing the images from the TVDB to be placed as a skin component in the XML file?
This then lets you drop to a single row of portrait thumbnails of series covers, and place the current backdrops as much bigger splash images.
Overlay info on that, and you're getting to where I'd like theatre view to be personally.
Edit:
Midly unclear at the moment, and I'm not really in a position to try- Can I now allocate one coverart image to a TV series, as well as the thumbnails?
-Leezer-
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Hmmm... my tv series view looks the same as it always has (like image 1) yet my movies view looks like image 2 except I only get 1 row of HUGE thumbs per screen ?
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Hmmm... my tv series view looks the same as it always has (like image 1)
Try using Cover Art > Get From Internet on your television.
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Try using Cover Art > Get From Internet on your television.
Umm, I don't particularly want to do this but I made a backup of my library and tried it. No change.
My default video view is a simple Genre>Filename setup.
See screenshot.
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1) The ability to do Cover Art > Get From Internet on television programs and browse and select artwork from TheTVDB
2) A change of aspect ratio for movie and television thumbnails views to better accommodate poster artwork
3) As you arrow around, the backdrops load immediately for the selected program instead of waiting for you to enter a series
Good! It's going the right direction. To get the covers from Internet manually is good, even though this eventually have to be automatic in some way.
One question here... This means that folder.jpg is changed to "Cover" style instead of screen grabs? Just remember that each episode often have screen grabs to illustrate a specific moment in that episode. I hope that episode thumbnails can still be used at the bottom layers. I'm using Sickbeard my self, which is downloading all meta data and images needed. The episode screen grabs is stored in "season\Thumbnails", and the link is set in the XML file for each episode. So, I'm covered. I should be able to use this with the episode thumbnails.
Another thing. The size of the Cover art seems to be rather huge. What settings is this? 1080 and 80% size? I'm testing this on a 1080P monitor with 80% size in TV, and it looks like I'm able to get 3 rows of covers, which is ok I guess. On the example image however, it's only 2 rows.
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I really don't understand why MC uses Thumbnails Style views as the default for any of the [Media Sub Type]=Video views:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=66905.msg448863#msg448863
Lineup Style is so much better and more functional.
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@Episode images
I'm going to switch to doing Series images like we do Artist images. This will allow users to continue to have episode images.
@Thumbnail lists
Sorry, but we like them. A list of movies in text or lineup mode would not be pretty. I haven't seen confusion navigating thumbnail lists, but if you have ideas to improve them from things you've seen, please let us know.
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@Episode images
I'm going to switch to doing Series images like we do Artist images. This will allow users to continue to have episode images.
That sounds like a great idea. That feature should probably be used for many image types in time.
One stupid question though. How do you use it exactly? :) I tried the Cover art - Get Artist image from Last.fm. But nothing happened. Where is the image stored? And can it be manually added?
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That sounds like a great idea. That feature should probably be used for many image types in time.
One stupid question though. How do you use it exactly? :) I tried the Cover art - Get Artist image from Last.fm. But nothing happened. Where is the image stored? And can it be manually added?
Wait until next build, since it's changing.
Then, pick some shows and use Cover Art > Get From Internet
Series images will be stored like:
[Cover art folder set in options]\Series\[Series Name].[image extension]
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@Thumbnail lists
Sorry, but we like them. A list of movies in text or lineup mode would not be pretty. I haven't seen confusion navigating thumbnail lists, but if you have ideas to improve them from things you've seen, please let us know.
I agree with glynor. It's not so much that a lineup is more functional, as the thumbnail scheme is not functional. In some cases (notably, images), I'd prefer it—if it worked properly. The navigation problem has been mentioned may times. Repeatedly navigating "next" (an almost universal requirement of something that's supposed to function as a "list") is awkward because it requires a different button press every 4th or 5th item. If your attention needs to be elsewhere—like on the info panel—then it's useless. The simple fix is just to allow {right} to do "next" at the end of a row. It otherwise does nothing.
Obviously those who do like them don't care, but those of us who do find thumbnails less functional simply because they don't convey critical information. And it's not that those preferring the prettiness of thumbnails don't need this information too. They just struggle without it because they love thumbnails so much. A series thumbnail tells me nothing about the episodes it contains. A lineup view restricted to unwatched episodes gives a good indication of what's available for each series. It indicates clearly and visually (if there are episode thumbnails, it's pretty) whether there are none, one, a few or many episodes. Thumbnail fanning helps a little, but is not nearly as effective.
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Ok. I were thinking more of the Artist images. I'm not able to see any picture files in any folders after selecting Get images from Last.fm.
I know what you are talking about Rick and Glynor. I find it frustrating that there is no consistent next item navigation, and as you have pointed out several times, and I pointed out in my TV thread, this should be easily solved. BUT, there is no reason as to why we can not get Series images for TV Shows is there? You will still be able to use the Lineup style, will you not? Ideally we should be able to switch between several image types, but I think we have to wait a bit for that
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The navigation problem has been mentioned may times. Repeatedly navigating "next" (an almost universal requirement of something that's supposed to function as a "list") is awkward because it requires a different button press every 4th or 5th item. If your attention needs to be elsewhere—like on the info panel—then it's useless. The simple fix is just to allow {right} to do "next" at the end of a row. It otherwise does nothing.
I guess I've missed this request.
Next build:
Changed: Pushing right on the right-most thumbnail in a list in Theater View goes to the first thumbnail on the next row.
It's possibly a little confusing that right goes to the next row but left goes to the top, so consider the change experimental.
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Changed: Pushing right on the right-most thumbnail in a list in Theater View goes to the first thumbnail on the next row.
Thanks! In the event of unacceptable confusion, an alternative is mentioned in the last paragraph of this post (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=66729.msg447698#msg447698).
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My movie and tv series thumbs look great now. The size and aspect ratio is perfect.
Now, how do I get this same look for other video sub types like music video (or is this coming)?
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Maybe.
We were talking today about how video should be divided. This was Matt's proposal.
Movies
Shows
Home Video
Other
Music Videos came up as a possible additon.
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Great. I'd recommend adding music video. I have as many music DVD's/BD's as I do movies!
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It's possible to set a media sub type of "Music Videos" today, and to build views around them.
But the question for us is whether the program should try to do this by default. Unless Carnac can reliably know a Music Video from other types of videos, the category may do more harm than good. And I don't know how to make Carnac detect music videos reliably.
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And I don't know how to make Carnac detect music videos reliably.
That's funny. I just removed the solution from it's hermetically-sealed mayonnaise jar and posted it here (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=66878.msg448952#msg448952). ;)
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It's possible to set a media sub type of "Music Videos" today, and to build views around them.
And I've done this. Except the thumbs still appear as they always have, without the new sizing/aspect of movies and TV.
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Next build:
Changed: Pushing right on the right-most thumbnail in a list in Theater View goes to the first thumbnail on the next row.
It's possibly a little confusing that right goes to the next row but left goes to the top, so consider the change experimental.
This shouldn't happen in lists though. Currently it's happening in list AND thumbnail lists views. I like right arrow doing "Enter" where lists are concerned. Like it's always been.
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Looks great! Is there a way of manually adding this from the Clipboard for Series that fail. Eg - "Downtown Abbey" is not found yet I can see it at TVDB so could I manually copy/paste the image?
EDIT: Where is the Coverart being saved? I have my option set as "In the same folder as the file" but they are not in there.
EDIT2: Found them, they are in C:\Users\[USER]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 17\Cover Art\Series
is this correct?
EDIT3: I found that if I manually add "Downtown Abbey.JPG" (saved from TVDB) to the coverart folder above then MC picks it up.
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EDIT2: Found them, they are in C:\Users\[USER]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 17\Cover Art\Series
Should it not be stored together with the media if you have chosen this? This might be the reason why I could not find my covers in the expected spots either.
Great work by the way. I agree however that we have to think about the right navigation in list styles. It might not be the best to make it browse down if you hit right arrow in this cases, and it might be confusing if the behavior is different in different list types. I'm not really sure what I think about this.
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A few observations.
- The covers does not honor the "Store cover art in...." settings when downloading manually. On my system everything was stored in the User/appdata.... folder.
- Cover art seemed to download automatically and was added as folder.jpg in the Series folder? Is this even possible, or did MC pick up a file that was already there? I might have just forgotten about the folder.jpg that was there in the first place.
If it's not automatic, have you considered doing it automatically? It's very much work to do this for each TV Show. It's a bit slow as well, but that is expected if you download the images full size. This method is very good for correcting bad images etc. But it's hardly something for everyday use..
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Any more news on this?
I hope it's just me that had the problems with cover location. It was probably just a user error, as it works well now :)
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Firstly...
I've had a strange experience. I didn't like the poster shape of the thumbnail, so I changed from the downloaded version by creating my own file and placing it in the relevant folder. I had the my chosen thumbnail for a while but then MC replaced it with the one I had downloaded and rejected. This has happened a good three to four times with a half dozen files I rejected.
Secondly...
How do I tell Theater View to use the series thumbnails any time I'm browing a view at the series level. I only get them on the default view based on series title. Otherwise I get a random selection of screen shots featuring episode titles.
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As mentioned above, it would be good for MC to do an automatic guess/lookup for all series and then we can look up manually for those images we don't like. I have all of the images already as folder.jpg in a parent folder and it was a pain to have to copy and rename them to MC's place of storage. Sickbeard, XBMC etc all set some type of order/structure which I suspect quite a few people are using. It would be good if mc could look up a directory or two from a file to see if there is a parent directory with the same name as the series and if there is a folder.jpg there, use it if there is nothing in the coverart folder (copy it if you need).
I guess with this structure we aren't going to see anything for seasons? (Not to say I am not very happy that we have series :))
Craig
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I like the change, I already have thumbnails for my series stored as folder.jpg, hopefully we can do something seimilar for seasons. However I would also like to see that we can use "backdrop.jpg"-files for the background when navigating the series. It can make having a "clean" visual look easier (not so relevant yet, due to only a few theatre view skins beeing available), and although the internet-images are really nice, I am a bit weary of them in TV-series, as I have had one series i followed being spoiled by a characther in the series showing up in a wheelchair in the autoloaded pictures.
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Running the "Get Cover Art" on TV Programs is excruciatingly slow. I get about 4 a minute.
What is the "proper" way to use thumbnail captures for the episode, season art by season, and the TVDB artwork by season? How do I set this up?
I'm currently using Sickbeard with sgomes' mod to add video art to MC...
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Maybe.
We were talking today about how video should be divided. This was Matt's proposal.
Movies
Shows
Home Video
Other
Music Videos came up as a possible additon.
In line with this, and the call for greater integration of online and local content, what are the chances of seeing Netflix TV Shows genre and Hulu TV shows integrated under Shows, with Netflix and Hulu Movie gneres then being integrated under Movies. Perhaps they could simply be differentiated by a small icon (similar to the watched tick) or a roller item... In this way, those not connected to netflix and / or hulu won't see them but those who are connected to these will. It would also make the need for separate main roller items for these redundant.
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Obviously those who do like them don't care, but those of us who do find thumbnails less functional simply because they don't convey critical information. And it's not that those preferring the prettiness of thumbnails don't need this information too. They just struggle without it because they love thumbnails so much. A series thumbnail tells me nothing about the episodes it contains. A lineup view restricted to unwatched episodes gives a good indication of what's available for each series. It indicates clearly and visually whether there are none, one, a few or many episodes. Thumbnail fanning helps a little, but is not nearly as effective.
Now that I've switched to MC17, I see this is indeed a significant issue for me. The attached screenshot illustrates the problem. The top image is the now normal result of a lineup list style for (Series) Categories. Although this is neat and tidy, it tells me nothing about what's available for viewing. What I'm used to and prefer for regular use is the multiple thumbnails per series—as shown in the bottom image. This works perfectly because it provides a quick visual overview of the status of all series. If I want more detail, I'll view the file list for the series. But this gives me a clear indication of what details I'll find there.
I realize there may be further changes that will affect this. But I doubt I could ever be happy abandoning the multiple image alternative. At the same time, I would have some use for an alternate view using one thumbnail per series in a thumbnail style. So I would like to be able to set it one way or the other for each view (i.e., as Display "All" as a choice is now).
The bottom image of the screenshot illustrates my current workaround. I've removed [Media Sub Type]=[TV Show] for all episodes, while retaining it for my series dummy records. Leaving it set for the series records seems to allow the backdrops to continue working normally. Since Carnac isn't configurable (and this is an example of why I'm concerned about it not being so), I'll have to manually remove the "TV Show" tag from every episode imported. If and when some means for handling series information is added to the program, I'll no longer require dummy files and this workaround won't be available.
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Bah. Exactly one of the concerns that was mentioned when the Series images was introduced.... I've also started to use the Lineup style more and more, and this would become a problem. Looking at one Series image is pointless in this list style. It should be configurable. Either screen grabs or seasons should be shows imo.
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I also agree with the above two posts. I have also recently found them to be a nice way to browse. I think it would be nice to have the poster for the TVShow either on the left of the episode shots, as rick.ca has in his image, or perhaps preferably, over on the far left before the name of the show, i.e. image followed by name/custom expression.
craig
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rick, could you please remind me how to get the lineup style. I think I followed some instruction (from you?) for MC16 a while ago, but can't find how to do it again and brain is too .....
thanks
craig
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Bah. Exactly one of the concerns that was mentioned when the Series images was introduced.... I've also started to use the Lineup style more and more, and this would become a problem. Looking at one Series image is pointless in this list style. It should be configurable. Either screen grabs or seasons should be shows imo.
To be honest, i don't see the point of some random screengrabs either? But to each his own i guess, as long as it can be changed, everyone can tweak it as they please. But a a "season"-image would be nice.
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I know. Screen grabs ain't perfect either. But it does give you a few clues. I use this list style only with not watched episodes, and it tells me in a quick way, what is left to watch.
I would MUCH rather have a info pane on the right side, with some relevant info as how many episodes is not watched, genre, actors, show rating and so on. Or in addition to this screen grabs, season cover art or what you please.
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random as the screen grabs may be (but I think that those on thetvdb are sometimes helpful), my 7 year old can pick most episodes of 10 seasons of top gear from the screen grab. Our minds my not be as nimble, but it is surprising how a picture does help.
craig
ps I have annoyed the balance of the universe by using sickbeard to change the screen shots :)
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Yes. Those screen shots do help sometimes. Random screen shots generated from MC would probably not work that well though.
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I can see how screengrabs can be useful when choosing an episode, but not so much in the screenshot, where you are just choosing the series or eventually season. But i guess it's a bit OT. I can see that other people thing otherwise.
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Maybe I missed it, but would integrating banners from thetvdb help clean up some screens? You could probably fit more banners on a page than covers.
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I'd love a new list style with Banners. It looks great, and it could have enough caption space for some relation fields beneath. It should not replace the Lineup style though.
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+1 for lineup style.
Lineup gives a good indication what to expect while still looking clean.
And because I use it for all media types that I use on the htpc (movies, tv and photo/home video) it helps the ui stay consistent.
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I also agree with the above two posts. I have also recently found them to be a nice way to browse. I think it would be nice to have the poster for the TVShow either on the left of the episode shots, as rick.ca has in his image, or perhaps preferably, over on the far left before the name of the show, i.e. image followed by name/custom expression.
Just to be clear about what appears in my screenshot...The series posters are associated with my dummy series records. Those are tagged so they appear in the proper order in the file list (i.e., as if they were S00E00), but I have no control over where they appear in the lineup. In the screenshot, note the poster for Deadwood is between two episode images. I've never attempted to find a pattern in what order they appear in.
Showing series posters at the far left might go nicely with the option to show the episode images on the right.
rick, could you please remind me how to get the lineup style. I think I followed some instruction (from you?) for MC16 a while ago, but can't find how to do it again and brain is too .....
After many hours spent rebuilding my Theatre View views, this is probably the only thing left in my brain. It's not an option or setting in the configuration as you might expect. It's set directly in Theatre View only—separately for each view. Select More > Toggle List Style from the menu. Beware of toggling too far—the menu behaves inconsistently after reaching the Showroom style. Also, note there are actually two styles for each view—one for the Categories (one style for however many there are) and a separate one for the file list.
Being able to change the style in Theatre View might sometimes be necessary, but there should also be a setting for it in the configuration. Changing a configuration setting is much faster than cycling through the styles in the view. It would be a small consolation for the more functional lineup style not being the default in the first place. ;)
To be honest, i don't see the point of some random screengrabs either? But to each his own i guess, as long as it can be changed, everyone can tweak it as they please. But a a "season"-image would be nice.
Random? Yuck. Episode images are normally be chosen from multiple screenshots. If not by you, then by some other user of the meta data source (like TVDb).
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Random? Yuck. Episode images are normally be chosen from multiple screenshots. If not by you, then by some other user of the meta data source (like TVDb).
Random, as in when you show a tv-series, as in the screenshot, the pictures are from random episodes.
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Random, as in when you show a tv-series, as in the screenshot, the pictures are from random episodes.
OIC. Yes, it would be nice if they were in order, although it's really just the series poster being in a random position that bothers me. For a more "accurate" presentation of episodes, the file list is just a button-press away. The main thing I'm interested in is whether there are 0, 1, 3 or 13 unwatched episodes available.
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I'm trying to get the new series images to appear in my Theater Views. It looks like they are showing up as I add them on my main machine, but I can't seem to make them appear on any of the client machines....
Thoughts?
brad
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At the risk of sounding a bit disappointed ......
Why have we stopped at getting a poster for the series? Why are we not also getting a default background (fanart) image so that we don't have to wait for MC to get one from the internet. When it has fetched one from the internet, it can swap, but why not have something immediately.
Also why not banner art. For the lineup style in rick's screenshots above the left side could be banner art instead.
Why not also select season art?
Even if we don't have a way to use these other images today, I can only assume that you will at some point, and I will have to go through the whole select and download process again, and this quite annoying.
If when we Get CoverArt from the internet the images come from theTVDB, why not have an option to store thetvdb show id, that way you are building in a bit of future proofing. If you create a way to banner art, I do not need to do anything, you have thetvdb id and MC can go and get it for me.
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+1 To all structs points. The additions comming are great, and a move in the right direction, but theatre view still has a way to go on the "bling-factor", all the suggestions from struct are good.
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Agreed. Theater View needs more changes like this one.
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At the risk of sounding a bit disappointed...
At the risk of sounding a bit redundant...It's not finished yet. ;)
Also why not banner art. For the lineup style in rick's screenshots above the left side could be banner art instead.
I don't think so. Banners work fine in a series and maybe an episode details view, or in a summary view that shows only banners, but not as part of a list.
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Is there a way to allow a user to view two properties for each episode (TV show) displayed in Thether View? In addtion to the episoide Name, I would like to see either the "episode Series/Number" or a "check mark" for when the episode has been watched.
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'Watched' is something we are really missing. We've imported a bunch of movies and TV series from SageTV. In Sage there is a box alongside each listing that shows if it's been watched. Now we have a long list and sure can't remember what we have seen. So we keep opening a video and after awhile one of us will say "We've already seen that". Sure adds to the frustration factor!
In our case we would like a 'Watched' for all Videos; TV shows, TV movies, DVD & BlueRay rips.
Thanks for considering this.
Rod
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Watched/Not watched indicators should be added to context in option. It's possible today, but not at all intuitive. And the Numbers should be replaced by icons, and they should be alligned differently than other context. Watched/Not watched indicators and the correct number is also needed on summary for TV Shows, just to mention a couple of things.
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Watched/Not watched indicators should be added to context in option. It's possible today, but not at all intuitive. And the Numbers should be replaced by icons, and they should be alligned differently than other context. Watched/Not watched indicators and the correct number is also needed on summary for TV Shows, just to mention a couple of things.
maybe a 3 or 4 pixel high bar across the bottom of the cover/thumbnail with a progress indicator showing where the bookmark is. I could tell at just a glance how far into a show I am, without being obtrusive
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1) The ability to do Cover Art > Get From Internet on television programs and browse and select artwork from TheTVDB
Where is this option hidden? I don't see it anywhere.
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Where is this option hidden? I don't see it anywhere.
The command does not appear (on the Tools or context menus) unless a file with [Media Sub Type]=[TV Show] is selected.
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I have used Categories and sub categories for my Movies and TV like MN (movies New) Mw (movies watched). this works quite well.
With the tv series I have been downloading the cover art and descriptions.I also used to have to name all the series.
Does the new way mean that I can get the artwork inside MC and the series does this mean I can get rid of my rules??
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The command does not appear (on the Tools or context menus) unless a file with [Media Sub Type]=[TV Show] is selected.
Understood, and my TV shows are tagged that way. Still don't see that option anywhere in the main GUI or in Theater View.
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Still don't see that option anywhere in the main GUI or in Theater View.
Do you not see it at Tools > Cover Art > Get From Internet or on the context menu—for files with [Media Sub Type]=[TV Show]? Generally, you will not find such commands in Theatre View.
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Do you not see it at Tools > Cover Art > Get From Internet or on the context menu—for files with [Media Sub Type]=[TV Show]? Generally, you will not find such commands in Theater View.
Didn't realize that function got cover art for the series instead of the episode. Is there no way to set cover art for the specific episode now? Anyway to see the cover art for the series in the main GUI (apart from doing a search cover art) or do you have to switch back and forth between Theater view and regular view to find the series that need cover art changes?
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Edit - totally counter-intuitive at least for me.
Get Cover Art > From Internet - sets the cover art for the series.
Paste from clipboard - sets cover art for the actual program.
Doesn't appear to be a way to set series cover art to anything other than what the internet search finds, and it can't find images for all of my shows.
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Doesn't appear to be a way to set series cover art to anything other than what the internet search finds, and it can't find images for all of my shows.
All of my video covers are automatically imported from Personal Video Database, so I may not understand how this works. But I see there's a Series sub-folder under the Cover Art folder (the location of which you set in Options). I'm sure if you place any image named with a series there, it will be used. As for episode images, I don't expect to see those until a meta data retrieval system is implemented.
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Will get covert from the internet be changed to go in the folder where I nominated.
I get all my info in the office and work through the network so putting the cover on my office machine is a no go.
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Is there a way to allow a user to view two properties for each episode (TV show) displayed in Thether View? In addtion to the episoide Name, I would like to see either the "episode Series/Number" or a "check mark" for when the episode has been watched.
I really don't like the way it currently works, but you can build a custom file caption. What I don't like is the lack of any building tools - it all has to be done as a text entry and it can get very complex very fast. This is my current one (very much a work in progress), but it displays different data for Audio vs TV Show vs Music Video vs everything else. The TV Show logic currently puts a bullet point in front of unwatched episodes.
If(isequal([Media Type],Audio,1),[Track #] [Name] - [Artist],If(isequal([Media Sub Type],TV Show,1),If(isequal([Number Plays],1,3),•,)[Episode] [Name] [Date],If(isequal([Media Sub Type],Music Video,1),[Artist]: [Name],[Name] /([Year]/))))
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I really don't like the way it currently works, but you can build a custom file caption. What I don't like is the lack of any building tools - it all has to be done as a text entry and it can get very complex very fast.
I wonder what you mean by "building tools." it's difficult to imagine anything that would handle the capabilities of the Expression Language.
I find it helpful (and usually essential) to use Expression Columns in Standard View to build and test captions. I use separate columns to test bits of code (e.g., getting the syntax of an unfamiliar function correct) and copy those to another containing the entire expression (e.g., where there might be complex if-then logic).
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Try using Cover Art > Get From Internet on your television.
As I said this works great but it puts the cover art in the wrong place.
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I wonder what you mean by "building tools." it's difficult to imagine anything that would handle the capabilities of the Expression Language.
I find it helpful (and usually essential) to use Expression Columns in Standard View to build and test captions. I use separate columns to test bits of code (e.g., getting the syntax of an unfamiliar function correct) and copy those to another containing the entire expression (e.g., where there might be complex if-then logic).
I would like to see a beefed up expression builder similar to the set rules for file display builder. Even just having the expressions builder there would be better than the existing plain text, figure it out elsewhere box that exists currently.
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I would like to see a beefed up expression builder similar to the set rules for file display builder.
That was the first thing I couldn't imagine working. ;)
I suppose something similar to the function helpers in Excel (where, having selected a function, you're shown the parameters required) would help a little—although the tooltips work fairly well.
Even just having the expressions builder there would be better than the existing plain text, figure it out elsewhere box that exists currently.
But that's what drove me to use Expressions Columns—where I can use the full expression editor and see the results. I'd still do that for all but the simplest changes, even if there were an expression editor in the Options dialog. In any case, I agree. It's a place where expressions are entered, so the editor should be there.
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That was the first thing I couldn't imagine working. ;)
I suppose something similar to the function helpers in Excel (where, having selected a function, you're shown the parameters required) would help a little—although the tooltips work fairly well.
But that's what drove me to use Expressions Columns—where I can use the full expression editor and see the results. I'd still do that for all but the simplest changes, even if there were an expression editor in the Options dialog. In any case, I agree. It's a place where expressions are entered, so the editor should be there.
At a minimum what I would like to see here would be:
The current expression editor functionality, expanded to either work with tool tips or that drops in parameters along with the function. For example right now if you choose 'If(...)' it just drops in 'If()'. It would be 'nicer' (for me anyway) if it dropped in 'If(Test Expression,True,False)' instead. Tool tips would be better but may be harder to do.
The problem I have here is that is such an overloaded expression trying to get it to display different things for different types of content. What I would REALLY like to see would be separate entries for the default caption as well as entries for each media type and sub type. The entry at the lowest level would win.
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The problem I have here is that is such an overloaded expression trying to get it to display different things for different types of content. What I would REALLY like to see would be separate entries for the default caption as well as entries for each media type and sub type. The entry at the lowest level would win.
I agree there should be a caption for each [Media Type], and maybe a special one for [Media Sub Type]=[TV Show]. If it goes beyond that, it starts to get complicated for other reasons. That's sufficient for general rules. Then special situations should be dealt with by overriding those rules at the view level. The setting at the view level might even show the applicable default rule based on the view's Rules for file display, and then allow that expression to be edited if the override is engaged. In other words, in the view configuration, you would check a "Override default caption" box and an expression editor would appear—loaded with the applicable default caption.
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I like the idea of an override at the view level, but TV Shows are not the only 'special case'. In videos alone I have podcasts, movies, TV shows, and music videos - all of which (for me) would need completely different file captions. If I come in from a top level view that has a 'sub type' break out, I would still want the different types to have different captions. The current overload with 'if/then' gets very confusing very fast.
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...but TV Shows are not the only 'special case'.
I'm not suggesting it is. What I am suggesting is attempting to provide for 'special cases' is just going to make it unnecessarily complicated. I'm further suggesting [Media Sub Type]=[TV Show] is 'special' in the sense it's captions are unique, and it's used by many/most users. If I'm wrong, and the same is true of podcasts and music videos and other things, then forget it—restrict it to unique [Media Types].
If the case can be made for a more sophisticated system—and this is a huge leap from the single inert little input box we have now—I suppose it should be a flexible tree-like hierarchy of rules. Something like...
- Default
- Audio
- [Genre]=[Classical]
- [Media sub Type]=[Audiobook]
- Image
- Video
- [Media Sub Type]=[Music Video]
- [Media Sub Type]=[Podcast]
- [Media Sub Type]=[TV Show]
...with a caption expression associated with each. If a rule is applicable, it's children are checked. If none of those rules are applicable, the parent caption is used. Otherwise, the caption of the first matching rule is used.
This help a little in dealing with a complex set of possibilities. But it also quickly reduces to matter of specifying a caption for a subset of media that's only shown in one view anyway. Where that's the case, it would be more straightforward to specify the caption at the view level. This is particularly true considering the design of the caption and that of the view often go hand-in-hand. So what's more practical is striking a balance between specifying default captions by media type, and then overriding those at the view level. That still provides the choice of using simple general captions and frequently overriding them at the view level, or using more complex general captions which rarely need to be overridden.
This also make it easier to specify captions that only vary when necessary, and are otherwise consistent—even for different media types presented in different views. Consistent captions become familiar, and therefore generally easier to understand. This is important for the kind of Theatre View configuration this issue is applicable to—the one with many views handling a variety of media types. So, another strike against the more sophisticated configuration system. Why create something that will only make it easier to produce an undesirable result?
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That is kind of what I had in mind. Have a 'default' and then have optional sub-options (didn't think about your Genre example, but it is a perfect one for audio) for Type and Sub-Type (or genre for audio).
In your example diagram, if Video > Music Video were not completed, it would use the setting for 'Video' and if that were not completed, it would use default. That way users that did not need or want the extra functionality would not need to fill them out. There could even be delivered defaults that made sense for that type of content.
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That way users that did not need or want the extra functionality would not need to fill them out. There could even be delivered defaults that made sense for that type of content.
Yes, but the same thing can be done in the manner I suggest—that is, limiting it to the [Media Type] level. The stock configuration could include expressions that will handle common situations and serve as examples of how to deal with more complex situations. In any case, the third level of the illustration is easily replicated using nested If() functions in the parent expression. For example...
If(IsEqual([Genre], Classical), {Classical caption},
If(IsEqual([Media Sub Type], Audiobook), {Audiobook caption},
{Default Audio caption}))
Using the Expression Language directly in this manner also has the advantage of not failing when anything more complicated than a simple test of field values is called for.
Okay, I've talked myself into it... ;)
The single global caption setting should simply be replaced with one for each media type. Each view should have the option of an override caption that applies only to that view. All of these caption settings should be supported by the full expression editor. And to add a touch of cool, include a button for View your caption as an Expression Column in your main {Media Type} view...
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The single global caption setting should simply be replaced with one for each media type. Each view should have the option of an override caption that applies only to that view
I would like to see this happen also
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The single global caption setting should simply be replaced with one for each media type. Each view should have the option of an override caption that applies only to that view. All of these caption settings should be supported by the full expression editor. And to add a touch of cool, include a button for View your caption as an Expression Column in your main {Media Type} view...
That would have been something. This would help a lot. I have an extremely long caption code today, which is only for some video and music. It's really complicated. At least for me. Lot's and lot's of nested IF's. I can understand other users falling asleep before they get close to my results. And even those results is pretty simple in some of the power users eyes. Seperating this and getting some more options would help in bringing some more flexibility in theater View and Standard view.