INTERACT FORUM
More => Old Versions => JRiver Media Center 26 for Windows => Topic started by: Mitchco on April 24, 2020, 02:10:42 pm
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I am a multichannel noob coming from too many years as a stereo geek, so not sure if this is the right forum or if it is even possible...
I see that https://codecguide.com/index.html (scroll down to Features) has DirectShow filters for audio/video and seems to be able to decode AC3, TrueHD, etc.
Since JRiver can use DirectShow filters (yes?) could these be installed and JRiver properly decode multichannel sound like AC3 and TrueHD?
Kind regards,
Mitch
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You don't need to install extra codecs for that. JRiver works out of the box.
Things work best if you set the JRiver Video Mode to Red October Standard, or Red October HQ.
See here:
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Red_October
JRiver can even play BluRay discs if you download and install MakeMKV and make sure MakeMKV's "Integration" options are all checked.
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Thanks, I saw that. But I did not see if it decodes Dolby Digital or TrueHD audio for multichannel surround? And what about Atmos? Maybe I am missing something?
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Atmos no, but you can bitstream it so your receiver can decode it. Everything else it can decode natively.
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I'm suddenly confused. I originally posted assuming you might be a prospective user, but I just noticed your profile that you've been using the software for 9 years and you're on the Beta team. I guess for me that doesn't compute with your not knowing if the software decodes multi-channel audio. Is someone else using Mitchco's forum account today? Anyway, it does. You can easily just try it, since you already have the software. Enjoy.
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@wer haha! Sorry for any confusion, as I said at the beginning of the post, I am a complete noob when it comes to multichannel sound as I don't have a multichannel system or AVR. And I have been trying to avoid receivers for years as I am only interested in computer audio. So I have been asleep for several years re: multi-channel audio.
Due to popular demand of room correction for multichannel sound is the reason why I am asking my noob multichannel questions :-) I have enough DAC channels, just need to scrape some amps/speakers together to give it a try as I don't recommend anything until I try for myself. So thanks for your assistance. Last question, and again, sorry if this is total noob, but the reason why no Atmos is?
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wer - you can learn more about mitchco's expertise at these sites. He is very well known on the various technical audio forums. Guys like Gordon Rankin, Charles Hansen, Tony Lauck, John Swenson contributed so much to the understanding of computer audio in the early days, especially on Audio Asylum and such sites. Mitchco was right in there with them, doing real measurements on real systems. Do different software players sound different? Do different usb cables matter? Do 16/44 and 24/192 sound different? How do varios DSD conversion programs compare? Mitchco was always doing real measurements on things like this. Even did an ebook on DSPs. Very highly respected by everyone.
https://audiophilestyle.com/blogs/blog/125-mitchcos-blog/
https://www.amazon.com/Mitch-Barnett/e/B071V4XF27/ref=ntt_dp_epwbk_0
Not surprised he did not have time to worry about the details of doing video with computer media players.
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but the reason why no Atmos is?
You'd have to ask JRiver. Probably licensing.
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@wer haha! Sorry for any confusion, as I said at the beginning of the post, I am a complete noob when it comes to multichannel sound as I don't have a multichannel system or AVR. And I have been trying to avoid receivers for years as I am only interested in computer audio. So I have been asleep for several years re: multi-channel audio.
Same here. No AVR but it works........except for Atmos and, I am guessing, because I have not yet tried, Auro3D.
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dtsx Atmos JRiver cannot decode object based metadata ... for DTSX and Atmos JRiver will only decode their base layer (HDMA/HRA and TrueHD/EAC respectively)
As mentioned - can bitstream to your receiver and let it decode Atmos/dtsx
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You'd have to ask JRiver. Probably licensing.
Wer was partially correct - Dolby Atmos only works, properly, on hardware that has an inbuilt Dolby Atmos Receiver.
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but the reason why no Atmos is?
Dolby. There is no public spec or open source decoder for it.
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Thanks @dtc. Cheers @Kal! Thanks ET and matt for answering my question.
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PS. It appears that Microsoft does provide API access to decode Dolby Atmos for Win32 apps and Windows Universal Apps:
https://developer.dolby.com/platforms/windows/dolby-atmos/implementation/
There is sample code for playing back Dolby Atmos Files for Universal Windows Applications:
https://github.com/DolbyDev/Universal_Windows_App
But given that JRiver is a Win32 app (yes?) it looks like it is possible for JRiver to decode Dolby Atmos using the Win32 API.
As a software developer, I have not had a chance to load the solution in Visual Studio to have a look or try it out or see what the effort might be, but looks interesting.
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seems to be about authoring atmos rather than decoding a commercial atmos track unfortunately
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seems to be about authoring atmos rather than decoding a commercial atmos track unfortunately
That is correct. Those APIs are for games etc to output spatial audio to your audio system, and not for handling already encoded Atmos audio.
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Hey guys, did you download and run the Visual Studio sample code for playing back Dolby Atmos Files for Universal Windows Applications?
It plays Dolby Atmos files as I am running the code sample now. See attached screen shot. It uses the same files from: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dolby-atmos-trailers.html
It looks like the code sample is using https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/win32/medfound/dolby-audio-decoder?redirectedfrom=MSDN
Maybe I am misunderstanding?
Kind regards,
Mitch
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That code claims this:
"The Dolby audio decoder is a Media Foundation transform (MFT) that decodes the following stream types:
Dolby Digital, also called Dolby AC-3
Dolby Digital Plus, also called Enhanced AC-3 (E-AC-3)"
It does not claim to decode Atmos.
It's probably playing the base layer. Atmos tracks often have a base layer embedded for compatibility. Dolby TrueHD does the same thing; TrueHD audio tracks have an embedded Dolby Digital base layer that can be played by devices that can't play TrueHD.
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Even if you could decode Atmos/DTSX you need 8 channel sound card for 5.1.2 and 10 channels for 7.1.2 ... and corresponding channel amp
Isn’t it simpler and cheaper to just buy Atmos receiver?
Decoding 7.1 makes sense as you can “down mix” it to 5.1 or 2.1 ... but there is not much point downmixing height channels to normal channels (or is there?)
Just curious
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Dolby TrueHD does the same thing; TrueHD audio tracks have an embedded Dolby Digital base layer that can be played by devices that can't play TrueHD.
I don’t think TrueHD has AC3 “embedded” into it. I recall it’s a separate track. BD disk somehow wrap TrueHD and AC3 together so it looks like one track. But you need to rip AC3 as separate track in mkv if you want it
DTSHDMA DTSHRA on the other hand do have DTS truly embedded into them
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That code claims this:
"The Dolby audio decoder is a Media Foundation transform (MFT) that decodes the following stream types:
Dolby Digital, also called Dolby AC-3
Dolby Digital Plus, also called Enhanced AC-3 (E-AC-3)"
It does not claim to decode Atmos.
It's probably playing the base layer. Atmos tracks often have a base layer embedded for compatibility. Dolby TrueHD does the same thing; TrueHD audio tracks have an embedded Dolby Digital base layer that can be played by devices that can't play TrueHD.
Thanks. Not to be argumentative, but the downloadable code sample does decode Dolby Atmos:
[assembly: AssemblyTitle("Dolby Atmos® media player demo")]
[assembly: AssemblyDescription("A Universal Windows Platform application")]
[assembly: AssemblyConfiguration("")]
[assembly: AssemblyCompany("Dolby Laboratories, Inc.")]
[assembly: AssemblyProduct("Dolby Atmos® media player demo")]
[assembly: AssemblyCopyright("Copyright © 2017 Dolby Laboratories, Inc.")]
[assembly: AssemblyTrademark("")]
[assembly: AssemblyCulture("")]
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Even if you could decode Atmos/DTSX you need 8 channel sound card for 5.1.2 and 10 channels for 7.1.2 ... and corresponding channel amp
Isn’t it simpler and cheaper to just buy Atmos receiver?
Decoding 7.1 makes sense as you can “down mix” it to 5.1 or 2.1 ... but there is not much point downmixing height channels to normal channels (or is there?)
Just curious
Yes, folks have 16 channel sound cards. Applying software based digital room correction using JRiver's convolution engine is the request. Again, because of being 40 years under the 2 channel rock, decoding multichannel audio is new to me and specifically the ask for Atmos is the reason for my posts... Maybe there is an easier way to do it and meet the requirement?
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Thanks. Not to be argumentative, but the downloadable code sample does decode Dolby Atmos:
I guess the argument is with the spec. I read the document you linked to, that you said was relevant to your code sample. There's a disconnect between spec in that that document and your subsequent copy/paste from the sample.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/win32/medfound/dolby-audio-decoder?redirectedfrom=MSDN
Dolby has a software product, for Mac, called the Dolby Media Producer Suite, that lets you encode and decode Atmos. You might be interested in that.
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Thanks again. There does appear to be some discrepancy in the spec. I was just following through from:
https://developer.dolby.com/platforms/windows/dolby-atmos/overview/
"As a Windows® 10 developer, you can now include one of the world’s most advanced, recognizable, and trusted entertainment experiences in your universal applications and web experiences. You’re in a unique position to utilize our next-generation Dolby Atmos® technology which is included in every x86 Windows 10 desktop PC and tablet. This means you simply need to include encoded content in your Windows application or HTML 5 web app, and the Windows 10 operating system will decode that content providing the best enveloping experience for your customer."
And if you follow the link tree to the MSDN references and then the source code example, which says it does decode Atmos and according to Dolby, every Win10 PC is supposed to be able to playback Atmos...
I find it rather confusing, hence reaching out here as you have pointed out, I am a long time JRiver fan.
Yes, I already have a mail into Dolby about the suite, but again, I am just interested in Atmos playback and according to Dolby, it seems to be available on every Win 10 OS...
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The Microsoft decoder does not support TrueHD+Atmos, the most common type, as its found on Blu-ray disc. E-AC3 (also known as Dolby Digital Plus) + Atmos is relatively rare, only used by a few streaming services - which don't let you play through MC anyway. Technically it can also be on Blu-ray, but thats rather uncommon, and personally I would feel cheated to get a lossy audio and then Atmos, rather get lossless audio with Atmos on something like a Blu-ray.
Furthermore, Media Center is not a "Universal" application. That Dolby sample uses some black-box media control, you wouldn't like if we used something like that, as its the end of the MC flexibility.
Additional, as pointed out in the very first post in this thread, Media Center uses DirectShow, these codecs linked above are for MediaFoundation (and its really not quite clear how you would even get them to do anything with the Atmos data)
As far as I could determine, these codecs also support Atmos only in two modes: Bitstream HDMI mode, or Atmos for Headphones. I have yet to see a decoder that could just output a bunch of PCM over the standard 5.1/7.1 channel.
A full Atmos-capable output setup on a PC with 12 or 16 channel, without a Atmos-capable receiver, is just not a design goal for Dolby or Microsoft - which is understandable, since thats a lot of extra work for mixing and output, and no ordinary consumer has such a setup.
Its also important to know that "Atmos" is not one single thing. Dolby uses that name for an entire family of audio technology. A Game that wants to render 3D audio? Atmos. Spatial audio on a Blu-ray? Atmos. Audio in Cinemas? Atmos. All very different technologies.
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Thanks Hendrik for taking the time and effort with your comprehensive answer.
Kind regards,
Mitch
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I would be happy to use an Atmos decoder if someone were to hand me one free to use, that can actually give me PCM data for further processing and output... :)
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The Microsoft decoder does not support TrueHD+Atmos, the most common type, as its found on Blu-ray disc. E-AC3 (also known as Dolby Digital Plus) + Atmos is relatively rare, only used by a few streaming services - which don't let you play through MC anyway. Technically it can also be on Blu-ray, but thats rather uncommon, and personally I would feel cheated to get a lossy audio and then Atmos, rather get lossless audio with Atmos on something like a Blu-ray.
Furthermore, Media Center is not a "Universal" application. That Dolby sample uses some black-box media control, you wouldn't like if we used something like that, as its the end of the MC flexibility.
Additional, as pointed out in the very first post in this thread, Media Center uses DirectShow, these codecs linked above are for MediaFoundation (and its really not quite clear how you would even get them to do anything with the Atmos data)
As far as I could determine, these codecs also support Atmos only in two modes: Bitstream HDMI mode, or Atmos for Headphones. I have yet to see a decoder that could just output a bunch of PCM over the standard 5.1/7.1 channel.
A full Atmos-capable output setup on a PC with 12 or 16 channel, without a Atmos-capable receiver, is just not a design goal for Dolby or Microsoft - which is understandable, since thats a lot of extra work for mixing and output, and no ordinary consumer has such a setup.
Its also important to know that "Atmos" is not one single thing. Dolby uses that name for an entire family of audio technology. A Game that wants to render 3D audio? Atmos. Spatial audio on a Blu-ray? Atmos. Audio in Cinemas? Atmos. All very different technologies.
So I'm late to the party and may not have the same interest as the OP, but arrived here by searching for "Spatial Audio" on the forum.
As I am developing up/remix techniques for stereo and/or 4.0. 5.1, 7.1 to 7.1.4
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/immersive-upmixing-utilizing-drum-source-separation-and-specweb.29089/
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/threads/5-1-to-7-1-4-source-separation-remixing.29257/
I've identified that there is a real gap in end users being able to playback their own immersive (12 or more channel) content, short of buying a DTS:X or Dolby Atmos encoder, which only run on Macs.
Those encoders are:
a) More than $1K each
b) Only run on Mac
c) In the case of Atmos, also depend on ProTools, which is also thousands of dollars
On the user side the barriers are:
i) Most people don't have an audio interface with 12 channels
ii) Most Home Theater units don't have more than 8 analog inputs
iii) HDMI (latest) specs support more that 8 channels, but to my knowledge no one has provided a driver that supports more than 8 channels, or a Home Theater unit that would support more than 8 channels via HDMI (unless DTS:X or Dolby Atmos encoded).
So, at least on Windows 10 the existence of the on the fly Windows Sonic to Dolby Atmos encoder seems like the only solution an I'm really wishing someone would create a driver for a player like JRiver or foobar2000 that supported it.
to date I did talk one person into writing something but it is by no means a full featured player like JRiver, etc.:
https://sourceforge.net/p/playpcmwin/wiki/WWSpatialAudioPlayer/
Is there any path that JRiver on Windows could support 12ch wav or wavpack playback via Windows Sonic --> Dolby Atmos?
A special driver?
A plugin?
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/coreaudio/spatial-sound