INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 23 for Windows => Topic started by: jmone on September 11, 2017, 06:07:58 am
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I see that Kodi has implemented support for both (unencrypted):
- BD Menus (BD-J)
- UHD BD
Any thoughts on the MC front?
Thanks
Nathan
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I haven't kept up on this ... how do you get an unencrypted UHD BD?
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You don't. Not legally. AACS 2.0 has not been defeated by any of the known decryption tools.
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I see. How can you support something (UHD BD menus) you can't play? I must be missing something.
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Sounds like they added support for the images that are out there released by a group. No one's entirely sure how they decrypted the discs that are released, but, as I said, those are not legit sources of material.
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Didn't DVDfab say that they wouldn't pursue decrypting UHD BD's so that they wouldn't be the subject of further legal action?
Then they released a movie server that can play 4K BD's. Hardware, so no separate software to install on a PC, but it plays BD ISO backups made in DVDfab.
It all just makes it harder for honest people to play the movies they have purchased... as we all know.
But support for "standard" BD Menus in MC would be appreciated. That is one lack in MC that leaves me somewhat annoyed.
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UHD BDs should get basic support in the next LAV update.
For BD menus - you would have to convince Jim. :)
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Thanks Hendrik - Hopefully the UHD BD support was just the parsing of the new header and meta data changes for the streams (like the update you did to support AVCHD V2 a few years ago).
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Here is my personal Pitch to Jim as I'm really keen on the BD Menu Support.
I buy a lot of BD's including TV Shows that have a 3-4 Eps per Disk. While we can make a particle for each MPLS you can not tell what is the right one to watch and in what order. My wife and I really enjoyed the True Story Minnesotan Documentary :) "Fargo" including both the Movie and the TV Series.... but my "guess" of the eps order was wrong with the TV Series and we initially missed one Eps entirely and got another in the wrong order. It really spoilt the flow of the show.
Having BD Menu support would allow you to play a BD without having to pre-process it to expose, create particles, tag, and guess at what the Eps are on a disk. It would vastly improve the WAF for these disks. You could just put in the disk (or play a rip) and get the correct eps from the menu.
I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that BD Menu support will unlock the ability for MC Users with BD Disks to access:
- Correct Eps Orders
- Alternative Endings for Movies
- Different Versions of the Movies (Theatrical Releases / Directors cuts etc)
- "Bonus" material on the disks
- On Music BD you will be able to see the track list and song names
- You will see Chapter Names (I presume???)
I know I've been banging on this for years but I figure for me it is worth the price of a HW Device, so I will donate US$250 to your choice:
- Bratwurst / Budweiser Sidewalk Fund
- Muffins
- Chickens
- Preferred Charity
Imagine how many Chickens you can get running around the office!
(http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/170111105043-china-ducklings-exlarge-169.jpg)
Thanks
Nathan
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that is exactly my use case for bd menus so I completely agree with the above
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that is exactly my use case for bd menus so I completely agree with the above
So you vote for the Chickens? Well Done!
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What's the legalities involved with BD menus?
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BD Menus: Why?
I usually rip all optical discs as soon as I get them these days, and watch the rip at my leisure. However, that leaves me without the opportunity to even see what extras are on the disc, let alone watch them. I usually just watch the main feature now, because that is all MC can do. I've never been big on watching extras, but alternate endings and versions, that I am interested in. A shame I don't know what I am missing.
Not to mention, I have to maintain a licence of some other software just in case I want to check out the menu at some time. Or if someone visiting wants to. If I have to watch BD with menus using other expensive software, and use the sound system that software provides, what is the point of having a Media Center? It is supposed to be an all in one solution, from my perspective.
The TV functionality in MC is pretty good now... just when Free To Air TV is on its way out, except for casual watching maybe. Streaming services will kill it, but not quite yet. The ability to schedule recordings of series and watch at a later time is what holds any consumer attention, from my perspective.
DVDs are fine, but don't offer the High Definition that current TVs can support. madVR and good upscaling still make them a good option for bargain bin entertainment, but I buy BDs these days.
Standard BDs are the next or current cheap HD entertainment medium. Not fully supporting them leaves a large gap in a Media Center solution. Full support means menus, or the equivalent of using a BD player, Amplifier, and TV.
UHD BDs are still the bleeding edge. Content is lacking, and they can only be played using hardware. Early adopters, or people who haven't yet committed to a solution, will buy the hardware and ignore Media Centers. With the DRM situation, it is understandable that JRiver can't support UHD BDs. But not supporting menus in standard BDs is less understandable.
Didn't someone say once: Any media, any time, any place?
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I've made the pitch for BD menus before. I'll give you a real world example of why they're a good thing to support. The argument against supporting them has always been that MC is great at picking the right title to play...except when it doesn't. When you have a living room full of people who just want to watch a movie, and you stick a blu-ray in and load it up in MC, and it selects the wrong titleset, suffice it to say that is not a good user experience. I ended up switching over to PowerDVD in that case. Could I have spent the time to find the correct titleset? Sure, but, not with a bunch of people waiting to watch said movie. That's example #1.
Jmone hit the nail on the head with example #2. Episode discs are a massive pain to deal with. Sure, you can rip them, but, even then you have to figure out what episode matches each titleset. I just ripped my entire library of Game of Thrones discs and went through that exercise. Not only did it take 4 days to complete because I had to go through each titleset to verify it was the correct episode, but it takes up a massive 612 gigs of storage. Not everyone is going to have that kind of storage kicking around to rip those discs nor the patience to figure out the proper titlesets per episode.
BD menu support solves both of those use cases with a seamless user experience. It really would be a useful feature to have.
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I've gone through the "ripping TV Seasons" exercise many times in the past few years. First on DVD and now on BD. I agree that it's a pain to try to figure out which episode is which. With Battlestar Gallactica I ended up relying up on the director's commentary track to figure out which episode was which. Took me a good bit of time, but not so bad.
I used MakeMKV to do all of the ripping. I think the notion of using MC to rip DRM protected disks like BDs is TOTALLY BACKWARDS. Ditto for actually playing optical discs with MC.
Why do I have this incredibly unpopular opinion? Because JRiver isn't licensed for any of the DRM thats on these discs. Which means they rely upon you to buy software that can do the real time decryption. Both for ripping and for watching. That makes no sense.
In the case of ripping, you also end up with an ENCRYPTED copy. That makes no sense.
So these ancillary problems of "not seeing the extras and alternate endings" or "it picked the wrong title" are all an offshoot of a backwards system. Not to mention, that this support for optical discs is in the same camp as TV support and advanced video support: Namely that it's been done in a non-portable way and is thus locked into the Windows version of MC only. So I selfishly would like development to be focused on features I can actually use. But that's beside the point.
If you rip your own disks with a program designed to do this, you will see every single title on the disk and have the option to rip it or not. You'll never be "guessing" when you put in a disc to watch. You'll have done the work ahead of time to figure out the title that you like and you'll play the one you intend to play.
Would I like this all to be easier? Yes. Do I want MC to do it? Absolutely not.
Brian.
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I would wholeheartedly disagree, but, I do respect your opinion. For me, I use AnyDVD for realtime protection removal. I don't want or expect MC to handle any "decrypting" aspects of my playback. It should never know there was any protection in the first place. The reason I use realtime protection removal is so that I have a CHOICE of what playback software I can use. What if I were to author my own discs with no protection and was able to add a menu? I'd want MC to be able to play that back. IOW, the argument we're making for including support for BD menus is not about how we get our unprotected discs....it's about having complete support for the format IMO. We have the same support for DVD's. I'd like to see it for BD, as well.
P.S. I've never used MC to rip any content. I've never asked for it to be able to do so. I'm focused strictly on playback.
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I don't follow the point about it being windows only. It is cross platform as far as I can see
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The rendering (madvr) is windows only.
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What does madvr have to do with bd menus?
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I would wholeheartedly disagree, but, I do respect your opinion.
:) I feel similarly about this post.
IOW, the argument we're making for including support for BD menus is not about how we get our unprotected discs....it's about having complete support for the format IMO. We have the same support for DVD's. I'd like to see it for BD, as well.
Both are goofy in my opinion. Why? Because they rely upon that external software. DVD and BD. I guess I understand why you would want MC to play optical discs. But it seems very backwards to me because this is a digital media player. The primary advantage of a player like this is that you do not need physical media: It's all on hard disk where it can be accessed instantly. Instead you want to play it directly from the old style media, as opposed to ripping it and always having access. Again, I kinda, sorta understand the desire. But wouldn't you be WAY better off with a physical player for playing physical media? It seems backwards for MC to support playback of optical discs at all.
Brian.
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I don't follow the point about it being windows only. It is cross platform as far as I can see
Windows is the only platform that supports any playback of physical DVDs and BDs. Or ripping them. I've verified this on Mac, but haven't tested it on Linux. I'm pretty sure MC for Linux doesn't support this either.
MC for Mac also does not play any kind of video in ISO format. So a full DVD or BD rip is impossible to play to start with. Menu support would therefore only be for the Windows version by definition.
Brian.
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What does madvr have to do with bd menus?
Nothing. The question was around the windows only aspects of playback and madvr is the only part of that.
EDIT: Wait, does LAV have a linux version? I guess it probably doesn't, either soooooo, yea, ok.
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:) I feel similarly about this post.
Both are goofy in my opinion. Why? Because they rely upon that external software. DVD and BD. I guess I understand why you would want MC to play optical discs. But it seems very backwards to me because this is a digital media player. The primary advantage of a player like this is that you do not need physical media: It's all on hard disk where it can be accessed instantly. Instead you want to play it directly from the old style media, as opposed to ripping it and always having access. Again, I kinda, sorta understand the desire. But wouldn't you be WAY better off with a physical player for playing physical media? It seems backwards for MC to support playback of optical discs at all.
Brian.
No, I'm not at all better off with a physical player which is why I choose to use MC. MC allows me to select the codecs I desire. In this case LAV and madVR. That combination allows me the highest possible PQ when playing back my media. Don't get me wrong here, I rip my most watched content to MKV's. The issue is I own over 1000 BD's and have nowhere near the storage required for all of them. For my lesser watched movies, it's nice to be able to pop it in the BD drive, open up MC, and off I go. If it had menu support, it'd be perfect. Can I use PowerDVD and the like? Sure, I could, but, again, PQ is far better given the options to optimize based on my hardware using LAV and madVR. The protection aspect is something I'm willing to take care of myself. I've never expected a non-licensed player like MC to handle it. It's the format I care about, and BD menus are part of the BD format. Can I live without it? Sure, and have done so. But as mentioned in my first post on this topic, I'd be a lot better off with menu support.
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Nothing. The question was around the windows only aspects of playback and madvr is the only part of that.
EDIT: Wait, does LAV have a linux version? I guess it probably doesn't, either soooooo, yea, ok.
there are 2 different issues here, can/should/will
1) jriver support BD menus?
2) jriver provide feature parity across all supported platforms?
This thread is about the former. It's unfortunate that it also increases the gap for point 2 but that is still a separate issue, not least because as a linux system is, last time I checked, capable of (decrypted) BD playback (different playback chain obviously though)
Windows is the only platform that supports any playback of physical DVDs and BDs. Or ripping them. I've verified this on Mac, but haven't tested it on Linux. I'm pretty sure MC for Linux doesn't support this either.
MC for Mac also does not play any kind of video in ISO format. So a full DVD or BD rip is impossible to play to start with. Menu support would therefore only be for the Windows version by definition.
Brian.
It doesn't make sense to me to use anything other than a windows system as the library server for a setup in which video is important. It also doesn't make sense to me to stall windows development just because some feature or other isn't possible on another platform supported by MC. No doubt the latter opinion is influenced by the former :)
But wouldn't you be WAY better off with a physical player for playing physical media? It seems backwards for MC to support playback of optical discs at all.
I would be inclined to this view if you could legally purchase a BD quality download but sadly you can't
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It doesn't make sense to me to use anything other than a windows system as the library server for a setup in which video is important. It also doesn't make sense to me to stall windows development just because some feature or other isn't possible on another platform supported by MC. No doubt the latter opinion is influenced by the former :)
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I have a license for the Windows version of MC, and have for quite some time. But I refuse to use it because I think the environment is "unpleasant". This is sugar coating my opinion enormously. I'm not here to have a debate about my platform choice. I'm simply illustrating that many people like myself won't use that platform. So it is my desire for JRiver to expend their efforts on features that all of us can use. Of course Windows users are the majority *today*. So it might make financial sense for them to develop yet another Windows only feature. <shrug>
(Referring to my asking about using a physical BD player instead of MC)
I would be inclined to this view if you could legally purchase a BD quality download but sadly you can't
I'm not sure what this has to do with using a physical player for optical discs. My answer to no legal ability to download high quality video is simple. I buy BDs and rip them. Which is a horrible waste, as I literally never pick them up again, except to keep them organized as I add more and more of them. I'm sure some people here do something similar.
Brian.
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Both are goofy in my opinion. Why? Because they rely upon that external software. DVD and BD. I guess I understand why you would want MC to play optical discs. But it seems very backwards to me because this is a digital media player. The primary advantage of a player like this is that you do not need physical media: It's all on hard disk where it can be accessed instantly. Instead you want to play it directly from the old style media, as opposed to ripping it and always having access. Again, I kinda, sorta understand the desire. But wouldn't you be WAY better off with a physical player for playing physical media?
JRiver relies on external software for everything (Windows, Linux, Mac OS, LAV Filters, madVR, etc.). I'm not sure why the reliance on decryption software matters regarding having Blu-ray menu support.
I have a physical player in my HTPC and rip my purchased movies. For rented movies from redbox, I just play straight from the disc. I want Blu-ray menu support for the ripped content and rarely need it for a rented movie. I don't understand why you are associating menu support with direct playback. Most of us play our Blu-rays just fine without having the physical media in hand.
It seems backwards for MC to support playback of optical discs at all.
I've been using a PC for media playback since 1989 and we used to only have discs. Streaming wasn't invented yet. 99.99% of my usage of JRiver has involved optical discs (CD, DVD, or Blu-ray). I have a few albums I've purchased from HD Tracks and one from Pono, but that is the extent of my online purchases.
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fwiw I added windows purely for jriver, if I could go back to linux only I would but there are too many features in an AV system (not just jriver) that are windows only so I use windows. BDs simply matter more to me.
I'm not sure what this has to do with using a physical player for optical discs. My answer to no legal ability to download high quality video is simple. I buy BDs and rip them. Which is a horrible waste, as I literally never pick them up again, except to keep them organized as I add more and more of them. I'm sure some people here do something similar.
yes I do the same and this returns us exactly to the point of the feature request as stated by everyone else, having menu support makes that activity easier as well as making MC more approachable. It also makes sense, to me anyway, from a marketing perspective (tick that checkbox).
I'm sure we are rehashing old ground at this point so I'll leave it at that.
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JRiver relies on external software for everything (Windows, Linux, Mac OS, LAV Filters, madVR, etc.). I'm not sure why the reliance on decryption software matters regarding having Blu-ray menu support.
You're being pedantic, calling the operating system "external software". But you are right that I've taken this discussion about menus and turned it into a discussion about playback of physical discs. Again, I think it's goofy. ...and yes, it's partly because it relies upon external software.
I want Blu-ray menu support for the ripped content and rarely need it for a rented movie.
So you rip to full ISOs then? Why would you do this to yourself? I think you're a big bluray music guy. Is that part of it? So you can have the original navigation to the songs, etc, without having to resort to externally splitting (or particlizing) the music video? I guess I understand that. I just hate menus on DVD and BD because they are generally simply in my way and slow everything down. But I only have a tiny collection of music from DVD and I've fully split and tagged all of it. So I have instant access always. I might feel differently if I had 100 music BDs.
For movies ISOs are just a step backwards for me. If you like them, more power to you. I just don't understand why, when MKVs have full quality and don't annoy you with infinite waiting for menus and forced trailers, etc.
I've been using a PC for media playback since 1989 and we used to only have discs. Streaming wasn't invented yet. 99.99% of my usage of JRiver has involved optical discs (CD, DVD, or Blu-ray).
Huh? I've ripped my own discs to my collection. I don't stream anything ever. I'm probably missing something here. Presumably you have ripped content from your CDs, DVDs, and BDs.
Brian.
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I have rips into iso format and also mkv, I have not ripped all my BD's and use MC to play the disc.
For playing only movie's (single disc) I would not need BD menus.
For series it is sometimes a real pain to find out the correct order of the episodes. That could be better.
UHD is only interesting if I could play commercial UHD discs. And I don't think I would like to rip them (60-100 GB/disc) ?
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FYI - libbluray (http://git.videolan.org/?p=libbluray.git) is part of what LAV (and hence MC) uses for it's Blu-ray handling. This is the library that has/is being updated to support BD Menus and UHD....IF players want to implement these options.
Hendrik would know but even with Menu info exposed by libbluray, I'd take it there is still a bit of work for the players to implement it in they way that they want.
...and another use case I forgot (added to my post)
- On Music BD you will be able to see the track list and song names
- You will see Chapter Names (I presume???)
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FYI - My workflow is:
1) Buy BD
2) Put in Drive running MC and AnyDVDHD
3) MC Pop Up asks to play / rip it (as an unencrypted folder structure), grabs the meta data coverart etc all in one go
How easy and simple is that :)
Anyone in my family could do that without me ... but
... without a menu you then need to manually explore, process and tag the content of the rip if you want to expose TV Episodes / Music Tracks / find alt endings / bonus stuff. That leaves only me. I've got '00s of disks and I still struggle to get it right all the time. There is even less chance of getting to your content if you race home with a new BD of you TV Show and try to do it from the actual disk!
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I agree, but unlike you, I am just too lazy/overwhelmed to even think about extracting or particalizing, etc. That is way too tough. Access to the BD menu would make the experience no worse than watching on a player, which most any idiot can do.
But, except for full, one disc BDs played on the fly by JR/AnyDVD, it is too tough now. I think going that way would be going in the direction of greater simplicity and ease of use to more people.
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So you rip to full ISOs then? Why would you do this to yourself? . . .
For movies ISOs are just a step backwards for me. If you like them, more power to you. I just don't understand why, when MKVs have full quality and don't annoy you with infinite waiting for menus and forced trailers, etc.
I don't rip to full ISO's. JRiver doesn't even do that. I usually only rip the main title. I (or anyone else in the family) can put the Blu-ray in and rip the main title only with JRiver and without any user intervention. It is nice to have the menu prior to ripping to see if I want anything else. If so, I adjust the settings in anyDVD. Even though I only have the main title having the menu makes things easier for some content (like a concert or calibration disc).
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So AnyDVD doesn't show BD menus? I assumed it was a bit more sophisticated than MakeMVK in that respect. What you're really saying is, you want a utility that might be a player or some other form of program that can help you identify the titles by using the BD menus. I want that too! So I can more easily rip what I want and ID it ahead of time.
I still don't think that's MC's job. If MC could do this cross platform, I'd certainly use it. But honestly, I think this isn't MC's "job". It's a job for an external tool. Just like ripping is a job for an external tool.
Brian.
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It's MC job to manage and play media. AnyDVDHD just removes the decryption so MC can access the content. So far MC can (with encrypted BD)
- Read a BD
- Copy a BD Sttructure to a HDD
- Play Content from the BD
What it can not do is bring up the BD Menu that is included of these disks. All the addition of BD Menu support will do is allow you to visualise and navigate the content on the BD.
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I just hate menus on DVD and BD because they are generally simply in my way and slow everything down.
I think we hit the crux of the issue for you here Brian. Sorry, but that is your problem, not ours.
Ripping the main title and saving it to the hard disk is all about just playing just the movie itself. It makes sense when that is all you want to do.
BD menu support is about browsing what is on the disc, exploring what is included, and deciding what should be permanently stored on the hard drive.
I don't like to do that with the optical disc, because it is slow, and menus are slow enough without adding optical disc reads, particularly with Blu-ray quality menu graphics. Not to mention that I have to use PowerDVD to do that, which means a totally different video and audio path for playback. The WDM is not the solution in this case, as it is too laggy and the movie quickly gets out of sync. I haven't set up any of the DSP that MC has in PowerDVD, including Room Correction. If I did all that in PowerDVD, why would I need MC for any BD playback? PowerDVD has pretty good media management these days. I might as well do all BD management in that. Oh yeah, and DVDs. Plus purchased digital movies, and... I don't like the PowerDVD interface and restrictions, jammed full of advertising and wasted space, which is why I have MC. I want a complete solution. A full ECO System one might say, even if it relies on some external software.
In fact I do not want to rip all movies I buy to the hard disk permanently. Many of the more obscure movies I would just like to make a record of it in MC so that I know it is available, and then leave it on the shelf in optical disc form, only. I rip new discs in full folder format, not ISO, and I want to be able to watch them using the BD menu. Then I will decide what to keep on the hard drives for long term use, convert it to a suitable form, probably MKV, and remove the rest.
So I want BD menu support for three reasons:
- To browse and view all contents of a new BD I purchase. Including all those annoying Trailers and advertisements, if they are a recent disc.
- To play BD that I decide not to store on the hard disk, and may require a refresh of my memory as to what else is on the disc.
- To go back to the optical disc of a movie I have on the hard drive, and watch for the first time or again the extras that I chose not to save to the hard drive. I often play just the movie early on and come back to the extras sometime later, but I don't want to keep the full BD on my hard drives for months or years, just in case I want to go back and review the extras.
Finally, leaving aside UHD BD, providing BD menus just completes the BD offering. Not providing it just leaves a big chunk missing. To me it feels like MC is broken. A crude tool that can't handle a very basic function; being able to see all the content on a disc. Sorry JRiver, but that is what it feels like, and that is one of the reasons that MC is a geeks tool, and not mainstream.
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...also from what I have read on how Kodi does it that bringing up the BD Menu is not a default behaviour. You can still just "play" a BD disc or structure and get the default playlist like it works now with MC without a menu but you can optionally bring up a BD Menu if you want. So you would get exactly how it works now but with the NEW availability to kick up the BD Menu when needed. Of course how the Player implements the use of the BD Menu would be up to the devs at MC (or other players).
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If JR decides to look at BD Menu support I'd suggest the following:
* Video Playback Option --> Show BD Menu on Playback --> Yes / No / Ask (like with resuming playback from bookmarks)
* Pressing the Menu Button brings up the BD Menu (like with DVD)
So the default would be the same as MC is now but you can bring up a BD Menu as desired or when needed.
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tl;dr: Brian thinks this is a waste of resources, but he's totally alone under the comfy rock where he lives.
Everyone else, please carry on with your discussion. :)
Brian.
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Most the time, I'm with you and hate the slowness/trailers. However, I'd still love the option to be able to navigate to deleted scenes / alternate endings (or get the right playlist for new releases).
-tm
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To Brian's point, it will come down to if JR thinks it is worth the time/effort to implement VS the other things on the ToDo list. I guess there is a fair bit of desire from those of us with BD Collections and I hope the effort to implement Menus is not too high with the recent work done on the underlying library..... but only JR can tell us if they think it is worth their time. I really hope so. I made the decision years ago to rip all my BD content and import into MC as full structures waiting for this day.
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This is great. Great points all round
Unfortunately until / unless (chrome)casting is supported I have no horse in the race
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once i have BD ... i rip it (mkv ... dont care much for extras) ... then watch with family
ripping is not always straight forward ... as ppl mention before, have to figure episode order then name accordingly
Animation is also pain ... some titles actually bother to have localised versions on same BD (newspaper titles or article that appear in animation is actually translated) ... go figure which one is english one (can ... but takes time and while figuring can get spoilers ... i usually skip to credits ... as localised versions usually have credits for translation)
for titles i own its not a problem
but if your friends come to party with BD ... and you tell them "let me rip it first" ... then party sort of slows down :/
While personally ... BD menus are not important for me (would be nice to have it though) ... i can see why people want it
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BD Menus: Why?
I usually rip all optical discs as soon as I get them these days, and watch the rip at my leisure. However, that leaves me without the opportunity to even see what extras are on the disc, let alone watch them. I usually just watch the main feature now, because that is all MC can do. I've never been big on watching extras, but alternate endings and versions, that I am interested in. A shame I don't know what I am missing.
Not to mention, I have to maintain a licence of some other software just in case I want to check out the menu at some time. Or if someone visiting wants to. If I have to watch BD with menus using other expensive software, and use the sound system that software provides, what is the point of having a Media Center? It is supposed to be an all in one solution, from my perspective.
The TV functionality in MC is pretty good now... just when Free To Air TV is on its way out, except for casual watching maybe. Streaming services will kill it, but not quite yet. The ability to schedule recordings of series and watch at a later time is what holds any consumer attention, from my perspective.
DVDs are fine, but don't offer the High Definition that current TVs can support. madVR and good upscaling still make them a good option for bargain bin entertainment, but I buy BDs these days.
Standard BDs are the next or current cheap HD entertainment medium. Not fully supporting them leaves a large gap in a Media Center solution. Full support means menus, or the equivalent of using a BD player, Amplifier, and TV.
UHD BDs are still the bleeding edge. Content is lacking, and they can only be played using hardware. Early adopters, or people who haven't yet committed to a solution, will buy the hardware and ignore Media Centers. With the DRM situation, it is understandable that JRiver can't support UHD BDs. But not supporting menus in standard BDs is less understandable.
Didn't someone say once: Any media, any time, any place?
exactly same with me. i would have a lot of re-ripping to iso to do but would gladly do it if menus worked. if kodi has done it then you have source code too.
i am skeptical however....
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Hendrik is pretty well involved with the code in these libraries and over the years has seen prior attempts that he did not think was up to scratch. If he says it is now achievable I'd believe him.
Also I don't see the benefit of ripping to ISO. I just let MC rip to folder structure (the default), it is easy and all the info is then accessible.
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Also I don't see the benefit of ripping to ISO. I just let MC rip to folder structure (the default), it is easy and all the info is then accessible.
ISO takes up less space, but yeah Full Folder Structure is generally less hassle.
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? the only time a folder structure takes up more space is on 3D Titles (almost 2x as both eye streams are stored separately). Apart from that they do not.
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? the only time a folder structure takes up more space is on 3D Titles (almost 2x as both eye streams are stored separately). Apart from that they do not.
I think they do, but anyway.
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OK - I'll test and report back
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Quick test on one disk. ISO rip = Folder Rip in size.
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I think that was my conclusion when I decided to use full folder rips as well. The size difference, if any, wasn't worth the complexity of using an ISO and having to mount it for playback. Plus I saw a speed difference in launching the video.
Does MC play ISO files without a third party mounting tool these days? I haven't checked, but last time I looked the Wiki suggested needing a tool to automatically mount the ISO.
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Quick test on one disk. ISO rip = Folder Rip in size.
Interesting, I don't understand how the ISO could actually be larger.
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Does MC play ISO files without a third party mounting tool these days? I haven't checked, but last time I looked the Wiki suggested needing a tool to automatically mount the ISO.
I think that's the go, although I've been wrong before.
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And like I said before, there's no way you can use JRiver MC with a video calibration disc such as Disney WOW for example.
They seem to have an enormous number of titles in scattered order.
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If I were to start ripping with menus, I'd use CloneBD so I can rip out the stuff I don't need and save me some room on the hard drive. You can keep the menus and nuke some of the titles/languages you don't want/need. I'd gladly re-rip my most watched library with menus if they became supported. 3D does take up more space if you rip to folder. It doesn't if you rip to MKV as frame packed which is great. I've not tested reauthoring one with CloneBD and keeping menus to see what the size is, but, I believe it can frame pack them so you'd not have to double the size. I could check.
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My understanding (from the anydvd forum) is with 3D the disk contains a virtual SSIF file that keeps the precision using pointers to the frames so they are displayed in the correct order for the two Left Right eye M2TS files. When you rip it to folder it becomes an actual file that is the same size as the two M2TS Files. So you end up with both 2 x M2TS Files and 1 combined SSIF.
Anyway..... For me I could not be bothered in editing down a BD to save some HDD space anymore. Simply put disk in PC (anydvd running in the background), let MC in one click rip (as a folder) / tag / coverart etc. Done. Everything is there ready for when MC lets us access it with a Menu. No re-ripping for me!
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My understanding (from the anydvd forum) is with 3D the disk contains a virtual SSIF file that keeps the precision using pointers to the frames so they are displayed in the correct in order for the two Left Right eye M2TS files. When you rip it to folder it becomes an actual file that is the same size as the two M2TS Files. So you end up with both 2 x M2TS Files and 1 combined SSIF.
Anyway..... For me I could not be bothered in editing down a BD to save some HDD space anymore. Simply put disk in PC (anydvd running in the background), let MC in one click rip (as a folder) / tag / coverart etc. Done. Everything is there ready for when MC lets us access it with a Menu. No re-ripping for me!
Thanks for the testing and explanation.
Yes I agree ISO just seems more trouble than it's worth.
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That works, jmone. Everyone does it their own way which is what makes MC so powerful. For me I've been a fan of MKV's for years now and almost always rip to MKV. However, I couldn't afford the amount of storage I'd need to rip my whole library. And my girlfriend wanted to watch a movie the other night that I didn't have ripped, so, I put the movie in and MC got the title wrong. I could have spent a few minutes finding the right track and all that, but, I've found it's wise not to screw around with tech when your girlfriend simply wants to watch a movie. LOL. Menu support would have avoided that situation. The MC user experience would be better, IMO, with menu support. Those who don't want it, don't need it, or couldn't care less....hey I get that. I'd rather have a function and not need it than need it and not have it. :D
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Spot on - It's about having the option.
It would also mean my family could just play all BD without me having to pre-process it. They tried to play new TV BD while I was away once and complained it only had one eps.
Your comment on Girlfriend reminds me of this old joke (http://www.ancients.info/forums/archive/index.php?t-616.html).
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Your comment on Girlfriend reminds me of this old joke (http://www.ancients.info/forums/archive/index.php?t-616.html).
Hilarious! Thanks. Spot on, too.
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LOL yea something like that :D
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And like I said before, there's no way you can use JRiver MC with a video calibration disc such as Disney WOW for example.
They seem to have an enormous number of titles in scattered order.
I use the Disney WOW disc just fine, but I know what you mean. I import the Stream folder into JRiver and create thumbnails. The thumbnails show you what every file is. You can delete the ones you don't need. You can also use Windows Explorer to create thumbnails to browse the disc. Other calibration discs are more difficult.
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BD menu playback would definitely be useful for concert blurays and demonstration discs. About the only reason I still have a Dune media player still
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Also I don't see the benefit of ripping to ISO. I just let MC rip to folder structure (the default), it is easy and all the info is then accessible.
AnyDVD offers some nice on-the-fly features with discs and mounted image files like removing/skipping trailers and annoying clips, PUO's, subtitle adjustments etc. You can't have those with a folder structure. I think technically it would be possible but it doesn't look like they are implementing it any time soon (they had some requests on their forums).
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I'm not sure of how the implementation works in Kodi but a quote from one of their users:
Menus are working.
Skips FBI warnings etc., but does show trailers and goes to Menu items as it should.
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That would be very nice. Very nice indeed.
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UHD BDs should get basic support in the next LAV update.
Thanks - UHD BD Structure playback using the LAV Nightlies work :)
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Interesting radio silence from the JR team in this thread...
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Interesting radio silence from the JR team in this thread...
Not really, we now have BD UHD Playback and discussion on the ripping side.
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Would be awesome if it does happen.
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Wow, this forum can be buggy.... a few posts just "disappeared", but oddly just the (joke) ones on BD Menu Support!
Not wanting to flog a dead horse, but any hints on where JR sits with the whole BD Menu support request;
- still thinking about it
- soonish
- maybe latter
- never
- why would we, it is a never ending source of fun watching the neophytes try to wrestle with physical media instead of downloads
Thanks
Nathan
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I've split out the posts on DeUHD to a new thread - UHD Blu Ray Decrypter (DeUHD) (https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,112653.0.html)
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Summary for this thread:
- Unencrypted UHD BD Playback support is now possible in MC (needs manual update from LAV Nightlies for now)
- Waiting to hear from JR about BD Menu support.
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I'm still a little confused. I get that the unencrypted discs will be playable in MC via the LAV nightlies but will LAV support 4k resolution, and HDR 10?
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I'm still a little confused. I get that the unencrypted discs will be playable in MC via the LAV nightlies but will LAV support 4k resolution, and HDR 10?
Red October HQ (madVR) supports HDR playback.
Red October Standard and HQ support 4K playback.
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Right but I'm asking more particularly about LAV
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4K and HDR10 is already supported in the LAV version which is included in MC today. HDR10 also requires madVR, which is included as part of RO HQ.
Once there is a new release version of LAV with UHD BD support included, it'll also be included in MC.
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Thats where I'm a little lost I think. When you say LAV will support UHD BD do you mean a certain file type (For example .bdmv)? If LAV natively supports HDR10 why is mad VR required in order to use it?
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Because LAV is a decoder and passes that information to madvr which is the renderer.
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Got it, thanks :)
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Also, while all these BD discs sort of have the same structures, there are differences between AVCHD, BD and UHD BD discs. If you look at the headers of the files that hold the meta data (bdmv, clpi, mpls) about what the disc is, you can see different values:
AVCHD : 0100 (I forget what AVCHD V2 is)
BD : 0200
UHD BD : 0300
At present if you try to play a UHD BD in MC you will get some oddness (stream names are Unknown etc) as it cannot parse the 0300 files correctly to get this info (even though the M2TS will play). The updated version does.
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Any decision on whether bd menus will be implemented?
Would be great for my concert and demo bd's.
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We're exploring our options, but its too soon to say either way. Once/If we have something to announce, you'll hear it here.
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;D - Thanks!
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Thanks Hendrik
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We're exploring our options, but its too soon to say either way. Once/If we have something to announce, you'll hear it here.
Times DO Change after all ;D
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,92141.msg634072.html#msg634072
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Summary for this thread:
- Unencrypted UHD BD Playback support is now possible in MC (needs manual update from LAV Nightlies for now)
- Waiting to hear from JR about BD Menu support.
FYI - Just noticed that the (unsupported) Latest LAV Nightlies / MC combo does not support Title Selection on UHD BD playback. I have one UHD BD when playing the rip I get the longer commentary stream not the main movie and there is no way in the GUI to change the Title as this option does not appear in the menu (not surprisingly you can also not create MPLS Title Particles either).
For now I've had to use the "Rename, Move, & Copy Files --> Find & Replace" to change the DB to point of the correct MPLS.
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Times DO Change after all ;D
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,92141.msg634072.html#msg634072
indeed they do
i could never get the menus working in kodi v18 and the support to do so was lacking.
likely had to do with which version of java8 (jdk vs jre) and setting up windows environment vars properly. gave up. will revisit later as it was not perfect and had reported issues
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It's all related to license fee after all. Simply, JRiver could not afford to do that. Free solutions? Well...
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Sure - https://www.videolan.org/developers/libbluray.html is an open sourced library for BD.
Freedom: libbluray is released under a Free Software license, LGPL, ensuring it will stay free.
Features: the library integrates navigation, playlist parsing, menus and BD-J.
Legal: libbluray is DRM-circumvention free, and thus, safe to integrate in your software.
LAV Filters (and hence MC) have been using libbluray for playback for ages. It now includes support for menus but it really is up to Hendrik to comment on how "good" it is for this, and how "well" it may integrate with MC.
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indeed they do
i could never get the menus working in kodi v18 and the support to do so was lacking.
likely had to do with which version of java8 (jdk vs jre) and setting up windows environment vars properly. gave up. will revisit later as it was not perfect and had reported issues
Had a play with BD Menus (both BDMV and Java) in VLC Nightlies (had to also install Java). It all seemed to work fine. I could browse the various menu options and play the content fine (tested on some Movies, TV Eps, Music Videos).
Thanks
Nathan
FYI - VLC did not play UHD BD and I did not try all that hard to find out why.
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Had a play with BD Menus (both BDMV and Java) in VLC Nightlies (had to also install Java). It all seemed to work fine. I could browse the various menu options and play the content fine (tested on some Movies, TV Eps, Music Videos).
Thanks
Nathan
FYI - VLC did not play UHD BD and I did not try all that hard to find out why.
can you tell me did you install the jre or jdk and what version of java?
also did you set up the windows environment vars, eg. JAVA_HOME, etc.... and what are their values?
i do want to try this again
cheers
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I first just installed Java from https://java.com/en/download/win10.jsp , but needed the 64-Bit version (as I had installed the 64-bit version of VLC) which I got from here - https://java.com/en/download/manual.jsp (jre-8u151-windows-x64)
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FYI, looks like we might get this in MC23:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,113637.msg785493.html#msg785493
-tm
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That would be awesome!